Originally posted by snoopdoggyes batman did admit that cap could take him on. but they never finished it which sucked.
I think you missed my point. Let me try and explain this. When he said "could" he meant there is a 50% chance Cap would win. If Batman said "would"(which he didn't) he would mean that there is a 100% chance Cap would win.Am I the only one who realizes this?
Originally posted by lifeisaglichim sorry you took the time to write that, because you have said aboslutley nothing we havent already gone over, and you know nothing of the UFC so how bout u keep this to make-beleive grounds?
Let me put all the speculation to an end.Batman is a master of 127 different form of martial arts. Taking all that he has mastered and putting it in to one. Making him a more effective fighter and martial artist than captain America. Because instead of batman taking all the effective martial arts and forming a new style. He could take only the most basic, important thing from each of the 127 arts that he knows and form an art that is more fluid in its movement and firm in combat.
Batman has taken beatings from super-powered beings and he is still hear to tell the tail. Like the beating batman got from superman when he thought that batman was darksied. How about the time when batman was dressed up as brainac. Or how about the beating he got from Mongul. Batman is one tough GUY. Being more powerful that him does not automatically give who ever it is the win.
Batman speed should be able keep up with Captain America. He has been shown to tag Bart (speedster from the teen titans) at low sub speed.
In a UFC fight it is a straight 50/50 mark for both contenders. If batman cheats as well as he fights more wins to him. Who is more likely to cause a disqualification? Who is more likely likely to use some forgotten art?
I'm a martial artist of seventeen years, I know Kung Fu, and Judo. I'll tell it as it is, there is no way to become a master of 127 forms of martial arts. Like the old saying goes being a jack of all trades means that you're a master of none.
Let's look at this on a more logical level, Captain America under optimal conditions has rarely if ever been put down by an opponent of equal or nearly equal strength face to face.
Captain America's endurance is far greater than Batmans, I know for a fact what it feels like when your limbs get heavy while sparring or straight out pushing yourself for 20 minutes. Captain America will outlast Batman (both of these men are over 200 pounds, just think about how long it would take to tire if you jumped around for long periods while fighting no less).
Captain America is stronger, faster, more agile, and has better endurance, due to the Super Soldier Serum in Captain America's blood stream. Captain America will eventually wear Batman out, and go for the knock out (this is the only logical outcome) Captain America is the superior specimen physically.
Like I pointed out earlier Batman may have dabbled in 127 martial arts, but being a master of this many styles is impossible to accomplish in 3 lifetimes yet alone one. Before people bring nonsense up like that, they should go out, and ask someone who knows better.
As for Batman being a better war tactician Captain America was commanding war battalions when Batmans father was a child, the experience of leadership goes to Captain America.
As for Superman clocking Thor, didn't Count Nefaria do the same thing, back in the days that George Perez skteched for the Avengers? How was that pis?
Originally posted by snoopdogg
I think you missed my point. Let me try and explain this. When he said "could" he meant there is a 50% chance Cap would win. If Batman said "would"(which he didn't) he would mean that there is a 100% chance Cap would win.Am I the only one who realizes this?
Originally posted by rickey24
ill admit, im a batman fan. but it honestly seemed to me that batman acknowledged that cap was a great fighter, that cap COULD possibly beat him, and that most of all, cap seemed to be the LEADER of the avengers. batman is the brains of the jla. he knew that if they fought, it would take a long time, time better spent on finding out exactly what was going on. and if one of them lost, it would not help the cause. like i said, batman was not sure, and he couldnt take a chance on being knocked out of the battle.
Originally posted by kurtbusiek
To my eye, that's about as close as Batman can come to admitting defeat out loud. But to each his own. Anyone wants to think Superman just got in a lucky shot, or Batman was lying ... well, these are stories, and they happen in between the printed page and the audience's minds. So it goes.kdb
Originally posted by imarobot
If your intention was to say that Cap won, why not use the word would instead of could?
Originally posted by kurtbusiek
That's as close as Batman can come to saying it...kdb
Chuckg
Don't you think Batman should be able to defeat Captain America by using his leopard blow?
kurtbusiek
No, not particularly.
Chuckg
That really should be interpreted that Batman thinks he'd beat Cap, doesn't it, since Batman is the far more skilled fighter?
kurtbusiek
You can interpret it how you like, but my intent was that Batman was noting that Cap is the more skilled.
kdb
http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=39153878&start=0&tstart=0
It's from page 45
[Qupte]im sorry you took the time to write that, because you have said absolutely nothing we haven't already gone over, and you know nothing of the UFC so how bout u keep this to make-beleive grounds?[/Quote]
I am sorry that it took you this much time to dig up an old post and on top of that say absolutely nothing 😆
And how you deduce I know nothing of the UFC is nothing short but amazing give yourself a round of applause. No matter what anybody says do not listen because you deserve it. 😆
Originally posted by lifeisaglich
[Qupte]im sorry you took the time to write that, because you have said absolutely nothing we haven't already gone over, and you know nothing of the UFC so how bout u keep this to make-beleive grounds?
