Captain America vs Batman(no shield-no gadgets)

Originally posted by h1a8
I doubt that batman is a better fighter. I think they are very much evenly matched in their own unique way. Quotes shouldn't be used since cap's quotes are not used. I doubt batman is a better at striking either. There is plenty of proof showing the striking power of cap as well.

And these feats by batman are PIS. Since he rarely ever performs like this and the fact that it is accepted by anyone of good sense that these things are impossible by humans.

But his striking power? I don't see that. You're just coming off the wall now with trying to discredit him. He consistantly shows his striking power as being extreme. He often downs his opponents in a blow or two. Metahumans or not.

Hell, when Batman stopped playing around, he even dominated Batgirl/Cass in a fight, proving he could kill her in a single offensive move. He's definately the better fighter here.

All it comes down is the Cap fans trying to use DESCRIPTION of what Cap has, as if it compares or beats Batman. The problem is in application. Batman consistantly shows that he can outperform Captain America, issue to issue.

Originally posted by h1a8
One should definitely use feats. But not feats alone.
You use faulty logic though.
First, stronger doesn't equal victory.
Second, not anything you said about this person should beat that person
is about definitions. I didn't say "By cap's definition he will beat batman".
I am saying "By cap's definition, batman cannot be faster, stronger, etc. than cap."

I don't think that my logic is faulty but I know what you are reffering to. You are reffering to my spiderman and blackpanther should not be able to beat such and such on my previous thread. I know that strength does not equal vicitory.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly, techniqually, Spiderman should be able to beat scorpion and rhino.
These villians are nowhere near as superior as spidey.
spidey can see bullets traveling as if they're going at 20mph.
spidey's ss can jerk him out of the way of any danger (even before the attack happens) without his conscience knowledge.
spidey is many times faster than these villians.
So based off of exact power descriptions, spidey can not be hit by these villians. Also, spidey is much smarter and more experienced at fighting than venom. He also don't share his weakness of sonics. In other word, being stronger doesn't equal victory. One must take the total abilities of a character in consideration. If that is done then easily anyone will see that spidey is superior to many.

All what you just stated is exactly why batman wins his battles. What is the difference he does it with smarts, cunning, and little power.

Well ask for your descriptions nothing is set is stone. The descriptions just gives us an idea of what this person is like, who they are. Take us for example do you really think that the information that the state has on us is always going to be 100% or even 88% accurate? No, because things change that is why there is always a renew this or a renew that. This is what happens with comic characters so what you read in your descriptions are not always accurate.

batman said it himself dat cap can take him out after a ehile fighting.....chk JLA/Avengers #2

Originally posted by lifeisaglich
I don't think that my logic is faulty but I know what you are reffering to. You are reffering to my spiderman and blackpanther should not be able to beat such and such on my previous thread. I know that strength does not equal vicitory.

All what you just stated is exactly why batman wins his battles. What is the difference he does it with smarts, cunning, and little power.

Well ask for your descriptions nothing is set is stone. The descriptions just gives us an idea of what this person is like, who they are. Take us for example do you really think that the information that the state has on us is always going to be 100% or even 88% accurate? No, because things change that is why there is always a renew this or a renew that. This is what happens with comic characters so what you read in your descriptions are not always accurate.

I was not arguing that cap can beat batman. Someone said that batman was faster and more agile. This is where I strongly disagreed.
That is why I was talking about definitions and feats.
I believe that the fight can go either way though. Chance plays a huge role in this fight. Both are capable of taking each other out with their strikes. So who strikes harder doesn't matter since they both strike hard enough to take each other out.

I agree with the batman fans in everything except:

1. batman is faster and more agile

2. batman is a better fighter
(knowing more styles doesn't make one a better fighter but it helps) I also believe that cap knows as many styles too. I believe there was a comic or series of comics that none of us here saw that shows how cap gain knowledge of all forms of combat. Otherwise, marvel placing it in many places (such as quotes from cap, handbooks, marvel cards, etc.) makes no sense. I even found out from this thread that cap has hundreds of years of fighting experience from the future in which he remembers it all. I never seen this comic though. Time travel and magic(or technology) had to play a part.

