Anakin and Luke Skywalker(ROTS&ROTJ) Vs Darth Malak

Originally posted by Illustrious
First off, arguing against the films is being stupid. Films are the hghest form of Star Wars gospel. If there's a continuity error in the films that Lucas has spotted, he usually comes out and clarifies things. That's the way it always has been. You should whine to Lucas about how the film is "imperfect" and thus it's canon is somehow subjective.

He can't clarify these things, they are permanent flaws in continuity that are a by-product of him wanting to make the fights in the newer movies more enteraining, and having the means to do so. OMGz, teh SW gospel, lord lucas have mercy...Puhlease. 😆 Idon't have a problem with the films imperfections so why would I whine to him, I'm simply pointing them out for the less observant among us to see.

Yes, he clearly mastered abilities with a lightsaber after a few hours with a battle droid and some non-lightsaber training from Yoda! Amazing. So those PT era Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda included), must be really stupid, as it took them decades to learn what Luke does in weeks!

Yes of course because that is ALL the training luke recieved. There is NO way in hell he could've trained between the movies, no we saw EVERYTHING.

You're in need of a heavy duty reality check. Who said anything about mastering? And I've already mentioned how Luke learning so much in such little time makes no sense. THAT is one of the flaws I talked about, pay attention. Fact is though, movies are canon (right?) and Luke DID become powerful quickly. Like it or not.

So "technological limitations" make Luke skywalker swing his lightsaber like a baseball bat instead of like any sensible sword fighter? So damn, those people who practice with wooden swords must really suck.

Excuse the inconveniance as we sit and wait for Illustrious to catch up with the rest of us. tech limits where hardly the issues, go back and read, I won't repeat myelf again. As bad as Luke appeared to be, Vader got beat and appeared to be "skillwise" no better at all.

And obviously Naga Sadow lost so the audience could come away with the satisfaction of the good guys winning. Obviously Ulic Qel Droma betrayed Exar Kun because the light beats the dark! Obviously Mace is betrayed by Anakin because of the dramatics of his fall.

Your point is? Vader got beat straight up in a duel. There where no variables, no intervention, nothing.

Yes, it's all over the place. The fact of the matter is that he failed to reflect the blaster and got shot up. A good Jedi Master like Obi-Wan or even AOTC Anakin did not have that happen to him.

Does Malak use a blaster? No, so this shouldn't be an issue. And If I recall, Luke was caught a bit off guard, but that may not be right, I'll check when I get the chance.

First off, the percent thing is ambiguous. Is he 80% of Sidious power wise? Force abilities? Saber abilities? None of that is clear. Also, how powerful is 80%? It's also very clear that Vader was conflicted during that fight. He made almost no offensive moves in the entire battle.

conflicted yes, brain dead no. How can a guy who sucks stand up to a guy he has years of experience and training? Simple, he doesn't suck. Why would jedi masters like Yoda and Obi-Wan be ok with luke facing down vader if they didn't think he was strong enough? They protested him doing so in ESB but not in ROTJ. Answer up.

Somehow, getting your hand cut off and coming back just a few months later with no additional lightsaber training makes you uber. Uh huh...

Somehow you keep putting words in my mouth and coming off as a jackass.

And right, because Luke stars in the movie, he's somehow greater than every other character that's ever been written! Wow, now I've seen it all. So apparently Luke, because he was in the OT, is better than Darth Malak, because he wasn't in the movies at all!

Are you for real lol? Again I didn't say that. I think I will just slap you on a list so I'll know to ignore your posts from now on.

Never mind that Darth Malak has far more experience, better training, also has great potential, has demonstrated better feats, and was the creme de la creme of a much stronger era! Yes, movie fanboyism gets you somewhere.

When did I ever say Luke could bet Malak? Say hello to the tin man for me and enjoy the land of Oz

So somehow, he becomes a Jedi Knight between the movies and becomes much more powerful even though there's nothing at all to suggest where he gets this ability from besides the all-inclusive "zOMG SKYWALKER POTENTIAL!"

Yes, he does become a Jedi, hence the name of the film "Return of the Jedi" 😱 and it is stated so in the damn movie. Canon right? Nothing to suggest where he get's what ability from? Are you intoxicated or something?

The movies clearly show that Luke becomes a jedi and that he is skilled enough to take on Vader, the proof is in the pudding. And you, the "movies are gospel" people are telling me that what happens in the movies can't be true because there is no way Luke could have learned all he did in such a short period of time. So pretty much you're being hypocrites and doing the same thing you've been stupidly accusing me of doing. It is your "opinion" that he couldn't do it, but according to the movies, he in FACT did. And he continues to grow at a fast pace in the EU (NJO). Don't like it, write lucas

Hutts, PT, where?

TPM

Also, substantiate your opinion. I could easily say Mace Windu is far better than he is portrayed because Sam Jackson sucks with a sword!

He is. If you go by choreography only (Your logic), just about everyone in the film pwns Mace.

"Do me a favor."

"Not a chance."

Congratulations, you get the Doc Daneeka award!

I didn't ask for any favors, that was Wesker's quote.

Originally posted by Fozzyfan116
Logic in that paragraph - Null & void

You're incapable of using logic, [B]INCAPABLE. Yes, the movies are imperfect, they don't make perfect sense. YOU explain how Luke beats vader who has been training since he was like 7 or 8. YOU explain why Obi's saber skills went from a 8.5/10 to a -2 (what form was he using in ANH again??) and same for Vader in all 3 films. nobody can because it doesn't make SENSE. They're called plot holes, which are flaws or lapses in logic within the storyline. You keep talking about fanboyism, it seems your fanboyism for SW is blinding you to it's flaws (No our precious Star Wars saga is NOT perfect). You are calling the fact that Luke beat Vader and became powerful with only a short while of training BS. All I recommended to you was that if you're unhappy with the way the storyline in the OT unfolds, protest the man who is responsible for it. Who knows, he might give a ****. This is my last attempt to reason with you.

