Sidious owns the Confederacy?

Originally posted by Tangible God
Dead on.

Thanks. Anyways, Overlord. I could take the time for my rebuttle. But considering how it would only urge you further in your accusations, just let me end it with this.

This isn't about the superiority of Count Dooku or the Emperor. This is about who leads what. Sidious had an iron grip over the Republic and the CIS. He operated through Count Dooku. It was on Sidious's orders that the Confederacy was ever established anyway. If I recall, two months after the Battle of Geonosis, Dooku revealed to the Council that he answered to a superior, and introduced them to Darth Sidious, and said that he was the true power behind the Confederacy. The important information is that Count Dooku, General Grievous, Nute Gunray, and the others all obeyed Sidious. The chain of command was Dooku, then Grievous, then Gunray and the others. But they all obeyed Sidious. If this is the case, they are simply following the chain of command. The Secretary of Defense is still beneath the Vice President in the American Chain of Command, and will take orders from him, but the Vice President's authority is superceded by the President himself, whom both take orders from. A real life analogy to compare this sort of situation to. Sidious, ultimately, controlled and directed the movements of the Confederacy.

Count Dooku was powerful, we know. We also know he has an immensely strong will and was very intelligent. But the point is this: he served Sidious. He addressed the Emperor as his "master". Furthermore, Sidious wasn't just Dooku's mentor. This relationship was a subserviant one. Dooku was a placeholder. He was a minion, in essence. Despite all of his wealth, power, and prestige, he served the Emperor. Not took advice and suggestions. You ought to know it. Even Sorgo admits that Count Dooku did indeed serve and obey Sidious.

Sorgo, Sidious - despite his Force mastery - is still, physically, an old man. He couldn't have broken out of Vader's grip, considering Vader is (I reiterate) incredibly strong.

Indeed, but he was one of the most powerful Force Users around... Actually, in the OT, he was the most powerful Force User around. He could have improvised something.

Overlord, Count Dooku does have a will. But he obeys his master. Sidious is his master. Not his mentor. Not his pal. Not his chum. Sidious is boss, and Dooku does what the boss says. It isn't like Dooku is taking requests. He's taking orders.

^ Wrong. I realize the Irony of the following statement: Sidious had friendships with his Apprentices. Even in ROTJ, when he is walking with Vader:

The Emperor: Rise my friend.
Darth Vader: The Death Star will be completed on schedule.
The Emperor: You've done well, Lord Vader. And now I sense you wish to continue your search for young Skywalker.
Darth Vader: Yes, my Master.
The Emperor: Patience my friend. In time he will seek *you* out, and when he does, you must bring him before me. He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the Dark Side of the Force.
Darth Vader: As you wish.
The Emperor: Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.

Here is what happens if Sidious were to not be his friend or pal, but just throw orders.

The Emperor: Rise.
Darth Vader: The Death Star will be completed on schedule.
The Emperor: Good. Are you still looking for your Kid?
Darth Vader: Yes, my Master.
The Emperor: Patience. He will seek you out and you WILL bring him to me and then together we will turn him. Understand?
Darth Vader: As you wish.
The Emperor: Everything is going as I have foreseen except for the fact i'm gonna die fairly soon.
Darth Vader: What was the last bit?
The Emperor: Nothing of importance....

He calls him a friend. Of course he has to hand out Orders as the boss but i'm fairly sure they had a fine relationship that wasn't too linear in being strictly orderary.

Call me a fanboy. That's fine. I'd have the guts to admit it if I were. There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy, in my opinion, other than the horrendous reputation they get. At least Sorgo has moments where he listens to logic. But I will continue to defend Sidious until he is placed on the exact level he should be. Just like if Yoda or Dooku or Mace had the public opinion that Sidious gets, I'd be out there defending them too. Fortunately, all three are held in high esteem around here.

Yoda? Held in high esteem?

He is the most powerful entity in the PT Series and possibly in the OT series as well.

Not to mention he possibly had a winning side on their fight, But that's arguable.

Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, sure it is important to me.. You see that only because it is the case with yourself. Don't deny that you are taking this small topic incredibly serious.

