Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But I find your logic poisoned, because all of your analogies fail to justify or even relate to your stance.
I admit that religiously I argue from a biased perspective. That doesn't automatically invalidate the argument though. My examples are generally good for the point I'm trying to get across with them, but for some reason you tend to try to expand them beyond that point.
It's like if when Forrest Gump said that life is like a box of chocolates, the guy sitting next to him said, "how do you figure? Life isn't arranged in neat little compartments. Life doesn't always taste sweet."
So, yes, I'm biased, but don't deny that you are too. We just happen to have opposing biases. I understand that we will probably never actually agree on these things, but I think that understanding each other could be possible.
Originally posted by docb77
I admit that religiously I argue from a biased perspective. That doesn't automatically invalidate the argument though. My examples are generally good for the point I'm trying to get across with them, but for some reason you tend to try to expand them beyond that point.It's like if when Forrest Gump said that life is like a box of chocolates, the guy sitting next to him said, "how do you figure? Life isn't arranged in neat little compartments. Life doesn't always taste sweet."
So, yes, I'm biased, but don't deny that you are too. We just happen to have opposing biases. I understand that we will probably never actually agree on these things, but I think that understanding each other could be possible.
All I am saying is that your analogies do NOT support your arguments. If you want to use analogies use better ones.
You compared the apple that Eve ate, to catfood. That was a HORRIBLE and unconvincing analogy , and in no way convinced me of ANYTHING.....
You tend to come up with a lot of analogies that DO NOT FIT your arguments...that is my point.
Use analogies all you want, but if they do NOT support your argument, I will critisize them as extensively as I deem necessary. 😉
Originally posted by docb77
Nope, the "apple incident" was completely paid for by Christ. No one who was ever alive will have to suffer because of that.Hell is because we're screwed up people. I screw up all the time. Basically life is a minefield and God is doing 2 jobs at once. He's yelling "don't step there", and He's acting as the Doctor/Surgeon.
Of course next you'll ask why God made the world such a minefield. The answer is he didn't. God gave us a great place and then we put the mines down (That's probably part of the "us screwing up" thing).
Hell was created FOR the devil and his angels, not for people.
Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Hell was created FOR the devil and his angels, not for people.[B]Matthew 25:41
[/B]
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Hell is here on Earth, the devil is only in your mind and not real, and what does that Roman anti-propaganda have to do with anything?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
That is exactly what I am saying. Flesh and blood CANNOT enter heaven but flesh and bone can because Jesus IS FLESH AND BONE. Jesus entered Heaven with a flesh and bone, incorruptible, immortal body. This is what the Scriptures reveal. You can learn as much about what the Bible DOES SAY as you can by what it DOES NOT say.
* there is nowhere in the Bible you can find that Christ entered heaven with flesh and bones, it is only your pre-conceived idea, my friend... the fact that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom in heaven, it is also tantamount of saying that flesh and bones also CANNOT inherit the kingdom in heaven...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus transformed into a spirit then ascended to Heaven.
* oh? and what's this?
"So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
I Corinthians 15:45
* Christ became a spirit... that's what the Bible says...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Spirits occupy the spirit world and physical things occupy the physical world. That is the problem with a "spirit" Christ ruling on a physical planet.
* you sure messed things up, my friend... according to you, we ARE spirits, but we are occupying the physical world... what now?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The point of changing FROM a mortal (subject to death) corruptible (sin-resident) body TO an incorruptible (devoid of sin) immortal (no longer capable of death) body is to deal with the sin and death PROBLEM. Can you see this? There is no sin or death in Heaven so that is why FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God because flesh and blood is a synonym for unregenerate (i.e., not born again) humanity. Flesh and blood is a reference to sinful humanity still subject to death. So God dealt with humanity's SIN AND DEATH problem through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus. NOW, anyone who wants to go to heaven can be free from sin and death by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus said though you may die (i.e., physically) you WILL LIVE (i.e., eternally in His presence because you have everlasting life).
* that's where you messed up again... and you keep on blatantly contradicting I Corinthians 15:50...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I am not saying that every single person who dies goes to Heaven in a physical body because they do not. But Jesus DID, I think Enoch and Elijah did as well.
* Enoch and Elijah did not go to heaven with flesh, blood and bones...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Furthermore, it does NOT say that flesh and blood CANNOT ENTER the Kingdom of God it says cannot INHERIT.
* according to Hebrew/Greek version of the word "inherit":
kleronomeo {klay-ron-om-eh'-o}
1) to receive a lot, receive by lot
a) esp. to receive a part of an inheritance, receive as an inheritance, obtain by right of inheritance
b) to be an heir, to inherit
2) to receive the portion assigned to one, receive an allotted portion, receive as one's own or as a possession
3) to become partaker of, to obtain
* how can someone inherit something he cannot enter to?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
This same Jesus who ascended BODILY will SO COME IN LIKE MANNER...meaning...BODILY, not spiritually.
