"Wolverine takes Class 100 shots like nothing."

Muscles flexing projects force beams...?

ermm

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Muscles flexing projects force beams...?

ermm

I was under the impression that anything which was capable of producing lots of energy even if it didnt touch you, you could feel its force. For example even if you do not come into contact with a powerful engine even if you switch it on you feel the energy generated from it.

Hulks muscles can enable him to lift millions of tons im sure if he flexed them they could generate enoguh kinetic energy to project outwards.

Any form of machinery, in the loose sense of the word, is inefficient in that the energy consumption will always exceed the energy expenditure of the action or function required, e.g. human physical exertion is normally around 20-30% efficient, the rest being lost as heat etc, which may sound low but is actually relatively high iirc. An engine gives off heat, light and sound.

Muscles perform work by consuming ATP (chemical energy) and shortening myosin fibres (kinetic energy). Groups of muscles work in concert to perform a specific task for example lifting something. They don't actually "project force" nor "project energy" in any way. The above doesn't of course wholly reflect the Hulk, since Hulk is a comic character who gets angry and then grows larger from extradimensional mass and is green...

But I don't see from where you're getting that because Hulk can lift heavy things his flexing would somehow fire off kinetic blasts... 😕

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Any form of machinery, in the loose sense of the word, is inefficient in that the energy consumption will always exceed the energy expenditure of the action or function required, e.g. human physical exertion is normally around 20-30% efficient, the rest being lost as heat etc, which may sound low but is actually relatively high iirc. An engine gives off heat, light and sound.

They also give off kinetic energy. I dunno im sure you must have stood near an engine at some point and felt vibrations of force coming off it?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Muscles perform work by consuming ATP (chemical energy) and shortening myosin fibres (kinetic energy). Groups of muscles work in concert to perform a specific task for example lifting something. They don't actually "project force" nor "project energy" in any way. The above doesn't of course wholly reflect the Hulk, since Hulk is a comic character who gets angry and then grows larger from extradimensional mass and is green...

But I don't see from where you're getting that because Hulk can lift heavy things his flexing would somehow fire off kinetic blasts... 😕

Well this is the thing going back to my engine example. Engines dont just give off heat light and sound a powerful engine would give off kinetic energy, for example if the engine was really powerful you would feel vibrations rthough the ground...if it was really really powerful you could feel vibrations through the air.

A muscle is not an engine, but its like an organic one its has it own compents that enable a person to move or do ceratin tasks. A powerful engine gives off kinetic energy and could be felt through the ground, doesnt it stand to reason that something millions of times more powerful could generate vibrations of force through the air?

Originally posted by Alfheim
They also give off kinetic energy. I dunno im sure you must have stood near an engine at some point and felt vibrations of force coming off it?

Well this is the thing going back to my engine example. Engines dont just give off heat light and sound a powerful engine would give off kinetic energy, for example if the engine was really powerful you would feel vibrations rthough the ground...if it was really really powerful you could feel vibrations through the air.

Originally posted by Alfheim
A muscle is not an engine, but its like an organic one its has it own compents that enable a person to move or do ceratin tasks.

NB the myosin fibres don't "spring" back, chemical energy is also required for the relaxation of a muscle fibre.

Originally posted by Alfheim
A powerful engine gives off kinetic energy and could be felt through the ground, doesnt it stand to reason that something millions of times more powerful could generate vibrations of force through the air?

It seems like you're basing this on something you felt from a nondescript engine, the basis of which you don't know, and that you're applying it to muscle when the two mechanisms aren't the same, and then extrapolating it even further by amplifying it because Hulk is much stronger. I'm still not really seeing it.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah you do actually. Well I first apply real world physics but if it doesnt apply to the comc book world then I reject it

...and who was that.

Of course its based on the real world but when you go into detail its nothing like the real world. For example people were b*tching that if the Hulk hits Wolverine he should land on the moon, then some dabators failed to see that if your going to use that logic The Hulk should be able to leap out of orbit with a leap and that applies to Thor, Hercules etc. They were using inconsistent logic.

Hulk could knock Wolverine to the moon if he really wanted to, it's within his abilities, though it isn't written in the comic. So again I fail to see what you are saying against me because what I'm saying is that this is a forum and not a comic anyways.

