Originally posted by jrodslamwe arent saying that cap knows all forms of martial arts.....we are simply saying that he knows more than enough to be the baddest mofo walking the MU who is still just a homo-sapien.
If someone can find that passage and or comic where Cap says that hes mastered or knows every fighting style on the planet, that would help in this debate greatly. I think.I still say the only edge in this fight, is Cap's stamina.
Cap's speed. Dodges bullets while kicking a$$. Fast as a mofo!
Batman would not "tire out" as some of you have put it. He's fought for days and with the mastery of chi, among other arts, his anatomical manipulation is on par with Cap's ability to slow down production of amino acids. Batman just never quits, nor does his body. I was just rereading New Avengers #5 where Carl Lykos punks Cap and the Avenger team, making them into a somniferous group of catnappers. Now I'm thinking, Batman would definitely get out of a situation like that. Batman ALWAYS gets out of situations like that. Captain America is one of the greatest martial artists, no doubt about it, but there's absolutely no evidence to infer he's on any level close to Batman, especially since he hasn't trained that long.
Originally posted by jrodslam
Dizz i hear what youre saying about Cap mastering every type of fighting stlye(7 statistic). However, if you dont find that to be concrete, why is it that you seem to find Bats mastering 127 fighintg styles to be concrete?
Because... One happens in comics, the other does not. Batman explains, on CD, what he calls the basics on every major style of fighting on the planet. 127 styles. He can't teach em if he doesn't know them himself, really. I'd also like to see Cap saying he knows every style of fighting, and I'd like proof that it ISN'T hyperbole.
Oh, and I one up your bullet dodging with crossbow bolt catching. Notice how Priest was close enough to dive on him after the last shot.
But if you really need bullets... Batman can do bullets. Or is he really Neo? DO THE MATRIX!
Why move at mach speeds when you can do lightspeed? No one's a real superhero without avoiding complicated laser security systems. Notice how he also figures out the complete 30 second repeating pattern, and the way to get through it in his head. Friggin genius.
Now, guns aren't really that powerful. Bullets can be dodged. What happens when Batman comes across the most powerful weapon in the universe? He takes it.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Because... One happens in comics, the other does not. Batman explains, on CD, what he calls the basics on every major style of fighting on the planet. 127 styles. He can't teach em if he doesn't know them himself, really. I'd also like to see Cap saying he knows every style of fighting, and I'd like proof that it ISN'T hyperbole.
Silent Master says "So, how many posts must you have before you can post pictures, because I found one where Cap is fighting Baron Zemo and in it he states that he is adept at every form of hand to hand combat."
Is that proof enough?
Originally posted by h1a8
Silent Master says [B]"So, how many posts must you have before you can post pictures, because I found one where Cap is fighting Baron Zemo and in it he states that he is adept at every form of hand to hand combat."Is that proof enough? [/B]
Not really... It's Cap saying it, not proving it. That would imply that he does indeed know more than boxing and judo, but what has he ever shown? Hercules SAID that he lifted the entire island of Manhattan. Violator SAID he was a knight of justice. The freaking Watcher said Spiderman is the best hand to hand combatant on the planet. Unless it's a narration, or until he really PROVES that he knows all of them, I'm going to remain skeptical. Cap still has very few h2h fights that prove he has more than average (for a comic) skills without his shield.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Because... One happens in comics, the other does not. Batman explains, on CD, what he calls the basics on every major style of fighting on the planet. 127 styles. He can't teach em if he doesn't know them himself, really. I'd also like to see Cap saying he knows every style of fighting, and I'd like proof that it ISN'T hyperbole.Oh, and I one up your bullet dodging with crossbow bolt catching. Notice how Priest was close enough to dive on him after the last shot.
But if you really need bullets... Batman can do bullets. Or is he really Neo? DO THE MATRIX!
Why move at mach speeds when you can do lightspeed? No one's a real superhero without avoiding complicated laser security systems. Notice how he also figures out the complete 30 second repeating pattern, and the way to get through it in his head. Friggin genius.
Now, guns aren't really that powerful. Bullets can be dodged. What happens when Batman comes across the most powerful weapon in the universe? He takes it.
Again... well said, and with pictures too. 😉
Batman's genius isn't often spoken about, but it give him a major advantage during battle.
Genius - Strategist - Tactician - Philosopher - Supreme Confidence... a master of these wins many battles.
Originally posted by xkalybr
Again... well said, and with pictures too. 😉Batman's genius isn't often spoken about, but it give him a major advantage during battle.
Genius - Strategist - Tactician - Philosopher - Supreme Confidence... a master of these wins many battles.
Meh, I don't see his intelligence helping much, not here. Cap's one of the best strategists in Marvel, just as Batman is in DC. Tactics wise, they're dead even. In terms of science, Batman's leagues ahead, but how many astrophysicists do you see in UFC?
Originally posted by Dizzle
Not really... It's Cap saying it, not proving it. That would imply that he does indeed know more than boxing and judo, but what has he ever shown? Hercules SAID that he lifted the entire island of Manhattan. Violator SAID he was a knight of justice. The freaking Watcher said Spiderman is the best hand to hand combatant on the planet. Unless it's a narration, or until he really PROVES that he knows all of them, I'm going to remain skeptical. Cap still has very few h2h fights that prove he has more than average (for a comic) skills without his shield.
