The Ancient Sith Empire vs. The Yuuzhan Vong

And you'll notice that Ragnos is in NO FREAKING WAY stronger than Luke. Luke's NJO stats are one detail, RPG stats matter in no way to the story's another thing0I could provide numerous examples there, numerous.-And Luke is called in no uncertain terms the strongest Force User. Hell, Luceno said that's what he was striving for. They even got the go ahead from Lucas for that-this being in SW Insider.

The RPG stats are Lucas approved. Wanna argue them ? I hate WotC for creating them but you use things from WotC to back up your arguments and so you have to accept that other people do that too which means that a living Ragnos would be more powerful than NJO Luke.

And "the strongest force user" ? Ever ? Alive at that time ? The strongest Jedi ? And Lucas gave his "go ahead" to stuff like the CW cartoons and the WotC RPG either. Do you realize how less he actually cares about the EU since it doesn't affect his "movie universe" ?

1. Masters? Memit was hardly even a knight and he killed the Sith Lord Sadow put in charge of invading Coruscant.

2. Well, considering they depend on it completely and utterly....yeah, they'd panic more than a bit.

3. According to the EU, Sidious had the frameworks for the other one in construction already. Took him twenty or so years just to make one. And the Ancient Sith-with FAR inferior technology to Palpatine-have no time at all...and Star Forge? Rakta's nowhere near Ziost.

4. Lumiya's only been on Ziost and Korriban, getting training from the Ancients. And Denau Ku kept himself alive with nothing more than willpower to kill Viqi Shesh after being impaled with.....three feet of steel. And Anakin's hatred for Obi-wan did wonders for him. Or Onimi who kept himself alive through hatred for the Gods.

5. Gee, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING maybe? Since darkside abilities are shown to not make a dent in the Vong, illusions won't have any effect on Vong psychology...What part of 'can't be directly affected in the Force' is hard to get here? and 10s of thousands? Which is why we saw....six Jedi fighting Sadow's glorious invasion force and doing a hell of a job of it. And Sadow'd need to concentrate to create any sort of illusion. The Vong'll notice him kneeling...and vong tend to not be intimidated no matter the odds.

6. And Sylvar ever showed herself to be anything special whatsoever?

7. One of those sabers Vima da-Boda gave Luke was a relic from Ossus we saw Ood Bnar burying....he said, and I quote, "Some of the first the ORder ever created." And the first Great Schism was Xendor's. The second was the Hundred year Darkness in 7000 BBY. I don't like it either, but it's in the continuity.

And Luke as the best fighter? Yes.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lomi and Welk were quite noticeably using amplifications to their own weapons and killing Voxyn with the Force. And the book said, in no uncertain terms that it was impossible to use force lightning on Vong-doesn't take much to use Force Lightning, Quinlan Vos did it out of simple anger- or telekinisis on him.

When did it ever say that. If you can't provide a page number, this it is unproven and can be disreguarded as BS.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Unless Tsavong'd be fighting them in an office-Jacen had a MASSIVE advantage in that fight: The Force itself was literally guiding him- and he's fighting enemies the Force'd favor...I also doubt in a big fight like that, there'd be an open window....Vong take to smack very heavily and small projectiles out of the air easily and respond with razor and thud bugs...and they HEAVILY outnumber the Sith.

Now, because we saw what Mace did in the CW with his surroundings and the force. CW characters can't really do that, but Ancient Sith were plenty strong enough. A grain of sand propelled to five thousands miles per hour will cut you in half, Vong or not.

Also note that the Sith can control the water in the Yuuzhan Vong body. They can pick them up by the water in their bodies and throw them hundreds of feet into the air. Instant death.

Note that the force guides all living beings, Jacen just did it to a very high, but not unheard of, level.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And you'll notice that Ragnos is in NO FREAKING WAY stronger than Luke. Luke's NJO stats are one detail, RPG stats matter in no way to the story's another thing0I could provide numerous examples there, numerous.-And Luke is called in no uncertain terms the strongest Force User. Hell, Luceno said that's what he was striving for. They even got the go ahead from Lucas for that-this being in SW Insider.

