Originally posted by psycho gundami would leave out the acrobatics part since it is mention several times that Batman doesnt use acrobatics that much and leans more on strength and precision.
the entire forum went over that years ago.cap uses: jodo, boxing/kickboxing, all infused with his own acrobatics and his shield style.
batman is more heavily into a fusion of various japanese/chinese fighting arts infused with acrobatics and his weaponry, basically ninjutsu
cap seems more "limited"
Yes.
In a dual, Nightwing or Robin will vault off a wall to deliver a jumpkick..
While Batman will simply step aside and counter.
One of my favorite Batman fights happened around the time of Underworld Unleashed in a Robin comic, and Bats won against a martial artists Tim couldn't handle without throwing a single punch. All he did was casually slip each attack, until his opponent slipped off a ledge, where Bats had to save him.
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Here are the 3 times Batman and Captain America faced off on panel.
(grant it, they're crossovers, but at-least it's a rough idea)
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Writers: Ron Marz/Peter David (DC vs Marvel)
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Writer: John Byrne (Batman & Captain America)
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Writer: Kurt Busiek (JLA/Avengers)
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Originally posted by leonidasFalse, this rule is hardly ever broken in comics. Hulk has never pulled down a ship with a rope without being braced to something with a vertical component. Only those who can fly can achieve this in comics.
in theory this is true, but it's a rule that is broken often in comics. we've seen hulk pull down massive ships that are above him and dwarf his mass....the ground wouldn't be acting as much of a brace in a case like that--it's pure strength and something that can't be attained in the real world.
Originally posted by leonidas
sure it could if i were secured to the skateboard. but cap wasn't secured. that's what i'm not following. you think that withy one leg he was what, anchored to the car? became no longer independent of it?and let's assume the velocities of the car and the chopper were equal. would THAT mean it was a pure strength feat for cap?
if the car were travelling SLOWER--that is, the chopper was actually GAINING ON the car--would THAT make it a pure strength feat?
and just how much ARE you attributing to the car and how have you come to said conclusion without mentioning anything about their relative velocities?
i actually do find the discussion interesting, but i still think you're wrong. 😉
I'm not attributing a certain amount to the car, just the fact that the car helped in the pulling since Cap braced on the car and the car was moving in the same direction as Cap's pull. Any force (the car) that acts in the same direction as a pull, HELPS the pull.
Also the helicopter was not a real one but rather a smaller flying machine. Probably at most 2tons since it was mostly glass. So it wasn't even one of his best feats at all.
Originally posted by srankmissingninSo the car aided Captain America in the same capacity that the ground would normally, by giving him an object to push off of. Congratulations for telling everyone something we already know... how insightful. *groan*
The scans posted in here somewhere already.
If Grundy had a the level of skill Slade or Azrael have... Bruce would be dead. Luckily he is a low functioning brute, hence the difference between moderately skilled superhuman humans like Slade and Azrael who have trashed Bruce, and super humans with no combat skills to speak off.
Also Grundy's powers change in scope every time he resurrects.
No the Car was moving in the direction of the pull so it helped. Also if the car didn't move (was stationary) while Cap pulled the helicopter then the feat reduces to one where Cap is pulling with a force less than pulling on a stationary car. This is because the helicopter isn't strong enough to pull the car and thus it takes less force to pull it down.
Originally posted by red sabre
closing that silo doors was a several tons feat just like ripping and supporting that huge statue, the point is that cap always displayed strength level beyond a peak human and easily fits the super human category and therefor watching him holding that building portion is not PIS because he isnt even established to begin with , his power level changes drasticly depending on the situation and what he needs to do just like superman, he got plety of feats that can easily put him in at least as a 5 tonnerthe comics didnt state the shield was reducing it, it was implying and i already adressed that part, i showed cap being pushed back while defending with the shield which shows us it doesnt redirect momentum, and i also adressed that part by saying in order for a momentum to exist the object must move, Cap basicallt stopped the structure therefor the momentum was stopped and the only thing he had to work against was the weight itself
if you think the shield redirect momentum please present a feat for the shield doing that, i posted a feat showing it doesnt redirect momentum
those feats are far above batman
cap is always getting hard time fighting enhanced fighters, cap dominates the enhanced fighters, batman hurting superhumans at aquaman lveles are PIS since he showed he cant hurt even guys such as deathstroke or bane which are nothing to aquaman, captain america on the other hand one shots streets and beat the crap out of enhanced guys for his living, therefor his consistent showings show us him being able to beat such guys is not PIS
we can clearly see a huge portion of the construct fell on top of them and you could easily see cap was holding layers on top of layers of that structure, plus if you read the actual event you would know it was a full size construct and it collapsed on them and cap rushed in and held all its weight therefor it was probably 70% of the structure
The shield redirects momentum when it ricochets off walls without loss of momentum. Also it absorbs kinetic energy (which is 1/2mv^2). This means it slows the velocity of objects down. So the comic was clearly stating that the shield was helping by slowing the momentum.
