Originally posted by demigawdAs for where Roma gets her authority - it's unspecified. I think it has something to do with a long line of omniversal guardians, like Merlin, etc. It has nothing to do with the Phoenix Force. In fact, it exists outside of the multiverse, so it's not even part of the Phoenix Force.
Rubbish!! Just wishful thinking. My birds involved with everything 😉
Otherworld was created with the energy matrix Phoenix established around the multiverse. 😄
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
At this point I don't think it's a matter of how much power, but how it's used. So you say Wanda says, "Be gone, Adam Warlock." Before she's finished her thought, since he has the IG, he knows what she wants to do (just as he knew the result of his trial before it took place), travels back in time and assasinates Wanda before HOM. Or he uses the mind gem to make her say "Scarlet Witch" instead of "Adam Warlock." Or he speedblitzes her, rips her heart out and stuffs in in her mouth.The thing is, just because Wanda has that power doesn't mean she knows how to use it most effectively. She doesn't think on the same level as Warlock and Thanos and Strange. In this fight, that would be her undoing.
But remember - Wanda instantaneously changed the entire Marvel Universe, and its history, AND was able to tap into Xavier's telepathy to give everybody what they want. It was in an instant...it wasn't a struggle.
I could see your point if it took Wanda a long time to do all of that, but it didn't. Likewise, when she said, "no more mutants"...that was it.
You don't really need to have a fine tuned understanding of what to do when you operate on her level of power. You sort of do when you have the IG, which is why it's more effective for some people than for others. Wanda literally makes anything she wants happen. So I don't think her intelligence vs. Warlock's intelligence is as much of a factor as you're making it out to be.
If she could instantly create as much detail as she did, she could instantly override Warlock.
GS - I'll deal with you later.
Originally posted by Diunic
Wait a minute I agree w/ almost everything GS says!!!! But GS has to admit that a host w/ the PF is much much lower than PF itself and principally that PH DO NEEDS a host what will automatically low it's power level to a class lower than HOTU, IG.
haha...well, if THAT'S your point of disagreement, then you don't agree with almost everything he says. *I* agree with GS in that the Phoenix Force is super important, but I don't think it carries over to the combat abilities of Jean or Rachel or any other host/avatar. And if you don't agree with that, then fundamentally, you don't agree with GS
Originally posted by demigawd
But remember - Wanda instantaneously changed the entire Marvel Universe, and its history, AND was able to tap into Xavier's telepathy to give everybody what they want. It was in an instant...it wasn't a struggle.I could see your point if it took Wanda a long time to do all of that, but it didn't. Likewise, when she said, "no more mutants"...that was it.
You don't really need to have a fine tuned understanding of what to do when you operate on her level of power. You sort of do when you have the IG, which is why it's more effective for some people than for others. Wanda literally makes anything she wants happen. So I don't think her intelligence vs. Warlock's intelligence is as much of a factor as you're making it out to be.
If she could instantly create as much detail as she did, she could instantly override Warlock.
GS - I'll deal with you later.
Not at all. Emma Frost read Wandas mind and knew what she was going to do but of course couldnt act sufficiently in the short time she had (HOM 7)
If Warlock is omniscient he will be able to deal with Wanda prior to her applying her power.
On top of that alot of your argument is still based on assumptions concerning Wandas actual feats. Assumptions which arent verified on panel. I think theres gonna be alot of tears all around when Wandas bio comes out in a few months. 😉
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not at all. Emma Frost read Wandas mind and knew what she was going to do but of course couldnt act sufficiently in the short time she had (HOM 7)If Warlock is omniscient he will be able to deal with Wanda prior to her applying her power.
On top of that alot of your argument is still based on assumptions concerning Wandas actual feats. Assumptions which arent verified on panel. I think theres gonna be alot of tears all around when Wandas bio comes out in a few months. 😉
Emma knew what she was going to do because Wanda was in mid-speech when she decided it. There's a pretty big difference between that and making the decision to obliterate someone and doing it - the time between which was an instant.
NOBODY saw what was coming when Wanda created HoM. Not Strange, not Emma...nobody.