Please stop acting like you have talked to the authors. No one wants to hear you BS false quotes because you are lying, or at least effectively lying, until you can provide an official source that shows exactly what you have said that the author said. I want the exact SW Insider issue it was said it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Darkstar, I respect you heavily, but have you ever read on Luke's strength? What so called powers did Ragnos use? Luke wouldn't know of them? Luke has holocrons dating back to the Ancient Empire-Andeddu? Vodo Baas? among others. Luke crushed DE era Sidious and that was well over thirty years away from Legacy of the Force, where Luke has achieved a level much higher than any other in the galaxy. Hell, it's even been hinted Luke will be cleaning up the Ancients on Korriban

Hinted at, but unproven. Untill then, besides the fact that the Ancients are all dead, Luke hasn't been cleaning them up, nor will he be.

Thankyou for dodgin my arguements on this. Post-Ancient Sith wore armor. His clothes don't mean he was a Sith from Ancient times. The fact that his name is Darth Andeddu means after Darth Bane, thousands of years after the Ancients.

Luke learned little from Vodo's holocron as he only had it for a few months before Exar destroyed it.

Prove that Luke has achieved this super-high level of force mastery with official sources. You quote a book, you give a page number. You use a picture from a book, you scan it. You quote an author, you show the official source that you got the quote from. You quote an official site, you give the page number. Until then your arguments are worthless.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The RPG stats are Lucas approved. Wanna argue them ? I hate WotC for creating them but you use things from WotC to back up your arguments and so you have to accept that other people do that too which means that a living Ragnos would be more powerful than NJO Luke.

And "the strongest force user" ? Ever ? Alive at that time ? The strongest Jedi ? And Lucas gave his "go ahead" to stuff like the CW cartoons and the WotC RPG either. Do you realize how less he actually cares about the EU since it doesn't affect his "movie universe" ?

I don't use WOTC RPG stats. And Lucas approved? Which is why they have a disclaimer in the opening covers? The story stuff is in the continuity, stats are not....otherwhise Crado has great dexterity than DE Luke.

And yeah, Ever. And Lucas actually gave QUITE the damn about Luke, his power and constant survival. Lucas gave his go ahead to the Tales books as well, most of which are apocrpyha

Crack open Edge of Victory and read to where just before that little Twi'lek is tortured to death. And unlike you, I can at least provide sources for my arguments, Glentract.

And this 'grain of sand' will be launched how exactly? When did the Sith ever display that precision or patience? And water in the Vong bodies? Your turn for a soruce. Please, if it were that easy the Jedi'd have crushed them long before hand.

Which is why Jacen is described as a living conduit and connected completely to the Force? Why Onimi becomes as insignificant as a bug?

And lying? That's funny, considering you've never provided a single source for your arguments. Anything to say about that SW.com link, Glentract?

And yeah, all DARTHS came after Bane...like Revan. And Malak. And Rivan. And Traya...Name ONE Bane era Sith who wore armor like that. Just one. Who was entombed on Korriban and had a Holocron.

Fine. NJO sourcebook for Luke. Read it and find it yourself. I love it when I get called a liar by people who consistently rehash arguments. Name a single feat that even compares to what Luke does. And by the by: Considering you tried to claim Anakin Solo helped Luke against Palpatine, you shouldn't talk.

And exar destroyed BODO Baas's Holocron...two entirely different people right there.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Masters? Memit was hardly even a knight and he killed the Sith Lord Sadow put in charge of invading Coruscant.

As I said the "position" of a force user doens't say something about his actual force power or lightsaber abilities...

2. Well, considering they depend on it completely and utterly....yeah, they'd panic more than a bit.

Yeah. Because they have no eyes to see enemies...they can't even move without sensing their enemies throught the force...come on.

3. According to the EU, Sidious had the frameworks for the other one in construction already. Took him twenty or so years just to make one. And the Ancient Sith-with FAR inferior technology to Palpatine-have no time at all...and Star Forge? Rakta's nowhere near Ziost.

Go and play KotoR. Go and visit Ajunta Pall. Ancient Sith Empire had control over the Star Forge. Argue it back and forth...as long as you have nothing that contradicts this statement - and there is nothing that does it - the Ancient Sith Empire had control over the Star Forge.

