Originally posted by psycho gundam
you're not smart enough to use these analogies. you've perverted the original scenarioyou can clearly see a what...40 degree angle of tension on that cable, so the whole thing about the helicopter and car simply going in opposite directions just on different altitudes is bunk. cap should have been pulled right out of the car, but this isn't the real point.
just calculate the stress his left knee and hands/arms endured for that feat and be done with it
Cap's feet are braced against the VERTICAL seat. This prevents the helicopter from pulling him out.
Again Cap is connected to the car and the car to the ground. So the car must apply a force to prevent it and Cap from being pulled laterally. Also the car was moving away and thus it automatically provided pulling assistance.
It was a durability feat I give you that but not much of a strength feat. Even the helicopter wasn't a real helicopter but rather a mini sized flying machine. It probably weighed at most 2tons and that's being nice. The car looks like it weighs more. It was mostly glass from the look of it.
Originally posted by srankmissingninTo pull anything while remaining still you have to have something to pull against. If Cap was in space then he can't pull a heavier object without actually pulling himself towards the object WITHOUT HAVING SOMETHING TO PULL AGAINST (an unmovable bracing agent). The car was the unmovable bracing agent. And for the car to become such then it had to be either heavier than the helicopter or provide a force on the ground at least equal to that of the helicopter.
All of which is completely irrelevant, because the helicopter isn't attached to the car, it's attached to Captain America. If Captain America just stands there holding one end of the tether and makes no effort to pull against the momentum of the helicopter... he would get pulled out of the car. The helicopter wouldn't pull the car along with him because Captain America happened to be in standing in the back seat. Same is true for a skateboard. Maybe if the Helicopter flew close to the ground and made an attempt to tow Captain America, it could drag him around on a skateboard... but flying above him like that it would just pull him free.You are going to give me a brain aneurysm.
The car was connected to the helicopter through CA. If CA was floating in the air then he couldn't pull the helicopter down because he needed the car to brace against. When you brace against something then you force that something to use a force to prevent it from moving.The car doesn't need to do anything to prevent itself from being pulled or rolled, because it isn't connect to the Helicopter. Captain America is. The helicopter can't pull the car because the mere act of trying would have yanked Cap clean out of the vehicle with minimal resistance and the car would have driven on like nothing had happened.
Horrible physics dude. Having infinite strength still can't stop you from being pulled if you don't the inertia or something to pull against. This is not only basic physics but common sense.That's not the question you asked, now is it? You asked if Captain America hadn't braced himself, if he would have been pulled out of the back of the car. Well, Captain America "bracing" himself isn't what prevent himself from being pulled out of the car, what stopped that from happening is that he was stronger than the force exerted on him by the Helicopter, so the Helicopter was pulled down rather than Captain America being pulled out of the car.
No, he can still try to resist but if he is not connected to an unmovable agent then he will get pulled. Thus making this relevant.If you want to know if Captain America made no effort to resistance the pull of the Helicopter if he would have been dragged out of the car, then the answer is yes... but how is that germane to the current topic of discussion?
You can't add anymore weight to something than your own weight. The only way you can add a downward force is through leaping. I broken a skateboard trying to ollie before. So what you described is not possible, unless you were trying to leap. But what does that got to do with not being pulled?You never skateboarded did you? They aren't that strong. If you put one foot on the nose of the board, and one foot on the tail and then push down with all your weight, you can crack the board in the middle. Snap it clean in two depending on how much wear it has. Cap would be placing a lot of strain on the deck if he was pulling down a freaking helicopter...
Yes really. Incredibly stupid questions.
Do you have the scan? Please post it so that all can see for themselves.That thing doesn't look anything like the a fire hydrant. It's a ventilation duct. If Batman tore apart a fire hydrant... I'd give him props.
Why would they have a water pipe on the roof of a building, that comes out of the rood, makes an inverter u shape... then goes back into the roof a few feet later? And what kind of building has water pipes that a person can fit into? It's some sort of roof top ventilation pipe.
Dude... the pipe isn't .75cm to 1.25cm thick. What are you smoking? The only part of the pipe where the thickness is displayed as anything more than a black line the width of a pencil mark, is an area where the metal is torn and the flap is kind of sticking out... but that's just the surface area of the pipe in some foreshortening, not the thickness of the pipe. That pipe is not half an inch thick you lunatic.