3. batman strikes harder.
(I believe they strike roughly the same. I've also seen cap injure meta-humans and class 75 beings with his kicks before. And some of batman greatest strikes were PIS)

4. smarts is greater than strategical genius.
(In fighting, I believe these things are the same. Both uses cunning, guile, trickery, deception, anticipation, etc.)

5. batman beats cap the majority of the time.
(I believe this fight can go either way depending on chance. Both have roughly a 50% chance of winning.)

Originally posted by Juntai
Batman does consistantly perform on the level of those feats I mentioned though. I don't see how it's PIS, when it's consistant both in his own series and in sidestories. Stuff like fighting off Superman, even temporarily is PIS, given that what happened in Sacrifice could happen, but even the Hush battle was explained as him relying on Superman being.. good..

But his striking power? I don't see that. You're just coming off the wall now with trying to discredit him. He consistantly shows his striking power as being extreme. Batman consistantly shows that he can outperform Captain America, issue to issue.

batman fans refuses to see that the feats they list are PIS.
I've read many batman comics in my life. And I assure you that feats like these (hurting superman and the like by striking, breaking trees,etc.) occur in less than 1/200 comics. Why? Because the writers know they are B.S. If batman does these things too much they would have to explain how he genetically altered his body. What is the definition of consistent? Maybe 1/5? A lot better than 1/200 though! There is no way for batman to hurt superman or anyone else of the like through striking. Those guys are armor piercing bulletproof. That is total B.S. Also, no being of any human strength with any type of martial ability couldn't kick a 2.5 ft wide tree in half. Come on now! Those things are obviously PIS. But any master of fighting can take out another human in one strike. (I have seen it personally) That is believable and true.

In that said, there should be a more technical definition of PIS.
Maybe use actually statistics. One suggestion can be :
If similar impossible like feats (feats that shouldn't happen in according to a characters power description) happened more than 1/10 comics then it is not PIS.

My numbers can chance but it should be reasonable and non bias.

Originally posted by h1a8
I doubt batman is a better at striking either. There is plenty of proof showing the striking power of cap as well.

And these feats by batman are PIS. Since he rarely ever performs like this and the fact that it is accepted by anyone of good sense that these things are impossible by humans.

Ok I see what your saying,
so I won't ask for "plenty" of proof just some, like 3 scans showing Cap's striking ability, ok ok how about 2, no, well then just give me one that shows Cap doing more damage than Batman with strikes, Others and I have shown plenty of scans which is proof that are canon whether you think it's pis or not.

I hope you remember and except the fact that ALL of this is make believe, and sorry to burst your bubble but so is Batman.

Originally posted by h1a8
.And I assure you that feats like (hurting superman occur in less than 1/200 comics. Why? Because the writers know they are B.S. Also, no being of any human strength with any type of martial ability couldn't kick a 2.5 ft wide tree in half

I agree with your first statement, no being who suppose to be at human strength level or maximum human strength level(like Cap)should hurt Supes, although I never posted Batman hurting Supes, because to me that's nonsense.

Now smashing 2.5 ft wide trees is hard to believe but plausible, especially in comics.
Remember this is no ordinary human, this is a man completely obsessed with becoming the perfect weapon, always training, since childhood practically and still always training, and he has "chi" susceptability, Irion fist can punch threw a 2 feet thick steel wall with his "chi" fist, nobody complains, but since some forget Batman has that ability, to tap into his "chi" force, we denounce him when he shatters trees and brick walls, but this is quite possible if you wield "chi", in comics.
And as for real life, shaolin monks have been defying their human capacity for centuries, that's nothing new, breaking solid bricks with a single figer, doing a handstand on index fingers only(ouch), pulling 100lb wheels with their testicles, preventing a spear from penetrating the soft area of the throat while the spear is being forced beneath the adams apple, these are all facts that are performed to this day, I have a video of a one time special showing the monks did at their sacred monastery, unbelievable demonstrations.