And don't worry about your fanboyism. Remember: I only said your constant Sidious talk was beginning to get annoying, yet you immediately take it to another level.

And you can stop using the exact same argument you have been using in this entire thread. You are implying that Sidious has Dooku as a slave with your definition of master. Dooku is an age old veteran and tutor himself, he is willing to accept training from Sidious all because of his own greed. Do you think Sidious disciplined Dooku? I don't think so. This Dooku's pride is too much on his own as he himself has been a tutor and 'master' of Makashi. He only goes and study under Sidious through greed.
As for ruling the confederacy.. Officially he rules it and even in his own right does he rule it. Just because Sidious is a threatening presence and a man who Dooku would consider equal doesn't mean that Sidious owns him. I still believe Sidious is just an adviser and manipulative power in ruling the confederacy. Your single repeated argument doesn't convince me otherwise.

Now I can understand that you still can't understand where I am coming from but heck, cut the Sidious owning Dooku crap.. We know this opinion of yours now and it isn't very constructive in my opinion.
Just because Sidious outwitted Dooku and manipulated him in more than Dooku could have ever known doesn't mean that Sidious automatically own Dooku as some puppet.
It may seem like this but it is logical to say that it isn't.

Oh yeah.. And just cut the arrogant nonsense with "I'll make you eat your words", just because you actually have a mind doesn't mean I'm impressed.

Sidious didn't own Dooku? Proposterous!

Sidious OWNED Dooku. Dooku WAS Sidious' puppet. Dooku was expendable, and got expended on Episode III. He didn't expect to be expendable or manipulated OR betrayed by Sidious. Just as Sidious didn't expect Vader to kill him. Dooku honestly didn't care. He loved where he was. He was Richer than a mother f*cker, he owned the Confederacy, he could have tooled people left and right, he was a POWERFUL man and he had a f*ckin' Job working for Sidious. He liked where he was. He didn't care that he had a Master. I am sure he was happy to have someone around to give him a Job and teach him the Dark and powerful ways of the dark side. But the direct point is that Sidious did indeed own Dooku. He owned everyone in the damned PT... And in the OT, he literally owned everyone because he was the Owner of...

Drum roll

THE DAMN GALAXY!

Dooku loved his position and didn't have a problem working for Sidious but whether he knew it or not: Sidious owned him and everyone else.

I'll just leave this in the hands of Sorgo if Escape will only focus on me being annoyed by his Sidious obsessing.

Escape has already said it: "Sidious works through Dooku" but instead of Dooku being a mindless puppet, Sidious just decieved and manipulated to work out his plans. Dooku still did what he thought was right but Sidious influenced him in a way he couldn't have predicted.
I think the Dooku vs Sidious battle is very cute but we can't go to the extreme that Sidious has Dooku as slave.

Sidious manipulated Anakin to the dark side and he manipulated Dooku to work out his other plans and to even go as far as killing Dooku for them.
Dooku just didn't know about all factors of Sidious' plans and agreed unknowingly.. That's it.
Sidious actually isn't the master to Dooku, only the mentor.

Sorry, Escape.. But this little aspect of the Sidious/Dooku war is leaning towards Dooku. 😬
But not to worry because I am sure the war is still far from over..

And if you still don't understand then just ask yourself to why this little aspect is just so important to you.
Because I sure as hell am not biased in this thread as you actually insinuated previously.

Originally posted by overlord
I'll just leave this in the hands of Sorgo if Escape will only focus on me being annoyed by his Sidious obsessing.

Escape has already said it: "Sidious works through Dooku" but instead of Dooku being a mindless puppet, Sidious just decieved and manipulated to work out his plans. Dooku still did what he thought was right but Sidious influenced him in a way he couldn't have predicted.
I think the Dooku vs Sidious battle is very cute but we can't go to the extreme that Sidious has Dooku as slave.

Sidious manipulated Anakin to the dark side and he manipulated Dooku to work out his other plans and to even go as far as killing Dooku for them.
Dooku just didn't know about all factors of Sidious' plans and agreed unknowingly.. That's it.
Sidious actually isn't the master to Dooku, only the mentor.