How are they useless? I used a material far weaker than high grade aluminum with a much smaller sized pipe (I didn't use the 1cm estimate but something much smaller) and still got tonnage.Thank you for more useless numbers. Now we know how much it effort it would take someone to stretch a solid piece of aluminum until it breaks. Too bad that isn't what happened here. The duct Batman more tore up was several conjoined pieces, and he didn't pull on it until it started to "neck," he ripped it out of it's fastenings, tearing the metal at the points of the rivets / bolts that held it in place.
Also tension isn't the only force being applied here, you also need to account for shear and torsion.
Originally posted by h1a8
I never claimed it wasn't a superhuman feat (definitely a durability feat). I said that his strength didn't do all of the work. Who cares about anything else? For one, the force of the car had to be greater than the force the helicopter was pulling at. If not, then assuming Cap is perfectly attached to the car (glued like crazy), then helicopter would have pulled both the car and Cap with it. The skateboard analogy is a perfect one. If Cap is glued to the skateboard then him and the skateboard will be pulled unless the skateboard exerts a force on the ground equal to the force the helicopter is pulling with. Otherwise the skateboard will be pulled and start rolling toward the helicopter. Cap can't stop the skateboard from rolling because he is bracing against it but it is connected to the ground with wheels.Hell, a small weak child can pull you with a rope on the skateboard against your will. Think about it?
sure it could if i were secured to the skateboard. but cap wasn't secured. that's what i'm not following. you think that withy one leg he was what, anchored to the car? became no longer independent of it?
and let's assume the velocities of the car and the chopper were equal. would THAT mean it was a pure strength feat for cap?
if the car were travelling SLOWER--that is, the chopper was actually GAINING ON the car--would THAT make it a pure strength feat?
and just how much ARE you attributing to the car and how have you come to said conclusion without mentioning anything about their relative velocities?
i actually do find the discussion interesting, but i still think you're wrong. 😉
Originally posted by h1a8
To pull anything while remaining still you have to have something to pull against. If Cap was in space then he can't pull a heavier object without actually pulling himself towards the object WITHOUT HAVING SOMETHING TO PULL AGAINST
in theory this is true, but it's a rule that is broken often in comics. we've seen hulk pull down massive ships that are above him and dwarf his mass....the ground wouldn't be acting as much of a brace in a case like that--it's pure strength and something that can't be attained in the real world.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
This is how Batman handles his physically superior counter parts:http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/12sd1.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/23ub.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/38be.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/46xl.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/51bw.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/210/60eu.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/248/72zh.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/248/87mw.jpg/This is how Cap does it:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Avengersv384-OnceanInvader03-15.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Avengersv384-OnceanInvader03-16.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Avengersv384-OnceanInvader03-17.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Avengersv384-OnceanInvader03-20.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Avengersv384-OnceanInvader03-21.jpg😎
Originally posted by h1a8
To pull anything while remaining still you have to have something to pull against. If Cap was in space then he can't pull a heavier object without actually pulling himself towards the object WITHOUT HAVING SOMETHING TO PULL AGAINST (an unmovable bracing agent). The car was the unmovable bracing agent. And for the car to become such then it had to be either heavier than the helicopter or provide a force on the ground at least equal to that of the helicopter. The car was connected to the helicopter through CA. If CA was floating in the air then he couldn't pull the helicopter down because he needed the car to brace against. When you brace against something then you force that something to use a force to prevent it from moving. Horrible physics dude. Having infinite strength still can't stop you from being pulled if you don't the inertia or something to pull against. This is not only basic physics but common sense. No, he can still try to resist but if he is not connected to an unmovable agent then he will get pulled. Thus making this relevant. You can't add anymore weight to something than your own weight. The only way you can add a downward force is through leaping. I broken a skateboard trying to ollie before. So what you described is not possible, unless you were trying to leap. But what does that got to do with not being pulled?Do you have the scan? Please post it so that all can see for themselves. How are they useless? I used a material far weaker than high grade aluminum with a much smaller sized pipe (I didn't use the 1cm estimate but something much smaller) and still got tonnage.
So the car aided Captain America in the same capacity that the ground would normally, by giving him an object to push off of. Congratulations for telling everyone something we already know... how insightful. *groan*
The scans posted in here somewhere already.
