Originally posted by Deadline
No actually I saw it just fine. You're missing the point, stamina is a factor that will give him an advantage. Thats all the point I'm trying to make.Again not getting into a semantic debate with you. Heres the point I'm trying to make... its caps skill plus enhancements which will enable him to win. One of his enhancements is stamina. If his stamina helps him to win then hes superior.
Not it doesn't. Again Batman was breathing heavily and Cap wasn't. Batman was getting tired Cap wasn't, which means that if the fight had continued Cap would have probably won.
Again Busiek clarfied that he thought Cap was superior to Batman.
No he doesn't!
I'm aware of them but just because he states that doesn't make him superior. A person can exhibit martial arts without saying anything for example Cap has held his own against a cosmic god called Korvac. The only way he could have done that was through martial arts and hes been doing stuff like that more than batman has and for much longer.
Batman has proven his skill much more extensively in comics. How so? By exhibiting more style diversity, training, and utilization. therefore, he is more skilled.
Originally posted by namorsubby
If he wrote his words he could've easily just had him say what you claim was meant. Why did he not? Like I said I wanna see some evidence. That link did not take me to the qoutes you wrote out.
Speak of the devil, I stumbled onto this thread. Wasn't even looking such, but here it is:
Kurt Busiek[quote]Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
I suspect that DC would have outright refused to let Batman lose a fight to Cap. Hence, all we get in the actual confrontation is a grudging admission by Bruce that he might lose. But at least that was in-character.
But yeah, only grudgingly admitting it is very much in character.
Batman would have fought anyway, if he felt there was a point (after all, even if you're slowly losing, there's always the chance Superman will chunk the guy on the head with a rock), but it made more sense to him to suggest they not bother dick-measuring and go solve a mystery -- thus changing the focus from fighting (Cap's area of expertise) to detective (Batman's).
And Cap's smart enough to agree. He's results oriented.[/quote]
Looks to me like he's citing Cap an edge on endurance. Otherwise, he wouldn't "slowly lose". Not if skill was the determining factor.
Writer arguments are interesting, but I'd like to hear posters here argue "why", exactly, one is more skilled over the other.
They both represent the pinnacle of martial artists, and both have performed with the best of the best in their universe... I think it's safe to say they're both in the top 1% of martial artists in comics. To go any further and pick a definitive best of the best, that I'm not seeing...
Wait! Didn't Cap survived for years being frozen in ice? If you ask me, that alone gives Cap an edge against Bats.A normal human exposed to cold temperatures for long periods of time will result into Hypothermia.Yet Cap survived it.I don't think Bats can survive being frozen for days or months even.Just saying.
Originally posted by Igniz
Wait! Didn't Cap survived for years being frozen in ice? If you ask me, that alone gives Cap an edge against Bats.A normal human exposed to cold temperatures for long periods of time will result into Hypothermia.Yet Cap survived it.I don't think Bats can survive being frozen for days or months even.Just saying.
this
Originally posted by namorsubby
So the writer says himself that he was in no way coerced into making the fight so evenly matched, but that it simply was how he thought the fight would go. the actual facts are always in direct contradiction with sranks opinion.
Serioulsy what the hell are you talking about now? Weve shown you numerous times that Busiek said that he thought Cap was better, what on earth are you talking about now?
How can you find my post and qoute it but not be able to read whats on this very page?
Originally posted by cdtm
Speak of the devil, I stumbled onto this thread. Wasn't even looking such, but here it is:DC made no such demand. That's how I wanted to play the fight, and everyone involved liked it.
But yeah, only grudgingly admitting it is very much in character.
Batman would have fought anyway, if he felt there was a point (after all, even if you're slowly losing, there's always the chance Superman will chunk the guy on the head with a rock), but it made more sense to him to suggest they not bother dick-measuring and go solve a mystery -- thus changing the focus from fighting (Cap's area of expertise) to detective (Batman's).
And Cap's smart enough to agree. He's results oriented.
Looks to me like he's citing Cap an edge on endurance. Otherwise, he wouldn't "slowly lose". Not if skill was the determining factor.
Writer arguments are interesting, but I'd like to hear posters here argue "why", exactly, one is more skilled over the other.
They both represent the pinnacle of martial artists, and both have performed with the best of the best in their universe... I think it's safe to say they're both in the top 1% of martial artists in comics. To go any further and pick a definitive best of the best, that I'm not seeing... [/QUOTE]
Check the link or simply look at the quoted statement provided above. Busiek said he wasn't pressured to make the fight so evenly matched by anyone, but rather that this is how he thought the fight would go. Look with your eyes.
Originally posted by cdtm
Looks to me like he's citing Cap an edge on endurance. Otherwise, he wouldn't "slowly lose". Not if skill was the determining factor.
Well you didn't read it properly because he said fighting was Caps area of expertise. Stamina is just one advantage.
Originally posted by namorsubby
Check the link or simply look at the quoted statement provided above. Busiek said he wasn't pressured to make the fight so evenly matched by anyone, but rather that this is how he thought the fight would go. Look with your eyes.
Um no what he said was that he wasn't pressurised into not making Batman lose. Hell he was even asked that very question. To make matters worse heres what he said on that very page you read.
Batman would have fought anyway, if he felt there was a point (after all, even if you're slowly losing, there's always the chance Superman will chunk the guy on the head with a rock), but it made more sense to him to suggest they not bother dick-measuring and go solve a mystery -- thus changing the focus from FIGHTING (Cap's area of expertise) to detective (Batman's).
On that very page Busiek just stated that he thought that Cap was a superior fighter. Don't try to tell me when Busiek stated that fighting was Caps area of expertise he was saying Cap was equal?