Lack of evidence saying he is really good? Well I never said he was really good, depends what you consider really good. The evidence is in the films. He defeats Vader and is deemed a Jedi knight by "someone", gee I wonder who.

Logic isn't something you subscribe to, you either have it or you don't. You my friend don't.

That doesn't explain why we don't see some basic saber forms, unless I'm not visualizing the predicament the actors where in properly. Obi's defensive form for example...There were no saber forms period in the OT, they hadn't been incorporated into the SW universe yet. You also don't explain why Vaders saber skills still sucked (judging off choreography) in the next two films. Yes he is in the suit, but he DID slaughter PT jedi after ROTS did he not?

So where Vaders. He managed to get hit in the shoulder in ESB. Of course he wasn't taking Luke very seriously I don't think, still, if you're a 50 year old guy with years of experience whos been training since the single digits, how do you get hit by someone with little to no training in saber combat? I didn't write the script, if you have a problem with it, like I said, write up a letter to Lucas. Just face it, the trilogy's aren't in perfect sync with one another. Lucas says in the featurettes on one of the PT disks that he wanted to make the saber combat more energetic for the PT films, as opposed to what they did before. That tells me that they didn't have the ambition to do it before. There's your proof, straight from George Lucas. It's common sense really.

You're the one who needs to prove up. What does Conan have to do with SW? Different producers, different goals. If you can't grasp that then your not worth my time. It was about ambition, Lucas pretty much said it himself.

No, I am not. But it was a ploy by the writers to draw your attention. That was back when the movies actually had good writing. Yes luke got shot in the hand, he MUST suck. How did Anikan get that scar on his face between AOTC and ROTS? He must suck too

Much like your response to my initial relative post. Hypocrite. When you "Disprove" what I said, I'll either submit or argue on accordingly. That's the way these things work.

He DIDN'T kill Luke, he got hit by him once and got his hand chopped off by him the other time. Are the movies only canon when it's conveniant for you? Vader showed VERY little saber prowess choreagraphy wise, no more than luke did.

Well then it's settled because I do. Lucas said he simply wanted the saber fights to be faster and more energetic for the newer movies. I guess you can stfu yourself then.

Proven. And I shouldn't need to, it's ALL common sense.

I clearly remember someone (I think it was 3PO) stating right in the beginning of the film the FACT that Luke had become a jedi. Do you really think the writers would include that line in the script if it where null and void.? Course not, they are simply telling the viewers that Luke is a jedi. Simple enough for you? 🤪

No, it's not opinion, it's fact supported by Lucas's own words. It's painfully obvious. You never explained how Vader, a guy who kills PT jedi (In the suit) gets pwned by a guy who sucks at saber combat. And let's not forget mindless exaggerations like "no training whatsoever" lol. Only the desperate exaggerate to that degree

Do you even read my posts? Ok, I'll say it so even the dimmest light in the shed can understand.

Here we go 💃 ehem...

No, I would never assume Dooku could beat Yoda, Obi and Ani at the same time in AOTC if the movie where remade. There is no reason to think that. However, if another film had been made (Decades before the making of AOTC) depicting the events years after it and Dooku's saber skills suddenly "appeared" to suck (Along with everyone elses), I would conclude that the producer/s didn't have the ambition at the time to do things differently. And then if Lucas said on a DVD that he wanted to make the saber fights in the newer movies better (Which he DID), I would conclude that he didn't have the ambition to do what he is doing NOW years ago.

Come back when you leanr to you use logic and face obvious facts.

Children... 🙄 [/B]

Wow, all those words just to say you can't reason for shit? Impressive!

He can't clarify these things, they are permanent flaws in continuity that are a by-product of him wanting to make the fights in the newer movies more enteraining, and having the means to do so. OMGz, teh SW gospel, lord lucas have mercy...Puhlease. Idon't have a problem with the films imperfections so why would I whine to him, I'm simply pointing them out for the less observant among us to see.

You are whining about them. By saying they are null and invalid you are effectively putting G-Canon as subjective and throwing it out the window. There's no point in even debating with someone who thinks they can twist parameters how they see fit. Just because it's not aesthetically perfect doesn't mean it's not the portrayal as according to George Lucas.

So what next? Yoda isn't green because that may be an imperfection in the movies? Mace isn't really a black guy, he's just really tan? Seriously, take the movies at face value or don't bother.

Yes of course because that is ALL the training luke recieved. There is NO way in hell he could've trained between the movies, no we saw EVERYTHING.

Even if you assume that Luke spent the entire time between movies training (and that is an idealist and unrealistic assumption), he still has far less of an opportunity than PT Jedi. He had no sparring partner, no force training from a young age, and little in the way of formal education that the PT Jedi received.

So that means you... give Luke all the benefit of the doubt in the world? Apparently...

You're in need of a heavy duty reality check. Who said anything about mastering? And I've already mentioned how Luke learning so much in such little time makes no sense. THAT is one of the flaws I talked about, pay attention. Fact is though, movies are canon (right?) and Luke DID become powerful quickly. Like it or not.

WTF? Luke became powerful quickly? No, that is a subjective "fact." Way to go.

Luke beat Vader after a few years of swinging around a saber. That does not establish him as powerful in comparison to individuals such as Malak who have far more experience, training, and demonstrated prowess.

Excuse the inconveniance as we sit and wait for Illustrious to catch up with the rest of us. tech limits where hardly the issues, go back and read, I won't repeat myelf again. As bad as Luke appeared to be, Vader got beat and appeared to be "skillwise" no better at all.

Your exact quote:

Last time I'm saying this. They are different films made at different times with different people. The producers simply did not have the ambition to display that sort of thing. Again, compare Obi-wans saber skills in any of the PT to that of the OT. Please explain that. Sorry but your way off base here, your thinking doesn't take into account that not everything in the movies which where made decades apart makes sense.

So you weren't effectively saying that the "decades apart" represented a technological gap? You weren't saying that the limitations of film making in OT made them have poor form?

Sorry while you don't even have the intelligence to realize what you just said.