LOOK UNDER STRENGH LEVEL , http://www.marveldatabase.com/wiki/index.php/Captain_America_%28Steve_Rogers%29

game over cap wins.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree with your first statement, no being who suppose to be at human strength level or maximum human strength level(like Cap)should hurt Supes, although I never posted Batman hurting Supes, because to me that's nonsense.

Now smashing 2.5 ft wide trees is hard to believe but plausible, especially in comics.
Remember this is no ordinary human, this is a man completely obsessed with becoming the perfect weapon, always training, since childhood practically and still always training, and he has "chi" susceptability, Irion fist can punch threw a 2 feet thick steel wall with his "chi" fist, nobody complains, but since some forget Batman has that ability, to tap into his "chi" force, we denounce him when he shatters trees and brick walls, but this is quite possible if you wield "chi", in comics.
And as for real life, shaolin monks have been defying their human capacity for centuries, that's nothing new, breaking solid bricks with a single figer, doing a handstand on index fingers only(ouch), pulling 100lb wheels with their testicles, preventing a spear from penetrating the soft area of the throat while the spear is being forced beneath the adams apple, these are all facts that are performed to this day, I have a video of a one time special showing the monks did at their sacred monastery, unbelievable demonstrations.

I've taken and studied martial arts very seriously for more than 10 years. I know what limiteds chi is capable of. It takes more than 1000 times more force to kick a 2.5ft. tree in half than anything the greatest shaolin monk with chi can do. If you believe that feat is plausible then you are highly deluded. There is no amount of chi that can be achieved to do a feat like that. None!
I am also a physics major. That mixed with good knowledge in chi and martial arts is the reason why I know that feat is impossible for a human. It is ovbvious PIS.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok I see what your saying,
so I won't ask for "plenty" of proof just some, like 3 scans showing Cap's striking ability, ok ok how about 2, no, well then just give me one that shows Cap doing more damage than Batman with strikes, Others and I have shown plenty of scans which is proof that are canon whether you think it's pis or not.

I hope you remember and except the fact that ALL of this is make believe, and sorry to burst your bubble but so is Batman.

I understand that all of this is make believe. But comics try very hard to occur with reality. In other words, they try to explain why so and so can do so and so through true science. Powers and abilities are believable because of their source. Writers just don't say "Let's make believe that a human being can lift 100tons and fly like superman if they practice hard and long enough." What would everyone think? Exactly!
Everything in comics must have a logical explanation (or under the same circumstances be believable). Not just be pure make believe.

also LOOK UNDER STRENGH LEVEL , http://www.marveldatabase.com/wiki/index.php/Captain_America_%28Steve_Rogers%29

Originally posted by h1a8
I've taken and studied martial arts very seriously for more than 10 years. I know what limiteds chi is capable of. It takes more than 1000 times more force to kick a 2.5ft. tree in half than anything the greatest shaolin monk with chi can do. If you believe that feat is plausible then you are highly deluded. There is no amount of chi that can be achieved to do a feat like that. None!
I am also a physics major. That mixed with good knowledge in chi and martial arts is the reason why I know that feat is impossible for a human. It is ovbvious PIS.

Anyways, the guy asked for proof, and you still haven't supplied anything other than a link to a site, that's not even an official site. It does have a couple of feats listed by his strength, but it's no different than the supplied scans of Batman doing similar or greater feats in nearly every category, of strength, speed, agility, etc. that you and others guys try to write of as PIS out of mere spite for Batman. Then claim he isn't frequently on that level, even in the face of multiple scans and encounters proving he is indeed.

Originally posted by Juntai
Yeah, but this is a comic peak human, not a real life peak human. It's completely plausible, at least as much as any other feat any peak human has done in comics. Take Daredevil for example, the guy can hear the hammer of a gun click, and jump out of the way of a bullet that breaks the sound barrier, from minimum distance.
Can YOU stand at the end of my .45 and dodge when I click the hammer? **** no you can't.