I am sorry that it took you this much time to dig up an old post and on top of that say absolutely nothing 😆
And how you deduce I know nothing of the UFC is nothing short but amazing give yourself a round of applause. No matter what anybody says do not listen because you deserve it. 😆 [/QUOTE] i didnt dig up anything old, it was right infront of me, and thanks for the applause it aint easy schoolin punks like you on the daily.
Anyways... King Kam, all I said in that post was batman was basically a stuff guy. I presented batman being clocked by superman in three different instances by three different writers. Now this kind of fall under, hmm... kind of like what Mr. Busiek in the Avenger/JLA crossover who said Batman was nothing and Captain America is more skilled. Which is basically anouncing his own believes, I wounder what those writers believed? 🙂
i didnt dig up anything old, it was right infront of me, and thanks for the applause it aint easy schoolin punks like you on the daily.
Sure you didn't
And One last thing Have yourself a cookie It's not often I get Schooled. 😆
Originally posted by brainchild81
Was your misquote intentional Life?
Misquote I really wish it was
Check this out
The post below was presented by Silent Master.
huckg
Don't you think Batman should be able to defeat Captain America by using his leopard blow?kurtbusiek
No, not particularly.Chuckg
That really should be interpreted that Batman thinks he'd beat Cap, doesn't it, since Batman is the far more skilled fighter?kurtbusiek
You can interpret it how you like, but my intent was that Batman was noting that Cap is the more skilled.kdb
http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/...=0&tstart=0
It's from page 45
I don't think I misquoted because it was his intent. Was IT NOT?
kurtbusiek
You can interpret it how you like, but my intent was that Batman was noting that Cap is the more skilled.
Ok what do call this then?
Mr. Busiek's intension was that batman was nothing that Cap was more skilled. Is this not his intension I ask again?
I got that quote from Silent Master..go talk to him maybe he misquoted something. 🙂
Why Batman would win
DIFFERENCE IN LEARNING
1
Originally posted by Dizzle
And to whoever said that the SSS had no point... It did. It made Cap very strong and very fast in a very short amount of time. Batman spent his entire LIFE training to be as good as he is. It's decades of work vs. an experimental wonderdrug that makes you perfect within seconds. It's like the master craftsman vs. the machine or the swordmaster vs. the guy with a gun. It's 2 roads that lead to the same place. Which is better? There are advantages to both.
SUIT ENDURANCE
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Originally posted by Dizzle
Possibly, but he's taken hits like that many many times. I wasn't saying that the suit would absorb ALL of the damage, only a good amount of it.
2
Originally posted by Murda Mase
This shows Batman's costume durability level.http://members.tripod.com/agent0x7/dkendurance.html
Cap's punches won't hurt him.......
INTELLIGENCE
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Originally posted by nathan summers
But Ultimately Batman would win against a shield-less Captain America, in my opinion. In a UFC match? Hm. Batman's a lot smarter than Cap. The smarter fighter wins. You can know 1,000 different styles of martial arts or be able to lift over 2 tons but if you're not a smart fighter -- you won't win.Batman 6/10 in a UFC match.
2
Originally posted by xkalybrBatman's genius isn't often spoken about, but it give him a major advantage during battle.
Genius - Strategist - Tactician - Philosopher - Supreme Confidence... a master of these wins many battles.
PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY?
1
Originally posted by Juntai
That is true though, the think *thing * about Batman's photographic memory.
He even remembered being mind-wiped because there was exactly 11 minutes and a few seconds missing from his perfect memory.He also knew that Superman had taken some of his memories following Emperor Joker.
EXPERIENCE
1
Originally posted by DizzleCap doesn't know every style of combat, that's as BS as saying Punisher can shoot Spiderman. His training spanned months, at most. He uses mostly judo, jiu jitsu, and boxing. Batman's training lasted for years, and he HAS shown that he knows 127 different styles. Not all of them are as good as others, but pretty much every art has SOME point behind it, whether it's a single technique or an entire approach to fighting in general. Batman knows every trick that Cap does, and more.
2
Originally posted by h1a8
read marvel handbook (which is the official judge on what's what)
how can you argue with the people who write the comics.
Marvel handbook: inconsistent. More on the Silent Master picture later.
3
Originally posted by Juntai
Post the scan of it saying that he's master of all forms of combat, because his Marvel.com bio doesn't.Marvel.com says Boxing and Judo.