Your point is? Vader got beat straight up in a duel. There where no variables, no intervention, nothing.

LMAO. So suddenly "dramatic necessity" is an "intervention."

Okay. Luke got shot straight up with a blaster. No variables, no intervention, nothing; Luke is just bad at blocking blaster fire.

And Vader losing straight up in a duel? Is that why he never even goes so far as do an offensive maneuver? Is that why he is taunting Luke to use the dark side? Yeah, some straight up duel.

When Vader was serious, such as the end of ESB when he took the kiddie gloves off after Luke landed a hit on his shoulder, Vader easily took off his hand. Yet, he somehow does the exact same thing in ROTJ and it's "straight up."

Yup, forgive me while I'm wading through your pool of hyperbolic and subjective BS.

Does Malak use a blaster? No, so this shouldn't be an issue. And If I recall, Luke was caught a bit off guard, but that may not be right, I'll check when I get the chance.

So you're saying that nothing in a fight ever catches someone off guard? Damn, Maul shouldn't have beaten Qui-Gon then, Dooku shouldn't have lost, Obi-Wan shouldn't have beaten Anakin, Aayla never should have been owned by stormtroopers. Nope, no one ever gets caught off guard. How's that a testament to Luke again? First it was "dramatic necessity" that he gets shot, then it's "caught off guard." When will you stop being an apologist and face the facts?

conflicted yes, brain dead no. How can a guy who sucks stand up to a guy he has years of experience and training? Simple, he doesn't suck. Why would jedi masters like Yoda and Obi-Wan be ok with luke facing down vader if they didn't think he was strong enough? They protested him doing so in ESB but not in ROTJ. Answer up.

Because Luke was one of 2 options, one of which was a girl with no force training whatsoever? Yeah, Yoda and Obi-Wan sure had deep pockets when it came to Jedis that could start the "Return of the Jedi."

Somehow you keep putting words in my mouth and coming off as a jackass.

Somehow, the words coming from your mouth sound an awful lot like an apologist and fanboy.

Are you for real lol? Again I didn't say that. I think I will just slap you on a list so I'll know to ignore your posts from now on.

You said, and I quote:

They instead wanted to show us, the audience, just how bad the main character sucks. Now I've heard it all.

So what are you implying? That the main character has to be good? That because he's the main character of the OT he automatically is on a pedastal equal to that of Malak?

No, you're the one who can't even back up your own statements and then tries to avoid them. GG.

When did I ever say Luke could bet Malak? Say hello to the tin man for me and enjoy the land of Oz

Uh huh, and then you come out with this trash:

Does Malak use a blaster? No, so this shouldn't be an issue.

So who is he fighting in this thread? His shadow? Artoo's beeper? You?

Dodging my points doesn't make them go away, they just make you look stupider by the minute.

Yes, he does become a Jedi, hence the name of the film "Return of the Jedi" and it is stated so in the damn movie. Canon right? Nothing to suggest where he get's what ability from? Are you intoxicated or something?

OMG, So I guess a "Jedi Padawan" isn't a Jedi, right?

The fact of the matter is that the hierarchy doesn't exactly exist with a whopping total of 1 guy.

The movies clearly show that Luke becomes a jedi and that he is skilled enough to take on Vader, the proof is in the pudding. And you, the "movies are gospel" people are telling me that what happens in the movies can't be true because there is no way Luke could have learned all he did in such a short period of time. So pretty much you're being hypocrites and doing the same thing you've been stupidly accusing me of doing. It is your "opinion" that he couldn't do it, but according to the movies, he in FACT did. And he continues to grow at a fast pace in the EU (NJO). Don't like it, write lucas

Did you see anyone argue that he didn't beat Vader? And this is the same guy that's saying we put words in your mouth. Wow, what a damn genius.

You, on the other hand, are trying to somehow extrapolate that he's some kickass Jedi as of ROTJ because of a feat that can easily be contested.

And games of semantics, those are fun.

You saw Luke beat Vader and cut off his hand. I saw Vader taunt Luke the whole time and never take one offensive swing at him. So is it canon then that Vader held back?

Oh no, I guess you have to write Lucas now, because your opinion doesn't necessarily go along with the movies!

Do I need to educate you on how silly speculatory extrapolation is?

And since when the hell does NJO count for ROTJ? NJO happens 25 years after ROTJ, your point?

TPM

"Well, they look about the same, I guess that means there's little difference in OT to PT."

He is. If you go by choreography only (Your logic), just about everyone in the film pwns Mace.

Oh, I guess you must have just missed the fact that Mace is a lightsaber prodigy, invented his own form by 13, has been on the council since he was 28, and has been a Jedi his entire life.

Funny how you keep dodging points to make futile attempts to attack someone else, isn't it?

I didn't ask for any favors, that was Wesker's quote.

Wow, that totally went over your head.

Originally posted by Wesker
Wow, all those words just to say you can't reason for shit? Impressive!

You respond with THAT and I'M the one whocan't reason. Give me a break

Originally posted by Illustrious
Mace isn't really a black guy, he's just really tan?

OMG OMG OMG OGM OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!

Originally posted by Illustrious
You are whining about them.

No, I'm not. I'm making mention of them. Show me where I complained, now.

[QUOTE]By saying they are null and invalid you are effectively putting G-Canon as subjective and throwing it out the window. There's no point in even debating with someone who thinks they can twist parameters how they see fit. Just because it's not aesthetically perfect doesn't mean it's not the portrayal as according to George Lucas. So what next? Yoda isn't green because that may be an imperfection in the movies? Mace isn't really a black guy, he's just really tan? Seriously, take the movies at face value or don't bother.

I hope everyone is seeing this. You completely ignored everything I see. Here we are again, way back at this stage. It's sad and pathetic how lackluster your comprehention skills are. Instead of retyping something, I'll just copy paste my own quote from before, maybe you missed it

"Here we go ehem...

