Originally posted by darthsith19
Give it up, Fozzyfan116, your never going to get through to Wesker... he's just going say Luke swings his lightsaber like a baseball bat, make up some bull shit excuses to add to his replies and then say your a Luke fanboy. There's no point trying to get through to him. He's always right.
He is in this case, you are going against what is clearly shown in the movies. And that is that Luke sucks with a lightsaber, you have nothing to even support your theory of him being good...
1. Luke beat Vader, heavily contested even at the very best situation for Luke, Vader couldn't have been fighting at his best because of conflicting emotions. Luke however knocked Vader down when he was angry and only had hatred powering him.
2. And this impressive how? He defeated a few people with a gun and a few people with axes or whatever and he had help... Real impressive.
3. He didn't kill Boba, and the situation was confusing, he wouldn't have done so in a 1 on 1 situation.
vs.
1. Correct statement. Luke doesn't know a lightsaber form he uses his lightsaber like an idiot he barely has any training and couldn't be as skilled as people who trained for years.
1. Luke beat Vader, heavily contested even at the very best situation for Luke, Vader couldn't have been fighting at his best because of conflicting emotions. Luke however knocked Vader down when he was angry and only had hatred powering him.
2. And this impressive how? He defeated a few people with a gun and a few people with axes or whatever and he had help... Real impressive.
3. He didn't kill Boba, and the situation was confusing, he wouldn't have done so in a 1 on 1 situation.
vs.
Luke swings his saber like a baseball bat, which has proven more than efficient.
1. Luke beat Vader
Conflicted fight. Vader clearly doesn't fight back in ROTJ and takes a deliberate spill. Of course, if Luke is your personal god and reason for living, you might not see that at all. Hence, fanboyism.
2. Luke defeated all of Jabba's Guards
Luke got the jump on a handful of goons who had no real training and some didn't even have blasters. Most certainly NONE of them had lightsabers. This feat is EASILY replicated and beaten by any PT jedi, so I don't see why you're bothering. This is like saying Bob is a better knight than Arthur because he can ride a horse real good.
3. Luke bested Boba Fett
WTF? I don't recall him besting Fett. Hell, Solo accidentally finished him off. And regardless, any PT jedi could pwn Fett on a small sail barge with the element of surprise and chaos.
vs.1. Luke holds his lightsaber like a baseball bat
Ah, gross simplifcation of a detail I hadn't even emphasized in my entire argument above. Good way to really comprehend the opposition! But then again, you can't read for shit, and you logic the way some lemmings do, so that's understandable. Consider yourself
you decide who has won.
Nevertheless, Vader didn't let Luke beat him and Luke did beat him, even though he used hatred. But even when he wasn't using hatred Vader didn't have the advantage and feared that he's lsoe (as stated in ROTJ novel).
Wow, and so the apologists come out. Whenever you start a paragraph with "nevertheless," the eyebrows are going to raise.
Vader didn't have the advantage? Is that why Luke scurried off to go hide? Is that why all Vader did was hold up his saber, and Luke didn't even really move his arm? Luke beating Vader is contested, get a better feat.
Jabba the Hutt's one of the biggest crime lords in the entire galaxy. He has Bounty Hunters and tons of guards with him, guards that had vibro-axes. Anmd your right, he had help, Han got Boba out the the way and Lando defeated one guard. That's it.
And Boba is greater than all of the guards there. So does that mean by your logic that Han > Luke because of a the superior feat?
Those guards didn't exactly have lightsabers, now did they? "Well Anakin pwned those slugs, he must be godly!"
I never said he killed Boba, how was it confusing, Biba lands behind him, Luke turns around and disarms him even before he can fire a shot. Maga pwnage.
Because it's not guaranteed Boba would have lost if they started on even keel. Anyone can cheapshot another guy. "Well Sidious killed Agen Kolar before he could react, he must be able to kill 50000 of them!"
Luke swings his saber like a baseball bat, which has proven more than efficient.
Not enough? How about Luke had about 4 months worth of training? How about Luke has never sparred anyone except for Vader, who was a slowass cyborg. How about Luke never actually learning to master the force until after ROTJ? How about Luke not having much battle experience? How about Luke having less potential than Anakin? How about Luke having less training than Anakin?
Oh wait, so some guy with less potential, less training, less understanding of the force, and crappier use of the lightsaber wins?