* as i've said earlier, the angel was talking about the manner of ascension... Jesus will come back in like manner how He ascended...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Peejayd, we are created in the IMAGE AND LIKENESS of God. Jesus said, "God is a SPIRIT..." Therefore, WE ARE SPIRITS too. That is why God is called the FATHER of SPIRITS, because we too ARE SPIRITS.
* what?
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
Genesis 1:26
* God is talking about His IMAGE and LIKENESS, not His BEING as a spirit... we are NOT spirits but we HAVE spirits...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Paul had a lot to say about the INNER MAN. In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul says, "I discipline MY BODY." Paul didn't say my spirit that I own, have, or possess--disciplines my body, he said "I." Who is the "I" that Paul is referring to? Paul is talking about the REAL him, who IS A SPIRIT just like God. Just as God the Father is Triune (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) so are we (spirit, soul, and body). Read this:
* no, that's not it...
"Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying, yet our inward man is renewed day by day."
II Corinthians 4:16
* Saint Paul says there is an outward man (which is the physical body we have) and an inward man, which is:
"But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible apparel of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price."
I Peter 3:4
* it is the hidden man of the heart - the inward man...
* as human beings, we have spirit, soul and a physical body... but the Father does NOT have a physical body because He is a spirit (John 4:24), and since He is a spirit, He also does NOT have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Don't let the "your" part confuse you. You ARE a spirit, you don't HAVE one, YOU ARE ONE. But you DO have a soul (mind, will, emotions), and a physical body. You are not a soul or body; you have a soul, you have a body, but you ARE a spirit. That, as well as the anthropomorphic features (head, torso, legs, feet, etc.) that you have are what is created in the image and likeness of God. Soul and spirit are so similar that they have been used almost interchangeably, but they ARE NOT the same. If they were the same then you wouldn't be able to DIVIDE THEM.
* on the contrary, according to the Bible, we are SOULS, not spirits...
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Genesis 2:7
* a human being, in its entirety, is called a soul, a living soul... here's another proof that we are SOULS, and not spirits...
"That aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:"
I Peter 3:20
* Saint Peter says that Noah, his wife, his sons and his son's wives are called "eight souls" saved through water...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
2 Corinthians 3:17 states that the Lord is THE Spirit, not A Spirit. There is a big difference. What God wants us to see here is the contrast between the letter-of-the-law approach to God's commandments, and the way things were done under Moses' administration. Go back up to verse 3 and 8 to get a feel or better contextual understanding.
* then let's go with the context...
"And are not as Moses, who put a veil upon his face, that the children of Israel should not look stedfastly on the end of that which was passing away:
But their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that it is done away in Christ.
But unto this day, whensoever Moses is read, a veil lieth upon their heart.
But whensoever it shall turn to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
II Corinthians 3:13-17
* the fact that Christ is the Lord mentioned who takes away the veil of the old covenant, Christ is depicted as the spirit...
"Who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
II Corinthians 3:6
* the spirit who gives life...
"So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
I Corinthians 15:45
* see anything familiar?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Anyway, celestial bodies is NOT a reference to the anthropomorphic bodies of the saints in Heaven and terrestial bodies is NOT talking about the anthropomorphic bodies of saints on earth. I keep reiterating this to you. Celestial and terrestial is all about the astronomical bodies in the heavens. Celestial points to the sun, moon, stars, but terrestial points to the earth. Why do you think that Paul talks about the sun, moon, and stars in the very next verse? These are the HEAVENLY bodies Paul is talking about, not some body composed of some heavenly substance up in Heaven somewhere or a body composed of earthyly material on earth.
"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."
I Corinthians 15:40
* do you also imply that there are many "earths"? because it was written in plural, BODIES terrestrial... 😉
Re: Part 3
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I JUST noticed something: Paul said, "...we henceforth know NO MAN after the flesh...." This is very important because Paul says the VERY SAME THING about Jesus! Brother Peejayd, if Christ is flesh no more (based on your understanding and interpretation of this Scripture verse) then you MUST come to the same conclusion about other people. Paul said we henceforth know NO MAN (man is a general term and it can stand for people) after the flesh. So it would read like this:[B]"Wherefore we henceforth know no PERSON OR PEOPLE after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more ."
Paul said that he (and whoever else is included in the "We"😉 know NO MAN (i.e., person or people) AFTER THE FLESH. Then in the same breath as it were Paul said the same thing in reference to or about Jesus.
