Captain America vs Batman(no shield-no gadgets)

Originally posted by Silent Master
Because I have a different view of Batman’s personality than you do, and I think that is as close as Batman can come to admitting someone is better than he is.

It just so happens that my opinion on Batman was similar to Kurt’s, which means that I was able to understand his intent, or correctly “read between the lines” as the saying goes.

He never even implied he is inferior, he simply stated it is a possibility, and when Batman is clearly inferior he has acknowledged it.

That statement was pretty clear to me. Between what lines you read exactly I don't know but that's you're opinion so....

*Shrugs*

Anybody have a comment on Prometheus downloading Batman's fighting skills and having his ass handed to him by Cap?

Or are all the Batman fans discrediting that somehow? 😆

Originally posted by Battlehammer
What H2H showings?

How was his training superior to Captain America who was train by the best h2h combatants that were both within and out of U.S Military. The U.S military trained him to be the best fighter possiable this is even prior to his expereinces as Capt America

His hand to hand showings, across his career.

Batman was trained by masters of their type of fighting all over the world. He was trained by the best the world had to over. The best in their type of fighting.

Batman trained to be the best fighter possible as well.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Right, because we all know that a rich white guy would have better access to MA masters than the USA would.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He never even implied he is inferior, he simply stated it is a possibility, and when Batman is clearly inferior he has acknowledged it.

That statement was pretty clear to me. Between what lines you read exactly I don't know but that's you're opinion so....

*Shrugs*

You're entitled to your opinion. However, your opinion doesn't change the fact that Kurt has flat out stated what his intent was in regards to the scene in question.

The training thing gets kind of interesting. We have to ask ourselves ''How rooted in the real world are the comics?''

Anybody who's watched MMA knows that the list of martial arts that are actually effective in combat would probably be less than ten.

So how do YOU personally dissect martial arts in the comic world? Is it like the real world where most martial arts are utterly useless or do more fighting styles automatically=better fighting ability?

Having been into MMA for a few years now I have to say I'd go with the former, but I wouldn't exactly dispute the latter as it's comics and very open to interpretation.

Originally posted by Starscream M
pretty sure he would...batman traveled to places that aren't even on maps to find the best masters

That's nice, and what proof do you have that his masters were better than the ones provided for Cap.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
His hand to hand showings, across his career.

Batman was trained by masters of their type of fighting all over the world. He was trained by the best the world had to over. The best in their type of fighting.

Batman trained to be the best fighter possible as well.

Like which ones. all I been getting form you is that you like batman a lot and have little to no reason for why you give him the nod in skill.

Capt was as well. He trained by the best fighters the U.S government could get his hands on to train him.

As did Captain America except not only did he have him self training to be the best fighter he could be, but he had the U.S military sharing in that goal.

again you have yet to give significant reasoning for why you believe what you do. You have given very broad as well as ambiguous reasons. They also seem to give a senses of bias with them.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
They also seem to give a senses of bias with them.

Originally posted by Mr. Immortal
The training thing gets kind of interesting. We have to ask ourselves ''How rooted in the real world are the comics?''

Anybody who's watched MMA knows that the list of martial arts that are actually effective in combat would probably be less than ten.

Originally posted by Starscream M
😂 there's something ironic about you saying that

Originally posted by Battlehammer
This is only really accurate in the sport of MMA. Most every style is very effective when it comes to fighting for ones life. You are assuming that MMA is the end all be all. However many of the styles not effective in MMA is due to MMA as the sport, not in live and death events. Many MA are created fundamentally to kill another or indefenses against weapon or weapons.

It's been proven that many, MANY traditional martial arts have very limited applications in both MMA and life-or-death situations. The examples are too numerous to mention, check out early Vale Tudo events for more information. MMA is as close to a real fight as you can get without small joint and orifice manipulation.

As for life-or-death fighting styles like Krav Maga, many of these kinds of styles do not differ too much from each other. Afterall, many of us have the same bodies with the same weaknesses. There are a million ways to kick somebody in the crotch, but the result is the same.