Sorry, Escape.. But this little aspect of the Sidious/Dooku war is leaning towards Dooku. 😬
But not to worry because I am sure the war is still far from over..

And if you still don't understand then just ask yourself to why this little aspect is just so important to you.
Because I sure as hell am not biased in this thread as you actually insinuated previously.

Lmfao. I think every time I counter your arguments, you claim that I have an obsession with the Emperor. So, lol. I'll just direct you to the post above, to Sorgo.

If you wanna go toe-to-toe with me, Overlord, you're going to have to have more skill in your arsenal. No offense, but each and every time, I use logic that negates all of your points - so then you say I have a Sidious obsession. Notice a pattern? When you think you can have a mature debate with me, lol, we'll talk. But until then, just go on and ramble whatever you want. 😉

All I see from you is some bluffing and focusing on my 'being annoyed' with your Sidious obsession. But don't worry.. I see you have bettered yourself with that.
Though you may use your Sids avathar again instead of some default one.
I guess I influenced you or something with your sudden anti Sidious posts too.. OMG! That must mean that I rule your too!

To add something to the thread again: (couldn't resist) I think that if Sidious already bossed his apprentices around without logic instead of discipline them that that would be more with Anakin than Dooku. Anakin really obeys at times but Dooku himself is already a proud and respectable man. Dooku really did lead the confederacy as he was a politically minded person and he actually really did dissagree with the way the universe was ruled. I don't get why you can't understand that he isn't somebody who just sits around passing around orders from Sidious.

But you can just keep posting stubbornly by making arrogant statements and keep using one single argument wich has been replied to for more than fifty times but ignored every time by you.

Don't accuse me of what you are doing now.

I can't believe people are agruing about who owned the Confederacy when it was only around for 3 years.

Originally posted by Shadow x 20
I can't believe people are agruing about who owned the Confederacy when it was only around for 3 years.

Lmao. Each time I make a counter to Overlord's little posts, he calls me a Sidious fanboy.

Oh, and Overlord. As I said, I've been honest about Sidious's level of power for quite some time. You've actually influenced nothing. Only in your little mind.

One could easily accuse you of arrogance, as well. 😉

Oh, but simply because I know how you're going to respond, I'll do the mature thing and I hope you can compensate.

So let us begin.

1. Firstly, Count Dooku was not a mindless slave. I never, once, accused him of being that way. Dooku is exceptionally clever, and was a gifted political idealist. But he was Sidious's apprentice. You know how certain words (ie: "my friend"😉 identify a relationship? It does the same here. Dooku, on various occasions, addressed Sidious as "Master". I don't know about you, but I don't address my mentor as "master". I don't take orders from my mentor. Sidious was more than a mentor to Dooku. He was his master, else he would not address the Dark Lord as such. Deal with it. Sidious was his master. Dooku was the apprentice and he obeyed all of Sidious's commands.

2. Secondly, Vader has proven to be more rebellious than Dooku. Vader has strong will himself, and disobeyed Sidious before, but was berated and punished. It is in Vader's nature to be the rebel. Dooku had the rebellious nature, but to a far lesser degree. Like Maul before him, Dooku was a subordinate. He did not work for Sidious. He didn't receive pay. Dooku was Sidious's apprentice, and though he wasn't a slave - he did not disobey his master's orders. Thus, Sidious reigned over Dooku.

3. Count Dooku disagreed with the way the Republic ruled. Not with the way Sidious ruled. Only when he was embraced by the Dark Side, was he made aware of Sidious's intent. So he agreed. But he did not disagree with his master, much. Only respectfully.

4. I reiterate. Publicly, Count Dooku led the Confederacy. But ultimately, the orders came from Sidious. As Ush said. All of the leaders obeyed Sidious, thus the true command was with Sidious. Sorry, if you can't accept that.

Originally posted by Escape81
[B]Oh, but simply because I know how you're going to respond, I'll do the mature thing and I hope you can compensate.

So let us begin.