No, I would never assume Dooku could beat Yoda, Obi and Ani at the same time in AOTC if the movie where remade. There is no reason to think that. However, if another film had been made (Decades before the making of AOTC) depicting the events years after it and Dooku's saber skills suddenly "appeared" to suck (Along with everyone elses), I would conclude that the producer/s didn't have the ambition at the time to do things differently. And then if Lucas said on a DVD that he wanted to make the saber fights in the newer movies better (Which he DID), I would conclude that he didn't have the ambition to do what he is doing NOW years ago.

See, there is actual logic behind my assesment of the choreography. Your examples are irrelevant and only make you look like a fool. Tell me. Does it make sense to you how everything in the PT looks more modernized and futuristic than the OT era, when the OT takes places years in the future?

Even if you assume that Luke spent the entire time between movies training (and that is an idealist and unrealistic assumption), he still has far less of an opportunity than PT Jedi. He had no sparring partner, no force training from a young age, and little in the way of formal education that the PT Jedi received.

So that means you... give Luke all the benefit of the doubt in the world? Apparently...

No, I go by the facts. He became a Jedi knight between ESB and ROTJ and bested Vader. You're willing to deny the fact that he became powerful fast just because it doesn't make sense that he could. You're right, it doesn't, I agree. But he DOES and that's the way it is like it or not. YOU are the one stretching parameters and going against the movie=canon rule. I can't believe you can't see your own hypocrisy

WTF? Luke became powerful quickly? No, that is a subjective "fact." Way to go

No, it's just a fact. There are no "Subjective facts"

Luke beat Vader after a few years of swinging around a saber. That does not establish him as powerful in comparison to individuals such as Malak who have far more experience, training, and demonstrated prowess.

I didn't say it did 😕

So you weren't effectively saying that the "decades apart" represented a technological gap? You weren't saying that the limitations of film making in OT made them have poor form?

No

Sorry while you don't even have the intelligence to realize what you just said.

Sorry you don't have the intelligence to properly interpret what I said, or the movies for that matter 🙄

LMAO. So suddenly "dramatic necessity" is an "intervention."

Okay. Luke got shot straight up with a blaster. No variables, no intervention, nothing; Luke is just bad at blocking blaster fire.

No, "dramatic necessity is not intervention"

I could say that Vader sucks at blocking light sabers because he got his arm cut off. Hell, so did Anikan, did you see how Dooku chopped off his hand. Anikan practically held his arm out for him. Ooooooohhhhhhhhh.

And Vader losing straight up in a duel? Is that why he never even goes so far as do an offensive maneuver? Is that why he is taunting Luke to use the dark side? Yeah, some straight up duel.

I saw plenty of offensive manuevers, and did he not try and strike Luke down when he put down his guard? "It is unwise to lower your defensive!!!!" followed by an angry swing of his saber that would have sliced him in half had he not ignited and blocked. Yeah, Vader was intent on NOT killing luke alright 🙄 What was this about ME not taking the movies at face value? The idea was to turn Luke to the dark side remember? Yes he taunted him but if he didn't turn then vader would kill him.

When Vader was serious, such as the end of ESB when he took the kiddie gloves off after Luke landed a hit on his shoulder, Vader easily took off his hand. Yet, he somehow does the exact same thing in ROTJ and it's "straight up."

He doesn't do the exact same thing in ROTJ and the fact that Luke landed a hit on him cannot be explained away. Vader underestimated him.

Yup, forgive me while I'm wading through your pool of hyperbolic and subjective BS.

Hypocritical retard 🙄

So you're saying that nothing in a fight ever catches someone off guard? Damn, Maul shouldn't have beaten Qui-Gon then, Dooku shouldn't have lost, Obi-Wan shouldn't have beaten Anakin, Aayla never should have been owned by stormtroopers. Nope, no one ever gets caught off guard. How's that a testament to Luke again? First it was "dramatic necessity" that he gets shot, then it's "caught off guard." When will you stop being an apologist and face the facts?

I said it was a possibility, and if he was caught off guard by a blaster shot, then that speaks poorly of his alertness and not his ability to block blaster fire. And lol it was never "dramatic necessity", your such a dolt.

Because Luke was one of 2 options, one of which was a girl with no force training whatsoever? Yeah, Yoda and Obi-Wan sure had deep pockets when it came to Jedis that could start the "Return of the Jedi."

Your point? Could your post be anymore irrelevant? Probably not.

Somehow, the words coming from your mouth sound an awful lot like an apologist and fanboy.

Somehow, you keep on sounding dumber and dumber with every paragraph, and that's an awefully big "somehow"

So what are you implying? That the main character has to be good? That because he's the main character of the OT he automatically is on a pedastal equal to that of Malak?

You took what I said out of context, the main character doesn't need to be good, but in this case he was. It's just a matter of you not seeing that because you are a anti-luke fanboy in the 3rd degree. I never said he was equal to Malak, get your head out of your ass

No, you're the one who can't even back up your own statements and then tries to avoid them. GG.

Which statment have I not backed? Point specifically please, nothing vague. I keep backing statments with logic and you keep coming back with your mindless bibble babble

So who is he fighting in this thread? His shadow? Artoo's beeper? You?

Malak, who does not use a blaster (To my knowledge) therefor his blaster deflection skills shouldn't be an issue. If you where going up against a master duelest who knew nothing of the force, would your force knowledge (or lack there of) matter much?

Dodging my points doesn't make them go away, they just make you look stupider by the minute.

You haven't raised any points for me to dodge, so far everything you've said is based on ignorance and bias

OMG, So I guess a "Jedi Padawan" isn't a Jedi, right?

The fact of the matter is that the hierarchy doesn't exactly exist with a whopping total of 1 guy.

So the movies aren't canon and Luke wasn't "really a jedi" they just said he was to play games with the audience, right? Ok, sure dude whatever. 😆

Did you see anyone argue that he didn't beat Vader? And this is the same guy that's saying we put words in your mouth. Wow, what a damn genius.

No, the reason I keep stating it is because him defeating Vader puts to rest the notion that he sucks and has no skill, or atleast it should because tht is complete and utter nonsense. You did put words in my mouth and I did NOT put any in yours.

