Captain America vs Batman(no shield-no gadgets)

Originally posted by namorsubby
If he wrote his words he could've easily just had him say what you claim was meant. Why did he not?

It doesn't matter what he wrote hes the final authority.

Originally posted by namorsubby

Like I said I wanna see some evidence.

I don't care, you're wasting everybodies time and weve been over this before. When I have time I'll write my final piece and done.

No the link doesn't work but you can clearly see at the time they did and there are lots of people who have seen it.

Hell if you're really determined emal Busiek.

So what's on panel doesn't matter more than a supposed contrary opinion that I haven't actually seen? I think how characters are displayed in comics matters most, but thats just me.

They were repeatedly shown to be evenly matched in different times, different stories, and by different authors. Theres no doubt that this is a general concept among the comic community.

Originally posted by Deadline
It doesn't matter what he wrote hes the final authority.

I don't care, you're wasting everybodies time and weve been over this before. When I have time I'll write my final piece and done.

No the link doesn't work but you can clearly see at the time they did and there are lots of people who have seen it.

Hell if you're really determined emal Busiek.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Writer's word means nothing unless its printed in the comics. For example John byrne said that darkseid and galactus are peers in power but in the actual crossover it was nowhere shown. So writer's word means squat.

Not in this case. It was open to interpretation. Its like a passage of the Bible being unclear then God himself telling you what it means and then arguing with him.

Crazy.

Originally posted by namorsubby
So what's on panel doesn't matter more than a supposed contrary opinion that I haven't actually seen?

Even if you saw it you would still make excuses.

i don't know what to say to you, if the link wasn't real people in that thread would have said that the link wasn't working. That link and others have been posted numerous times and lots have people have seen it.

Furthermore you can even go to herochat and ask them, hell even Philosophia will tell you it's true and he usually sides with DC.

Originally posted by namorsubby
I think how characters are displayed in comics matters most, but thats just me.

They were repeatedly shown to be evenly matched in different times, different stories, and by different authors. Theres no doubt that this is a general concept among the comic community.

LOL the power gap between Cap and Batman isn't massive. Batman can keep up for awhile but hes going to eventually lose. None of those fights lasted long enough.

Originally posted by Deadline
Not in this case. It was open to interpretation. Its like a passage of the Bible being unclear then God himself telling you what it means and then arguing with him.

Crazy.

Even if you saw it you would still make excuses.

i don't know what to say to you, if the link wasn't real people in that thread would have said that the link wasn't working. That link and others have been posted numerous times and lots have people have seen it.

Furthermore you can even go to herochat and ask them, hell even Philosophia will tell you it's true and he usually sides with DC.

LOL the power gap between Cap and Batman isn't massive. Batman can keep up for awhile but hes going to eventually lose. None of those fights lasted long enough.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it doesn't. Batman saying that cap could beat him after a long battle doesn't somehow means that cap is going to beat him easily after busiek said something.

Busiek didn't say that Cap would beat him easily. What Busiek stated was that Batman meant that Cap was more skilled and everbody knows Bats doesn't like to admit hes weaker.

On the face of it what Batman said is open to interpretation and can easily mean that Cap will beat him eventually.

Busiek clarified the issue. facepalm

Originally posted by h1a8
False, this rule is hardly ever broken in comics. Hulk has never pulled down a ship with a rope without being braced to something with a vertical component. Only those who can fly can achieve this in comics.

it's def happened, i just can't recall where.....

I'm not attributing a certain amount to the car, just the fact that the car helped in the pulling since Cap braced on the car and the car was moving in the same direction as Cap's pull. Any force (the car) that acts in the same direction as a pull, HELPS the pull.

Also the helicopter was not a real one but rather a smaller flying machine. Probably at most 2tons since it was mostly glass. So it wasn't even one of his best feats at all. [/B]

so you're not attributing a specific amount of force to the car--just SOME unknown additional force? that's....not a terribly strong stance. if both were going at the same speed the car wouldn't help. and the weight of the helicopter is likely less a competing force than the thrust of the chopped. assuming it's only 2 tons, he still had to overcome the inertia of the rockets that were powering it. anyway you look at it it's an impressive feat and clearly requires superhuman strength.

Originally posted by Deadline
Busiek didn't say that Cap would beat him easily. What Busiek stated was that Batman meant that Cap was more skilled and everbody knows Bats doesn't like to admit hes weaker.

On the face of it what Batman said is open to interpretation and can easily mean that Cap will beat him eventually.

Busiek clarified the issue. facepalm

Originally posted by Deadline
Busiek didn't say that Cap would beat him easily. What Busiek stated was that Batman meant that Cap was more skilled and everbody knows Bats doesn't like to admit hes weaker.

On the face of it what Batman said is open to interpretation and can easily mean that Cap will beat him eventually.

Busiek clarified the issue. facepalm

yeah, that quote from bats was pretty uncharacteristic and pretty telling imo, even without the clarification. i think it would be a great fight and that the gap in skill is nowhere as great as some think, but cap is better.

Serioulsy though I'm about to kill this and put it to bed. I don't think there is a massive gap between Batman and Cap but it's pretty obvious that Cap is Batman with a small upgrade. In terms of stamina and healing though its quite substantial.

Originally posted by cdtm

And I believe the DC vs Marvel happened when Cap had a temp upgrade in strength.

Prove it. Because your statement is wrong and Batman was on Venom times 10.....LOL. ( I too just made a incorrect statement.) But anyone can easily make them as you just did...LOL)

You probably don't like that Cap hits sent Bruce flying in the air, while Bruce did not. 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
it's def happened, i just can't recall where.....

so you're not attributing a specific amount of force to the car--just SOME unknown additional force? that's....not a terribly strong stance. if both were going at the same speed the car wouldn't help. and the weight of the helicopter is likely less a competing force than the thrust of the chopped. assuming it's only 2 tons, he still had to overcome the inertia of the rockets that were powering it. anyway you look at it it's an impressive feat and clearly requires superhuman strength.