😆

Originally posted by Mr. Immortal
It's been proven that many, MANY traditional martial arts have very limited applications in both MMA and life-or-death situations. The examples are too numerous to mention, check out early Vale Tudo events for more information. MMA is as close to a real fight as you can get without small joint and orifice manipulation.

Originally posted by Mr. Immortal
As for life-or-death fighting styles like Krav Maga, many of these kinds of styles do not differ too much from each other. Afterall, many of us have the same bodies with the same weaknesses. There are a million ways to kick somebody in the crotch, but the result is the same.

😆

They do have differences however and theses differences matter. There stances, there moves, the fundamentals are all different from one another.

To say that theses styles are no longer effective is wrong. There not effective perhaps in a match with set rules, however they are effective for matches to the death or for what they were created to do. Kung-Fu for one is rather ineffective in MMA however they were extremely effective during wars inwhich they were used in such manners as to kill there opponets. Certain stykles can be very limited if you take away there true purposes which is to eliminate the threat.

so yes you are correct that they are few styles that are effective in the sport of MMA however that does not mean the styles are ineffective when they are used for there proper creation.

hell a MMA fighter has commented before that Krav Maga fighter he was training under would kill him in a fight, dispite the fact he is MMA. The differences in what one is trained for is what matters.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Like which ones. all I been getting form you is that you like batman a lot and have little to no reason for why you give him the nod in skill.

Where are you getting from that I like Batman a lot?

What the hell are you basing that on?

I love Nightwing, but barely tolerate Batman and think he is overrated, just as I think Captain America is. I don't particularly enjoy either.

Do you know how many feats of hand to hand, Batman has?

Do you honestly expect me to list them all?

How the hell am I supposed to do that?

Capt was as well. He trained by the best fighters the U.S government could get his hands on to train him.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
As did Captain America except not only did he have him self training to be the best fighter he could be, but he had the U.S military sharing in that goal.

His training is not more impressive because the United States had an interest in it.

Batman trained with many notable hand to hand fighters such as Cain, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon etc.

His been trained by the best of the best for the majority of his life. His been to places only a few have ever reached in history.

Captain America spent a few years, trained by who the United States were able to get at that time and I don't recall any notable fighters being mentioned.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
again you have yet to give significant reasoning for why you believe what you do. You have given very broad as well as ambiguous reasons. They also seem to give a senses of bias with them.

What bias?

You're accusation is completely baseless.

I already addressed this.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Where are you getting from that I like Batman a lot?

What the hell are you basing that on?

I love Nightwing, but barely tolerate Batman and think he is overrated, just as I think Captain America is. I don't particularly enjoy either.

Do you know how many feats of hand to hand, Batman has?

Do you honestly expect me to list them all?

How the hell am I supposed to do that?

Capt was as well. He trained by the best fighters the U.S government could get his hands on to train him.

I like Night wing better as well.

Yes do you know how many capt has?

No I expect you to list the ones which make you believe he superior to capt.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
His training is not more impressive because the United States had an interest in it.

Batman trained with many notable hand to hand fighters such as Cain, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon etc.
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His been trained by the best of the best for the majority of his life. His been to places only a few have ever reached in history.

Captain America spent a few years, trained by who the United States were able to get at that time and I don't recall any notable fighters being mentioned.

By this logic then you would also believe that wolverine is superior to batman in h2h sinces he been trained by notable fighters/trainers and has vastly more experiences as well as training then batman.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
on the fact your giving no real reasons for your believe that batmans mor skilled.

I'm basing on each of their overall showings. I just believe that overall Batman seems to have the slight edge. I've read enough Batman and Captain America to make an accurate guess.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
I like Night wing better as well.

👆

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Yes do you know how many capt has?

Yes I do. I've read a lot of Captain America and he has a great deal of showings and in turn feats.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
No I expect you to list the ones which make you believe he superior to capt.