You, on the other hand, are trying to somehow extrapolate that he's some kickass Jedi as of ROTJ because of a feat that can easily be contested.

Didn't say he was a force god (Like you accused me of saying) or that he's better than Malak (Which you also accused me of stating). All I'm arguing is that he isn't the uber weakling you make him out to be. He is a jedi knight capable of taking on suit vader, wielding alight saber, using the force for levitation and the aquisition of knowledge otherwise unattainable ("Vader is on that ship"😉. Not uber feats but far more than any farmboy with no training I know.

And games of semantics, those are fun.

You saw Luke beat Vader and cut off his hand. I saw Vader taunt Luke the whole time and never take one offensive swing at him. So is it canon then that Vader held back?

There is no concrete proof that vader held back at any time and him violently lashing out at Luke doesn't indicate to me that he did.

Oh no, I guess you have to write Lucas now, because your opinion doesn't necessarily go along with the movies!

WTF is that supposed to mean? All I ever said is that if you don't like the way the script is, and you wanna b*tch about it, complain to the guy responsible. You have have the attention span of Terry Schievo

Do I need to educate you on how silly speculatory extrapolation is?

FYI I never speculated anything related to this part of the discussion.

And since when the hell does NJO count for ROTJ? NJO happens 25 years after ROTJ, your point?

Luke becomes the most powerful jedi ever just 25 years after ROTJ in a time when there is little to learn from, it doesn't make any sense at all. But it happens anyway. It's consistent with ROTJ in that he developes his abilities very quickly.

"Well, they look about the same, I guess that means there's little difference in OT to PT."

The hutts don't display any superior traits in TPM (Which takes places years earlier) than jabba does in ROTJ, so your stupid ass special fx counter argument made no sense what so ever.

Oh, I guess you must have just missed the fact that Mace is a lightsaber prodigy, invented his own form by 13, has been on the council since he was 28, and has been a Jedi his entire life.

Uh, yeah. That only serves my point. Visually, he far slower and no where near as coordinated as Obi, Ani, Yoda, Dooku or sids in a duel. Factually, he is on par with some andway better than the others. See, this is where you miss the point every time. If choreography is canon, Anikan destroys him.

In reality, Sam jackson is not a swordsmen and lacked the dexterity to be included in a duel with choreography as complex as that of the others. Him being saber prodigy and being on the council is what proves my point. But you don't seem to get.

Funny how you keep dodging points to make futile attempts to attack someone else, isn't it?

What points did I dodge? Please, if you didn't explain up further, do so now.

Wow, that totally went over your head.

Yeah, stupidity and retarded ass comment often do. I won't bother responding to this one again. I will let whoever feels like reading this crap come in and decide for themselves who is right and wrong. Word around here is that you two are impossible to reason with, looks like the buzz is true. No logic, no competence, nothing. So why bother?

omg omg omg fozzyfan strikes wioth a low blow! Will Ilustrious dpdge it? OR will fall to the ground and cry? Find out next week!

This is Illustrious. She'll find a way....

Or is she a he? 😖

Reveal the truth, Illustrious!

Originally posted by Fozzyfan116
Your point? Could your post be anymore irrelevant? Probably not.

Yeah, and I suppose that statement right there was totally relevant to the topic.

Somehow, you keep on sounding dumber and dumber with every paragraph, and that's an awefully big "somehow"

Are you really that desperate that you would try to beat Illustrious down with insults? You really have a lot to learn about the people here.

You took what I said out of context, the main character doesn't need to be good, but in this case he was. It's just a matter of you not seeing that because you are a anti-luke fanboy in the 3rd degree. I never said he was equal to Malak, get your head out of your ass

You're claiming that Luke is somehow better than a Sith Lord of 22 years when he's had a few weeks of training, if that, and none of it save for the first few hours of training droid practice is actually relevant to lightsabers. I'd say you need to follow your own advise and get your own head out of your ass.

Which statement have I not backed? Point specifically please, nothing vague. I keep backing statments with logic and you keep coming back with your mindless bibble babble

What have you backed? If you'd successfully backed anything, we wouldn't be having this argument, now would we?

Malak, who does not use a blaster (To my knowledge) therefor his blaster deflection skills shouldn't be an issue. If you where going up against a master duelest who knew nothing of the force, would your force knowledge (or lack there of) matter much?

And what the hell are you smoking? What does this have to do with anything? If Luke hasn't reached the level of lightsaber proficiency where he can block blaster bolts successfully, from under a half a dozen people no less, how does he have enough skill to challenge a Sith Lord who was surpassed by only one other in his era? Zett Jukassa showed more ability than Luke did, taking down several clones and deflecting blasts from many others before being brought down. A ten year-old was able to handle soldiers bred and trained for war, while Luke got shot in the hand when he faced five or six goons with guns.

You haven't raised any points for me to dodge, so far everything you've said is based on ignorance and bias

Oh, that's not what I've seen, and I have many people who'll agree. Now I'm sure that this'll be met with a sarcastic remark or, my favorite, "then u need 2 get ur I's checked!" But hey, if you want argue on ignorance and bias, knock yourself out. I haven't had the pleasure of arguing with someone as cocky and ignorant as you since vercetti.

So the movies aren't canon and Luke wasn't "really a jedi" they just said he was to play games with the audience, right? Ok, sure dude whatever. 😆

That's not the point. We heard the "luke iz a Jeedi!!" statement from a protocol droid who doesn't recall ever meeting a real Jedi. If you want to use random people as sources, then Obi-Wan is "bantha poojoo" because some Dug named him so in AtoC.

No, the reason I keep stating it is because him defeating Vader puts to rest the notion that he sucks and has no skill, or atleast it should because tht is complete and utter nonsense. You did put words in my mouth and I did NOT put any in yours.

No, it doesn't, because you keep side-stepping the fact that the fight was contested. I suppose Anakin can WTFpwn Dooku because he killed him in RotS, right?