"...even though we have known Christ after the flesh , yet now we know him so no more." ."
Let me break it down for you bro. What you believe is that this Scripture is proof-positive that Jesus ascended to Heaven with a spiritual body because "Christ is flesh no more" right? Wrong. If you conclude that Christ is flesh no more and you base or support that line of thinking/belief on this verse of Scripture, then you have to apply the same logic to other people. Remember Paul said the same thing about other people. He didn't just say that he does not know Christ after the flesh anymore and then stop. He said that he knows NO MAN after the flesh either. So, based on your logic and Bible interpretation ability are you saying that other people are flesh no more? [/B]
I will respond to your last post. Peejayd, you failed to rebut THIS post.
🙂
Part 1
[QUOTE=7120205]Originally posted by peejayd
Isaiah 26:9
With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness
You have a soul (mind, will, emotions). But YOU ARE a spirit.
Job 32:18
For I am full of words;
The spirit within me compels me.
Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man ,
And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.
Bro. Peejayd, as I have previously informed you the Bible uses the word soul and spirit almost interchangeably but they ARE NOT synonymous. Let me rehash a previous post on this subject.
(rehashed post from yesterday)
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit , and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
There is a division or distinction between soul and spirit. However, in Revelation and in other places the word soul is used as if it is referring to a spirit person or entity. But the soul is the mind, will, and emotions; it is the seat of these faculties. I heard a minister give this very good analogy once. He said picture an empty glass sitting on a table. Let's say that the empty glass represents the human body. Now, fill this empty glass with water. Imagine yourself pouring water into this empty glass. Let's say that the water represents the spirit (the real you) and the "wet" or "wetness" characteristic of the water represents the soul. There you have it: the three-fold nature of humankind. When a person dies the water (spirit) along with the wet (soul) departs from the glass (physical body). So when a person dies their spirit and soul leaves their physical body. Imagine pouring the water from the glass. You cannot have water without having water’s “wet” quality too. So you cannot have a spirit without a soul; they go together. But you can analyze them and study them compartmentally.
Peejayd, God's IMAGE and LIKENESS is a reference to what He looks like and God is a Spirit. Image cannot refer to God's clothes, sneakers, hairstyle, or jewelry that He wears (I am being facestious for no other reason than to make a point). So then what else COULD image and likeness mean? I submit to you that God's image and likeness is what He is (His essence) as well as His anatomy.
Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD,
Searching all the inner depths of his heart.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it .
Isaiah 57:16
For I will not contend forever,
Nor will I always be angry;
For the spirit would fail before Me,
And the souls which I have made.
Romans 7:22
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
The inward man is a spirit just like God. God is not a soul, God is a Spirit. In fact, God is called the Father of souls...oops, I mean spirits.
Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
Bro. Peejayd, Although WE HAVE souls (i.e., a mind, will, and emotions) WE ARE spirits just like God. God is called the Father (i.e., originator, source) OF SPIRITS not the Father of souls. This is such a minute distinction, I know, but it is a distinction nonetheless. You are not a soul, you have a soul. You know there are verses in the Bible where people are called "flesh" too. But does that mean that we are flesh? No, we HAVE a fleshly body, but we are not flesh. There is a verse in the Bible where we are called dust too. You have to know HOW God is saying what He says to know what He means at any given time. I know what God is saying and how He is saying it. I just don't pick up my Bible, open it up to a passage, read it and then run out and tell people what it means. I analyze the context to get a feel and understanding for how God is talking to find out what He really means. That is why we have to rightly divide the Word of Truth. I believe the Bible was written in such a way that we have to put forth an effort to put all the pieces of Scripture together to truly interpret it. God wants us to be students of His Word not just cursory readers who peruse the surface only but do not delve into His Word.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit , which are God’s.
Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
The spirit aspect of humankind is the part that is created in God's image and likeness because God is a Spirit. The spirit part is the life-force or animator of the body AS IT WERE. The soul merely goes along with the spirit.
[QUOTE=7120205]Originally posted by peejayd
* there is nowhere in the Bible you can find that Christ entered heaven with flesh and bones, it is only your pre-conceived idea, my friend... the fact that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom in heaven, it is also tantamount of saying that flesh and bones also CANNOT inherit the kingdom in heaven...
Jesus rose from the dead PHYSICALLY. The last description that we have of Jesus is of a Jesus with a PHYSICAL body. The disciples as well as the 500 plus people that SAW Jesus witnessed a Jesus with a PHYSICAL body. I have no reason to believe that Jesus is now a Spirit. I have already explained what Life-giving Spirit means so why do you continue to use it to support your belief? The Bible way is in the mouth of two or three witnesses let ever word be established. The more Scriptures that you can furnish to support what you believe the better.
