Captain America vs Batman(no shield-no gadgets)

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Before you start talking about bull. Take a long look at your post. Where in the world does it say that Capt. is master of all forms of combat?????

As far I know Capt was trained by the American army as a Super soldier to fight the nazis. If he has been gaining figthing skills post WWII that doesn't mean he has master them! If you were to say that the original avengers did trained him (after getting him outta of the big block of ice he was in for decades) in all forms of combat. That would be acceptable. But I don't recall such thing happening.

Look at the point I made! If you take away Captain America's shield that is a huge impact on his fighting skills.

Without his Mjolnir Hammer is Thor the same? NO!

Without his Iron man suit is Tony Stark the same? NO!

Without his arrows is Hawkman the same? NO!

Without his shield Captain America has to fight acrobatic. Or else he would be blown away by any opponent.

Many times Batman has lost his utility belt (or remove it) in order to fight a certain opponent. And just like Capt. he has fought in a acrobatic style.

Don't come here and tell that without his shield Captain America remains the same. Because that is real bull!

A very good post, and all the post from Dizzle are really good as well. To the point, and accurate.

Look at the opponents each fight. Batman's opponents outclass most of Cap's in degree of strength and speed.

Like any athlete, the more you train, the better shape you will be. Batman trains everyday. He is in tremendous shape. He can last a very long time in a fight, if need be. Batman is the embodiment of a perfect human specimen who trained himself to get there.

Cap is labeled a perfect human because of the serum, but the only thing more the serum does is not let Cap tire. A fight between him and Bats won't go for hours.

The current debate seems to be about if Captain America has more or equal fight skills than Batman.

I don't think he does. What the army trained him, and the Avengers trained him in is all he has. Batman spent years and years becoming a master of all his fight skills. He can also, through strict meditation, promote healing. There are many comic examples where he has done this. Stopped blood from seeping from his body or shut his body down to try to heal faster. It takes a master to do this, which Cap is not.

Cap is more familiar with different fight forms. Maybe dabbled in some of the harder ones, and is still learning, but he is not a master.

Cap hasn't had the time to become a master. If he did, then it would become a different story.

Batman, a master fight technician, win this fight over an excellent athlete with great fight skills.

Originally posted by xkalybr
A very good post, and all the post from Dizzle are really good as well. To the point, and accurate.

Look at the opponents each fight. Batman's opponents outclass most of Cap's in degree of strength and speed.

Like any athlete, the more you train, the better shape you will be. Batman trains everyday. He is in tremendous shape. He can last a very long time in a fight, if need be. Batman is the embodiment of a perfect human specimen who trained himself to get there.

Cap is labeled a perfect human because of the serum, but the only thing more the serum does is not let Cap tire. A fight between him and Bats won't go for hours.

The current debate seems to be about if Captain America has more or equal fight skills than Batman.

I don't think he does. What the army trained him, and the Avengers trained him in is all he has. Batman spent years and years becoming a master of all his fight skills. He can also, through strict meditation, promote healing. There are many comic examples where he has done this. Stopped blood from seeping from his body or shut his body down to try to heal faster. It takes a master to do this, which Cap is not.

Cap is more familiar with different fight forms. Maybe dabbled in some of the harder ones, and is still learning, but he is not a master.

Cap hasn't had the time to become a master. If he did, then it would become a different story.

Batman, a master fight technician, win this fight over an excellent athlete with great fight skills.

Batman's not stronger than Cap. To think otherwise is a bit silly, when Cap benches half a ton with reps. Batman is pretty close, but the strength edge very clearly belongs to Captain America. His speed is not quite as well documented, but again, to think that both are not nearly equals is foolish.

Steve Rogers was a skinny kid before the SSS. It DID boost his strength and speed and such, though not into the "superhuman" classification. (he's not Hulk, he's not even Spiderman, but he IS peak human) The only impossibly superhuman thing about Cap is the fact that he cannot tire.

Now, in terms of fighting skills, Cap received several months worth of training, to Batman's many years spent across the globe studying with those reputed to be the best in the world. If nothing else, Batman's KNOWLEDGE is far more extensive. (also, Cap didn't get "trained" by the Avengers, as he is the top fighting expert there as is)

Again, saying Cap is anything other than brilliant would be folly. However, even brilliant martial artists are things that Batman has fought and defeated before. Physically, they are near equals with an edge to Cap. Skillwise, they are near equals, with a slight edge to Batman. I really can't see a significant advantage either way. It's a complete tossup, if there ever was one. 5/10 each.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Before you start talking about bull. Take a long look at your post. Where in the world does it say that Capt. is master of all forms of combat?????

As far I know Capt was trained by the American army as a Super soldier to fight the nazis. If he has been gaining figthing skills post WWII that doesn't mean he has master them!

Without his shield Captain America has to fight acrobatic. Or else he would be blown away by any opponent.

Many times Batman has lost his utility belt (or remove it) in order to fight a certain opponent. And just like Capt. he has fought in a acrobatic style.

Don't come here and tell that without his shield Captain America remains the same. Because that is real bull!

1. Read newest marvel handbook on the Avengers.
2. Look up captain america
3. read special skills
4. then look at power grid
5. then look at power ratings in the back of the book.
6. now look up any captain america card with power grids on them (such as 92 and 93 marvel cards) and then look at all the greatest martial artists and fighters cards in marvel. Which one's possess a 7 in fighting ability besides cap? What does a 7 mean by definition?