The helicopter weighs about 2 tons. The vertical component of the force of the thrusters equals the helicopter's weight. This is because the helicopter stayed at the same altitude (the acceleration in the vertical direction is 0).

So even if the car didn't help in the pulling then all Cap achieved was a 2 ton feat at best. This is still superhuman but not one of his best at all.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Jesus Christ. "Bracing" himself against the seat, doesn't attach him to the car, it simply affords him extra leverage. [b]Maybe if the helicopter was level with the car, and was being dragged, you would have point... but it wasn't, the helicopter is above the car which means Captain America having a leg on the seat does absolutely nothing to prevent himself from being pulled free, because it's an upwards pull

If you were on a train, and you tried to pull something from outside the train and weren't strong enough to do it... you would get yanked off the f#cking train. [/B]

Your train scenario is wrong. You won't get pulled out of the train if you are braced well enough or are perfectly attached to the train. Even not, then you definitely can pull more (even if it is a little more) in the train than outside the train. But you can't pull a truck or anything else super massive since you arm socket will be pull out.

Read my reply to Leonidas though.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
the helicopter in the scene appears to me to be a slandered sikorsky, so i found the specs of a close representative, the sikorsky S-52:

"General characteristics

Crew: 2
Capacity: 2 troops
Length: 39 ft 2½ in (11.95 m)
Main rotor diameter: 33 ft in (10 m)
Height: 9 ft 9½ in (2.99 m m)
Empty weight: 1650 lb (749 kg)
Gross weight: 2700 lb (1226 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Franklin 6V6-245-B16F (Military O-425-1) air-cooled flat-6 piston engine, 245 hp (186 kW)

Performance

Maximum speed: 110 mph (176 km/h)
Cruise speed: 96 mph (154 km/h)
Range: 415 miles (668 km)
Service ceiling: 15,500 ft (4,724 m)
Rate of climb: 1,300 ft/min (6.6 m/s)"

guns/ammunition weight can be ignored

Originally posted by psycho gundam
and cap's arms didn't get torn out cause the car did it and not him, gotchya.

what you're saying is true, but not in comics as cap's body (x factor) is not something that physics/physiology/logic can account for in this case, so you're wasting your time.

I think skill is a wash but Cap is physically superior (not by a whole lot though). Cap wins a majority. But Batman can win 1 or 2 with some lucky strikes, lucky combos, and pressure points.

Originally posted by h1a8
I already agreed that the car didn't help in the pull since they were both moving the same speed and the same direction. But if they were moving in the opposite directions then it would have helped.

Your train scenario is wrong. You won't get pulled out of the train if you are braced well enough or are perfectly attached to the train. Even not, then you definitely can pull more (even if it is a little more) in the train than outside the train. But you can't pull a truck or anything else super massive since you arm socket will be pull out.

Read my reply to Leonidas though.

2700lb. is less than 2 tons which is 4000lb.

Cap is not only strong but very durable. But I agreed with Leonidas on the car not helping, read my reply.

it's less than a ton but it was in flight and the car was going the opposite direction. cap's knees, shoulders, and hands are being downplayed.

Originally posted by h1a8
But I agreed with Leonidas on the car not helping, read my reply.

hallelujah! that wasn't so hard. 😐

Originally posted by psycho gundam
you can see how much stress his body can take, this type of thing is a prerequisite for you know...lifting heavy objects.

it's less than a ton but it was in flight and the car was going the opposite direction. cap's knees, shoulders, and hands are being downplayed.

Leonidas said they were going in the same direction (not opposite). So all Cap had to do is overcome the upward force of the helicopter (which was equal to it's weight).

I'm not saying this isn't a superhuman feat. It is. But it's not out of Batman's league by a whole lot (maybe not at all).

Cap still wins, no one is arguing that.

we're not done

"Powerplant: 1 × Franklin 6V6-245-B16F (Military O-425-1)
air-cooled flat-6 piston engine, 245 hp (186 kW)

Rate of climb: 1,300 ft/min (6.6 m/s)"

if we throw out the direction thing, he still overcame the lift of the helicopter
with his arms/body when he pulled on the cable. he was the one that made the cable taught

Im new to this so maybe I have some bad info but according to the superherodb site it is going to be a pretty close fight, if not then it looks like it goes to batman. They have him alot stronger then cap and his inteligence is much higher. They do give speed,duribility, and power to cap though. I think it would be a pretty badass fight either way but I gotta go with batman.

Originally posted by Deadline
Not in this case. It was open to interpretation. Its like a passage of the Bible being unclear then God himself telling you what it means and then arguing with him.

Crazy.

Even if you saw it you would still make excuses.

i don't know what to say to you, if the link wasn't real people in that thread would have said that the link wasn't working. That link and others have been posted numerous times and lots have people have seen it.

Furthermore you can even go to herochat and ask them, hell even Philosophia will tell you it's true and he usually sides with DC.

LOL the power gap between Cap and Batman isn't massive. Batman can keep up for awhile but hes going to eventually lose. None of those fights lasted long enough.

Realizing that there is clearly a difference between what you say batman meant and what he actually said is not nearly the same as "making excuses".

They fought for hours in one of those fights. Everything shown on panel contradicts how you feel bruce and steve match up. Not just in these cross overs, but also in their comic appearances.

theyre always down to be so comparable in these match ups because it's apparent in their comic potrayal.