4. Lumiya's only been on Ziost and Korriban, getting training from the Ancients. And Denau Ku kept himself alive with nothing more than willpower to kill Viqi Shesh after being impaled with.....three feet of steel. And Anakin's hatred for Obi-wan did wonders for him. Or Onimi who kept himself alive through hatred for the Gods.

Oh...he was impaled. Sion had not a single intact bone in his body and he was happily running around alive. Simus was beheaded and kept himself alive in a jar for more than a century. Anything compareable seen in the lines of the Vong ? No ? Thought so...

5. Gee, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING maybe? Since darkside abilities are shown to not make a dent in the Vong, illusions won't have any effect on Vong psychology...What part of 'can't be directly affected in the Force' is hard to get here? and 10s of thousands? Which is why we saw....six Jedi fighting Sadow's glorious invasion force and doing a hell of a job of it. And Sadow'd need to concentrate to create any sort of illusion. The Vong'll notice him kneeling...and vong tend to not be intimidated no matter the odds.

Make Sadow create illusions for every other Sith Lord present and they might notice a kneeling Sadow (with 99 kneeling duplicates) while the rest of the Sith unleash their fury on them...

6. And Sylvar ever showed herself to be anything special whatsoever?

Yeah. She killed 5 Massasi warriors. Must be strong though...haha.

7. One of those sabers Vima da-Boda gave Luke was a relic from Ossus we saw Ood Bnar burying....he said, and I quote, "Some of the first the ORder ever created." And the first Great Schism was Xendor's. The second was the Hundred year Darkness in 7000 BBY. I don't like it either, but it's in the continuity.

The first shism is what matters. Don't you get it ? The Dark Jedi from the first shism were exiled from Republic space and went to the space that later became the Sith Empire. Must be hard to understand the continuity when it doesn't fit your arguments.

And Luke as the best fighter? Yes.

Proof ? Thanks.

1. He was certainly not a master. Memit and Odan were very young. Odan was still a padawan to Ooroo.

2. Certainly cripples them more than a bit. All their talks of 'feeling their foes'

3. Proof it wasn't just the Corbos group that had it? Where was it when Marka was around? Or Sadow? Would've been mighty helpful when he was getting whooped by the Republic....

4. Happily running around? Denua stayed alive just to kill Viqi and died when she killed herself. And SImus was a Dark Lord Marka bested. When the average run of the mill can do that....

5. Before or after the Sith get a flurry of razor and thud bugs to the face? Or before the Vong just decide to destroy the world?

6. Or the complete ineptitude of the Massassi who Republic soldiers and Jedi were slaughtering...

7. And according to the NEC, that first schism ended when Xendor died...no exiles until Corbos

8. Name another fighter who kills eight elite warriors in seconds. Thanks.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't use WOTC RPG stats.

You do use the Essential Guides and those contain information being created for the WotC SW RPG. So you use "stuff from WotC".

And Lucas approved? Which is why they have a disclaimer in the opening covers? The story stuff is in the continuity, stats are not....otherwhise Crado has great dexterity than DE Luke.

The point is that Ragnos is an powerful individual which did fight and use the force for centuries while Luke - as powerful as he is - did only have 30 years of training.
And now tell me what you want to argue about the stats ?

Luke's abilities in NJO:
Affect Mind: Luke > Ragnos
Battlemind: Ragnos > Luke (logical because he was constantly fighting other force users were Luke wasn't)
Empathy: Ragnos doesn't even have some...
Enhance Ability: Ragnos > Luke... only logical...
Enhance Senses: Never seen Ragnos using that...
Farseeing: Not used by Ragnos
Force Defence: Ragnos > Luke (again logical since Ragnos kept an entire Empire of force users under his belt were Luke didn't have to do the same)
Heal Self: Not used by Ragnos
Move Object: They are equal...
See Force: Ragnos > Luke because of more experience
Telepathy: Ragnos > Luke again more experience
Alchemy: Since when does Luke practice Sith Alchemy ?
Control Mind: Again nothing Luke would use...

And for the feats: I don't see Luke raging around or use Sith swords / Sith powers (drain force, drain life)...so ?