2 Corinthians 13:1
This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established. ”
John 5:21
For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will .
Yes, Jesus is a Life-giving Spirit because He is a Spirit just like you and me ON THE INSIDE. But on the outside Jesus inhabits a PHYSICAL BODY just like you and me. Can you see this?
1 John 5:10-12
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life .
Life-giving Spirit...this is all it means. Jesus gives eternal life to all who ask Him. Eternal life STARTS in the heart with your spirit being BORN AGAIN. This "life" is IN JESUS, the Life-Giver.
* you sure messed things up, my friend... according to you, we ARE spirits, but we are occupying the physical world... what now?
Peejayd...Peejayd...Peejayd...(sighs and takes a deep, deeeeep breath). We are able to occupy this physical world because we (the spirit us or real us) presently reside, inhabit, or dwell in PHYSICAL BODIES. The moment that this body of ours dies we will no longer be able to occupy this physical world. Our spirit will return to God if we are saved or go to Hell if we die in our sins. I heard a minister give this great analogy about scuba gear. The minister stated that he is an avid scuba diver. He said that underwater that world if you would is called "inner-space." He said if he wants to function in that world as it were he NEEDS a different type of suit if you would otherwise he will not be able to live or function in that environment. The suit he was referring to is his scuba diving suit. Now what does this have to do with physical bodies and spirits occupying this physical world? Your body is your "earth-suit." Without your body you would not be able to function or live in this physical world. Can you see the comparison?
* Enoch and Elijah did not go to heaven with flesh, blood and bones...
I didn't say that they did. I said I THINK because I have heard that they went up to Heaven but then came back down to Abraham's Bosom. Abraham's Bosom was a part of Hades (Hell) that was separated from the torment side of Hell. Read Luke 16:19-31
* according to Hebrew/Greek version of the word "inherit":
kleronomeo {klay-ron-om-eh'-o}
1) to receive a lot, receive by lot
a) esp. to receive a part of an inheritance, receive as an inheritance, obtain by right of inheritance
b) to be an heir, to inherit
2) to receive the portion assigned to one, receive an allotted portion, receive as one's own or as a possession
3) to become partaker of, to obtain
* how can someone inherit something he cannot enter to?
My understanding of the Kingdom of God is that it is not a place per se but a sphere of God's rule. You see technically God OWNS, AND RULES THE UNIVERSE. But yet God's rule is not recognized on earth in its totality. That is why Jesus said to pray, "...Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." Let me illustrate this Kingdom of God concept. When you were young you had to submit to your parents rule as it were right? Your parents rule was not a place per se, limited by walls or physical boundaries right? But yet you knew that even if you were a thousand miles from home, that your parents STILL had dominion OVER YOU right? You knew that no matter where you were your parents must still be respected and obeyed right? Well that is what I mean by my understanding that the Kingdom of God is not necessarily a place per se. You can enter the sphere where you recognize God's rulership in the universe but it is still not a place per se (John 3:3, 5). But the Kingdom of Heaven IS A LITERAL PLACE where God rules. That place is called the THIRD HEAVEN.
2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
* as i've said earlier, the angel was talking about the manner of ascension... Jesus will come back in like manner how He ascended...
His manner was a PHYSICAL, BODILY, ascension though. I believe that there is more to these verses than meets the eye. The angels wanted to convey more than the fact that Jesus ascended. They also wanted to communicate that this SAME Jesus who YOU SEE with your PHYSICAL EYES (not with your spiritual eyes) will so come (i.e., come back or return) in like manner (you will be able to SEE HIM WITH YOUR PHYSICAL EYES BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT PHYSICAL EYES ARE FOR, FOR SEEING PHYSICAL THINGS.)
"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."
I Corinthians 15:40
* do you also imply that there are many "earths"? because it was written in plural, BODIES terrestrial... 😉
I did some research on the internet because if I am wrong I will admit it. I may not want to but I am willing to. I came across this link http://www.jeff-jackson.com/Religion/Essays/Eschatology/PhysicalResurrection.html. Below is an excerpt taken from this link. I have italicized it.
1 Corinthians 15:35-41
1 Co 15:35But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 15:36Fool! What you sow will not come to life unless it dies. 15:37And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare seed—perhaps of wheat or something else. 15:38But God gives it a body just as he planned, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 15:39All flesh is not the same: People have one flesh, animals have another, birds and fish another. 15:40And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. The glory of the heavenly body is one sort and the earthly another. 15:41There is a glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon and another glory of the stars, for star differs from star in glory.