Originally posted by demigawd
haha...well, if THAT'S your point of disagreement, then you don't agree with almost everything he says. *I* agree with GS in that the Phoenix Force is super important, but I don't think it carries over to the combat abilities of Jean or Rachel or any other host/avatar. And if you don't agree with that, then fundamentally, you don't agree with GS
Jean as stated in Classic X-men and even in the latest bio is literally a part of the Phoenix. She was created as a form through which Phoenix could act on the physical plane without detrimental effects on reality.
Jean has manipulated 616 in the palm of her hand and contained the crystal, how can you doubt her power? 😕
Originally posted by demigawd
Emma knew what she was going to do because Wanda was in mid-speech when she decided it. There's a pretty big difference between that and making the decision to obliterate someone and doing it - the time between which was an instant.NOBODY saw what was coming when Wanda created HoM. Not Strange, not Emma...nobody.
Adams omniscient so he would see it coming. Emma and DS are not. Moot.
As promised, I'm not going to go point by point with GS.
All his basic bluster pretty much comes down to a few points, which I'll address here.
1) Phoenix doesn't need a host to interact with the physical plane.
Untrue. All the examples you named were of Phoenix acting etherially. That even includes Le Bete Noir, who was a spiritual force who was punished by being given form. And don't tell me that it's not supported anywhere in the bio. Go back to my post about it - I quoted directly FROM the bio.
Phoenix, needing a host to act, sought out Necrom
Is there some part of that you didn't understand?
2) Phoenix doesn't physically overwhelm the host, only mentally
I'm not sure where this whole thing came from, or why you bothered devoting hundreds of words to the topic. I never specified whether the overwhelming is physical, mental, or spiritual. I just quoted the bio, which pretty clearly stated that the host ARE prone to being overwhelmed if given too much power. Again, I quoted her bio directly when saying so. What difference does it make HOW they're overwhelmed...just that the Phoenix is worried that they ARE overwhelmed. Even in your own scans, Jean says she dare not get too close to the Phoenix, or she'll be replaced.
That alone pretty clearly means that any host is going to only have a fraction of the true power of the Phoenix Force.
You also posted a scan of someone being unable to mentally cope with the Phoenix power. ok....we know that. Not everybody can cope with the idea of a second consciousness digging around in their head. Not everybody has the willpower to wield a GL ring, either. It doesn't make the ring all-powerful just because it takes a "special person" to wield it.
Phoenix avatars = Green Lantern corps.
3) All of Phoenix's pwnages are easily explained away
Yes, by the limitation of the hosts. Whether it's a mental limitation or a physical limitation, it's still a limitation brought on by the host. If the host is destroyed, that's it for the Phoenix.
4) Wanda's chaos wave isn't hers
Roma said it's originating from Earth 616. Meggan is standing on the other side of the breach, and seeing the chaos wave flowing from inside of Earth 616. When Rachael and Psylocke entered Earth 616, they were immediately re-programmed to fit into whatever Wanda's vision was. If it were just a regular altered reality, that wouldn't have happened. They were consumed by the chaos energy that was all over the 616 reality.
In Exiles, they said REALITY 616 was unavailable because of some type of blockage creating a haze they couldn't penetrate. Hmm...I wonder what that "haze" could be.
It's pretty obvious there was a constant energy matrix eminating from the Earth that was altering the entire reality. Who could have generated that?
5) Wanda only altered the Earth.
Um...Otherworld was affected. She reached into Dormammu's domain and yanked him out (DORMAMMAMU!!!). Clearly she's reached beyond the Earth.
Also, like I said, Exiles said the entire 616 reality was affected and unavailable. They ended up going in blind.
And in the scan I showed, we see planets crashing together, alien races, and Galactus.
No, it's not just the Earth.
Also, the idea that by altering Earth's history, she was able to, by extension, alter the history of the universe is interesting, but just brings up the philosophical point - if you can alter someone's history, aren't you altering THEM? Essentially, it IS of universal proportions, and you can make it so anytime you'd like just by altering history in any way you'd like. She made lifelong enemies into best friends. She created treaties and peace pacts and intergalactic wars all reach outcomes favorable to the people SHE wanted to win. Either way, it's speculation, and the additional evidence I cited all works in my favor.
Simple enough.
Originally posted by demigawd
GS - I'll deal with you later.