Originally posted by jasofisc
still dude that quite a lot I think your a bit off. I think the most would be 100pounds it's harder to strike with that kind of pressure (speaking of 100 pounds) I could be wrong if you have any proff from a creidble source i'm just going to say you seen too many ninja movies or action movies. you would litteraly rip someones head off with that much presure

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It's just like you can stab through a bullet proof vest when bullets can't it's because of the way the force is applied.

Thats very true, I was even making a post about the durabilty of a bullet proof vest to bullets and knives and bullets at close range in the Ares vs Wolverine thread but the damn thing timed out on me when I went to post it.

My main point was the durabilty of the vest didn't change it was the nature of the force applied and not the amount of force that punctured it.

Thanks for putting my entire page long post into one sentence! 😄 😆

EDIT: I was making the post to point out durablilty levels of certain characters like Ares.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If the engine is vibrating it's because the internal components are moving out of synchrony and/or impacting each other in some way I'd assume. I'm not a mechanic.

Yes and the more powerful the engine the more powerful the vibrations.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Yes, actin and myosin cross bridges in alignment. Contraction shortens the myosin fibres. Think of a spring. Think of lots of springs in alignment attached to a bar. Think of lots of these set ups in series and parallel. That's sort of like a muscle, energy needs to be put in to compress them, and as they compress they move joints. That's how force is generated in as simplified a way as I can think of.

Ok

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

NB the myosin fibres don't "spring" back, chemical energy is also required for the relaxation of a muscle fibre.
The contraction of a muscle fibre isn't going to generate any sort of perpendicular vibrational energy as far as I'm aware.

So this wouldnt happen even if the muscle was insanely powerful.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

It seems like you're basing this on something you felt from a nondescript engine, the basis of which you don't know, and that you're applying it to muscle when the two mechanisms aren't the same, and then extrapolating it even further by amplifying it because Hulk is much stronger. I'm still not really seeing it.

Well im only going by what I know I dont know everything about physics. At the end of the day anything that produces enough power produces vibrations, right? It can be organic matter or machine.

Lets take the human heart. If you put your hand to somebodies chest you can feel their heart beating, because the heart muscle produces enough power to emit vibrations.

Now if you incresed the power of the human heart millions of times to some insane level the power of the heart could send vibrations through the ground in the form of shockwaves. If its able to pass shockwaves through the ground then its possible to send shockwaves through the air. Therefore this could apply to other muscles as well if they are powerful enough when they flex they could produce vibrations of force.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I give that vibe off to people who don't understand the applications to begin with.

Possibly but I dont have time to go through the Cap vs Spidey thread.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Hulk could knock Wolverine to the moon if he really wanted to, it's within his abilities, though it isn't written in the comic. So again I fail to see what you are saying against me because what I'm saying is that this is a forum and not a comic anyways.

Yeah and you seem to apply real world physics to this forum thats why its different on a forum. Well ok can the Hulk, Hercules and Thor jump to the moon on this forum?

Originally posted by Hercules
Thats very true, I was even making a post about the durabilty of a bullet proof vest to bullets and knives and bullets at close range in the Ares vs Wolverine thread but the damn thing timed out on me when I went to post it.

My main point was the durabilty of the vest didn't change it was the nature of the force applied and not the amount of force that punctured it.

Thanks for putting my entire page long post into one sentence! 😄 😆

EDIT: I was making the post to point out durablilty levels of certain characters like Ares.

Yeah ok that was understood but I dont think you backed it up. At ceratin strength levels characters tend to be bulletproof for example class 100, if you get somebody in the class100 range who isnt then he is the exception to the rule. Most people in the class 10 range are not bulletproof if you get somebody who is then its the exception to the rule.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I give that vibe off to people who don't understand the applications to begin with.

Hulk could knock Wolverine to the moon if he really wanted to, it's within his abilities, though it isn't written in the comic. So again I fail to see what you are saying against me because what I'm saying is that this is a forum and not a comic anyways. No you wouldn't. Research it, you use technique to lessen the area and that makes the force more. It's just like you can stab through a bullet proof vest when bullets can't it's because of the way the force is applied.

without any proff from a credible source you sound ridiculous. sorry dude but a ton is a lot of pressure for any kind of hit from one person to another

I've already proven this before and anyone who fights knows about the application of pressure. I'm not going to bust my chops showing you because you'll then dismiss anything I post as bs as well, so you look it up.

And I said force, not pressure. Force=Pressure X area. The same amount of pressure over a less area equals more force as well. A skilled fighter would hit in less area to generate more force.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah and you seem to apply real world physics to this forum thats why its different on a forum. Well ok can the Hulk, Hercules and Thor jump to the moon on this forum?