And yeah, Ever. And Lucas actually gave QUITE the damn about Luke, his power and constant survival. Lucas gave his go ahead to the Tales books as well, most of which are apocrpyha

Yeah. Lucas who - according to himself - doesn't even read the EU stories keeps an eye on everything...of course only then when you need him to do that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Crack open Edge of Victory and read to where just before that little Twi'lek is tortured to death. And unlike you, I can at least provide sources for my arguments, Glentract.

Which Edge of Victory, 1 or 2?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And this 'grain of sand' will be launched how exactly? When did the Sith ever display that precision or patience? And water in the Vong bodies? Your turn for a soruce. Please, if it were that easy the Jedi'd have crushed them long before hand.

Read Destiny's Way, the Jedi could have wiped all the Vong but chose not to because they didn't want a genocide on their hands. Alpha Red.

They have showed it by their many feats which put them above people like Jacen or Luke in force mastery who did the same thing.

Let me put it another way.

They have instakilled Jedi Masters with their force powers which were enhanced by artifacts. These Jedi Masters have been shown to be able to block blaster bolts with their hands. They had to used significantly more power then what comes from a Winchester Rifle to do this, meaning they have the power to do such. See, logic. It's an easy concept.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is why Jacen is described as a living conduit and connected completely to the Force? Why Onimi becomes as insignificant as a bug?

Let me go check. I don't see where it ever said Onmi became as insignificant as a bug. Let me look again. Nope, not it there.

Note that all force users are conduits of the force, as it has been said in mutiple sources, including your beloved ROTS Novelization.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And lying? That's funny, considering you've never provided a single source for your arguments. Anything to say about that SW.com link, Glentract?

Don't try to dodge the point, face up to it. You need to provide sources for your points, something I have done a lot, or I let other people do it, as they have already shown the evidence for the argoument I am using before my post.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And yeah, all DARTHS came after Bane...like Revan. And Malak. And Rivan. And Traya...Name ONE Bane era Sith who wore armor like that. Just one. Who was entombed on Korriban and had a Holocron.

Bane had the armor. It's also not like being entombed on Korriban was that hard after the Ancient Sith left, the Reborn were all over the place.

Note that Revan, Malak, Bandon, and Traya are reguarded as EU inconsistentcies.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fine. NJO sourcebook for Luke. Read it and find it yourself. I love it when I get called a liar by people who consistently rehash arguments. Name a single feat that even compares to what Luke does. And by the by: Considering you tried to claim Anakin Solo helped Luke against Palpatine, you shouldn't talk.

Go crack open the Essential Guides and go find it youself. I can play that game too. Doesn't work, especially since I have showed to people who have been around he for a long time that I am a reputable source. Something, I might add, you haven't done with the majority.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And exar destroyed BODO Baas's Holocron...two entirely different people right there.

You can talk to IKC about this. They are the same one.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You do use the Essential Guides and those contain information being created for the WotC SW RPG. So you use "stuff from WotC".

The point is that Ragnos is an powerful individual which did fight and use the force for centuries while Luke - as powerful as he is - did only have 30 years of training.
And now tell me what you want to argue about the stats ?

Luke's abilities in NJO:
Affect Mind: Luke > Ragnos
Battlemind: Ragnos > Luke (logical because he was constantly fighting other force users were Luke wasn't)
Empathy: Ragnos doesn't even have some...
Enhance Ability: Ragnos > Luke... only logical...
Enhance Senses: Never seen Ragnos using that...
Farseeing: Not used by Ragnos
Force Defence: Ragnos > Luke (again logical since Ragnos kept an entire Empire of force users under his belt were Luke didn't have to do the same)
Heal Self: Not used by Ragnos
Move Object: They are equal...
See Force: Ragnos > Luke because of more experience
Telepathy: Ragnos > Luke again more experience
Alchemy: Since when does Luke practice Sith Alchemy ?
Control Mind: Again nothing Luke would use...

And for the feats: I don't see Luke raging around or use Sith swords / Sith powers (drain force, drain life)...so ?

Yeah. Lucas who - according to himself - doesn't even read the EU stories keeps an eye on everything...of course only then when you need him to do that.