😆
i for one cannot WAIT!!
well done, gs. an epic clash between 2 high level jla'ers!
anyway, leaving the ever-loving pf for a while . . . (btw, people may hate when pf is raised, but it DOES always incite some great discussion!)
gs does have a point regarding the apparent omniscience of the IG wearer. when thanos temporarily shut himself off from sesnory input of the gauntlet to battle the heroes, he stated that he would now no longer know what they were going to do before they did it. that would seem to imply he might be able to sort of 'head her off' before she could use her power on him.
it also seems to stand to reason that with total control ofn reality, the IG wearer should be able to do the same things wanda is capable of doing, though no real on-panel evidence supports this notion.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean as stated in Classic X-men and even in the latest bio is literally a part of the Phoenix. She was created as a form through which Phoenix could act on the physical plane without detrimental effects on reality.Jean has manipulated 616 in the palm of her hand and contained the crystal, how can you doubt her power? 😕
No evidence to show that was literally the universe she was holding vs. a representative image. Besides, Wanda likewise altered the universe. Past and present simultaneously. And she didn't even have to get herself killed by Xorn to do it. So what?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Adams omniscient so he would see it coming. Emma and DS are not. Moot.
Given that Wanda knew Pietro was killed, despite being someplace else entirely would show that she's omniscient as well. Quickdraw, with power edge to Wanda.
Originally posted by Diunic
I agree w/GS Cosmic Hierarchy, but I don't think that only because someone hosts the PF this person will be unbeatable or omnipotent. Only the WhiteCrown is
For the record, I also agree with GS's cosmic hierarchy. But like you, I don't agree that it makes Jean or Rachael awesomely powerful because of it.
Originally posted by demigawd
Oh wait, I'm not done punishing GS yet...Let's re-examine GS's most precious Phoenix feat - repairing the M'Kraan Crystal. Most people take that as a given because they don't bother scrutinizing the 50+ pages of drivel he spouts. I let it stand because I know it's important to GS, but I think it's time for that grace period to end...
Uncanny X-men #108. If you have it, turn to it. If you don't, read the details here:
http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=1401
Note a few things:
It's actually SCOTT who cracks the crystal, not D'Ken. Yes, a basic optic blast starts the end of the universe.
So what was it that's breaking free that mighty Scott Summers unleashed?
A neutron galaxy. What does this neutron galaxy do?
Oh...so that's it? A baby universe is there and will replace this one? Sounds kinda Infinity Gauntlet level.
OK, so we're looking at the end of the universe. But luckily, we have the almighty Phoenix here to help, right? There's nothing she can't do, right?
Welllll.....
Uh oh!
But if Phoenix and all her infinite power can't do it....who can?
STORM! MY HERO!!!
She also gets Corsair - a human - to help out, powerhouse that he is.
So that should be enough, right? I mean, between the infinite power of Phoenix, Storm and Corsair, M'kraan is easy pickings, isn't it?
Welllll...
Man, AGAIN? What more does she need? She's PHOENIX, dammit! PHOENIX!!
Wait...so that's it? Phoenix's repair of the M'Kraan Crystal, the nexus of, er, a neutron GALAXY, needed the entire team of X-men to help her out? And even after that, she was laid out unconscious?
Wow, I'm so impressed! 🙄
Now, GS's predictable response is that Wanda "needed" Pietro and Xavier to create HoM. That's actually incorrect. She needed Xavier to read the minds of her friends and give them what they want. She could have changed the universe to whatever she wanted, but she wanted a utopia. Xavier penetrating the minds and greatest desires of her friends let her know how to restructure the universe to make them happiest. If she wanted to make the universe a series of giant Wanda statues and Cocoa Puffs, believe me...she would have no use for Xavier or Pietro to do it. She didn't...she wanted to give them their greatest desires.
World of difference.
So - in conclusion, we have Phoenix who can't even contain a galaxy without help vs. Scarlet Witch, who destroyed universe after universe by accident and altered THIS universe totally and completely - past and present.
No contest, guys.
A normal black hole is a collapsed star. The M'kraan crystal is a collapsed galaxy. You getting the picture son? It was stated on panel to be power absolute. Unchecked this neutron galaxy would have absorbed all that is:
Eventually reality would be reset with the Big Bang which is a manifestation of Phoenix, hence it sometimes being called the child of the crystal.