Even in the Gospel accounts, although Jesus' body is still physical, it is not simply reanimated. In Luke 24:30-31[5], Jesus was able to conceal his identity, then vanish from the two disciples' sight, and in John 20:26[6], he was able to enter a locked room. Resurrection also differs from simple resuscitation in another fundamental way. A body that is simply resuscitated, such as Lazarus' (John 11), will eventually die again. But Jesus is now immortal (see on 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 below). He will not die again.
The Corinthians presumably imagined resurrection as a crude resuscitation and were repulsed by the idea. But Paul here explains how there are many kinds of bodies. Note that all these examples are of physical bodies. Ghosts are decidedly absent from his list. Paul explains that the resurrection body rises transformed, analogous to the way a seed is buried and "dies" to grow into a plant. There is continuity of identity between the body of the seed and the body of the plant, but they are two different kinds of bodies. There are many kinds of flesh in living items was well as many kinds of inanimate matter in non-living items (Verse 41 makes it clear that the distinction between heavenly and earthly bodies in verse 40 refers to astronomical items, and not to angels vs. men).
Originally posted by peejayd
[B"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."
I Corinthians 15:40* do you also imply that there are many "earths"? because it was written in plural, BODIES terrestrial... 😉 [/B]
Actually the word celestial could refer to the sun and stars because they are not composed of earthly material or substance. But the phrase terrestrial could include the other planets and the moon because they are also composed of earth-like material. Merriam-Webster online dictionary defines earth as: 3 a : areas of land as distinguished from sea and air b : the solid footing formed of soil : GROUND) This would bring the term terrestrial bodies (plural) into harmony.
Re: Part 1
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[QUOTE=7120205]Originally posted by peejayd[B]Isaiah 26:9
With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousnessYou have a soul (mind, will, emotions). But YOU ARE a spirit.
Job 32:18
For I am full of words;
The spirit within me compels me.Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man ,
And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.Bro. Peejayd, as I have previously informed you the Bible uses the word soul and spirit almost interchangeably but they ARE NOT synonymous. Let me rehash a previous post on this subject.
(rehashed post from yesterday)
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit , and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.There is a division or distinction between soul and spirit. However, in Revelation and in other places the word soul is used as if it is referring to a spirit person or entity. But the soul is the mind, will, and emotions; it is the seat of these faculties. I heard a minister give this very good analogy once. He said picture an empty glass sitting on a table. Let's say that the empty glass represents the human body. Now, fill this empty glass with water. Imagine yourself pouring water into this empty glass. Let's say that the water represents the spirit (the real you) and the "wet" or "wetness" characteristic of the water represents the soul. There you have it: the three-fold nature of humankind. When a person dies the water (spirit) along with the wet (soul) departs from the glass (physical body). So when a person dies their spirit and soul leaves their physical body. Imagine pouring the water from the glass. You cannot have water without having water’s “wet” quality too. So you cannot have a spirit without a soul; they go together. But you can analyze them and study them compartmentally.
Peejayd, God's IMAGE and LIKENESS is a reference to what He looks like and God is a Spirit. Image cannot refer to God's clothes, sneakers, hairstyle, or jewelry that He wears (I am being facestious for no other reason than to make a point). So then what else COULD image and likeness mean? I submit to you that God's image and likeness is what He is (His essence) as well as His anatomy.
Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD,
Searching all the inner depths of his heart.Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it .Isaiah 57:16
For I will not contend forever,
Nor will I always be angry;
For the spirit would fail before Me,
And the souls which I have made.Romans 7:22
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.The inward man is a spirit just like God. God is not a soul, God is a Spirit. In fact, God is called the Father of souls...oops, I mean spirits.
Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?Bro. Peejayd, Although WE HAVE souls (i.e., a mind, will, and emotions) WE ARE spirits just like God. God is called the Father (i.e., originator, source) OF SPIRITS not the Father of souls. This is such a minute distinction, I know, but it is a distinction nonetheless. You are not a soul, you have a soul. You know there are verses in the Bible where people are called "flesh" too. But does that mean that we are flesh? No, we HAVE a fleshly body, but we are not flesh. There is a verse in the Bible where we are called dust too. You have to know HOW God is saying what He says to know what He means at any given time. I know what God is saying and how He is saying it. I just don't pick up my Bible, open it up to a passage, read it and then run out and tell people what it means. I analyze the context to get a feel and understanding for how God is talking to find out what He really means. That is why we have to rightly divide the Word of Truth. I believe the Bible was written in such a way that we have to put forth an effort to put all the pieces of Scripture together to truly interpret it. God wants us to be students of His Word not just cursory readers who peruse the surface only but do not delve into His Word.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit , which are God’s.Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.The spirit aspect of humankind is the part that is created in God's image and likeness because God is a Spirit. The spirit part is the life-force or animator of the body AS IT WERE. The soul merely goes along with the spirit. [/B]
I came across this link on the internet Peejayd.