You are preaching to the choir. I know Cap has feats beyond what any human can do. So does Batman. But there are levels of feats where one can argue PIS. For example, just because Cap has over 50 Super human feats doesn't mean it aint PIS if he suddenly busts a planet with a punch. Cap at best is a 5-8 tonner. Batman at best is about a 2-4 tonner. But that doesn't mean they don't have greater feats. It's just we can question those feats.
Originally posted by h1a8
No the Car was moving in the direction of the pull so it helped. Also if the car didn't move (was stationary) while Cap pulled the helicopter then the feat reduces to one where Cap is pulling with a force less than pulling on a stationary car. This is because the helicopter isn't strong enough to pull the car and thus it takes less force to pull it down.
And since Cap is not attached to the car in any way, shape or form, the fact that the car is moving is completely irrelevant. Captain America pulled the helicopter down with one swift jerk, he didn't hold the line while the car dragged the helicopter... because he can't... because he isn't attacked the car... and as such he would have been pulled out of the car if he attempted such a tactic.
Be smarter. Please.
Originally posted by psycho gundamif the dc character did it this wouldn't be occurring
What does D.C. have to do with anything? I'm not D.C. bias. Sure I support Superman the most. But that has nothing to do with D.C. Superman is the strongest fastest (besides flash) herald level being in comics. This alone makes him nigh unstoppable. I said billions of times that if Thor had Superman's speed he would be the most powerful herald and would beat any herald (even Superman) 10/10. Does that sound D.C. bias or just plain speed bias?
Also, I agreed that Cap beats Batman for a majority in this thread, and that he's better than Batman in everyway except skill (they are equals IMO). My argument is that batman will make it a fight and could win at least a couple due to pressure points or a lucky hit combo.
Also, I love Spidey more than any character. I onced argued more than 10 pages that he beats WW. I kid you not.
I argued for many pages when this thread came out that Cap is better than Bats in everyway (even skill) and that he beats Bats 10/10. Almost the whole forum was arguing against me.
I also love SS and believe he beats Superman and any other herald if fighting at his best.
I believe Daredevil beats Batman for a large majority.
So me being D.C. bias is BS. Give me a character with great speed, strength, and skill and I will argue them against any company.
Top characters I support:
1. Flash/Zoom
2. SS
3. Doomsday
4. WW
5. Superman
6. Spider-man
7. Gladiator
What do this character's have in common?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And since Cap is not attached to the car in any way, shape or form, the fact that the car is moving is completely irrelevant. Captain America pulled the helicopter down with one swift jerk, he didn't hold the line while the car dragged the helicopter... because he can't... because he isn't attacked the car... and as such he would have been pulled out of the car if he attempted such a tactic.Be smarter. Please.
Cap braced against the car making him attached to the car. He jerked the helicopter while being braced against the car. If he wasn't braced against anything then he couldn't pull the helicopter down at all.
If you were on a train braced to the wall then you could pull something outside the train in the direction the train is moving with more force than you could if you stood on the ground. This is because the train is helping you.
Originally posted by h1a8
Cap braced against the car making him attached to the car. He jerked the helicopter while being braced against the car. If he wasn't braced against anything then he couldn't pull the helicopter down at all.If you were on a train braced to the wall then you could pull something outside the train in the direction the train is moving with more force than you could if you stood on the ground. This is because the train is helping you.
Jesus Christ. "Bracing" himself against the seat, doesn't attach him to the car, it simply affords him extra leverage. Maybe if the helicopter was level with the car, and was being dragged, you would have point... but it wasn't, the helicopter is above the car which means Captain America having a leg on the seat does absolutely nothing to prevent himself from being pulled free, because it's an upwards pull
If you were on a train, and you tried to pull something from outside the train and weren't strong enough to do it... you would get yanked off the f#cking train.
the helicopter in the scene appears to me to be a slandered sikorsky, so i found the specs of a close representative, the sikorsky S-52:
"General characteristics
Crew: 2
Capacity: 2 troops
Length: 39 ft 2½ in (11.95 m)
Main rotor diameter: 33 ft in (10 m)
Height: 9 ft 9½ in (2.99 m m)
Empty weight: 1650 lb (749 kg)
Gross weight: 2700 lb (1226 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Franklin 6V6-245-B16F (Military O-425-1) air-cooled flat-6 piston engine, 245 hp (186 kW)
Performance
Maximum speed: 110 mph (176 km/h)
Cruise speed: 96 mph (154 km/h)
Range: 415 miles (668 km)
Service ceiling: 15,500 ft (4,724 m)
Rate of climb: 1,300 ft/min (6.6 m/s)"
guns/ammunition weight can be ignored
Originally posted by cdtm
So basically three different writers agree they're close.And I believe the DC vs Marvel happened when Cap had a temp upgrade in strength.