Anyways, the guy asked for proof, and you still haven't supplied anything other than a link to a site, that's not even an official site. It does have a couple of feats listed by his strength, but it's no different than the supplied scans of Batman doing similar or greater feats in nearly every category, of strength, speed, agility, etc. that you and others guys try to write of as PIS out of mere spite for Batman. Then claim he isn't frequently on that level, even in the face of multiple scans and encounters proving he is indeed.

Proof to what? I was just listing the site for general knowledge (because of someone else). I wasn't trying to prove anything with it. Daredevil is an altered human. That is why his feats are plausible. Batman, on the other hand, is not altered (At least I think so). So it is OBVIOUS that is some of his feats are PIS and nowhere near plausible. Captain America is altered. That is why many of his great feats are plausible.
I like to use common sense. If writers make Batman hurt Superman and the like what makes you think they won't have him doing other impossible PIS that shouldn't be accepted as proof (like kicking huge trees in half). Come on now! That feat is just ridiculous as hurting superman. He is an unaltered human for crying out loud.

Originally posted by Juntai

Then claim he isn't frequently on that level, even in the face of multiple scans and encounters proving he is indeed.

some of the batman scans were plausible. Like him moving fast dodging bullets and taking out the guy with the machine gun. The only scans that are obvious PIS (mainly because they never occur in his main character and the fact that they are not possible or remotely plausible) are him kicking a tree in half and him flipping over and ripping a steel beam in half. Other than that I accept every scan on batman as proof. I say these two scans or feats shouldn't be used since they are definitely in the Spiderman-Firelord and PIS range.

Originally posted by h1a8
I've taken and studied martial arts very seriously for more than 10 years. I know what limiteds chi is capable of. It takes more than 1000 times more force to kick a 2.5ft. tree in half than anything the greatest shaolin monk with chi can do. If you believe that feat is plausible then you are highly deluded. There is no amount of chi that can be achieved to do a feat like that. None!
I am also a physics major. That mixed with good knowledge in chi and martial arts is the reason why I know that feat is impossible for a human. It is ovbvious PIS.

Impossible like the that girl(in real life)who fell 10,000 feet in a skydiving accident landed at terminal velocity and survived, she was pregnant(2 weeks)fetus survived aswell, grant it she broke her face and they had to do countless surgeries to repair it, but she didn't burst any organ inside and is now planning to jump again. Don't believe me just google "girl who survived 10,000 feet drop" you'll get a link directly to it, now this is a woman in her twenties who has never done any kind of training to optimize her bodies potential yet incredibly she survived the unsurvivable. Don't tell me anything is impossible.

And you can study every art there is for a lifetime, and I still will ignore your opinion about impossibilities, not out of disrespect, but out of eye witnessing monks do the impossible, like when channel 13 was allowed a special recording of monks under a meditative state, relaxing in a snowy frozen mountain with a piece of cloth to cover their private parts, not only did they lounge as if they were enjoying a Jamaican sun, but after a while just to prove how hot their bodies had become through meditation, they placed thin sheets over their backs and steam was pouring out, it seemed impossible but there they were.

And even if you really thought about it, you would come up with stories you have seen and heard of through broadcast or news about seemingly miraculous occurances that have taken place on this earth(and this is real life we're talking).

Originally posted by h1a8
also LOOK UNDER STRENGH LEVEL , http://www.marveldatabase.com/wiki/index.php/Captain_America_%28Steve_Rogers%29

Ok I saw that, but that's immaterial here since this particular thread is dealing with Classic Captain America who can press(lift over his head)800lbs with Supreme Effort, and Classic Captain America does not have 100 years of fighting experience, so that goes out the window too.

Bottom line: Your opinion, phylosophy and logic is respected but obselete since you have not presented a shred of proof of Cap doing anything the likes of which I have shown regardless whether you think it's PIS or not.
If you disagree with the writers power over DC or Marvel characters, take it up with the company, because if it's in continuity, it's canon, and my scans are in continuity.