http://www.handsofdorcas.com/Questions/thru%202004/in_gods_image.htm
Re: Re: Part 1
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I came across this link on the internet Peejayd.
http://www.handsofdorcas.com/Questions/thru%202004/in_gods_image.htm
The fact that you keep quoting your own post leads me to believe that you are vain.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I JUST noticed something: Paul said, "...we henceforth know NO MAN after the flesh...." This is very important because Paul says the VERY SAME THING about Jesus! Brother Peejayd, if Christ is flesh no more (based on your understanding and interpretation of this Scripture verse) then you MUST come to the same conclusion about other people. Paul said we henceforth know NO MAN (man is a general term and it can stand for people) after the flesh.Paul said that he (and whoever else is included in the "We"😉 know NO MAN (i.e., person or people) AFTER THE FLESH. Then in the same breath as it were Paul said the same thing in reference to or about Jesus.
"Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more."
II Corinthians 5:16
* my friend, as Saint Paul had said: they have known Christ after the flesh, yet now they know Christ flesh no more... but they also know no man after the flesh... let's tackle first the context about Christ, the preceding verse...
"And he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again."
II Corinthians 5:15
* this verse qualifies how Christ is flesh no more... Christ died for all and rose again, yes the resurrection was with physical body but as Saint Paul was writing this epistle, Christ was already in heaven and in I Corinthians 5:16, Saint Paul says, "yet NOW" which means the current time of his writing, Christ is flesh no more...
* now, the first part of I Corinthians 5:16, why Saint Paul know no man after the flesh reflects why in the proceeding verse...
"Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new."
II Corinthians 5:17
* Saint Paul is speaking figuratively that if any man is in Christ, they are not after the flesh anymore but is a new creature... the analogy of the verse was Christ ascended in heaven NOT as flesh and the new, reformed man which is in Christ not living in carnal ways...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You have a soul (mind, will, emotions). But YOU ARE a spirit.Bro. Peejayd, as I have previously informed you the Bible uses the word soul and spirit almost interchangeably but they ARE NOT synonymous.
* yes, SOUL and SPIRIT are two different words according to the Bible but they are NOT used interchangeably, the Bible uses soul as soul and spirit as spirit...
* as i have proven to you on the last post, we ARE souls and NOT spirits...
"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having."
Luke 24:39
* Christ Himself said that a spirit has no flesh and bones... always remember that, my friend... we as human beings, have flesh and bones, so we are NOT spirits but we have spirits just like the example i gave...
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Genesis 2:7
"(For my life is yet whole in me, And the spirit of God is in my nostrils);"
Job 27:3
* the "breath of life" that God breathed into the man's nostrils is a spirit...
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Genesis 2:7
"So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
I Corinthians 15:45
* and according also to this verse, the totality, the wholeness or the entirety of a human being is called a soul - a living soul...
"That aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:"
I Peter 3:20
* Noah and his household was called by Saint Peter as "eight souls" who were saved through water... the human being in its entirety is called a soul - NOT spirit...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Peejayd, God's IMAGE and LIKENESS is a reference to what He looks like and God is a Spirit. Image cannot refer to God's clothes, sneakers, hairstyle, or jewelry that He wears (I am being facestious for no other reason than to make a point). So then what else COULD image and likeness mean? I submit to you that God's image and likeness is what He is (His essence) as well as His anatomy.
* what God looks like? now that's a solid misinterpretation, mr friend...
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;"
Colossians 1:15
* Christ is the image of the invisible God... the Father is invisible... the Father is a spirit (John 4:24) that has no flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The inward man is a spirit just like God. God is not a soul, God is a Spirit.
* yes, God is a spirit... not a soul... as i've said, the human being in its entirety is a soul...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
In fact, God is called the Father of souls...oops, I mean spirits.
* God is also called the Father of lights, do you imply that all human beings are lights?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The spirit aspect of humankind is the part that is created in God's image and likeness because God is a Spirit. The spirit part is the life-force or animator of the body AS IT WERE. The soul merely goes along with the spirit.
* now, where was that in the Bible?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus rose from the dead PHYSICALLY. The last description that we have of Jesus is of a Jesus with a PHYSICAL body. The disciples as well as the 500 plus people that SAW Jesus witnessed a Jesus with a PHYSICAL body. I have no reason to believe that Jesus is now a Spirit.