Originally posted by cdtm
If Grundy had a the level of skill Slade or Azrael have... Bruce would be dead. Luckily he is a low functioning brute, hence the difference between moderately skilled superhuman humans like Slade and Azrael who have trashed Bruce, and super humans with no combat skills to speak off.
Also Grundy's powers change in scope every time he resurrects.
Originally posted by h1a8
None of those feats compare to lifting a portion of a building though.
The comic stated that the shield was reducing the momentum. Meaning, it was easier than Cap using an adamantium shield or his hands.IMO, these feats are almost in the same ballpark with Batman's being a little more PISSY. Just know that Batman has an entire history of hurting beings way outside his physical strength. I would wager more than Cap has of lifting portion of buildings.
Edit: I think that since we don't know what portion of the building he was holding up (it could have been less than 1%) then the feat just turns into an unquantifiable one.
closing that silo doors was a several tons feat just like ripping and supporting that huge statue, the point is that cap always displayed strength level beyond a peak human and easily fits the super human category and therefor watching him holding that building portion is not PIS because he isnt even established to begin with , his power level changes drasticly depending on the situation and what he needs to do just like superman, he got plety of feats that can easily put him in at least as a 5 tonner
the comics didnt state the shield was reducing it, it was implying and i already adressed that part, i showed cap being pushed back while defending with the shield which shows us it doesnt redirect momentum, and i also adressed that part by saying in order for a momentum to exist the object must move, Cap basicallt stopped the structure therefor the momentum was stopped and the only thing he had to work against was the weight itself
if you think the shield redirect momentum please present a feat for the shield doing that, i posted a feat showing it doesnt redirect momentum
those feats are far above batman
cap is always getting hard time fighting enhanced fighters, cap dominates the enhanced fighters, batman hurting superhumans at aquaman lveles are PIS since he showed he cant hurt even guys such as deathstroke or bane which are nothing to aquaman, captain america on the other hand one shots streets and beat the crap out of enhanced guys for his living, therefor his consistent showings show us him being able to beat such guys is not PIS
we can clearly see a huge portion of the construct fell on top of them and you could easily see cap was holding layers on top of layers of that structure, plus if you read the actual event you would know it was a full size construct and it collapsed on them and cap rushed in and held all its weight therefor it was probably 70% of the structure
Originally posted by h1a8
Cap's feet are braced against the [B]VERTICAL seat. This prevents the helicopter from pulling him out.Again Cap is connected to the car and the car to the ground. So the car must apply a force to prevent it and Cap from being pulled laterally. Also the car was moving away and thus it automatically provided pulling assistance.
It was a durability feat I give you that but not much of a strength feat. Even the helicopter wasn't a real helicopter but rather a mini sized flying machine. It probably weighed at most 2tons and that's being nice. The car looks like it weighs more. It was mostly glass from the look of it. [/B]
if the dc character did it this wouldn't be occurring
Originally posted by Juntai
False. Cap isn't a better fighter.
What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean that pure skillwise they are equal? Ok I can along with that but if you mean that Batman is equal or superior to Cap with the SSS then you are wrong.
What is it exactly that makes you think he is equal or superior? There is no evidence to support this, none. Its obvious to anybody who knows both characters well that Cap is one level above Batman.
I think I'm going to actually write a long post on this because this is getting silly.
Originally posted by Deadline
What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean that pure skillwise they are equal? Ok I can along with that but if you mean that Batman is equal or superior to Cap with the SSS then you are wrong.What is it exactly that makes you think he is equal or superior? There is no evidence to support this, none. Its obvious to anybody who knows both characters well that Cap is one level above Batman.
I think I'm going to actually write a long post on this because this is getting silly.
Batman spent ten years of his life traveling the world learning different martial arts styles before taking up the Batman mantle, plus he's an obsessive compulsive that has to master everything he does.
Who wouldn't he be (At the least) on Caps level in pure skill, if not in stats?
Knowing hundreds of Earthly styles is no better than knowing a few dozen.
At some point, shit gets redundant.
How many ways are there to throw a punch or kick, grab a wrist to throw? Not many. A human body is a human body, we all move the same.
Anyway, Cap has the same kinda statements of knowing all Earthly styles or what not. Its useless though.