Didn't say he was a force god (Like you accused me of saying) or that he's better than Malak (Which you also accused me of stating). All I'm arguing is that he isn't the uber weakling you make him out to be. He is a jedi knight capable of taking on suit vader, wielding alight saber, using the force for levitation and the aquisition of knowledge otherwise unattainable ("Vader is on that ship"😉. Not uber feats but far more than any farmboy with no training I know.

And games of semantics, those are fun.

I'll give him one thing; he's good for the amount of training he's had. But nothing beyond that. "Taking on suit-Vader"? A questionable victory at best. Wielding a lightsaber? Every single Youngling in the PT. I bet they can challenge Malak and pwn Vader, too! Levitation? AotC Anakin chucks metal robotics at Geonosians, rips apart a Wookie structure as Vader in DL, and tears heavy tanks, pipes, and whatnot off the walls and knocks Luke out a window in ESB. W00t1!! Levitashien1!!

There is no concrete proof that vader held back at any time and him violently lashing out at Luke doesn't indicate to me that he did.

No, but everything we have points to that conclusion. As soon as Luke pisses him off in ESB, he WTFpwns him inside of five seconds. In RotJ, he's constantly goading his son, telling him to use the Dark Side - just as Dooku did decades before - and barely ever goes on the offensive. If Vader had been willing to kill Luke, he would have. But by what he says in both ESB and RotJ, we know that he wanted to turn Luke, not kill him.

WTF is that supposed to mean? All I ever said is that if you don't like the way the script is, and you wanna b*tch about it, complain to the guy responsible. You have have the attention span of Terry Schievo

You know, that Schievo comment can be considered as crossing an ethical line, but I'll let Illustrious deal with it.

FYI I never speculated anything related to this part of the discussion.

Everything you present is speculation.

Luke becomes the most powerful jedi ever just 25 years after ROTJ in a time when there is little to learn from, it doesn't make any sense at all. But it happens anyway. It's consistent with ROTJ in that he developes his abilities very quickly.

This has to do with what, exactly?

The hutts don't display any superior traits in TPM (Which takes places years earlier) than jabba does in ROTJ, so your stupid ass special fx counter argument made no sense what so ever.

The Hutts don't do anything, smartass. Unless I missed a lightsaber duel between Jabba and Leia.

What points did I dodge? Please, if you didn't explain up further, do so now.

You "dodge" every point thrown at you in one way or another.

"Malak doesn't use blaster, so deflection ability is irrelevant."

Yeah, stupidity and retarded ass comment often do. I won't bother responding to this one again. I will let whoever feels like reading this crap come in and decide for themselves who is right and wrong. Word around here is that you two are impossible to reason with, looks like the buzz is true. No logic, no competence, nothing. So why bother?

For the record, most people here are against you in this argument. And where does this "buzz"come from? Darthsith? The onlt reason you people would consider them "incompetent" is because they waste your asses in every debate you clash in, and you can't understand why.

Indeed. I wonder who Fozzyfan116 really is, since they seem to be on a quest here.

No, I'm not. I'm making mention of them. Show me where I complained, now.

You claimed the gap in technology is what separates Luke from whatever pedastal you want him placed in. You think that him beating Vader in and of itself should speak for itself against other individuals with a totally different context.

"Anakin killed all the Sand People, he must be godly!"

I hope everyone is seeing this. You completely ignored everything I see. Here we are again, way back at this stage. It's sad and pathetic how lackluster your comprehention skills are. Instead of retyping something, I'll just copy paste my own quote from before, maybe you missed it

See, there is actual logic behind my assesment of the choreography. Your examples are irrelevant and only make you look like a fool. Tell me. Does it make sense to you how everything in the PT looks more modernized and futuristic than the OT era, when the OT takes places years in the future?

No, your example is invalid because you compared two different Dookus.

We never see mechanized Vader or Luke Skywalker fight in the OT. Even by Lucas' account, Vader as a mech was far slower than he was in ROTS. Luke did not exhibit lightsaber speed that was any faster or he certainly wouldn't have had his hand lopped off.

No, I go by the facts. He became a Jedi knight between ESB and ROTJ and bested Vader. You're willing to deny the fact that he became powerful fast just because it doesn't make sense that he could. You're right, it doesn't, I agree. But he DOES and that's the way it is like it or not. YOU are the one stretching parameters and going against the movie=canon rule. I can't believe you can't see your own hypocrisy

The movies never said "Luke Skywalker is powerful." Or "Luke Skywalker is the best Jedi ever."

You're somehow twisting Luke beating Vader when Vader never uses an offensive attack as Luke being the best thing since sliced cheese. That he is indefinitely powerful simply because of one, conflicted feat. Good job, true mastery of debating there.

No, it's just a fact. There are no "Subjective facts"

So if I pit Luke Skywalker versus Lucifer Morningstar, he'd still be "powerful"? No, powerful is a subjective term. No where in ROTJ or prior to that did it ever imply Luke Skywalker was powerful amongst those individuals whom we are comparing them to. If it did, offer the canon proof.

Sorry you don't have the intelligence to properly interpret what I said, or the movies for that matter

Yes, because "They are different films made at different times with different people. The producers simply did not have the ambition to display that sort of thing. Again, compare Obi-wans saber skills in any of the PT to that of the OT" means nothing, right?

You get that point shoved down your throat and suddenly "whoops, it wasn't the real Fozzyfan that wrote it. Guess what? You were saying in one way or another that the OT choreography, technology, or the related in those particular lightsaber fights were inferior or unmotivated and led towards a less flashy performance than the PT.

Sorry, that's complaining about the OT canon. OT canon shows Luke moving slower, less effectively, and swinging his lightsaber to a poorer level of proficiency than Anakin, or even Malak in his brief FMVs.

Hell, some of the comics even look like they swing better than Luke Slug... errr Skywalker.

Just because you can't even remember what you said doesn't indicate that I don't have the intelligence (which I guarantee far surpasses yours) to understand, Terry Schiavo.