A better question would be if they have ever been set a limit on how high they can actually jump.

And furthermore your running example is incorrect. Someone superstrong at a light weight would run really fast until a point, because there would be too much pressure in their body. That's why characters like Spiderman rely on jumping in the first place.

Originally posted by Hercules
Thats very true, I was even making a post about the durabilty of a bullet proof vest to bullets and knives and bullets at close range in the Ares vs Wolverine thread but the damn thing timed out on me when I went to post it.

My main point was the durabilty of the vest didn't change it was the nature of the force applied and not the amount of force that punctured it.

Thanks for putting my entire page long post into one sentence! 😄 😆

EDIT: I was making the post to point out durablilty levels of certain characters like Ares.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I've already proven this before and anyone who fights knows about the application of pressure. I'm not going to bust my chops showing you because you'll then dismiss anything I post as bs as well, so you look it up.

And I said force, not pressure. Force=Pressure X area. The same amount of pressure over a less area equals more force as well. A skilled fighter would hit in less area to generate more force.

where did you prove this is there a thread I can check out.

as for your any one who fights crap that's an easy way out of this and yeah while I agree with you that less area generates more force that doesn't mean I agree with 2000 pounds of force thing that's still a little crazy.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well this is the thing. Again the rules contradict each other. The Bloodlust rules state they will use all the powers at their disposal. The CIS rules state that they wont. This is what I mean the rules need updating and clarifying.

Originally posted by Alfheim

You could argue that Namor could use the elctroshoock tactic because its one of his powers due to the bloodlust rule, but CIS seems to imply he wont use it.

Also SvFL contradicts the PIS rule.

Originally posted by jasofisc
where did you prove this is there a thread I can check out.

as for your any one who fights crap that's an easy way out of this and yeah while I agree with you that less area generates more force that doesn't mean I agree with 2000 pounds of force thing that's still a little crazy.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Lets take the human heart. If you put your hand to somebodies chest you can feel their heart beating, because the heart muscle produces enough power to emit vibrations.

Now if you incresed the power of the human heart millions of times to some insane level the power of the heart could send vibrations through the ground in the form of shockwaves. If its able to pass shockwaves through the ground then its possible to send shockwaves through the air. Therefore this could apply to other muscles as well if they are powerful enough when they flex they could produce vibrations of force.

BTW power as a physical term means energy per time, you shouldn't confuse it with force, pressure or absolute energy.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The heart isn't skeletal muscle, it's fluid-filled chambers. Contraction and relaxation changes its volume and pressure constantly and quickly, fluid impacts on valves between atria and ventricles and between ventricles and the aorta and pulmonary artery. The surface of the heart is covered in a double layered sac which is also filled with fluid. It's not a good analogy to skeletal muscle moving joints.

The analogy is just fine, you are over complicating things. They are both muscles they both expand and contract and both are capable of passing vibrations through objects they come in contact with. You can feel the vibration fo the heart by touching a persons chest. I could get my chest muscles and flex them and cause a door to move backwards, therefore my chest muscles are capable of passing vibrations through physical objects.

No if you have the Hulks chest muscles which are capable of making him lift millions of tons im sure if he flexed his chest muscles and they came in contact with a wall, that wall would collapse or if he applied that to the gorund he could create an earthquake.

Heres the point I think his muscles themselves are capable of making an earthquake if they touch the ground, I therefore think that the muscles are capable of creating shockwaves through the air if they are flexed because the powere generated from the muscles are so great and air does allow energy to pass through it light, sound etc.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

BTW power as a physical term means energy per time, you shouldn't confuse it with force, pressure or absolute energy.

Well I think you understand what I mean when I say vibrations or shockwaves im not going to go into technical detail.

Originally posted by Alfheim
The analogy is just fine, you are over complicating things. They are both muscles they both expand and contract and both are capable of passing vibrations through objects they come in contact with. You can feel the vibration fo the heart by touching a persons chest. I could get my chest muscles and flex them and cause a door to move backwards, therefore my chest muscles are capable of passing vibrations through physical objects.

No if you have the Hulks chest muscles which are capable of making him lift millions of tons im sure if he flexed his chest muscles and they came in contact with a wall, that wall would collapse or if he applied that to the gorund he could create an earthquake.