* then you will not believe I Corinthians 15:45? Christ became a spirit...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I have already explained what Life-giving Spirit means so why do you continue to use it to support your belief? The Bible way is in the mouth of two or three witnesses let ever word be established. The more Scriptures that you can furnish to support what you believe the better.
* what? i rely on the Bible, and NOT to your pre-conceived ideas, my friend... as i've said earlier, the "life-giving spirit" is a spirit and a spirit has no flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)... you can't even refute that fact, my friend...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Yes, Jesus is a Life-giving Spirit because He is a Spirit just like you and me ON THE INSIDE. But on the outside Jesus inhabits a PHYSICAL BODY just like you and me. Can you see this?
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
I Timothy 3:16
* Christ is a God manifested in the flesh... Christ was a spirit before He was manifested in the flesh, He just came back to heaven as a spirit He once was...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Life-giving Spirit...this is all it means. Jesus gives eternal life to all who ask Him. Eternal life STARTS in the heart with your spirit being BORN AGAIN. This "life" is IN JESUS, the Life-Giver.
* you keep excluding the fact that the "life-giving spirit" is a spirit...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Peejayd...Peejayd...Peejayd...(sighs and takes a deep, deeeeep breath). We are able to occupy this physical world because we (the spirit us or real us) presently reside, inhabit, or dwell in PHYSICAL BODIES. The moment that this body of ours dies we will no longer be able to occupy this physical world. Our spirit will return to God if we are saved or go to Hell if we die in our sins. I heard a minister give this great analogy about scuba gear. The minister stated that he is an avid scuba diver. He said that underwater that world if you would is called "inner-space." He said if he wants to function in that world as it were he NEEDS a different type of suit if you would otherwise he will not be able to live or function in that environment. The suit he was referring to is his scuba diving suit. Now what does this have to do with physical bodies and spirits occupying this physical world? Your body is your "earth-suit." Without your body you would not be able to function or live in this physical world. Can you see the comparison?I didn't say that they did. I said I THINK because I have heard that they went up to Heaven but then came back down to Abraham's Bosom.
* you DID NOT SAY Enoch and Elijah went to heaven with flesh, blood and bones, but you just THINK they did... well, for starters, I Corinthians 15:50 says they did NOT...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Abraham's Bosom was a part of Hades (Hell) that was separated from the torment side of Hell. Read Luke 16:19-31
* it was a parable, and it was Lazarus, not Enoch and Elijah...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
My understanding of the Kingdom of God is that it is not a place per se but a sphere of God's rule. You see technically God OWNS, AND RULES THE UNIVERSE. But yet God's rule is not recognized on earth in its totality. That is why Jesus said to pray, [B]"...Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." Let me illustrate this Kingdom of God concept. When you were young you had to submit to your parents rule as it were right? Your parents rule was not a place per se, limited by walls or physical boundaries right? But yet you knew that even if you were a thousand miles from home, that your parents STILL had dominion OVER YOU right? You knew that no matter where you were your parents must still be respected and obeyed right? Well that is what I mean by my understanding that the Kingdom of God is not necessarily a place per se. You can enter the sphere where you recognize God's rulership in the universe but it is still not a place per se (John 3:3, 5). But the Kingdom of Heaven IS A LITERAL PLACE where God rules. That place is called the THIRD HEAVEN. [/B]
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you."
John 14:2
* it is a place, my friend...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
His manner was a PHYSICAL, BODILY, ascension though. I believe that there is more to these verses than meets the eye. The angels wanted to convey more than the fact that Jesus ascended. They also wanted to communicate that this SAME Jesus who YOU SEE with your PHYSICAL EYES (not with your spiritual eyes) will so come (i.e., come back or return) in like manner (you will be able to SEE HIM WITH YOUR PHYSICAL EYES BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT PHYSICAL EYES ARE FOR, FOR SEEING PHYSICAL THINGS.)
* then give those verses to support your belief, i have proven through the other translations of Acts 1:11 that the angel was really talking about the manner of Christ's ascension and NOT His physical body...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Even in the Gospel accounts, although Jesus' body is still physical, it is not simply reanimated. In Luke 24:30-31[5], Jesus was able to conceal his identity, then vanish from the two disciples' sight, and in John 20:26[6], he was able to enter a locked room. Resurrection also differs from simple resuscitation in another fundamental way. A body that is simply resuscitated, such as Lazarus' (John 11), will eventually die again. But Jesus is now immortal (see on 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 below). He will not die again.