Because of what? Beating a fried cyborg that had never intended to kill him in the first place? Let's get some logic.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Give it up, Fozzyfan116, your never going to get through to Wesker... he's just going say Luke swings his lightsaber like a baseball bat, make up some bull shit excuses to add to his replies and then say your a Luke fanboy. There's no point trying to get through to him. He's always right.
To tell you the truth, I have asked Ush about the PT fighters > OT fighters thing way back in August, and I thought I had deleted the message, but here it is.
Ushgarak wrote on Aug 21st, 2005 07:31 AM:
He gave an interview shortly before TPM was released, and whilst bringing up the QGJ/Kenobi/Maul duel, said that in the OT, all we ever saw fight was a half-trained boy, a faded old man, and a half-cyborg cripple- and so that, in comparison, the PT would show us the golden age of proper sabre fighting.
P.S. Ushgarak is very supportive of GL's words, so if you don't believe me, be more than welcome to ask him via PM. I have nothing to lose. 🙂
Conflicted fight. Vader clearly doesn't fight back in ROTJ and takes a deliberate spill. Of course, if Luke is your personal god and reason for living, you might not see that at all. Hence, fanboyism.
Luke got the jump on a handful of goons who had no real training and some didn't even have blasters. Most certainly NONE of them had lightsabers. This feat is EASILY replicated and beaten by any PT jedi, so I don't see why you're bothering. This is like saying Bob is a better knight than Arthur because he can ride a horse real good.
WTF? I don't recall him besting Fett. Hell, Solo accidentally finished him off. And regardless, any PT jedi could pwn Fett on a small sail barge with the element of surprise and chaos.
And another insult. No surprises there.
Vader didn't have the advantage? Is that why Luke scurried off to go hide?
Is that why all Vader did was hold up his saber, and Luke didn't even really move his arm?
And Boba is greater than all of the guards there.
Those guards didn't exactly have lightsabers, now did they?
Because it's not guaranteed Boba would have lost if they started on even keel. Anyone can cheapshot another guy.
How about Luke had about 4 months worth of training?
How about Luke has never sparred anyone except for Vader, who was a slowass cyborg.
How about Luke never actually learning to master the force until after ROTJ?
How about Luke not having much battle experience?
How about Luke having less potential than Anakin?
How about Luke having less training than Anakin?
Actually, Wesker provides a lot of proof as to why Luke sucks. You just sit there and deny the fact that you are a Luke fanboy. Your logic is, "Oh, Luke beat a bunch of untrained low-lifes on Jabba's ship. He must be a great Jedi."
He gave an interview shortly before TPM was released, and whilst bringing up the QGJ/Kenobi/Maul duel, said that in the OT, all we ever saw fight was a half-trained boy, a faded old man, and a half-cyborg cripple- and so that, in comparison, the PT would show us the golden age of proper sabre fighting.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Luke overpowers him. He didn't let Luke defeat him. That would be so stupid, only Jar Jar would do that, read the novel, watch the movie, omg. So that's one shitty arguement for you, plus an insult. Congratulations.
Dooku didn't let Anakin kill him either, he still lost when he wasn't trying his best. Ergo this fight doesn't mean anything. Its unlikely Vader wanted his hand to be cut off, but its even more unlikely that he would have killed Luke. Especially when you see that he clearly had the chance but didn't.
No real training, huh? yeah, I'm sure Jabba'd hire guards that had no training. Didn't have blasters because they were better with Vibro-Axes. Seriously, all you guys think blasters are the best weapon there is. None had lightsabers, so what, Vibro-Azes are able to block lightsabers. Which PT Jedi did something this great? Mace in the Geonosian arena. Who else?
Why not? He didn't need seasoned guards he needed muscle... They were perfect for that, who cares if they could fight or not. It wasn't like anybody was stupid enough to go up against him. And dude? Have you even watched the PT? Every single Jedi there, even those stupid one's that died in Geonosis managed to deflect more blaster fire then Luke did.
Never said he finished him, said he bested him, If you don't remember that you are in serious need to see the movie. With the elemnt of surprise? Now you really need to see it again, Biba had the element of surprise, not Luke.
Even if, that doesn't make him a force god or a lightsaber god
Illustrious, are you serious? I understand that you think nothing of Luke but trying to use this as an arguement? You must be getting desperate. "I will not fight." Luke didn't want to kill his father and he most certainly didn't want to turn to the Dark Side.
Yet thats exactly what he did not much later, the point is however. That Vader until that very moment never really fought him and then Luke came out angry and slashed down a Vader that was obviously conflicted and refused to kill him even though he had the chance.