Heres the point I think his muscles themselves are capable of making an earthquake if they touch the ground, I therefore think that the muscles are capable of creating shockwaves through the air if they are flexed because the powere generated from the muscles are so great and air does allow energy to pass through it light, sound etc.

Well I think you understand what I mean when I say vibrations or shockwaves im not going to go into technical detail.

The heart is fluid filled, it is constantly ejecting and filling, fluid pressure is changing, fluids impact valves. Skeletal muscle undergoes no such processes.
Additionally you can feel the vibrations because the heart is connected via pleura to the chest wall and as it expands and contracts it changes the pressure inside these pleural spaces. It's not just sitting in empty space in the middle of your chest.

If you were to move a door with a pectoral it would be because in the contraction process the muscle is decreasing longitudinally and increasing in size in the transverse dimension, impacting the door, transferring kinetic energy sufficient to overcome friction, ergo it moves. You'd be physically moving the door. It's not some vibrations emanating from you that magically traverse the air and move the door. If you just contracted, sustained it and just rested against the door without applying any kinetic energy, nothing would happen.

If he just contracted his pectoral muscles, sustained the contraction and rested them gently against a wall, nothing would occur. Same with the ground.

Unless you're trying to apply that saying Hulk can flex his pectoral, moving it a few inches, fast enough to cause a rapid expansion of air sufficient to create shockwaves? Based on some undefined "muscle power."

He cannot stand, maintain a muscular contraction and shoot off shockwaves from his chest based on being strong. It does not make any sense. It is not "logical."

A thunderclap is the rapid compression and expansion of air. Note rapid.

and, again, there's still no proof that wolverine wouldn't have gone to daredevil if winter soldier had said yes. there's no inference that murdock was second choice and not simply second to be found. neither of your logics, capt or alf, were directly off the page.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The analogy between the heart as an organ and a skeletal muscle is flawed. Period. I'm not overcomplicating things, I'm making them as complicated as they need to be, if anything I'm simplifying them. If you're going to talk about anatomy and venture into the deep end, then be prepared for it to get complicated.

The heart is fluid filled, it is constantly ejecting and filling, fluid pressure is changing, fluids impact valves. Skeletal muscle undergoes no such processes.
Additionally you can feel the vibrations because the heart is connected via pleura to the chest wall and as it expands and contracts it changes the pressure inside these pleural spaces. It's not just sitting in empty space in the middle of your chest.

If you were to move a door with a pectoral it would be because in the contraction process the muscle is decreasing longitudinally and increasing in size in the transverse dimension, impacting the door, transferring kinetic energy sufficient to overcome friction, ergo it moves. You'd be physically moving the door. It's not some vibrations emanating from you that magically traverse the air and move the door. If you just contracted, sustained it and just rested against the door without applying any kinetic energy, nothing would happen.

If he just contracted his pectoral muscles, sustained the contraction and rested them gently against a wall, nothing would occur. Same with the ground.

Unless you're trying to apply that saying Hulk can flex his pectoral, moving it a few inches, fast enough to cause a rapid expansion of air sufficient to create shockwaves? Based on some undefined "muscle power."

He cannot stand, maintain a muscular contraction and shoot off shockwaves from his chest based on being strong. It does not make any sense. It is not "logical."

A thunderclap is the rapid compression and expansion of air. Note rapid.

Actually in hindsight I am getting my terminology wrong. I am mistaking shockawaves for kinetic energy, I thought they were they same thing and they are not.

All the examples I gave can be used as analogies because everyhting that moves or vibrates causes pressure waves. An engine, a machine, a heart, a sketetal muscle. A shockwave is a very powerful pressure wave, therefore if an object is extremely powerful it should be able to make a shockwave.

You stated in your previous post that if a muscle was applied very gently to a surface then it will not cause vibrations. All you did is give me an example of a situation in which it would not work at the end of the day if the muscle is contracted with speed it will work.

The Hulks muscles if applied to surfaces are capable of causing vibrations that cause earthquakes and destruction, since they are this powerful I think if they were contracted in the air very rapidly they would cause shockwaves.

Originally posted by Disappear
and, again, there's still no proof that wolverine wouldn't have gone to daredevil if winter soldier had said yes.

Why would Wolverine ask DD if WS had said yes? If WS had said yes he doesnt need DD anymore. 😕

Originally posted by Disappear

there's no inference that murdock was second choice and not simply second to be found. neither of your logics, capt or alf, were directly off the page.

I dont think Murdock was second choice. I think Wolverine just asked who was available.