No, "dramatic necessity is not intervention"

I could say that Vader sucks at blocking light sabers because he got his arm cut off. Hell, so did Anikan, did you see how Dooku chopped off his hand. Anikan practically held his arm out for him. Ooooooohhhhhhhhh.

Yes, and so did Luke, so this is a wash. You still have not proven how Luke is better other than "zOMG he beat mechanized Vader who never attacked him!"

I saw plenty of offensive manuevers, and did he not try and strike Luke down when he put down his guard? "It is unwise to lower your defensive!!!!" followed by an angry swing of his saber that would have sliced him in half had he not ignited and blocked. Yeah, Vader was intent on NOT killing luke alright What was this about ME not taking the movies at face value? The idea was to turn Luke to the dark side remember? Yes he taunted him but if he didn't turn then vader would kill him.

Yes, that explains why Vader doesn't move in on Luke when he Luke was reeling in the fight, or when Vader was pressing him, he didn't take his life. Yes, let's cite the one example where he swung in order to taunt him and use it as the centerpiece for my argument! Genius.

He doesn't do the exact same thing in ROTJ and the fact that Luke landed a hit on him cannot be explained away. Vader underestimated him.

And when he stopped, he diced off his hand. Yet somehow, in the rematch, when he moves as lethargically as before, he's not holding back and trying to kill him? Where's your logic behind this?

Hypocritical retard 🙄

Yep, that mirror is working.

I said it was a possibility, and if he was caught off guard by a blaster shot, then that speaks poorly of his alertness and not his ability to block blaster fire. And lol it was never "dramatic necessity", your such a dolt.

The guy that can't even spell "you're" correctly is attempting to insult me as a dolt, wonderful.

Yes, after a quote like "Obviously he got hit so that the audience attention would be on his artificial hand" you're not even implying there was dramatic necessity on the part of him getting hit. Because clearly, dramatic necessity certainly doesn't indicate doing something for the audience's entertainment purposes... oh wait, it does. Get your head out of your ass.

Your point? Could your post be anymore irrelevant? Probably not.

LMFAO, you say "why would Yoda and Obi-Wan send Luke to face Vader if he wasn't ready" and I respond with "they don't have any other options."

Yet it's irrelevant? Because wait, Yoda and Obi-Wan sending their only option means that he's somehow superior?

What's your point? If it's not that Luke is comparable to Malak, you don't have one.

Somehow, you keep on sounding dumber and dumber with every paragraph, and that's an awefully big "somehow"

Funny, I guess you have to gripe about something with your pseudointellectuallism, even if it is completely untrue.

You took what I said out of context, the main character doesn't need to be good, but in this case he was. It's just a matter of you not seeing that because you are a anti-luke fanboy in the 3rd degree. I never said he was equal to Malak, get your head out of your ass

So you come into this thread complaining that it was technological limitations and lack of "ambition" that limits Luke from being portrayed as better, get that point shoved down your throat, and run back to mommy with "it was never my point!"

Uh huh, so you don't have a point, you're just taking every opportunity you have to bolster ROTJ Luke, right?

Which statment have I not backed? Point specifically please, nothing vague. I keep backing statments with logic and you keep coming back with your mindless bibble babble

LMAO. Which argument have you backed? Clearly not this one:

Yes of course because that is ALL the training luke recieved. There is NO way in hell he could've trained between the movies, no we saw EVERYTHING.

Where, what, and with whom had he trained?

This statement is so well supported that... there is no support. Either you are the inventer of the invisible supporting evidence, or you're talking out of your ass.

conflicted yes, brain dead no. How can a guy who sucks stand up to a guy he has years of experience and training? Simple, he doesn't suck.

If X = B, X != A works in discrete mathematics, but not with continuous and subjective terms. In case you didn't know, things like "suck" or "powerful" are subjective terminology.

Then have the rest of your post was completely dodging the point (note the "irrelevant" dribble you like posting).

You haven't raised any points for me to dodge, so far everything you've said is based on ignorance and bias

Yes, because debating with EU characters is ignorance and bias. Just because I'm not a movie fanboy that jumps on Luke's nuts (like you apparently), I'm ignorant and biased. Seriously, do you have the ROTJ DVD. Pop it in right now and tell me how Vader fights to his best, please. Pop it in right now and tell me how Luke doesn't swing his lightsaber like a baseball bat.

Oh right, because the film producers were so unambitious, that they didn't tell him the proper way to hold a weapon. And you say you aren't complaining about canon presentation.

Malak, who does not use a blaster (To my knowledge) therefor his blaster deflection skills shouldn't be an issue. If you where going up against a master duelest who knew nothing of the force, would your force knowledge (or lack there of) matter much?

Yeah, because not being able to deflect a blaster doesn't indicate anything about Lightsaber proficiency, right? It's not indicative of your ability to use a lightsaber at all. 🙄

Didn't say he was a force god (Like you accused me of saying) or that he's better than Malak (Which you also accused me of stating). All I'm arguing is that he isn't the uber weakling you make him out to be. He is a jedi knight capable of taking on suit vader, wielding alight saber, using the force for levitation and the aquisition of knowledge otherwise unattainable ("Vader is on that ship"😉. Not uber feats but far more than any farmboy with no training I know.

Is that why he is described as such in DE?

And these feats have what context to this versus fight? Oh wait, they're irrelevant, like the rest of the jargon you posted.

There is no concrete proof that vader held back at any time and him violently lashing out at Luke doesn't indicate to me that he did.

And him taunting at Luke and never once pressing his advantage indicates to me he clearly wasn't fighting his best.

WTF is that supposed to mean? All I ever said is that if you don't like the way the script is, and you wanna b*tch about it, complain to the guy responsible. You have have the attention span of Terry Schievo

If that was the case, you don't even know what an attention span is, as you've never had one.

The fact of the matter is your interpretation of the movie is not canon, you can not come here and say "well I thought Vader fought his best, therefore Luke is better than we give him credit for."

Apparently you've gone on the belief that no one here has seen ROTJ but you.