Considering Lucas read and loved Dark Empire and they had to run a lot from the Thrawn trilogy and NJO by him...

And being in the Essential guide, info goes beyond WOTC. My point is, history is not RPG stats.

And Ragnos wasn't doing much 'fighting' with other force users. Luke's fought plenty of Dark Jedi.

And so Luke had thirty years, so? In six of that, he was creaitng illusions of fleets and moving black holes. He's still expressed more power than any Sith before him

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Which Edge of Victory, 1 or 2?

Read Destiny's Way, the Jedi could have wiped all the Vong but chose not to because they didn't want a genocide on their hands. Alpha Red.

They have showed it by their many feats which put them above people like Jacen or Luke in force mastery who did the same thing.

Let me put it another way.

They have instakilled Jedi Masters with their force powers which were enhanced by artifacts. These Jedi Masters have been shown to be able to block blaster bolts with their hands. They had to used significantly more power then what comes from a Winchester Rifle to do this, meaning they have the power to do such. See, logic. It's an easy concept.

Let me go check. I don't see where it ever said Onmi became as insignificant as a bug. Let me look again. Nope, not it there.

Note that all force users are conduits of the force, as it has been said in mutiple sources, including your beloved ROTS Novelization.

Don't try to dodge the point, face up to it. You need to provide sources for your points, something I have done a lot, or I let other people do it, as they have already shown the evidence for the argoument I am using before my post.

Bane had the armor. It's also not like being entombed on Korriban was that hard after the Ancient Sith left, the Reborn were all over the place.

Note that Revan, Malak, Bandon, and Traya are reguarded as EU inconsistentcies.

Go crack open the Essential Guides and go find it youself. I can play that game too. Doesn't work, especially since I have showed to people who have been around he for a long time that I am a reputable source. Something, I might add, you haven't done with the majority.

You can talk to IKC about this. They are the same one.

1. Name a single feat. Name a Jedi master 'instakilled' by the Ancient Empire. Just the ANCIENT Era mind you....

2. I was paraphrasing on Onimi. It makes a direct reference to him being along the lines of 'nothing' and 'insignificant.'

3. Name a single conduit to the force who was half as correct as Jacen there. Oh, wait, they didn't exist?

4. Waaaait, so I have to provide sources but you can let others do it for you?

5. Bane didn't wear armor...he used those parasitic creatures...orb-something: http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/images/editorials/bane_top.jpg
Bit fuzzy, but....where's the Sith style armor?

6. Revan and the gang are no longer inconsistencies. They've been worked in completely.

Anyways, I'm getting a bit tired of MB debate.

If anyone wants to continue this via IM, reach me at:
AIM: Debnath
MSN: [email protected]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering Lucas read and loved Dark Empire and they had to run a lot from the Thrawn trilogy and NJO by him...

Proof?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And being in the Essential guide, info goes beyond WOTC. My point is, history is not RPG stats.

How does this effect Ragnos being stronger then Luke?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Ragnos wasn't doing much 'fighting' with other force users. Luke's fought plenty of Dark Jedi.

The entire Sith Order hated him and plenty of people would have tried to take his position during his 100+ years of rule.

Luke fought 10, maybe 15. Ragnos would have fought hundreds easily.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And so Luke had thirty years, so? In six of that, he was creaitng illusions of fleets and moving black holes. He's still expressed more power than any Sith before him

Destroying stars is at least as impressive as manipulation black holes, especially considering that Kyp Durron did the same thing more easily and, here's the killer, it wasn't a real black hole. It was a Dovin Basal. A fake used by the Vong to as shields. Generated by Vong ships. So much for Luke controlling real black holes. Source: I believe it was in the Dark Tide books.

Luke was extremely drained after creating an illusion of a single ship in DN1. Sadow made illusions of entire fleets mutiple times and was never stated as being very weak afterward. Source:TOTJ comics.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. He was certainly not a master. Memit and Odan were very young. Odan was still a padawan to Ooroo.

Mace Windu created his own lightsaber style in the age of 13 and nobody except Yoda and Dooku ever bested him with a lightsaber. So again: What does age and position say about skill ?