It's called Vibro-axes.
And those are suddenly good weapons? Those things suck compared to a blaster or a lightsaber
You means years?
No days, he trained under Obi Wan for about a day. After that he could barely call a lightsaber towards him. His training was the same one younglings got in AOTC, only Younglings preformed better.
Who's 80% of Sidious.
A statement like that could mean a million things, but it doesn't say anything about Vader his fighting skill or his force mastery perhaps just about his remaining potential.
grievous never mastered it, and he beat numerous Jedi who had mastered it, so no point there.
Oh of course, because the difference between an untrained human and a droid that has upgraded muscles and reflexes and who has fought in wars his entire live is of course nothing. GG was a droid and wtih that he had an advantage and yet still when he was up against a great Jedi he lost.
What? All he ever did was fight.
ANH, who did he fight with a lightsaber? Oh yeah thats right none. ESB who did he fight with a lightsaber? Vader and then he got his hand cut of the second Vader became serious? ROTJ, he fought several people but only Vader would have mattered and that fight is conflicted.
Where does Anakin fit in this thread?
Anakin is Vader you know...
All Wesker had said is Luke swings like a baseball bat. If you call that alot there's something wrong with you.
He and everybody else here that disagrees with you for that matter have already proven a dozen times that everything Luke has done was either because of circumstances and heavily conflicted, or something that could easily be duplicated by any half assed Niman user during the PT times.
Yes, most of the PT people had better saber skills, but this isn't true about everybody. Look at Kolar, Tiin and Fisto. Lucas also says Vader is 80% of Sidious.
Those guys would pwn Luke... And the statement says Luke sucks with a lightsaber, thats what it says. Luke sucks with a lightsaber, want to go against GL now?
and again 80% of Sidious means shit, becaues its 80% raw power not skill with a lightsaber or the force.
Originally posted by Fishy 1. Luke beat Vader, heavily contested even at the very best situation for Luke, Vader couldn't have been fighting at his best because of conflicting emotions.That isn't really backed by anything at all. Vader had no problem killing Obi-Wan in ANH, and had no problem letting Luke die (Or atleast he thought he would die) in ESB. Even if Vader where not fighting his best, if Luke truly sucked than he would not have lost, period.
[QUOTE]He didn't kill Boba, and the situation was confusing, he wouldn't have done so in a 1 on 1 situation .
You couldn't possibly know that. And I don't see why you'd think that.
1. Correct statement. Luke doesn't know a lightsaber form he uses his lightsaber like an idiot he barely has any training and couldn't be as skilled as people who trained for years. [/B]
You mean like Vader, who he defeated? I mean come on, the facts are the facts. Yes Luke uses his saber like a baseball bat, but so do Obi-Wan and Vader. I'd love for Wesker to explain how Obi-Wan's saber skills suddenly vanished between ROTS and ANH if what he says is true and the choreography isn't the issue. Yes he aged, but so did Dooku, Palps and Yoda. Until these loose ends in your argument are tied up with logical explanations, I'm not going to bother responding to your previous few posts cause it'd be a giant waste of time. It's simple logic. They are different movies made at different times with different actors, and you can't compare them and expect everything to connect the way it should. If ROTS where made 20 years ago, Sidous would be smashing his saber around like a bat with the rest of em.
Oh, and your assertion that Vader threw the fight completely is pretty baseless, much like the "Sidious didn't really lose to Mace" nonsense. Ridiculous. Just another side effect of people reading to much into things.
Originally posted by Fozzyfan116
That isn't really backed by anything at all. Vader had no problem killing Obi-Wan in ANH, and had no problem letting Luke die (Or atleast he thought he would die) in ESB. Even if Vader where not fighting his best, if Luke truly sucked than he would not have lost, period.You couldn't possibly know that. And I don't see why you'd think that.
You mean like Vader, who he defeated? I mean come on, the facts are the facts. Yes Luke uses his saber like a baseball bat, but so do Obi-Wan and Vader. I'd love for Wesker to explain how Obi-Wan's saber skills suddenly vanished between ROTS and ANH if what he says is true and the choreography isn't the issue. Yes he aged, but so did Dooku, Palps and Yoda. Until these loose ends in your argument are tied up with logical explanations, I'm not going to bother responding to your previous few posts cause it'd be a giant waste of time. It's simple logic. They are different movies made at different times with different actors, and you can't compare them and expect everything to connect the way it should. If ROTS where made 20 years ago, Sidous would be smashing his saber around like a bat with the rest of em.
