Batman over the years has been poorly written. The character has been turned into a veritable god and has strayed away from his roots. Batman was suppose to represent humanity at its finest. He needs to be fixed. He comes off as more of a meta than an extraordinary HUMAN.
Btw. Go Batman. 😉
Go home. 😖hifty:
Originally posted by Zeraze
Batman over the years has been poorly written. The character has been turned into a veritable god and has strayed away from his roots. Batman was suppose to represent humanity at its finest. He needs to be fixed. He comes off as more of a meta than an extraordinary HUMAN.
As much as you don't like the character as he is, that still is how Batman operates. He's a meta by anyone's standards. It may not be how he was originally, but it IS in character, and it IS how he has been written time and time again. As much as many hate the insanity of Wolverine's healing factor, can anyone honestly say that bullets would do anything to him?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it didn't happen, basically.
Originally posted by h1a8
all of your scans doesn't prove that batman is more faster or more agile than captain america. The arrows only show batman's great reflexes. There are scans in the thread that show cap moving so fast that it seems as if he has multiples of himself around. The people watching him are in awe as they talk about his speed. All you did was show that batman is fast, agile, strong, and has great reflexes. But not more than cap. Thus that isn't proof.
To be honest there is no absolute proof. Mainly because both are roughly equally fast and agile and both are doing this at top human potential.
Originally posted by brainchild81
Does it state that he never slows or tires? 😆 It always seems like they are absolutely blind when it comes to PIS.
And I originally said that speed and reflexes should be fairly equal. However, because of the seeming phobia that the Cap side has for supplying scans and (gasp) real evidence, I'm going to say that Batman holds pretty much every physical advantage until someone proves me wrong, God dammit. If Cap's never done anything to rival Batman's feats, how in hell can you say he's as fast or faster? No matter how much logic any of you claim to have, clinging to a point against in comic evidence is just being stupid.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Exactly, they show his great reflexes... Which was the point What are you arguing for, that Cap can run faster? How in HELL will that help him? I've shown Batman drawn multiple times in a panel to show off his speed as well, your point has been pointless for quite some time now. The problem with your argument is that you have yet to prove that Cap is even fast, strong, and agile at all, much less at Batman's level.Any proof of him actually being tired from any of it? It never says "and Batman wasn't tired at all", but he keeps fighting after hours and hours of nonstop combat. Considering the fact that fights simply don't last that long, stamina really won't play a difference. It's like asking who's stronger, Flash or Quicksilver? Strength will play no part in their fight whatsoever, so the advantage is as useless as 3/4 of Superman's powers. Goooo Super-Knitting!
And I originally said that speed and reflexes should be fairly equal. However, because of the seeming phobia that the Cap side has for supplying scans and (gasp) real evidence, I'm going to say that Batman holds pretty much every physical advantage until someone proves me wrong, God dammit. If Cap's never done anything to rival Batman's feats, how in hell can you say he's as fast or faster? No matter how much logic any of you claim to have, clinging to a point against in comic evidence is just being stupid.
you didn't read my posts correctly.
I never said cap was faster or more agile.
I said it was impossible to prove that anyone of these characters is faster or more agile than the other (unless you timed them in something). Thus no one proved that batman was faster. Also, cap wasn't just running. He was moving, operating, performing tasks, thinking, and reacting at a very fast rate.
Batman is human and operates at peak human performance. If he could operate higher than a human possibly can then that would make him non-human now would it? Cap is stated many times by marvel to operate physically as high as a human possibly can. So how can another human be faster, more agile, stronger, or have better reflexes than him. This would be a contradiction to Cap's powers. That logic is proof enough to show that cap is indeed as fast (if not faster) than batman.
Lastly, batman lasted for hours in nonstop combat is PIS or Spiderman vs. Firelord mess. Unless he wasn't constantly swinging fists, wrestling, or kicking and had time to rest by either waiting or blocking. I didn't read that comic personally though.
Originally posted by h1a8
you didn't read my posts correctly.
I never said cap was faster or more agile.
I said it was impossible to prove that anyone of these characters is faster or more agile than the other (unless you timed them in something). Thus no one proved that batman was faster. Also, cap wasn't just running. He was moving, operating, performing tasks, thinking, and reacting at a very fast rate.
Batman is human and operates at peak human performance. If he could operate higher than a human possibly can then that would make him non-human now would it? Cap is stated many times by marvel to operate physically as high as a human possibly can. So how can another human be faster, more agile, stronger, or have better reflexes than him. This would be a contradiction to Cap's powers. That logic is proof enough to show that cap is indeed as fast (if not faster) than batman.
Lastly, batman lasted for hours in nonstop combat is PIS or Spiderman vs. Firelord mess. Unless he wasn't constantly swinging fists, wrestling, or kicking and had time to rest by either waiting or blocking. I didn't read that comic personally though.
