Originally posted by Deadline
Absolute nonsense, without the SSS he is Batman.
Gotta disagree here. As skilled as Rogers is, he lacks several pounds to face Batman in a fair fight. Without the mental enhancement Steve gets from the serum I see Batman outsmarting him during the fight, he has next to no chance in that kind of combat.
Originally posted by Bentley
Gotta disagree here. As skilled as Rogers is, he lacks several pounds to face Batman in a fair fight. Without the mental enhancement Steve gets from the serum I see Batman outsmarting him during the fight, he has next to no chance in that kind of combat.
I see what you're trying to do. Stop trying to troll.
Originally posted by cdtm
Batman was owning Prometheus too, forcing him to resort to cheap tactics.. But Batman won with an even cheaper one. 😄Which doesn't take away from the fact in straight h2h, Batman was winning.
Cap did better,next.
Originally posted by cdtm
And they're not under pressure to make Cap look good? I was arguing for Cap having impressive feats that shouldn't be written off as PIS in another thread, but can understand why so many of his feats get written off.. The "pwned" thread with scans of Cap knocking Hulk out is just one example of why.
No they're not Batman is much more popular. Cap has always been able to take on opponents like The Hulk, but beating him is unlikely.
Originally posted by cdtm
Joe Casey claimed Superman could have beaten down Imperiex. Writers can be fanboys too. They're only human, after all.Which is why arguing from the comic itself is how it's done, because you might get 10 writers who think Wolverine can beat Danny Rand in straight h2h, never having read much of Danny's history or outright dismissing it as opposed to how they would have written the character.
Except, Burbaker and Busiek aren't fanboys. The only problem with that is that writers are the one who make the comics and nobody thinks that Batman is equal. Hell even if you look at the movie versions, Cap always comes out superior.
Originally posted by namorsubby
Batman has proven his skill much more extensively in comics. How so? By exhibiting more style diversity,
Style diversity in comics is usually a main indicator of martial art skill but you are taking it too far. We already know that Cap has mastered all earth martial arts what you’re arguing is that because he doesn’t reference it all the time then that makes him less skilful.
Well then according to that logic Punisher is more skilful than Karate Kid. Karate Kid who managed to beat a Superman villain twice! Would you argue that Punisher is more skilful than Karate Kid?
Originally posted by namorsubby
training,
Why in Gods name would you argue that Batman is better trained? Caps training was funded by the US Government., Bruce had to fund his own training. Does Bruce have more resources than the US Government?
When Cap started his career he was facing Nazis. Nazis are highly trained and fanatical. Bruce was having problems with the police and thugs.
No he isn’t better trained. Oh and Cap has more experience.
Originally posted by namorsubby
and utilization. therefore, he is more skilled.
He hasn’t shown better utilization. In particular Cap has shown using martial art skill to stun and sometimes beat people with vast superhuman strength and durability, hes done this much more than Batman and for far longer.
Originally posted by Deadline
I see what you're trying to do. Stop trying to troll.
My point remains, a top fighter such as Batman or Bucky would murder Steve without the serum. Rogers would put up a fight, he always do, but considering his battles against certain opponents with the Serum I can't give him a free pass against his "peers".
Originally posted by abhilegend
Just for reference, val has learned every martial art in 31st century.
I know, not the point. The point is Val doesn't reference it all the time.
Originally posted by Bentley
My point remains, a top fighter such as Batman or Bucky would murder Steve without the serum.
You haven't got a point.
Originally posted by Bentley
Rogers would put up a fight, he always do, but considering his battles against certain opponents with the Serum I can't give him a free pass against his "peers".
Explain what his fight with his peers prove and stop talking.
You are trolling in particular you mentioned his enhanced intelligence because you saw me debating about this and saw how irritated it made me. I see what you're trying to do but I'll give you a chance.
Originally posted by Bentley
My point remains, a top fighter such as Batman or Bucky would murder Steve without the serum. Rogers would put up a fight, he always do, but considering his battles against certain opponents with the Serum I can't give him a free pass against his "peers".
😕 anyone could kill steve rogers without his serum as he was not just tiny but weak, nonathletic, and sickly....I think a bloodlusted peter parker before his powers would kill him....
Originally posted by BlackZero30x
😕 anyone could kill steve rogers without his serum as he was not just tiny but weak, nonathletic, and sickly....I think a bloodlusted peter parker before his powers would kill him....
He beat two peak human guards while in that state. He held his own against the sisters of sin while in a similar state.
Originally posted by BlackZero30x
Anyways I would say cap without gadgets but I would still give my vote to bats with his gadgets.
Don't think it would make a difference see how well he did against Taskmaster without his shield, very impressive.
Originally posted by Deadline
He held his own against the sisters of sin while in a similar state.
He got his butt handed to him by the sisters. 😕
He kept complaining how his younger body didn't react the same way his adult, and the closest he came to "holding his own" was with ambush attacks and throwing sand, than running like hell.
One of the sisters even outright said she was toying with him. And who wouldn't? He was a scrawny kid, anyone would underestimate him...
Cap really can't take more than 4-5 out of 10 here. He's stronger and faster but his skill is lackluster in comparison to Bruce. Iron Fist has stated on panel that Cap's form is basic and that he gets by on being stronger and faster than his opponent. In their most recent fight Daredevil completely humiliated Cap and wasn't even trying to mount any offense.
On top of Cap has admitted that Black Panther is his equal in hand to hand skill.
... Or more Black Panther comics.
Originally posted by Deadline
You are trolling in particular you mentioned his enhanced intelligence because you saw me debating about this and saw how irritated it made me. I see what you're trying to do but I'll give you a chance.
Eh, frankly I don't recall it and I don't have a particular agenda, so let's not further derail the thread. I don't appreciate to be called troll only because I contended one of your points, admittedly it came a bit from the left field because I haven't been posting until recently, but troll is a bit harsh.
Originally posted by Silent Master
Removing the serum doesn't change him back into a 90lb weakling, he had it removed during the SOP storyline and IIRC he kept most of his strength.
Cap beat Crossbones without the SSS, but it was close, and he seemed to tire quickly. Much more quickly than a high end street.