Oh, and your assertion that Vader threw the fight completely is pretty baseless, much like the "Sidious didn't really lose to Mace" nonsense. Ridiculous. Just another side effect of people reading to much into things.
You obviously didn't read anything I wrote. Try again.
[
QUOTE=6019919]Originally posted by Wesker
No, I'm not.No, it isn't. I already stated that the choreography was serviceable. It was simply basic, and Luke had no training whatsoever . Likewise, the jedi of the PT era practiced from single digit ages (As we see in AOTC) to perfect their lightsaber ability. You coming in here (Among others) and telling me that Luke "I've never seen nor heard of the force nor used melee weapons until I was 18+ years in ANH" is suddenly better than full grown and trained jedi knights? That is bullshit, choreography aside. Don't argue that kind of nonsense.
*Yawn* ok fine
Yes Luke DID have training from yoda and Obi-Wan. No training what so ever? Don't talk nonsense and expect to get away with it.
You're expecting everything in the movies to make perfect sense but fact is they are films made by people and therefor are not perfect. Somehow, whether it be that he is a skywalker or whatever, he becomes fairly powerful very quickly. Nobody really knows how, all we know is that he does. If you think it is bullshit, call Lucas up and whine about it to him.
And again you think that "frantic" was the key point I was seizing on; it's isn't. Precision; control, defense, and speed. The PT jedi demonstrated these things on screen. Luke, by contrast, shows nowhere near as well of saber control.
Last time I'm saying this. They are different films made at different times with different people. The producers simply did not have the ambition to display that sort of thing. Again, compare Obi-wans saber skills in any of the PT to that of the OT. Please explain that. Sorry but your way off base here, your thinking doesn't take into account that not everything in the movies which where made decades apart makes sense.
Qui Gon and TPM padawan Obi-Wan can deflect dozens of shots in TPM; padawan Anakin (In AOTC) was able to do likewise in the battle arena at Geonosis and at least put on a good show for the masterful count Dooku. Luke couldn't replicate any of those feats. Hell, on the sail barge where maybe three guys had guns, he got shot.
Obviously he got hit so that the audience attention would be on his artificial hand. Like OMGz he g0t shot in the hand!!!! He did a damn fine job of deflecting all the other shots, especially for a guy with "no training what-so-ever" as you so bluntly put it.
This makes no sense and certainly doesn't reflect my logic. Try again.
Then you should have no problem explaining why it doesn't make sense and why it doesn't reflect your logic. Because in reality, anyone with a brain can see it does. You try again.
Really? Aside from the point that you've provided nothing more than your vaunted opinion, you seem to be missing the point that special effects don't effect swordplay. They were swordfighting in Conan the Destroyer on a similar level to swordplay now (Go watch it... ). This is the same movie that has not one, but two clearly rubber monsters who wrestle with Conan. ANH, the lightsabers were cheap and couldn't be used much. For ESB and ROTJ, that's not the case. I have an SW Insider sitting beside my desk that shows how they're made. They CAN handle fighting, and special effects has NOTHING to do with it. So prove up or shut up.
So then why does Vader (Who is what % of sidous and killed how many PT era jedi shortly after ROTS?) still swing his saber like Mark McGwire after ANH? All that proves is the lack of special effects are not to blame. That says nothing about the ambitions of the producer when it comes to choreography. lol at the Conan thing. Because Conan had good sword fighting at around the same time, the SW producers wanted to but didn't. They instead wanted to show us, the audience, just how bad the main character sucks. Now I've heard it all. 😆
I'm so glad you paid attention to the movies.At most Luke spent a few hours playing with a remote in ANH. This doesn't beat years of saber to saber practice. Secondly, nowhere in the movie is Luke made or proclaimed to be a "jedi knight" by Yoda or Obi-Wan.
Actually I think it was 3PO who said it, but it's been a while, not sure. Regardless, It's safe to assume just from hearing it within the first few minutes of ROTJ that Luke achieved that status between the two movies. It's also safe to assume he didn't recieve the honor from R2D2 or C3PO. Start thinking
Talk about changing parameters. This is your unsupported opinion, and it's a huge subjective "What if" being wedged into a hypothetical movie forum versus match to stack the deck in Luke's favor to appease fanboyism. And it's logically bullshit. By YOUR logic I can say that the special effects in ROTJ are crap and Jabba the Hutt was super fast and agile. See how stupid that is? And no evidence, too. Just like your case.