Luke becomes the most powerful jedi ever just 25 years after ROTJ in a time when there is little to learn from, it doesn't make any sense at all. But it happens anyway. It's consistent with ROTJ in that he developes his abilities very quickly.

Yes, because grabbing a crystal, finding a holocron, defeating DE Sidious starting the new Jedi Order under the guidance of Jedi Ghosts, and the like means there's nothing to learn from, right?

The hutts don't display any superior traits in TPM (Which takes places years earlier) than jabba does in ROTJ, so your stupid ass special fx counter argument made no sense what so ever.

They don't display anything! Therefore, by your logic, British guards never move, because they aren't shown moving on TV; Darth Sidious in ROTJ is weaker because he doesn't swing around with a lightsaber as of ROTS.

Because absence of proof is proof of absence. Clearly you're drinking the wrong side of the coolaid.

Uh, yeah. That only serves my point. Visually, he far slower and no where near as coordinated as Obi, Ani, Yoda, Dooku or sids in a duel. Factually, he is on par with some andway better than the others. See, this is where you miss the point every time. If choreography is canon, Anikan destroys him.

In reality, Sam jackson is not a swordsmen and lacked the dexterity to be included in a duel with choreography as complex as that of the others. Him being saber prodigy and being on the council is what proves my point. But you don't seem to get.

It doesn't prove your point because Luke does not have anywhere near the credentials. We know of Mace Windu's abilities, prowess, and credentials as of ROTS. We know he has extensive training, prodigious talent, and Jedi discipline.

Luke has none of that, yet somehow using his choreography is not a valid argument when it indicates he does not have great skill with a lightsaber. Uh huh.

What points did I dodge? Please, if you didn't explain up further, do so now.

Wow, I don't know what's scarier, the fact you're still debating about nothing, or the fact you don't even know you're coughing up nothing but hot air.

When I wrote: "So "technological limitations" make Luke skywalker swing his lightsaber like a baseball bat instead of like any sensible sword fighter? So damn, those people who practice with wooden swords must really suck."

You have no response and you decide to post "Excuse the inconveniance as we sit and wait for Illustrious to catch up with the rest of us. tech limits where hardly the issues, go back and read, I won't repeat myelf again. As bad as Luke appeared to be, Vader got beat and appeared to be "skillwise" no better at all."

Nevermind that you posted this garbage:

[quote]And again you think that "frantic" was the key point I was seizing on; it's isn't. Precision; control, defense, and speed. The PT jedi demonstrated these things on screen. Luke, by contrast, shows nowhere near as well of saber control.

Last time I'm saying this. They are different films made at different times with different people. The producers simply did not have the ambition to display that sort of thing.[/quote]

Oh, of course not! You never once implied that the OT had inferior tech and cinematography and tried to use that as an excuse.

Where's your argument, when you go download one, I'll point out all of your glaring logical fallacy and inconsistencies.

Sorry, but callling me stupid when you can't even insult me correctly doesn't serve or function very well for you.

Yeah, stupidity and retarded ass comment often do. I won't bother responding to this one again. I will let whoever feels like reading this crap come in and decide for themselves who is right and wrong. Word around here is that you two are impossible to reason with, looks like the buzz is true. No logic, no competence, nothing. So why bother?

Because asking you to justify and substantiate your opinion doesn't constitute logic, right?

Apparently saying "look at teh pOLl!" is logic, or arguing that "Luke has bad cinematography/choreography/technology, he is bettah than he looks!" somehow is logic.

Get real, until you you even know what "proof" means, don't bother.

And it is real convenient to run away and hide now that you get your last insult in, isn't it?

OHMIGOD, I can do the same thing!

"Apparently you don't know what proof, debate, argument, and substantiation is. Your entire argument hinges on debating a subjective term that you have never provided evidence or logical deduction for. The fact that I used a Catch-22 reference (which clearly goes over your little head) and that you call it stupid doesn't serve you very well. Because apparently good literature is akin "stupidity and retarded ass comments."

Oh, and the fact that you can't even make a poignant insult, or that you misspell "you're" when you're trying to call me a dolt, or when you dodge points and proclaim yourself the victor of a debate sure speaks volumes for ya, doesn't it?

Yep, so you've been shown to be bested by a Terry Schiavo, dolt that is unable to reason. Good job, I guess that makes you less intelligent than the vegetables planted outside my house right now!"

Brilliant, you could not get more dense, congrats.

Why are people still argueing on this...

Malak had pretty good swordsplay, Anakin would get ripped apart. And you think that Luke could saved the day?

We do not know that. All we saw was what was on the gameplay itself and that doesn't tell us much. Malak hardly shown any great force powers and really it seems you give far too much credit to the KoToR Jedi/Sith.

Also why would Vader hold back in ROTJ? It was clear he tried to kill Luke on the platform when he tossed his lightsaber up there trying to kill him. When Vader said he would try to turn Luke's sister to the dark side Luke when berserk and attacked Vader and if you watch ROTJ at that point you will see that Vader is scared of Luke. I mean Vader gets knocked down and gets his hand chopped off. Some me proof that Vader would hold back when his life is on the line?
That's like saying Dooku threw the fight in ROTS to Anakin just to get his head chopped off.

Damn. Illustrious nailed it.

I say Malak wins. Hes uber.

Anakin alone would RAPE malak. Fozzy fan is pretty much a raging hormone fanboy of malak

Originally posted by Kadesh
Anakin alone would RAPE malak. Fozzy fan is pretty much a raging hormone fanboy of malak

Malak is not a joke or something. He was very powerful and it took a Jedi more powerful then Anakin to bring him down to his knees in the final fight.

Anakin can defeat Malak but this fight can go either way depending upon the factor that whether this is Malak (at his prime) or normal Malak. Malak was also a master swordman and a fine Force adept and he is not an easy challenge.

Malak was a joke. If Anakin hits me with a lightsaber, I would split into two pieces and die. If Malak hits me, a number between 1 and 100 will appear and I "lose health".

And if I "die", I will rise up as soon as Bastila has killed him.