As Phoenix attempted to fix the crystal as a being of energy she too began to fade from reality as the crystal began absorbing her:
She then locked on to the life forces of her friends so that she could anchor herself to reality and then she applied her power and it was enough to contain the power of the crystal. So her needing aid wasnt down to lack of power, she just required an anchor so she could apply her power.
As for your point about Wanda you still have yet to prove it was the universe she warped as opposed to just the planet. With no reference other than Romas where she clearly stated it was global you have nothing conclusive to go on but opinion, which you cant treat as fact in debate in light of conflicting on panel evidence.
Also to bring about something complicated like warping reality to coincide with her family and friends desires Wanda required aid otherwise she wouldnt have been able to control it as she stated. Who is to say on her won what level of manipulation she could bring about? Speculation. Cover the earth Vs Universe thing and we'll go from there.
Originally posted by leonidas
😆i for one cannot WAIT!!
well done, gs. an epic clash between 2 high level jla'ers!
anyway, leaving the ever-loving pf for a while . . . (btw, people may hate when pf is raised, but it DOES always incite some great discussion!)
gs does have a point regarding the apparent omniscience of the IG wearer. when thanos temporarily shut himself off from sesnory input of the gauntlet to battle the heroes, he stated that he would now no longer know what they were going to do before they did it. that would seem to imply he might be able to sort of 'head her off' before she could use her power on him.
it also seems to stand to reason that with total control ofn reality, the IG wearer should be able to do the same things wanda is capable of doing, though no real on-panel evidence supports this notion.
The IG makes you Eternity level. Thanos wrested control from Eternity not because of the IG, but because he WILLED it so. He out Eternitied Eternity.
SW destroyed many Eternities with her chaos wave.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A normal black hole is a collapsed star. The M'kraan crystal is a collapsed galaxy. You getting the picture son? It was stated on panel to be power absolute. Unchecked this neutron galaxy would have absorbed all that is:Eventually reality would be reset with the Big Bang which is a manifestation of Phoenix, hence it sometimes being called the child of the crystal.
As Phoenix attempted to fix the crystal as a being of energy she too began to fade from reality as the crystal began absorbing her:
She then locked on to the life forces of her friends so that she could anchor herself to reality and then she applied her power and it was enough to contain the power of the crystal. So her needing aid wasnt down to lack of power, she just required an anchor so she could apply her power.
As for your point about Wanda you still have yet to prove it was the universe she warped as opposed to just the planet. With no reference other than Romas where she clearly stated it was global you have nothing conclusive to go on but opinion, which you cant treat as fact in debate in light of conflicting on panel evidence.
Also to bring about something complicated like warping reality to coincide with her family and friends desires Wanda required aid otherwise she wouldnt have been able to control it as she stated. Who is to say on her won what level of manipulation she could bring about? Speculation. Cover the earth Vs Universe thing and we'll go from there.
Erm,
Power flares from Phoenix to the lattuce, and where her beams touch, the silvery energy strands glow a fraction brighter. She does her best...but it's nowhere good enough
And all this struggle was even BEFORE the lattuce completely collapsed.
All powerful? I think not.
Additionally, it's clear that it's just the universe at stake. Nothing multiversal about it.
All that struggling just to contain a neutron galaxy?
You telling me the IG couldn't have contained it? HOTU couldn't have contained it? LT? Hell, Wanda's reality manipulation is so complete, SHE could have just willed the lattuce together, or manipulated time so that it never happened....
Originally posted by demigawd
Erm,And all this struggle was even BEFORE the lattuce completely collapsed.
All powerful? I think not.
Additionally, it's clear that it's just the universe at stake. Nothing multiversal about it.
All that struggling just to contain a neutron galaxy?
You telling me the IG couldn't have contained it? HOTU couldn't have contained it? LT? Hell, Wanda's reality manipulation is so complete, SHE could have just willed the lattuce together, or manipulated time so that it never happened....
I don't know how can you compare SW to HOTU, I mean already because against SW waren't higer comsic level (or tha she affected them, she wasn't) and against HOTU were, that already tells the answer.