Don't tell me I wrote bull. Why would anyone write something like that without proof or evidence?
And I didn't imply that cap is the same without his shield. (because he is not)

Originally posted by Juntai
Post the scan of it saying that he's master of all forms of combat, because his Marvel.com bio doesn't.

Marvel.com says Boxing and Judo.

Batman however, knows every Earth based Martial Art.

1. Read newest marvel handbook on the Avengers.
2. Look up captain america
3. read special skills
4. then look at power grid
5. then look at power ratings in the back of the book.
6. now look up any captain america card with power grids on them (such as 92 and 93 marvel cards) and then look at all the greatest martial artists and fighters cards in marvel. Which one's possess a 7 in fighting ability besides cap? What does a 7 mean by definition?

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Read newest marvel handbook on the Avengers.
2. Look up captain america
3. read special skills
4. then look at power grid
5. then look at power ratings in the back of the book.
6. now look up any captain america card with power grids on them (such as 92 and 93 marvel cards) and then look at all the greatest martial artists and fighters cards in marvel. Which one's possess a 7 in fighting ability besides cap? What does a 7 mean by definition?

Take your handbook. Look up Namor. Check his strength. Is it anywhere below class 100? If so, why in hell can he lift stuff that weighs upwards of 1,000 tons?

Handbooks are crap. This is a COMIC BOOK forum. Please tell me of ANY time in comics when Cap is referenced as knowing EVERY martial art in existance. Alien martial arts included, mind you. I want scans of him training in Asgard, in Atlantis, on Mars, and on each and every single one of the thousands of star systems in Marvel. Until you do, the 7 doesn't mean what you thought it did. Cap is an excellent h2h fighter. Karnak, Mantis, etc are all rates 7's as well. Is Cap as good as them? Not even close. Read comics, not handbooks.

It's true, no doubt. Handbooks are indeed crap.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
It's true, no doubt. Handbooks are indeed crap.

How many people in Marvel are actually rated as a 7 in fighting skills? And of all those people, does it state anywhere that they mastered every single type of fighting style in a comic?

Originally posted by jrodslam
How many people in Marvel are actually rated as a 7 in fighting skills? And of all those people, does it state anywhere that they mastered every single type of fighting style in a comic?

No, that's the problem. The official "definition" of 7 is a master of all forms of combat, yet DD has a 5, when he has shown in comics to know much more than 1 martial art. Peak human, by handbook standards, is benching twice your body weight. Cap has done more than that in comics, but Marvel still doesn't change the classification. The numbers really mean nothing.

Originally posted by Dizzle
No, that's the problem. The official "definition" of 7 is a master of all forms of combat, yet DD has a 5, when he has shown in comics to know much more than 1 martial art. Peak human, by handbook standards, is benching twice your body weight. Cap has done more than that in comics, but Marvel still doesn't change the classification. The numbers really mean nothing.

Originally posted by Dizzle
The point is, it is YOUR job to prove that Cap is competent without his shield, not mine to prove that he isn't.

Originally posted by brainchild81
You didn't see him make the bear run for his life? No shield, no suit. Just good ol' American @ss-kicking talent! Cap doesn't say "Oh no! Without my shield, I'm a pushover." He adapts! Respect Cap! & respect his f**king authority! Cap 10/10. 💃

Originally posted by Dizzle
No, that's the problem. The official "definition" of 7 is a master of all forms of combat, yet DD has a 5, when he has shown in comics to know much more than 1 martial art. Peak human, by handbook standards, is benching twice your body weight. Cap has done more than that in comics, but Marvel still doesn't change the classification. The numbers really mean nothing.

I totaly agree. But i did hear a member of this forum say that somewhere in a comic, Cap told someone that he does know every fighting style on the planet. I dont know how true that is though. Could have been made up. Who knows. 😬

Originally posted by brainchild81
You didn't see him make the bear run for his life? No shield, no suit. Just good ol' American @ss-kicking talent! Cap doesn't say "Oh no! Without my shield, I'm a pushover." He adapts! Respect Cap! & respect his f**king authority! Cap 10/10. 💃

Yes, bears are great tests of one's fighting skills. 🙄 I'm talking something on the level of beating up Bronze Tiger, Azrael, Ra's Al Ghul, and the like. You have a long road, if you really intend to try. If not, you have crap to prove that Captain America is even close to Batman in pure fighting skills.

The thing is though, Cap is rarely seen fighting without his shield. Are the logical people supporting Cap supposed to yield just because we can't find feats? If you don't consider kicking a bear's @ss to be competent, maybe you're just too hard to please.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Yes, bears are great tests of one's fighting skills. 🙄 I'm talking something on the level of beating up Bronze Tiger, Azrael, Ra's Al Ghul, and the like. You have a long road, if you really intend to try. If not, you have crap to prove that Captain America is even close to Batman in pure fighting skills.

😆 Chimneys don't hit back!!! Bruce Lee said so.

Dizz i hear what youre saying about Cap mastering every type of fighting stlye(7 statistic). However, if you dont find that to be concrete, why is it that you seem to find Bats mastering 127 fighintg styles to be concrete?

Originally posted by brainchild81
😆 Chimneys don't hit back!!! Bruce Lee said so.

If someone can find that passage and or comic where Cap says that hes mastered or knows every fighting style on the planet, that would help in this debate greatly. I think.

I still say the only edge in this fight, is Cap's stamina.