* we both agree that the resurrection of Jesus was physical, we only argue if Jesus' physical body was in heaven or not...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Corinthians presumably imagined resurrection as a crude resuscitation and were repulsed by the idea. But Paul here explains how there are many kinds of bodies. Note that all these examples are of physical bodies. Ghosts are decidedly absent from his list. Paul explains that the resurrection body rises transformed, analogous to the way a seed is buried and "dies" to grow into a plant. There is continuity of identity between the body of the seed and the body of the plant, but they are two different kinds of bodies. There are many kinds of flesh in living items was well as many kinds of inanimate matter in non-living items (Verse 41 makes it clear that the distinction between heavenly and earthly bodies in verse 40 refers to astronomical items, and not to angels vs. men).Actually the word celestial could refer to the sun and stars because they are not composed of earthly material or substance. But the phrase terrestrial could include the other planets and the moon because they are also composed of earth-like material. Merriam-Webster online dictionary defines earth as: 3 a : areas of land as distinguished from sea and air b : the solid footing formed of soil : GROUND) This would bring the term terrestrial bodies (plural) into harmony.
"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."
I Corinthians 15:44
* there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body... if the spiritual body is for the spiritual world, why do you want to insert a physical body in a spiritual world?
* will Jesus' physical body and all human bodies be able to enter heaven? let us read Jesus' pronouncement...
"And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven."
John 3:13
* NO ONE had ascended into heaven, only Christ... let us take this on a lighter side, has any man seen the Father?
"No man hath seen God at any time ; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
John 1:18
* no man has seen God at ANY time, only Christ... how can Christ see God if He has flesh, blood and bones as a human?
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live ."
Exodus 33:20
* man shall not see God and live... so who else can see God?
"See that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven."
Matthew 18:10
* angels can see God, Christ can see God, but man CANNOT see God... what are the difference? man is made up of flesh, blood and bones...
"Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to do service for the sake of them that shall inherit salvation?"
Hebrews 1:14
* all angels are spirits... so Christ is also a spirit (no flesh, blood and bones) since both the angels and Christ can see God... and man CANNOT see God... it's that plain and simple, my friend... 😉
Re: Part 3
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I JUST noticed something: Paul said, "...we henceforth know NO MAN after the flesh...." This is very important because Paul says the VERY SAME THING about Jesus! Brother Peejayd, if Christ is flesh no more (based on your understanding and interpretation of this Scripture verse) then you MUST come to the same conclusion about other people. Paul said we henceforth know NO MAN (man is a general term and it can stand for people) after the flesh. So it would read like this:[B]"Wherefore we henceforth know no PERSON OR PEOPLE after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more ."
Paul said that he (and whoever else is included in the "We"😉 know NO MAN (i.e., person or people) AFTER THE FLESH. Then in the same breath as it were Paul said the same thing in reference to or about Jesus.
"...even though we have known Christ after the flesh , yet now we know him so no more." ."
Let me break it down for you bro. What you believe is that this Scripture is proof-positive that Jesus ascended to Heaven with a spiritual body because "Christ is flesh no more" right? Wrong. If you conclude that Christ is flesh no more and you base or support that line of thinking/belief on this verse of Scripture, then you have to apply the same logic to other people. Remember Paul said the same thing about other people. He didn't just say that he does not know Christ after the flesh anymore and then stop. He said that he knows NO MAN after the flesh either. So, based on your logic and Bible interpretation ability are you saying that other people are flesh no more? [/B]
Peejayd, why haven't you responded this THIS post? You used this Scripture passage (2 Corinthians 5:16) repeatedly to support your belief that Jesus has a spiritual body. Now that I have explained what this verse means you seem to be elusive. If I am wrong about something I have no problem admitting this because I am not trying to win anything. But are you willing to do the same? Again, my PURPOSE for responding to your posts is to elucidate what the Word is saying. So again: why have you not responded to this post?
Re: Re: Part 3
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Peejayd, why haven't you responded this THIS post? You used this Scripture passage (2 Corinthians 5:16) repeatedly to support your belief that Jesus has a spiritual body. Now that I have explained what this verse means you seem to be elusive. If I am wrong about something I have no problem admitting this because I am not trying to win anything. But are you willing to do the same? Again, my PURPOSE for responding to your posts is to elucidate what the Word is saying. So again: why have you not responded to this post?
Foo Foo Noos 🙄
You take this WAY to seriously.....get a Hobby dude. 👇
Re: Re: Part 3
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Peejayd, why haven't you responded this THIS post? You used this Scripture passage (2 Corinthians 5:16) repeatedly to support your belief that Jesus has a spiritual body. Now that I have explained what this verse means you seem to be elusive. If I am wrong about something I have no problem admitting this because I am not trying to win anything. But are you willing to do the same? Again, my PURPOSE for responding to your posts is to elucidate what the Word is saying. So again: why have you not responded to this post?
* yes, i have... read the first part of my recent post... i explained II Corinthians 5:16 according to its context... 😉