Also if you look at that link it was stated that Cap decimated Prometheus who had downloaded Batmans skill. If on panel evidence contradicts what the writer said we can reject it, and on-panel evidence indicate that Cap is much superior. No I'm not contradicting myself because what Batman said was open to interpretation and ambigous Cap decimating Prometheus wasn't.
Personally don't think Cap would decimate Bats but they wouldn't be fighting for hours either.
When you say "slowly lose", that's an admission they're very, very close.
It'd be like Ali and Fraiser. Yeah, Ali was the better fighter, but they match up well enough where Fraiser had a real chance to beat him, and in a best of 100 would probably take his fair share.
And it's still only writers opinion, which would remain true if someone found a few big name writers who believed Batman could win a majority.
Still waiting for someone to start talking skills using comics and not writer quotes...
Originally posted by cdtm
When you say "slowly lose", that's an admission they're very, very close.
Sure you're not trying to milk this close thing? At any rate Busiek thinks hes superior and also made him own Prometheus, which implies the gap is actually bigger.
The fact of the matter is writers are under pressure to make Batman look good.
Originally posted by cdtm
And it's still only writers opinion, which would remain true if someone found a few big name writers who believed Batman could win a majority.Still waiting for someone to start talking skills using comics and not writer quotes...
Um Brubaker thats two. In fact there isn't anyone in the history of comics or even films that thinks Batman is equal to Cap.
Originally posted by Deadline
Sure you're not trying to milk this close thing? At any rate Busiek thinks hes superior and also made him own Prometheus, which implies the gap is actually bigger.
Batman was owning Prometheus too, forcing him to resort to cheap tactics.. But Batman won with an even cheaper one. 😄
Which doesn't take away from the fact in straight h2h, Batman was winning.
The fact of the matter is writers are under pressure to make Batman look good.
And they're not under pressure to make Cap look good? I was arguing for Cap having impressive feats that shouldn't be written off as PIS in another thread, but can understand why so many of his feats get written off.. The "pwned" thread with scans of Cap knocking Hulk out is just one example of why.
Um Brubaker thats two. In fact there isn't anyone in the history of comics or even films that thinks Batman is equal to Cap.
Joe Casey claimed Superman could have beaten down Imperiex. Writers can be fanboys too. They're only human, after all.
Which is why arguing from the comic itself is how it's done, because you might get 10 writers who think Wolverine can beat Danny Rand in straight h2h, never having read much of Danny's history or outright dismissing it as opposed to how they would have written the character.
Busiek said himself that he was not pressured to make batman look good and that everyone involved like the way the fight transpired, but these guys are still trying to impress there own contradicting views upon writers.smh
On panel evidence is tops anyway, period. Thats why bruce is more skilled and why cap had more stamina.
Originally posted by namorsubby
Busiek said himself that he was not pressured to make batman look good and that everyone involved like the way the fight transpired, but these guys are still trying to impress there own contradicting views upon writers.smhOn panel evidence is tops anyway, period. Thats why bruce is more skilled and why cap had more stamina.
So... Deadline posting direct quotes from the writer = "trying to impress [his] own contradicting views upon writers."?
🙄
Outside of irrelevant crossovers where Cyclops beats Batman even when the fight starts with Cyclops in a rear naked choke, on panel evidence shows Captain America to be a stronger, faster, more skilled fighter with much higher stamina.
you should actually take the time to look at what busiek said and compare it with what deadline is saying before you begin to type.
He said himself that no one coerced him into making the fight so even, but that it was how he felt the fight would be, and that everyone involved liked and therefore approved of how the fight transpired. You and deadline claim the opposite.
comics clearly show that bruce is physically comparable, and more skilled. Your own unprovable and unfounded imaginary estimations and calculations based on comic illustrations say otherwise, but theyre absurd and not based in fact whatsoever.
Originally posted by namorsubby
you should actually take the time to look at what busiek said and compare it with what deadline is saying before you begin to type.He said himself that no one coerced him into making the fight so even, but that it was how he felt the fight would be, and that everyone involved liked and therefore approved of how the fight transpired. You and deadline claim the opposite.
comics clearly show that bruce is physically comparable, and more skilled. Your own unprovable and unfounded imaginary estimations and calculations based on comic illustrations say otherwise, but theyre absurd and not based in fact whatsoever.
He also said that Captain America was more skilled than Batman... but you ignored that? Also, it's not good business practice to toss the buck onto the editorial team when you are still in good standing and working with the companies in question but the influence of the editorial teams at both Marvel and DC are both well documented form the perspectives of disgruntled former employes. Warren Ellis even lamented about it recently and a writer of his caliber gets more clout and creative freedom than Busiek does.
Take the blinders off, you aren't a horse. The last 40 something pages of this thread are a testament to the fact that Batman's physical feats are not comparable to Captain America's. You are sorely alone in your believe, I mean H1 was arguing about something that no one really understood, but even he came around eventually. If you want to move on to a comparison of skill, only to be embarrassed yet again, I'm sure we will all be happy to oblige you.
You act as if you've actually compared with feats with me and proven anything. Youre still sticking to your feat war statement then? Even though you never once accepted any offer to compare but rather explained away anything I posted while making up imaginary calculations for feats OTHER posters displayed on caps behalf?
When you make your own numbers up for indefinite, unquantifiable comic book pictures and then do the same for feats you argue against, you can't help but be "right"(completely deluded). You just conclude that youre feats equal a bigger imaginary number than what others have shown based on nothing even close to concrete fact.smh
The fact is that they have many visually similar physical feats and thats what makes them comparable physically. Trying to claim you can determine exact numbers based on what you see in a comic book is absurd. I didnt say equal, and I didn't say superior I said comparable. it's a much more reasonable term when dealing with drawn images you can't possibly how to quantify being that you have no real info to go off in order to determine finite measurements.