Do the hutts in TPM flip and dash around? No, not at all, so logically there wouldn't be a reason to think something like that. If they DID run marathons in TPM then I would say the lack of CGI limited them in ROTJ or that Jabba was handicap. Pay some damn attention. What I DID say was that the choreography wasn't what it is now, which is true.
So do me a favor... don't argue bias.
After all the attitude you gave me and the nonsense about my argument being biased and driven by fanboyism, you don't qualify for any favors from me.
Originally posted by Fozzyfan116
*Yawn* ok fineYes Luke DID have training from yoda and Obi-Wan. No training what so ever? Don't talk nonsense and expect to get away with it.
You're expecting everything in the movies to make perfect sense but fact is they are films made by people and therefor are not perfect. Somehow, whether it be that he is a skywalker or whatever, he becomes fairly powerful very quickly. Nobody really knows how, all we know is that he does. If you think it is bullshit, call Lucas up and whine about it to him.
Proof in this paragraph - None.
Point of paragraph - Apparently, you're attempting to discredit the movies, despite the fact that in the SW canon hierarachy (Which is an official tool we use to determine evidence here in this forum) is on the top. So now the movies are imperfect, not Luke Skywalker. Somehow, he must be really good in spite of all logic and lack of evidence saying he is really good. Interesting how that works. I especially like the whole "Call Lucas" ploy. Shouldn't you have enough knowledge and conviction in your stance to prove up? Didn't think so.
Last time I'm saying this. They are different films made at different times with different people. The producers simply did not have the ambition to display that sort of thing. Again, compare Obi-wans saber skills in any of the PT to that of the OT. Please explain that. Sorry but your way off base here, your thinking doesn't take into account that not everything in the movies which where made decades apart makes sense.
Again, you obviously don't subscribe to logic. ANH Obi-Wan's fighting style WAS limited by technology. This was covered in the SW Insider entitled "Obi Wan Strikes Back". In the Article "A Noble Knight makes a Noble Sacrifice" they describe that in ANH the lightsabers were made of light wood and had rotating reflectors that were powered by a cord hidden in the participant's sleeve. Because of this they could do little more than jab and poke. However, this is not the case for ESB or ROTJ, where the weapons were able to withstand basic choreography and they did indeed use that. But Luke had little training, so he did surprisingly little in combat. And the BASIC point is that his methods were terrible irregardless of the complexiity of choreography.
Like I said, watch Conan the Destroyer. This was a movie with two huge rubber monsters, and yet Conan was able to do some simple but effective choreography. And their budget was much smaller than SW. You saying that the directing crew didn't have the tech, motivation, or inclination is BS and you should either prove up or shut up.
Obviously he got hit so that the audience attention would be on his artificial hand. Like OMGz he g0t shot in the hand!!!! He did a damn fine job of deflecting all the other shots, especially for a guy with "no training what-so-ever" as you so bluntly put it.
Lovely. You're making the assertion that Luke was shot in the hand NOT because of his lack of lightsaber finesse but because of dramatic neccessity. Now prove up please.
Then you should have no problem explaining why it doesn't make sense and why it doesn't reflect your logic. Because in reality, anyone with a brain can see it does. You try again.
I love those "ne1 with a brain can tel" comebacks. They're always from people who can't PROVE UP.
So then why does Vader (Who is what % of sidous and killed how many PT era jedi shortly after ROTS?) still swing his saber like Mark McGwire after ANH?
Actually, Vader's pretty good with his blade and uses it one-handedly for the most part. Part of this is of course because of his body being artificial and limited, and partly because he doesn't really need to be a ninja to still kill Luke Skywalker. But I love the percentage deal being brought up. Let's totally assume that that equates to saber fighting speed, cuz it doesn't.
All that proves is the lack of special effects are not to blame. That says nothing about the ambitions of the producer when it comes to choreography.
No, it doesn't prove a thing, and you haven't proved a thing either. Unless you have conclusive evidence or a quote from the directors contradicting me, stfu.
lol at the Conan thing. Because Conan had good sword fighting at around the same time, the SW producers wanted to but didn't. They instead wanted to show us, the audience, just how bad the main character sucks. Now I've heard it all. 😆
PROVE UP
Actually I think it was 3PO who said it, but it's been a while, not sure. Regardless, It's safe to assume just from hearing it within the first few minutes of ROTJ that Luke achieved that status between the two movies. It's also safe to assume he didn't recieve the honor from R2D2 or C3PO. Start thinking
lmao
3PO said that? And he is of course, a certified Jedi Master. Wow, so far your proof is an unsubstantiated claim about the director's intentions and the hearsay (Which I sure as hell didn't hear in movie) from a DROID. What's next? Reading from the back of the Luke Skywalker action figure box?