4
(Referring to Batman virtually mastering all 127 martial arts)
Originally posted by lifeisaglich
Virtually means you are at the finish line but you have not crossed it yet. Virtually means you are 5 feet from the finish line after running a 10k marathon.Anyways in batman official hand book it does say and I quote .....learning form manhunters and martial artist, mastering every fighting style.
So in retrospect batman has indeed mastered every single martial arts there is.
5
Originally posted by batdude123
Batman is a master of Haragei, a master who has expanded his physical senses over this plane of existence to another and thus becoming hyper aware of his surroundings without appearing to really being anything different from others. He is keenly aware of everything going on around him and also the microscopic and the astral world around himself. Furthermore he can feel that world around himself and thus being one of the most difficult targets for telepathy and also telepathic obfuscation. Along these lines the Bat has learnt and masters both the Sakki and Kiai. Kiai is the ability to feel the intent and thus be able to act accordingly. However Sakki is the force of the intention and with these three pillars the Bat can take the physical battle to another level, to the psychological, the mental plane. The Sakki and Kiai, completed with the mastery of Haragei can be used as physical weapons, a force of wills where every blow is even stronger than the physical ones. As a ninja and a master of haragei, Batman has learnt to cope without his sensory input, making him able to fight and function without any sort of handicap should he lose his sight or hearing, or other senses. The fact is that the Bat is far beyond the human senses and even though they are handy, they're not needed.Chi is another facet and a tactic the Batman uses, much like Sakki, it can be projected through the combat. Batman has been shown, on numerous occasions, to be able to perform feats impossible to humans. He has been shown to kick down trees, punch through concrete and mortar walls. He has been shown to be able to lift up a stone totem that weighed over a ton. He can project his Chi out of his body and aid him physically, because of this it is no big feat for him to punch through living trees and walls. By focusing his Chi inside his body he can ignore the physical damage and pain he receives. Through his training, Batman has trained himself to ignore exhaustion, sleep deprivation, emotions and also pain and agony. To anyone looking at the Bat, there is nothing remotely human about him other than the chin. As a Bat, when under control, he feels no emotions, no fear, no love, he is completely indifferent to the world around himself and thus he is in tune with it as Tao teaches. He flows from one motion to another in the river of life, this granting him the sixth sense, intuism he always listens to, the thing that has saved his life on many occasions.
This form, this Tao was taught to him by Mistress Shao-La in the Himalayas. Bruce Wayne had heard about a master with great power residing in the mountains and the young boy wanted to learn more. He went to the master who'd teach him the Tao and also self-control. The light side of this force would give him the control over his emotions and the ability to be in tune with the world, but it wasn't enough for him. Bruce Wayne wanted power, true power and after Shao-La told him about Master H'Sien Tan he would venture out there and learn.
From H'Sien Tan Bruce Wayne learnt the path of personal power. He learnt from the man that he had two destinies and by choosing one of them he'd receive everything he had ever wanted and the second would make him nearly omnipotent. This path would be the path of personal power he sought to avenge and to protect. In time it would also consume him. This little story is part of the package H'Sien Tan taught Bruce. The acceptance. The acceptance of one's fate, one's death and one's power. It was also a craft he taught to Bruce, to know, to feel the world and the energies around himself, to harness those energies and glean answers from them. This form of spiritualism has served Bruce well, but also it has twisted him and he has found ways to distort it, making him appear the victim even if he has wanted it. From H'Sien Tan he also learnt a way to control himself, not just his emotions but his body. Bruce is capable of, instinctually, command his body to stop bleeding, force healing on himself and even more importantly, he is able to ignore the toll exhaustion and the lack of sleep inflicts on him. Also Tan taught him the way to slow down his heart, the flow of his blood, to the level of dying and yet remaining alive.
The dark forces of Tao, the greed, is a powerful mistress and because of this the person who wields these arts needs to be mentally strong to wrest the control lest it controls him in his path to power. This dark art comprises partly of alchemy and magic mixed in with the mental control and hypnotism and this is the most formidable teaching Tan had to give Bruce.
Batman is able to force his presence on others, much like the way the Wrath of God appears. He can grow in people's minds, project his terror on them and destroy their minds, but at the same time he can push his presence inwardly and just disappear from their mind's eye, right in front of them and none will know how nor why. Furthermore he has learnt the power of suggestion, the ability to appear as something else to anyone and this is the key behind his quick costume changes and his disappearances. To add to this, his skills in these arts have given him a willpower matched by nearly none as he can ignore anything and go through stone and rock. The last skill Tan gave to Bruce was the art of the Tiger Fist, a punch so powerful it can rend through mountains, a skill, an art known to only 5 people on Earth and only 2 of them survive 'til this day.