Batman 6/10, I think Cap would be Batman's greatest challenge in a hand to hand bout, but until proof changes my mind, I'll say Bats takes him, though slightly and nearly dying himself.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Impossible like the that girl(in real life)who fell 10,000 feet in a skydiving accident landed at terminal velocity and survived, she was pregnant(2 weeks)fetus survived aswell, grant it she broke her face and they had to do countless surgeries to repair it, but she didn't burst any organ inside and is now planning to jump again. Don't believe me just google "girl who survived 10,000 feet drop" you'll get a link directly to it, now this is a woman in her twenties who has never done any kind of training to optimize her bodies potential yet incredibly she survived the unsurvivable. Don't tell me anything is impossible.

And you can study every art there is for a lifetime, and I still will ignore your opinion about impossibilities, not out of disrespect, but out of eye witnessing monks do the impossible, like when channel 13 was allowed a special recording of monks under a meditative state, relaxing in a snowy frozen mountain with a piece of cloth to cover their private parts, not only did they lounge as if they were enjoying a Jamaican sun, but after a while just to prove how hot their bodies had become through meditation, they placed thin sheets over their backs and steam was pouring out, it seemed impossible but there they were.

And even if you really thought about it, you would come up with stories you have seen and heard of through broadcast or news about seemingly miraculous occurances that have taken place on this earth(and this is real life we're talking).

I have no problem in believing these feats. There is no way for an unaltered human to kick a large tree in half. Sorry, but someone (a grownup) definitely needs help if they believe this is possible.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok I saw that, but that's immaterial here since this particular thread is dealing with Classic Captain America who can press(lift over his head)800lbs with Supreme Effort, and Classic Captain America does not have 100 years of fighting experience, so that goes out the window too.

Bottom line: Your opinion, phylosophy and logic is respected but obselete since you have not presented a shred of proof of Cap doing anything the likes of which I have shown regardless whether you think it's PIS or not.
If you disagree with the writers power over DC or Batman 6/10, I think Cap would be Batman's greatest challenge in a hand to hand bout, but until proof changes my mind, I'll say Bats takes him, though slightly and nearly dying himself.

I only posted the site because I wanted to hear people's opinion about it. I was piggy backing off someone ahead of me.
I had no point with this site and will not use it in any argument since it is not official.

Since PIS is not accepted at this forum as proof then I don't have to show Cap outdoing batman kicking trees in half and ripping huge steel pipes in half. But there were scans showning off Cap's speed already. In my opinion, those scans were 10 times better than any batman speed scan. I earlier believed that cap would win 10/10 because he is equal or better in fighting ability (no one can prove this false), stronger, fast as or faster, more stamina, etc. The strongest proof to these wouldn't be scan's but the basic definition of cap. But now through some insight (both have been hit by lesser beings) then I now believe it can go either way or roughly 50% winning odds to each character.

Batman kicking down that three is not PIS because it is within his character. First off the people in the comics are far more stronger than the people in real life. They are stronger than regular joes, so this combined with their form of martial arts makes them far greater than any of us.

So you are ok with Cap. being able to hurt Class 75 beings with just his punches and he is not even using persure points which carry so much weight during fights in comic battles?

Batman has demonstrated that he has the better speed. And one of the best was him dodgeing bullets matrix style.

Cap can't bench 5 tons... The site wasn't official, and it wasn't even close to being suported by in comic evidence. Marvel says twice his body weight, his best feats say 1,000 lbs.

Batman can too kick trees in half... I can provide a completely separate cscan of him doing it, if you relly want me to. Batman also threw a guy through a brick wall and caused internal bleeding once... These, combined with the entire steel pipe thing, show that he is very, very strong, and can hit very, VERY hard. No one on this thread has given any real proof that Cap can match Batman in most physical stats, let alone fighting skill. Saying Cap has fought for 100 years is trivial. He wasn't training and learning anything new, it's simply him gaining more experience. Ra's Al Ghul has lived and fought for millenia. Batman beats the crap out of him. Time lived really means nothing, once people hit a certain point. Time spent really training DOES, since one would be learning and rapidly improving while training, where simply fighting wouldn't really make one "better" at a point.