2. Certainly cripples them more than a bit. All their talks of 'feeling their foes'

Why would it cripple them at all and even "certainly" ? They are warriors using to fight although they enchance their abilites using the force - why do you think they need to sense people in order to fight them ?

3. Proof it wasn't just the Corbos group that had it? Where was it when Marka was around? Or Sadow? Would've been mighty helpful when he was getting whooped by the Republic....

Why would the map to the SF would get burried in the tomb that was built to honor Sadow if nobody has seen the SF for 2000 years ? And were talking about the entire Ancient Sith Empire meaning if Ajunta Pall had control over it it's there for this battle.

4. Happily running around? Denua stayed alive just to kill Viqi and died when she killed herself. And SImus was a Dark Lord Marka bested. When the average run of the mill can do that....

I was talking about Sion who was running around an killing people for years without having a single intact bone in his body. And yes...Simus was a Dark Lord and he used Sith magic to do what he did. Sion however was none of the ancient Sith Lords and Vader after being a "dark sider" for a few hours wasn't too...still both survived huge amounts of physical damage with sheer willpower because they were force users.

5. Before or after the Sith get a flurry of razor and thud bugs to the face? Or before the Vong just decide to destroy the world?

I love how I have to type "Now a example is following" before everything I write to have you understand it. Let a party of 50 Sith Lords board a YV ship and use illusions to cover them. Could be quite effective...

6. Or the complete ineptitude of the Massassi who Republic soldiers and Jedi were slaughtering...

I wonder how non force users with melee weapons would manage to do the same...

7. And according to the NEC, that first schism ended when Xendor died...no exiles until Corbos

I wonder how you gonna explain the existance of Arden Lyn...

8. Name another fighter who kills eight elite warriors in seconds. Thanks.

Name another fighter that needed to kill eight elite warriors in seconds.

1. From SW.com: "In 1999, Chewbacca became the first major character in the Star Wars films to be killed off in the Expanded Universe, when R.A. Salvatore's Vector Prime, the first entry in the New Jedi Order series, depicted him being crushed by Dobido, one of two moons of Sernpidal. This caused great resentment among some fans, including at least one death threat, despite the fact that the idea originated with Randy Stradley, and confirmed by Lucas well before Salvatore was even signed on to the series."

"According to author Timothy Zahn, Joruus C'baoth was originally supposed to be a mad clone of Obi-Wan (Ben) Kenobi, but was forced to change it when LucasFilm did not agree."

That Lucas loved DE is common knowledge, as much that as he hates the holiday special.

Proof ragnos touched a Sith other than Simus. Come on. Proof.

And did Kyp move a dovin Basal in Dark Tide? Luke moved several blackholes to destroy the carrier beasts the YV were using. And Luke weak? Proof now. He never showed any weakness after creating the ships and managed to create a long lasting sith illusion to Leia and the gang. And when you reach that Luke couldn't manipulate Vong tech with the force...either he was manipulating black holes or manipulating massive amounts of gravity.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Name a single feat. Name a Jedi master 'instakilled' by the Ancient Empire. Just the ANCIENT Era mind you....

Name one instakilled by Luke.

Also note that Exar feared the Ancient Sith spirits and could do it. Logic states that if someone who is far weaker then someone can do something, the stronger person should be able to do the same because the feat itself requires great strength.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. I was paraphrasing on Onimi. It makes a direct reference to him being along the lines of 'nothing' and 'insignificant.'

It says something more along the lines of less threatening by the moment. Nothing is never hinted at.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Name a single conduit to the force who was half as correct as Jacen there. Oh, wait, they didn't exist?

Prove that Jacen was above everyone else to begin with, then I will do my part.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Waaaait, so I have to provide sources but you can let others do it for you?

If you have other people who have provided the same evidence, show it to me and we can move onward. For me to repost it would be almost as redundant as these arguments.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Bane didn't wear armor...he used those parasitic creatures...orb-something: http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/images/editorials/bane_top.jpg
Bit fuzzy, but....where's the Sith style armor?