Do the hutts in TPM flip and dash around? No, not at all, so logically there wouldn't be a reason to think something like that. If they DID run marathons in TPM then I would say the lack of CGI limited them in ROTJ or that Jabba was handicap. Pay some damn attention. What I DID say was that the choreography wasn't what it is now, which is true.
No, your claim is still false and unproven. The point is that you are saying Luke is better than he was shown to be in the movie, and this is not substantiated by any evidence other than your own opinion that if the movie was remade it would be better. You seem to ignore the point that the movies AREN'T remade. Why, with your logic I could assume that if AOTC was remade Dooku would beat Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin all at once. He simply couldn't do it because of technological limitations and GL was lazy that day and unambitious.
After all the attitude you gave me and the nonsense about my argument being biased and driven by fanboyism, you don't qualify for any favors from me.
Please. You couldn't offer me any favors other than perhaps shutting up. Come back when you learn to prove your case with something other than "lol" and your opinion.
*Yawn* ok fineYes Luke DID have training from yoda and Obi-Wan. No training what so ever? Don't talk nonsense and expect to get away with it.
You're expecting everything in the movies to make perfect sense but fact is they are films made by people and therefor are not perfect. Somehow, whether it be that he is a skywalker or whatever, he becomes fairly powerful very quickly. Nobody really knows how, all we know is that he does. If you think it is bullshit, call Lucas up and whine about it to him.
First off, arguing against the films is being stupid. Films are the hghest form of Star Wars gospel. If there's a continuity error in the films that Lucas has spotted, he usually comes out and clarifies things. That's the way it always has been. You should whine to Lucas about how the film is "imperfect" and thus it's canon is somehow subjective.
Yes, he clearly mastered abilities with a lightsaber after a few hours with a battle droid and some non-lightsaber training from Yoda! Amazing. So those PT era Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda included), must be really stupid, as it took them decades to learn what Luke does in weeks!
Last time I'm saying this. They are different films made at different times with different people. The producers simply did not have the ambition to display that sort of thing. Again, compare Obi-wans saber skills in any of the PT to that of the OT. Please explain that. Sorry but your way off base here, your thinking doesn't take into account that not everything in the movies which where made decades apart makes sense.
Wesker's stated numerous times that the OT sword fighting is actually more effective than the flashy, spin-15-times-before-you-attack while backflipping PT.
So "technological limitations" make Luke skywalker swing his lightsaber like a baseball bat instead of like any sensible sword fighter? So damn, those people who practice with wooden swords must really suck.
Obviously he got hit so that the audience attention would be on his artificial hand. Like OMGz he g0t shot in the hand!!!! He did a damn fine job of deflecting all the other shots, especially for a guy with "no training what-so-ever" as you so bluntly put it.
And obviously Naga Sadow lost so the audience could come away with the satisfaction of the good guys winning. Obviously Ulic Qel Droma betrayed Exar Kun because the light beats the dark! Obviously Mace is betrayed by Anakin because of the dramatics of his fall.
Yes, it's all over the place. The fact of the matter is that he failed to reflect the blaster and got shot up. A good Jedi Master like Obi-Wan or even AOTC Anakin did not have that happen to him.
So then why does Vader (Who is what % of sidous and killed how many PT era jedi shortly after ROTS?) still swing his saber like Mark McGwire after ANH? All that proves is the lack of special effects are not to blame. That says nothing about the ambitions of the producer when it comes to choreography. lol at the Conan thing. Because Conan had good sword fighting at around the same time, the SW producers wanted to but didn't. They instead wanted to show us, the audience, just how bad the main character sucks. Now I've heard it all.
First off, the percent thing is ambiguous. Is he 80% of Sidious power wise? Force abilities? Saber abilities? None of that is clear. Also, how powerful is 80%? It's also very clear that Vader was conflicted during that fight. He made almost no offensive moves in the entire battle.
Somehow, getting your hand cut off and coming back just a few months later with no additional lightsaber training makes you uber. Uh huh...
And right, because Luke stars in the movie, he's somehow greater than every other character that's ever been written! Wow, now I've seen it all. So apparently Luke, because he was in the OT, is better than Darth Malak, because he wasn't in the movies at all!