I know what you said, you still have yet to prove that Cap can do ANY of the stuff that I've proven Batman can. I know what Cap was doing, I have a scan of Batman doing an almost identical stunt. Thug with gun and everything.
Who knows? He's Batman, surely he doesn't need to obey physics. He survived in the vacuum of space for 24 seconds for God's sake. He's supposed to be human, but he does many things that... well... aren't.
Cap is stated, but does he? Champion is supposed to be massively intelligent and know every form of martial arts in the galaxy, but does he? Cap's also supposed to be the best fighter on Marvel Earth, but he's obviously never fought Karnak. Until you PROVE he's as fast as Batman, the evidence is all on my side. It's not a "contradiction of power" for someone to be better than Captain America.
Batman fights every day of his life, and is in as close to perfect shape as one can get. It's not really a stretch to say that he's used to fighting for long stretches of time. I have scans of him lasting without sleep for days on end, and Murda Mase posted a scan of him fighting for 10 hours straight alongside Superman, though he himself states that he lasted several hours WITHOUT Supes. His incredible stamina is referenced in almost every good bio of him I've ever read, and he's proven it in comics several times. What more do you freaking need?
Originally posted by DizzleYou keep saying fights don't last that long and yet you've not proven it. Your scans have done nothing. They only serve as proof for people who reeeealy want them to be. Many of them were pure PIS. (I.E. him hiding from Stupidman, him touching Zeiss)What style or styles did the grappler guy use?
Exactly, they show his great reflexes... Which was the point What are you arguing for, that Cap can run faster? How in HELL will that help him? I've shown Batman drawn multiple times in a panel to show off his speed as well, your point has been pointless for quite some time now. The problem with your argument is that you have yet to prove that Cap is even fast, strong, and agile at all, much less at Batman's level.Any proof of him actually being tired from any of it? It never says "and Batman wasn't tired at all", but he keeps fighting after hours and hours of nonstop combat. Considering the fact that fights simply don't last that long, stamina really won't play a difference. It's like asking who's stronger, Flash or Quicksilver? Strength will play no part in their fight whatsoever, so the advantage is as useless as 3/4 of Superman's powers. Goooo Super-Knitting!
And I originally said that speed and reflexes should be fairly equal. However, because of the seeming phobia that the Cap side has for supplying scans and (gasp) real evidence, I'm going to say that Batman holds pretty much every physical advantage until someone proves me wrong, God dammit. If Cap's never done anything to rival Batman's feats, how in hell can you say he's as fast or faster? No matter how much logic any of you claim to have, clinging to a point against in comic evidence is just being stupid.
Originally posted by Dizzle
I know what you said, you still have yet to prove that Cap can do ANY of the stuff that I've proven Batman can. I know what Cap was doing, I have a scan of Batman doing an almost identical stunt. Thug with gun and everything.Who knows? He's Batman, surely he doesn't need to obey physics. He survived in the vacuum of space for 24 seconds for God's sake. He's supposed to be human, but he does many things that... well... aren't.
Cap is stated, but does he? Champion is supposed to be massively intelligent and know every form of martial arts in the galaxy, but does he? Cap's also supposed to be the best fighter on Marvel Earth, but he's obviously never fought Karnak. Until you PROVE he's as fast as Batman, the evidence is all on my side. It's not a "contradiction of power" for someone to be better than Captain America.
Batman fights every day of his life, and is in as close to perfect shape as one can get. It's not really a stretch to say that he's used to fighting for long stretches of time. I have scans of him lasting without sleep for days on end, and Murda Mase posted a scan of him fighting for 10 hours straight alongside Superman, though he himself states that he lasted several hours WITHOUT Supes. His incredible stamina is referenced in almost every good bio of him I've ever read, and he's proven it in comics several times. What more do you freaking need?
You never proved that he was faster than cap. In my opinion, the scan showing cap moving in multiples is 10 times greater than any scan you have posted showing batman's speed. This is my opinion of course and I bet that many will agree with me. You use the word "prove" incorrectly and out of its meaning. To prove something requires undeniable logic and rigor. You cannot prove that batman is faster than cap without actually timing them.
some scans you posted were not really about speed but cunning (like taking gl's ring).
In other words, you are arguing that feats alone should determine or prove things. But I say, if you create a character with a certain definition then who is to say that you are wrong. Cap is by definition as great as a human can be. Is batman human?
If no, then there is no argument. Definitions and handbook statistics are two entirely different things. One can deny handbook statistics. But one certainly cannot deny definitions. For definitions are eternally part of the character and in which they cannot be seperated from the character without changing the character itself.
Originally posted by Dizzle
It's not a "contradiction of power" for someone to be better than Captain America.