Cap is hardly the type of person to lie about his capabilities, as for showing skills other than judo or boxing, he was shown training Wonderman in aikido
Originally posted by h1a8
1. Read newest marvel handbook on the Avengers.
2. Look up captain america
3. read special skills
4. then look at power grid
5. then look at power ratings in the back of the book.
6. now look up any captain america card with power grids on them (such as 92 and 93 marvel cards) and then look at all the greatest martial artists and fighters cards in marvel. Which one's possess a 7 in fighting ability besides cap? What does a 7 mean by definition?
I think sums it for me and find it to be the best response.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Take your handbook. Look up Namor. Check his strength. Is it anywhere below class 100? If so, why in hell can he lift stuff that weighs upwards of 1,000 tons?Handbooks are crap..
Exactly! Handbooks provide insight into the character. But they don't determine the outcome of a battle. We could put The Blob vs Daredevil. Blob is far more powerful than the hornhead. Does that mean Daredevil can't harm him? Nope, one poke at the eyes and blob would be blind. Giving Daredevil enough time to prepare a plan. Handbooks don't determine a fight....PERIOD!
Originally posted by h1a8
And I didn't imply that cap is the same without his shield. (because he is not)
Good! We're getting somewhere with this issue.
Originally posted by Silent MasterYep, then all we need is evidence supporting every type of martial art he knows. Batman has on panel proof. Caps bio on Marvel.com states he knows various styles including Judo and Boxing. So only those are specifically listed. There's scans in this thread of placing Batman with every known style on Earth. That said, it's complerely feasibly that if it were in his character, he could apply a KO or Death grip/touch/hold from pretty much any known angle in regards to any move Cap throws, since he knows thost styles. [Although killing isn't in his character traits, koing is.]
Cap is hardly the type of person to lie about his capabilities, as for showing skills other than judo or boxing, he was shown training Wonderman in aikido
There are specific points that he'd have to connect with. Batman can't just randomly touch anywhere and KO Cap. Batman will likely have to either dodge while trying this or just take the hit. When taking the hit, the impact will likely throw his aim off and it might just give Cap a bigger advantage. Pressure points are not likely to win this battle. Stamina is.
Originally posted by brainchild81No, but a person that's mastered every Earth Martial Art would know what good counter to a vastly more narrow array of attacks, would place him in a favorable position to apply one. I'm not saying the tecnique is the only option, I'm just saying it's a good arguement and it is without doubt.. And it's worked on greater threats than Cap.
There are specific points that he'd have to connect with. Batman can't just randomly touch anywhere and KO Cap. Batman will likely have to either dodge while trying this or just take the hit. When taking the hit, the impact will likely throw his aim off and it might just give Cap a bigger advantage. Pressure points are not likely to win this battle. Stamina is.
Where does Batman actually state " I know one hundred and twenty seven variant styles of martial arts and have mastered them all. " ? What I got from the scan provided was he simply had knowledge of each varying style on disk. And that he knew a little of this and enough of that to get by. Not that he actually mastered each and every one to the point of utter perfection. He wouldn't be human then. And even then it states that the moves were the " basics " of a particular style. That hardly makes any indication that there is mastery going on. I'm still skeptical of this belief that Batman has mastered over 127 styles of combat. It seems to be something that started off small and was blown into proportion by a few excited Bat-Fan Extremists.
While I don't agree with the 127 blow up. I do support Batman in this fight. Captain America tends to depend heavily, while not entirely on his shield in a fight. It's an extension of himself and gives him more of an edge. Without it his edge is cut down and Batman has a very large advantage.
Originally posted by nathan summersLook back in the thread where it was narrated that he does, the disc is just a reassertion... as well it's stated in both Batman's Ultimate Training Manual, and the Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight.
Where does Batman actually state " I know one hundred and twenty seven variant styles of martial arts and have mastered them " ? What I got from the scan provided was he simply had knowledge of each varying style on disk. Not that he actually mastered each and every one to the point of utter perfection. And even then it states that the moves were the " basics " of a particular style. That hardly makes any indication that there is mastery going on. I'm still skeptical of this belief that Batman has mastered over 127 styles of combat. It seems to be something that started off small and was blown into proportion by a few excited Bat-Fans.
Originally posted by JuntaiMay have, but were they as good as Cap @ fighting? That last statement is only powerful if the greater threat is doing his best. Example, Batman can judo flip Supes all week and we all know it's no big deal because Supes is a fool and he always holds back on Bats. Batman performing the same move on Shiva is impressive cause she's got skills. Supes is a greater threat than Shiva, but his foolishness makes him an easier victim. What greater threats were you talking about?
No, but a person that's mastered every Earth Martial Art would know what good counter to a vastly more narrow array of attacks, would place him in a favorable position to apply one. I'm not saying the tecnique is the only option, I'm just saying it's a good arguement and it is without doubt.. And it's worked on greater threats than Cap.