1. Firstly, Count Dooku was not a mindless slave. I never, once, accused him of being that way. Dooku is exceptionally clever, and was a gifted political idealist. But he was Sidious's apprentice. You know how certain words (ie: "my friend"😉 identify a relationship? It does the same here. Dooku, on various occasions, addressed Sidious as "Master". I don't know about you, but I don't address my mentor as "master". I don't take orders from my mentor. Sidious was more than a mentor to Dooku. He was his master, else he would not address the Dark Lord as such. Deal with it. Sidious was his master. Dooku was the apprentice and he obeyed all of Sidious's commands.

2. Secondly, Vader has proven to be more rebellious than Dooku. Vader has strong will himself, and disobeyed Sidious before, but was berated and punished. It is in Vader's nature to be the rebel. Dooku had the rebellious nature, but to a far lesser degree. Like Maul before him, Dooku was a subordinate. He did not work for Sidious. He didn't receive pay. Dooku was Sidious's apprentice, and though he wasn't a slave - he did not disobey his master's orders. Thus, Sidious reigned over Dooku.

3. Count Dooku disagreed with the way the Republic ruled. Not with the way Sidious ruled. Only when he was embraced by the Dark Side, was he made aware of Sidious's intent. So he agreed. But he did not disagree with his master, much. Only respectfully.

4. I reiterate. Publicly, Count Dooku led the Confederacy. But ultimately, the orders came from Sidious. As Ush said. All of the leaders obeyed Sidious, thus the true command was with Sidious. Sorry, if you can't accept that.

But if everything would have worked out then Sidious would have definately ruled the universe with Dooku below him. But Dooku would have had a lot more political influence than Anakin would have ever had and therefor Dooku agreed with the grand plot.
But at the time being; it was still Sidious who held the republic and Dooku who owned the confederacy.

Now overall.. You may think that my answers are simple. But just consider that you may indeed be wrong and that the answer is just plain simple.

I have considered the possibility.

Sidious didn't give advice. He issued commands.

You would like to assume that he commanded Dooku don't you?

As for your incredible discussing skills.. I think you are just being stubborn to win this little battle hence why you change discussion style and ignore almost every point again. I should probably let Sorgo continue this as I am not really impressed by the few points stated once in a while.

When a Private takes orders from a Corporal, that means the Corporal is in command.

When the Corporal takes orders from a Sargeant, that means the Sargeant is in command.

When the Sargeant takes orders from Colonel, that means the Colonel is in command.

When Dooku, Grievous, and the Separtist Council takes orders from Sidious, that means Sidious is in command.

Yeah, well you obvious haven't read any arguments to the contrary so your post will just be ignored.

Like hell I'm reading all those.

Interesting that everyone, aside from Sorgo, has agreed with me, Overlord. Maybe I'm not the one who's wrong after all . . . 🙄

Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, well you obvious haven't read any arguments to the contrary so your post will just be ignored.

Oh, and who are you to decide what posts shall be ignored and what posts shall not be ignored? Lol, it would seem that my arrogance has rubbed off on you.

Hypocrite. Lmao.

Dooku was the Leader of the Army. Sidious was not. Sidious owned the Leader of that army so he had say. If Sidious did not have power over Dooku, it would be Dooku's Army, do you understand?

I have heard in no Book, No movie, not from Lucas or from a Databank that Sidious is an OFFICIAL LEADER of the CIS.

Sidious OWNED Dooku who OWNED the Army. Get it? So Sidious had say, but it was Dooku's bloody army.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying Sorgo, but does that really matter? I mean, I think everyone knows (as you stated) that Sidious owned the leader of the army (Dooku). So what signifigance does the fact that Dooku held control over the army have, when Sidious indirectly had control of it AND Dooku.

Don't get me wrong, I fully know that Dooku was the leader of the army, but if Sidious wanted anything done with that army, it would happen. Dooku, in my opinion, merely a pawn in Palpatine's plan. Him owning the army doesn't really have any relevance, considering that he would mostly do just what Sidious wanted. Again, I don't want to be misunderstood though; Dooku is an awesome character and I like him a lot, but does this topic merit a thread?

If you were just trying to point out to the noobs, however, that Dooku did, in fact, own the CIS, then I guess I see the point.

*reads through*

Sorgo, you seemed to have completely changed your point. 😑