You mean to say "a human" (instead of "for someone"😉
Yes it is a contradiction of Captain America. For batman is human (I think-unless he genetically altered himself). If a human is physically better than cap then obviously cap is not as great as a human can be. But he is!
Originally posted by h1a8
In other words, you are arguing that feats alone should determine or prove things. But I say, if you create a character with a certain definition then who is to say that you are wrong. Cap is by definition as great as a human can be. Is batman human?
If no, then there is no argument. Definitions and handbook statistics are two entirely different things. One can deny handbook statistics. But one certainly cannot deny definitions. For definitions are eternally part of the character and in which they cannot be seperated from the character without changing the character itself.
Yes feats are how you judge who truely has an edge over the other. I there you to go through all these vs. threads, come and show me one thread that has not used the feat of such and such hero or villian to prove that this hero or villian is better at doing this thing than the other person.
Then going by your defination the whole comic book world is filled with PIS and not just the batman tittle alone. If you are going to after one go after all of theim. Spiderman should be able to beat scorpion, rhino, venon for they all are just so powerful than he is. Black panther should not be able to beat mephisto, the panther god, those white gorrilas, or even some of those animals he sometime wrestle. Just because they are defined as being .....this ..... does not mean that they cannot transent that and do something bigger and better.
This is comics after all, nothing is ever set in stone.
Each represents the pinacle of human physical specimen in their respective universe. It's safe to say any difference between them physically is minor at best. What does count however, is that Batman is both smarter and a better fighter with a much higher calibre striking power. [Seen in Fugitive against Nightwing, he kicked and dented one of the Bat-caves tempered supports - that were able to hold off vast siesmic vibrations.. Another scan earlier in the thread showings him kicking a tree in half. Slade said he hits as hard or harder than people with Superpowers..etc..etc.]
Then going by your defination the whole comic book world is filled with PIS and not just the batman tittle alone. If you are going to after one go after all of theim. Spiderman should be able to beat scorpion, rhino, venon for they all are just so powerful than he is. Black panther should not be able to beat mephisto, the panther god, those white gorrilas, or even some of those animals he sometime wrestle. Just because they are defined as being .....this ..... does not mean that they cannot transent that and do something bigger and better.
I meant to say that spiderman should not be able to beat those guys that I mention.
Originally posted by Juntai
Each represents the pinacle of human physical specimen in their respective universe. It's safe to say any difference between them physically is minor at best. What does count however, is that Batman is both smarter and a better fighter with a much higher calibre striking power. [Seen in Fugitive against Nightwing, he kicked and dented one of the Bat-caves tempered supports - that were able to hold off vast siesmic vibrations.. Another scan earlier in the thread showings him kicking a tree in half. Slade said he hits as hard or harder than people with Superpowers..etc..etc.]
I doubt that batman is a better fighter. I think they are very much evenly matched in their own unique way. Quotes shouldn't be used since cap's quotes are not used. I doubt batman is a better at striking either. There is plenty of proof showing the striking power of cap as well.
And these feats by batman are PIS. Since he rarely ever performs like this and the fact that it is accepted by anyone of good sense that these things are impossible by humans.
Originally posted by lifeisaglich
Yes feats are how you judge who truely has an edge over the other. I there you to go through all these vs. threads, come and show me one thread that has not used the feat of such and such hero or villian to prove that this hero or villian is better at doing this thing than the other person.Then going by your defination the whole comic book world is filled with PIS and not just the batman tittle alone. If you are going to after one go after all of theim. Spiderman should be able to beat scorpion, rhino, venon for they all are just so powerful than he is. Black panther should not be able to beat mephisto, the panther god, those white gorrilas, or even some of those animals he sometime wrestle. Just because they are defined as being .....this ..... does not mean that they cannot transent that and do something bigger and better.
This is comics after all, nothing is ever set in stone.
One should definitely use feats. But not feats alone.
You use faulty logic though.
First, stronger doesn't equal victory.
Second, not anything you said about this person should beat that person
is about definitions. I didn't say "By cap's definition he will beat batman".
I am saying "By cap's definition, batman cannot be faster, stronger, etc. than cap."
Lastly, techniqually, Spiderman should be able to beat scorpion and rhino.
These villians are nowhere near as superior as spidey.
spidey can see bullets traveling as if they're going at 20mph.
spidey's ss can jerk him out of the way of any danger (even before the attack happens) without his conscience knowledge.
spidey is many times faster than these villians.
So based off of exact power descriptions, spidey can not be hit by these villians. Also, spidey is much smarter and more experienced at fighting than venom. He also don't share his weakness of sonics. In other word, being stronger doesn't equal victory. One must take the total abilities of a character in consideration. If that is done then easily anyone will see that spidey is superior to many.
note: In all I've said those things are still not definitions of spidey.
Definitions of spidey are something different entirely.