Which was stated as forming and armor on him. Also note that people like the Jensaari and the Nightsisters also wore armor and they were not Ancients. The fact that he is mentioned as Darth means more then me not knowing exactly where he got his armor.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
. Revan and the gang are no longer inconsistencies. They've been worked in completely.

Them having the name Darth is. Notice that they aren't Ancients either. Name one Ancient named Darth.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Mace Windu created his own lightsaber style in the age of 13 and nobody except Yoda and Dooku ever bested him with a lightsaber. So again: What does age and position say about skill ?

Why would it cripple them at all and even "certainly" ? They are warriors using to fight although they enchance their abilites using the force - why do you think they need to sense people in order to fight them ?

Why would the map to the SF would get burried in the tomb that was built to honor Sadow if nobody has seen the SF for 2000 years ? And were talking about the entire Ancient Sith Empire meaning if Ajunta Pall had control over it it's there for this battle.

I was talking about Sion who was running around an killing people for years without having a single intact bone in his body. And yes...Simus was a Dark Lord and he used Sith magic to do what he did. Sion however was none of the ancient Sith Lords and Vader after being a "dark sider" for a few hours wasn't too...still both survived huge amounts of physical damage with sheer willpower because they were force users.

I love how I have to type "Now a example is following" before everything I write to have you understand it. Let a party of 50 Sith Lords board a YV ship and use illusions to cover them. Could be quite effective...

I wonder how non force users with melee weapons would manage to do the same...

I wonder how you gonna explain the existance of Arden Lyn...

Name another fighter that needed to kill eight elite warriors in seconds.

1. And Mace didn't hit his lightsaber peak for years and years after that. It's not exactly uncommon to craft a saber by that age...

2. When you have a race totally dependant on the Dark Side and its dominance and they realize they can't sense a massive enemy fleet through it....and considering the Sith were utter cowards when things didn't go their way. Just look at Sadow and Kressh. And the competence level wasn't high...Sadow made GAV DARAGON fleet commander...

3. Logical fallacy and KOTOR error as Sadow didn't even HAVE a tomb....hell, the Tetans were attacking the Empire and Sadow's corpse wasn't recovered.

4. Fifty Sith Lords who'd be massively outnumbered by the crew of a YV ship who wouldn't be intimidated by illusions, who'd have a large number of Chazrach slaves and thud and razor bugs to launch at them, not to mention Yammosks. And there'd have to be a strong Sith Lord in a meditation sphere nearbye....are the Vong pilots going to let it sit there? They'd be more likely to blast it to pieces. Otherwise the Vong'd be noticing which enemies the amphistaff slices through and which it doesn't.

5. Other fighters who'd have needed to kill eight warriors in seconds...well, would've helped Exar Kun on Coruscant...would've been a huge aid to Darth Malak and Darth Vader...Kyle Katarn, too

Anyways, the MB stuff is getting irritating with constant refreshes...anyone have IM?

5. Arden Lyn was Xendor's lover who was put into a 25 thou year sleep. What's hard about that?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. From SW.com: "In 1999, Chewbacca became the first major character in the Star Wars films to be killed off in the Expanded Universe, when R.A. Salvatore's Vector Prime, the first entry in the New Jedi Order series, depicted him being crushed by Dobido, one of two moons of Sernpidal. This caused great resentment among some fans, including at least one death threat, despite the fact that the idea originated with Randy Stradley, and confirmed by Lucas well before Salvatore was even signed on to the series."

I know that Lucas confirmed Chewie's death. That means what?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
"According to author Timothy Zahn, Joruus C'baoth was originally supposed to be a mad clone of Obi-Wan (Ben) Kenobi, but was forced to change it when LucasFilm did not agree."

What does this have to do with anything? Says nothing about Lucas and DE.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That Lucas loved DE is common knowledge, as much that as he hates the holiday special.

Lucas actually vetoed someone of the things that were stated in DE. That he loved them isn't common knowledge since you seem to be only person who knows it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof ragnos touched a Sith other than Simus. Come on. Proof.

Ragnos was hated by the other Sith(source: KOTOR 2) for being a half breed. The strong shale rule(source: KOTOR). If Ragnos wasn't the strongest, he wouldn't rule. The Sith were constantly having Civil Wars(source: KOTOR 2).