Never mind that Darth Malak has far more experience, better training, also has great potential, has demonstrated better feats, and was the creme de la creme of a much stronger era! Yes, movie fanboyism gets you somewhere.
Actually I think it was 3PO who said it, but it's been a while, not sure. Regardless, It's safe to assume just from hearing it within the first few minutes of ROTJ that Luke achieved that status between the two movies. It's also safe to assume he didn't recieve the honor from R2D2 or C3PO. Start thinking
Start proving up.
And take your own advice. Luke is a relatively untrained farmboy, that's even emphasized in the movies and in the EU. So somehow, he becomes a Jedi Knight between the movies and becomes much more powerful even though there's nothing at all to suggest where he gets this ability from besides the all-inclusive "zOMG SKYWALKER POTENTIAL!"
Yeah, like I said, start thinking.
Do the hutts in TPM flip and dash around? No, not at all, so logically there wouldn't be a reason to think something like that. If they DID run marathons in TPM then I would say the lack of CGI limited them in ROTJ or that Jabba was handicap. Pay some damn attention. What I DID say was that the choreography wasn't what it is now, which is true.
Hutts, PT, where?
Also, substantiate your opinion. I could easily say Mace Windu is far better than he is portrayed because Sam Jackson sucks with a sword!
After all the attitude you gave me and the nonsense about my argument being biased and driven by fanboyism, you don't qualify for any favors from me.
"Do me a favor."
"Not a chance."
Congratulations, you get the Doc Daneeka award!
Originally posted by Wesker
Proof in this paragraph - None.Point of paragraph - Apparently, you're attempting to discredit the movies, despite the fact that in the SW canon hierarachy (Which is an official tool we use to determine evidence here in this forum) is on the top. So now the movies are imperfect, not Luke Skywalker. Somehow, he must be really good in spite of all logic and lack of evidence saying he is really good. Interesting how that works. I especially like the whole "Call Lucas" ploy. Shouldn't you have enough knowledge and conviction in your stance to prove up? Didn't think so.
Logic in that paragraph - Null & void
You're incapable of using logic, INCAPABLE. Yes, the movies are imperfect, they don't make perfect sense. YOU explain how Luke beats vader who has been training since he was like 7 or 8. YOU explain why Obi's saber skills went from a 8.5/10 to a -2 (what form was he using in ANH again??) and same for Vader in all 3 films. nobody can because it doesn't make SENSE. They're called plot holes, which are flaws or lapses in logic within the storyline. You keep talking about fanboyism, it seems your fanboyism for SW is blinding you to it's flaws (No our precious Star Wars saga is NOT perfect). You are calling the fact that Luke beat Vader and became powerful with only a short while of training BS. All I recommended to you was that if you're unhappy with the way the storyline in the OT unfolds, protest the man who is responsible for it. Who knows, he might give a ****. This is my last attempt to reason with you.
Lack of evidence saying he is really good? Well I never said he was really good, depends what you consider really good. The evidence is in the films. He defeats Vader and is deemed a Jedi knight by "someone", gee I wonder who.
[QUOTE]Again, you obviously don't subscribe to logic.
Logic isn't something you subscribe to, you either have it or you don't. You my friend don't.
ANH Obi-Wan's fighting style WAS limited by technology. This was covered in the SW Insider entitled "Obi Wan Strikes Back". In the Article "A Noble Knight makes a Noble Sacrifice" they describe that in ANH the lightsabers were made of light wood and had rotating reflectors that were powered by a cord hidden in the participant's sleeve.
That doesn't explain why we don't see some basic saber forms, unless I'm not visualizing the predicament the actors where in properly. Obi's defensive form for example...There were no saber forms period in the OT, they hadn't been incorporated into the SW universe yet. You also don't explain why Vaders saber skills still sucked (judging off choreography) in the next two films. Yes he is in the suit, but he DID slaughter PT jedi after ROTS did he not?
Because of this they could do little more than jab and poke. However, this is not the case for ESB or ROTJ, where the weapons were able to withstand basic choreography and they did indeed use that. But Luke had little training, so he did surprisingly little in combat. And the BASIC point is that his methods were terrible irregardless of the complexiity of choreography.