Originally posted by namorsubby
It's pretty clear to me that these writers know comics and how Batman and Captain America compare within them.
facepalm
What should be clear is that three different writers were forced to conform to an editorial mandate that allowed DC's largest and most popular IP to save face and not get played off like a schmuck. There are reasons we don't allow crossovers, because of editorial bs that makes Spider-man vs Superboy nonsense possible(and yes Captain America vs Batman falls into that category) is just one of them.
Brubaker (who has written Cap and Batman), and Busiek (who has written JLA and Avengers) have both gone on record in interviews to say that Captain America is much more than just Batman in an American flag.
I dont think having batman say "its conceivable you could beat me" is the same as admitting eventual defeat.
How the actual fights turned out on panel really is more important than anything else. It reflects how those who created the scenes envision this fight happening. In every one both combatants were closely matched, even fighting for hours in one. also another had one combatant projecting that could even fight for much longer......"days".
Originally posted by cdtm
Batman spent ten years of his life traveling the world learning different martial arts styles before taking up the Batman mantle, plus he's an obsessive compulsive that has to master everything he does.Who wouldn't he be (At the least) on Caps level in pure skill, if not in stats?
LOL the thing is I'm kinda busy right now but thats nothing I can completely demoloish that response.
Originally posted by Mr Master
----------------------------------------------------Here are the 3 times Batman and Captain America faced off [b]on panel
.(grant it, they're crossovers, but at-least it's a rough idea)
----------------------------------------------------
Writers: Ron Marz/Peter David (DC vs Marvel)
----------------------------------------------------
Writer: John Byrne (Batman & Captain America)
----------------------------------------------------
Writer: Kurt Busiek (JLA/Avengers)
---------------------------------------------------- [/B]
Not to mention that Brubaker said that Cap was superior to Batman and Busiek confirmed that Batman meant that Cap was a better fighter.
Originally posted by cdtm
So basically three different writers agree they're close.And I believe the DC vs Marvel happened when Cap had a temp upgrade in strength.
No at leat two writers thingk there superior include Brubaker and thats three.
Originally posted by namorsubby
I dont think having batman say "its conceivable you could beat me" is the same as admitting eventual defeat.How the actual fights turned out on panel really is more important than anything else. It reflects how those who created the scenes envision this fight happening. In every one both combatants were closely matched, even fighting for hours in one. also another had one combatant projecting that could even fight for much longer......"days".
Busiek confirmed Batman meant that Cap was a better fighter.
so saying it's conceivable that someone could defeat you is the same thing as saying someone is a better fighter? I dont think so.
If he meant for batman to mean cap is a better fighter than why did he not simply have him say so in those words or some synonomous phrase? because what you say he meant and the meaning of what he says are not one and the same. Id like to see a quote.
Its clear to see none of these fights actually display cap to be a superior fighter either.
Also the fact that batman says it would take a very long time seems more like him acknowleding a stamina disadvantage rather than a skill disadvantage.
.
Originally posted by namorsubby
so saying it's conceivable that someone could defeat you is the same thing as saying someone is a better fighter? I dont think so.If he meant for batman to mean cap is a better fighter than why did he not simply have him say so in those words or some synonomous phrase? because what you say he meant and the meaning of what he says are not one and the same. Id like to see a quote.
Its clear to see none of these fights actually display cap to be a superior fighter either.
Also the fact that batman says it would take a very long time seems more like him acknowleding a stamina disadvantage rather than a skill disadvantage.
.
Forget what Batman said, Busiek the guy who wrote that stated that what Batman meant was that Cap was a better fighter. Period.
Originally posted by Silent Master
Chuckg
Don't you think Batman should be able to defeat Captain America by using his leopard blow?kurtbusiek
[b]No, not particularly.Chuckg
That really should be interpreted that Batman thinks he'd beat Cap, doesn't it, since Batman is the far more skilled fighter?kurtbusiek
You can interpret it how you like, but my intent was that Batman was noting that Cap is the more skilled.kdb
http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=39153878&start=0&tstart=0
It's from page 45 [/B]