As a ninja, a shadow assassin, Batman has been taught to use his surroundings to his advantage and so he knows when there are people in the correct vantage points, he knows how to conceal himself so that he is virtually invisible and he knows the ways to use the surroundings offensively. This lesson is part of the reason why the Bat was created in this visage. Bruce knows the hearts of the men and he can defeat them before engaging them in combat. In ancient times in Japan, the warrior caste, the Samurai, used the Ninja because their honor couldn't handle the deceitful tactics. However, Batman has no qualms with this and actually he uses quite a lot of deception as he does his work. Chu Chin Li and later on David Cain taught him the assassination tactics and skills, so he is aware of how a possible assassin will work and will think, and he can prepare against these situations.
Japanese sword fighting or Kendo is part of the Bushido class and way of life and also practiced by Batman and Bruce Wayne. From Bushido and Taothe Batman has taken the meditation skills taught to him by Shao-La for clearing his mind and his conscience, even if Alfred tends to call it brooding. Many a time the Bat has solved a case while meditating or sleeping, which is quite the same thing for him as he utilizes the sleeping techniques Shao-La taught him.
The ways of the Shadow Warrior are quite many and there are different rumors and different legends about the ninjas, and when concerning the Bat most of them hold true. However the main thing about the ninja is that they're adaptable and Batman has taken this strategy in his heart and cherishes it. He adapts to any situation and if he isn't able to conquer, he will find another way to do it.
... 😉 Batman wins.
INCENTIVE FOR OVERCOMING PROBABILITY
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Originally posted by xkalybrBack to point... that (Batman's) craziness / compulsion / guilt feelings over his parents death / and a huge deathwish is the reason why he would take the time to master 127 martial arts, and gymnastics, and detective skills, meditation, and computers, weapons design, and god knows what else. No one else would.
It is why the Batman creates weapons to be able to beat his friends, and other heroes. It is why he would practice surviving out in space, risking serious injury or death, until the Martian Manhunter pulls him back in. It is why every hero respects him and wants him to be on their team, when in a fight, yet calls him a kook behind his back.
Cap has the everyday problems everyone else has, be he is not border line psychotic. Batman wins because his skills are way superior.
CAPTAIN AMERICA's EXPERIENCE
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QUOTE=6070554]Originally posted by Dizzle
Cap wasn't training for thousands of years. He was fighting, which means his experience is apparently crazy awesome, but he wasn't learning anything new. Batman's training, not his expereince, is far more extensive than Cap's.
[/QUOTE]
On this note, I saw the picture Silent Master posted with Captain America saying he was "adept" in all forms of combat known to man. I ask that you SHOW this. Show that Captain America uses a variety of martial arts, not just Judo and Kick Boxing. Until then, it's all folklore. There's nothing to validate this because Captain America doesn't use anything else. He said it once but he's never proved it. Marvel.com says what it says, WHICH is more up to date than the retcon Marvel guide. Batman shows variation ALL THE TIME- not enough to say "look, he showed all 127 martial arts in this freakin panel!" but enough to say "Damn. He shows a LOT more versatility than Captain America ever has."
VARIETY
1
Originally posted by Dizzle
Because he wasn't reading out of a book. 😉If you really need more of Batman's diversity...
Defeats Robin in 3 minutes, going what he considers to be easy, and using ONLY Indian styles.
My favorite quote from Shadow of the Bat... (#0)
"The grim purpose that burned inside him was growing, demanding direction, seeking release. He looked further, to the East. He learned karate from an ascended master in the Paektu-San mountains of Korea--Savate from a convicted killer living as a beach bum on an island off Borneo. Six months in a japanese hermitage taught him the value of Judo and Ju-jitsu. From a chinese woman so old she should have been dead, he learned the secrets of the Tao, that nothing is fixed, everything is fluid, everthing is energy. He mastered a dozen disciplines, experimented with them and fused them into something that was uniquely his own. In Africa he learned how to read the environment for the signs man's passage leaves--how to find and follow a trail to which ordinary men were blind...The ninjas taught him their secrets--how to use the shadows, how to employ psychology to win the battle before it's even fought--the precautions to take when you make yourself a target--and how to use fear."He's trained with everyone.
The top ranked Yakuza teaching him body reading techniques. It's not just Shiva and Batgirl anymore...
Cap has never shown anything close to the level of skill that Batman has, plain and simple.
Oh, and I never said that Batman was necessarily a master in all 127 arts. However, being able to teach them requires a good amount of proficience. It implies that he is at least good with all of them, meaning that he would know EVERYTHING that Cap could ever hope to try to pull on him. It doesn't hurt that he trained in some single arts for more time than Cap trained period.
The main argument against Batman is "stamina," but we already know Bats has plenty of it, and will win before tiring out. He's got photographic memory and overwhelming intelligence. Captain America is simply outclassed; Batman will figure out all his moves and put him down.