So where Vaders. He managed to get hit in the shoulder in ESB. Of course he wasn't taking Luke very seriously I don't think, still, if you're a 50 year old guy with years of experience whos been training since the single digits, how do you get hit by someone with little to no training in saber combat? I didn't write the script, if you have a problem with it, like I said, write up a letter to Lucas. Just face it, the trilogy's aren't in perfect sync with one another. Lucas says in the featurettes on one of the PT disks that he wanted to make the saber combat more energetic for the PT films, as opposed to what they did before. That tells me that they didn't have the ambition to do it before. There's your proof, straight from George Lucas. It's common sense really.
Like I said, watch Conan the Destroyer. This was a movie with two huge rubber monsters, and yet Conan was able to do some simple but effective choreography. And their budget was much smaller than SW. You saying that the directing crew didn't have the tech, motivation, or inclination is BS and you should either prove up or shut up.
You're the one who needs to prove up. What does Conan have to do with SW? Different producers, different goals. If you can't grasp that then your not worth my time. It was about ambition, Lucas pretty much said it himself.
Lovely. You're making the assertion that Luke was shot in the hand NOT because of his lack of lightsaber finesse but because of dramatic neccessity. Now prove up please.
No, I am not. But it was a ploy by the writers to draw your attention. That was back when the movies actually had good writing. Yes luke got shot in the hand, he MUST suck. How did Anikan get that scar on his face between AOTC and ROTS? He must suck too
I love those "ne1 with a brain can tel" comebacks. They're always from people who can't PROVE UP.
Much like your response to my initial relative post. Hypocrite. When you "Disprove" what I said, I'll either submit or argue on accordingly. That's the way these things work.
Actually, Vader's pretty good with his blade and uses it one-handedly for the most part. Part of this is of course because of his body being artificial and limited, and partly because he doesn't really need to be a ninja to still kill Luke Skywalker. But I love the percentage deal being brought up. Let's totally assume that that equates to saber fighting speed, cuz it doesn't.
He DIDN'T kill Luke, he got hit by him once and got his hand chopped off by him the other time. Are the movies only canon when it's conveniant for you? Vader showed VERY little saber prowess choreagraphy wise, no more than luke did.
No, it doesn't prove a thing, and you haven't proved a thing either. Unless you have conclusive evidence or a quote from the directors contradicting me, stfu.
Well then it's settled because I do. Lucas said he simply wanted the saber fights to be faster and more energetic for the newer movies. I guess you can stfu yourself then.
PROVE UP
Proven. And I shouldn't need to, it's ALL common sense.
lmao3PO said that? And he is of course, a certified Jedi Master. Wow, so far your proof is an unsubstantiated claim about the director's intentions and the hearsay (Which I sure as hell didn't hear in movie) from a DROID. What's next? Reading from the back of the Luke Skywalker action figure box?
I clearly remember someone (I think it was 3PO) stating right in the beginning of the film the FACT that Luke had become a jedi. Do you really think the writers would include that line in the script if it where null and void.? Course not, they are simply telling the viewers that Luke is a jedi. Simple enough for you? 🤪
No, your claim is still false and unproven. The point is that you are saying Luke is better than he was shown to be in the movie, and this is not substantiated by any evidence other than your own opinion that if the movie was remade it would be better.
No, it's not opinion, it's fact supported by Lucas's own words. It's painfully obvious. You never explained how Vader, a guy who kills PT jedi (In the suit) gets pwned by a guy who sucks at saber combat. And let's not forget mindless exaggerations like "no training whatsoever" lol. Only the desperate exaggerate to that degree
You seem to ignore the point that the movies AREN'T remade. Why, with your logic I could assume that if AOTC was remade Dooku would beat Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin all at once. He simply couldn't do it because of technological limitations and GL was lazy that day and unambitious.
Do you even read my posts? Ok, I'll say it so even the dimmest light in the shed can understand.
Here we go 💃 ehem...
No, I would never assume Dooku could beat Yoda, Obi and Ani at the same time in AOTC if the movie where remade. There is no reason to think that. However, if another film had been made (Decades before the making of AOTC) depicting the events years after it and Dooku's saber skills suddenly "appeared" to suck (Along with everyone elses), I would conclude that the producer/s didn't have the ambition at the time to do things differently. And then if Lucas said on a DVD that he wanted to make the saber fights in the newer movies better (Which he DID), I would conclude that he didn't have the ambition to do what he is doing NOW years ago.
Please. You couldn't offer me any favors other than perhaps shutting up. Come back when you learn to prove your case with something other than "lol" and your opinion.
Come back when you leanr to you use logic and face obvious facts.
Children... 🙄