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And did Kyp move a dovin Basal in Dark Tide? Luke moved several blackholes to destroy the carrier beasts the YV were using. And Luke weak? Proof now. He never showed any weakness after creating the ships and managed to create a long lasting sith illusion to Leia and the gang. And when you reach that Luke couldn't manipulate Vong tech with the force...either he was manipulating black holes or manipulating massive amounts of gravity.

He moved them in one of the earlier NJO books after he got the idea from Luke.

The black holes Luke moved he generated by the Yuuzhan Vong vehicles, they weren't real black holes. If you knew what you are talking about, you would remember that he was extremely tired after and needed help walking because he was so tired. (Source: Dark Tide books I think).

Sadow produced illusions that were on a far larger scale and lasted for much longer during the Great Hyperspace War.

Luke was maniplating the fake black hole because the black hole was part of their galaxy even though what generated it was not. That was all explained in the book.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Name one instakilled by Luke.

Also note that Exar feared the Ancient Sith spirits and could do it. Logic states that if someone who is far weaker then someone can do something, the stronger person should be able to do the same because the feat itself requires great strength.

It says something more along the lines of less threatening by the moment. Nothing is never hinted at.

Prove that Jacen was above everyone else to begin with, then I will do my part.

If you have other people who have provided the same evidence, show it to me and we can move onward. For me to repost it would be almost as redundant as these arguments.

Which was stated as forming and armor on him. Also note that people like the Jensaari and the Nightsisters also wore armor and they were not Ancients. The fact that he is mentioned as Darth means more then me not knowing exactly where he got his armor.

Them having the name Darth is. Notice that they aren't Ancients either. Name one Ancient named Darth.

1. Feared them? He saw Ragnos once and he was more curious than afraid at all. Last page of DlotS.

2. Page 47-471 on proof of JAcen's power: "He had allowed himself to merge with the Force in its entirety and become a conduit for its raw power." And the way he flawlessly outmanuevers and kills Onimi?

3. Read Traitor and Star by Star. Hell, Anakin became a connection to the Force fully to do his part. Only when the Force left him did he die. Same as Ganner.

4. Yes, show me where someone has proven Massassi WEREN'T being taken on about five to one by Jedi in the Jedi favor and that Exar Kun was scared of Ragnos or that Luke was being helped by Anakin Solo.

5. Name a single Sith Lord who wore armor in the design of the ANCIENTS...completr with headresses, entombments on Korriban, and holocrons...
6. Sure: Andeddu. and considering one of Bane's other pals on Ruusan was Darth Rivan...

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I know that Lucas confirmed Chewie's death. That means what?

What does this have to do with anything? Says nothing about Lucas and DE.

Lucas actually vetoed someone of the things that were stated in DE. That he loved them isn't common knowledge since you seem to be only person who knows it.

Ragnos was hated by the other Sith(source: KOTOR 2) for being a half breed. The strong shale rule(source: KOTOR). If Ragnos wasn't the strongest, he wouldn't rule. The Sith were constantly having Civil Wars(source: KOTOR 2).

He moved them in one of the earlier NJO books after he got the idea from Luke.

The black holes Luke moved he generated by the Yuuzhan Vong vehicles, they weren't real black holes. If you knew what you are talking about, you would remember that he was extremely tired after and needed help walking because he was so tired. (Source: Dark Tide books I think).

Sadow produced illusions that were on a far larger scale and lasted for much longer during the Great Hyperspace War.

Luke was maniplating the fake black hole because the black hole was part of their galaxy even though what generated it was not. That was all explained in the book.

1. You asked for proof. specify what you want proof on.

2. Lucas vetoed things in the Thrawn trilogy too. He enjoyed Dark Empire so much he gave a copy to all his employees as a Christmas gift.
If you want people who can confirm it:
TheForce.net
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/gentopic.php?board=223

3. Dark Tide ain't Dark Empire. And 'not real black holes' what?

4. Luke produced enough fleet illusions to last through a massive battle...unlike Sadow, his concentration was never broken during the fight and the illusions lasted as long as Luke wanted, which is more than can be said for Naga.