Like I said, their overall showings. Illogical to decide by matching up single instances, as that's impossible with all of their feats.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Never said it was.

Never said that you said it was.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
By this logic then you would also believe that wolverine is superior to batman in h2h sinces he been trained by notable fighters/trainers and has vastly more experiences as well as training then batman.

You could use that logic if I was basing my opinion on their training alone, which would be stupid either way.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm basing on each of their overall showings. I just believe that overall Batman seems to have the slight edge. I've read enough Batman and Captain America to make an accurate guess.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Like I said, their overall showings. Illogical to decide by matching up single instances, as that's impossible with all of their feats.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You could use that logic if I was basing my opinion on their training alone, which would be stupid either way.

apologies if I came off disrespectful it just the way I debate.

also if I do this..... with the dots it just a thing I do out of reflex it means nothing

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
When did he make Thor feel his strength?

Holding off Namor with strength?

I don't remember that, but if he did, it was PIS. Just like what Batman did to Lobo was PIS, and just like Batman making Doomsday, and Darkseid feel his attacks is PIS.

Then by that logic Batman take down cruise missile is PIS. See that was easy fact of the matter is Cap is stronger if we go by majority feats, and statements.

Iron Man has handled much more than Captain America before.

Like I said, both have amazing feats of strength and both have feats are that are obviously beyond human. Batman has a huge jobber aura, and Captain America is well Captain America.

Iron Man is greater then Cap by a lot thats for sure. But Cap high end feats are >>>then Batmans. And even his average feats are >>then Batmans.

That is true, but Nightwing overpowered his opponent, put his head through a brick wall, picked him up and tossed him like a rag doll.

PIS. See anyone can do that. Anyways I won't trust you interpretation since you butchered Ult Cap vs ult GM.

So what if Slade was stated that strong?

Like I said, Batman's apprentice has held off someone that strong.

I think Slade should be the clear superior to either Batman or Captain America while the two are on par.

So what if Slade is stated that strong?

So what that Slade is stronger then Batman. And Cap has been stated the same thing. C'mon man put 2 +2 together. For your information Cap's strength feats are better then Slades too. But I class Slade and Cap the same since there so similar in certain feats and certain statements.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
I dont think you have. I have read both as well and nothing batman has done would make me think he has superior h2h skill

Well, how would you know that I haven't read enough of Captain America/Batman?

I've never given you reason to doubt that I've read their comics, have I?

I've read a great deal of either. A bit more Batman but that's because of the amount of comics he has.

I on the other hand, believe that Batman has shown that he has the slight edge, hand to hand wise.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Actaully it much easier then to say that Batman overrall feats are better when both have vastly to many feats to make such a statement. You be better off comparing eachother feats vs top MA's to decide who is infact superior

Umm, what?

Are you saying it's easier to compare their overall feats, or comparing their singular feats to other top Martial Artists?

I don't get which.

Let me clarify what I meant. It would be easier to base who is superior etc. on their overall feats, as they have such a great deal feats, it's unrealistic to compare individual or singular feats as they both have such a large number.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
A lot of your argument hangs on training. Your only real arguement so far has been on the quality of each training and time frame. By this line of logic Wolverine would be consider superior fighter to Batman in h2h. He has both the training and experience edge. Which is what you were saying gives Batman the edge in skill vs Captain America

Training?

Training only takes you so far, but I do believe Batman's training was superior to Captain America's. He was trained by the best of the best, in terms of Martial Artists, and I don't recall Captain America being trained of individuals of significant note comparable to who trained Batman overall.

Still, I'm not basing Batman's superiority on training.

What do you mean time frame?

I've never referred to a time frame. I did mention training but I am not basing my opinion on it alone. I repeat, you're statement might make some sense "if" was using that logic alone which I am not. Wolverine was trained by some impressive combatants, but I don't remember him being trained by as many note worthy individuals as Batman. Faulty example in my opinion.