TPM Qui-Gon Jiin vs. ROTJ Luke

For the last part, yeah. But not the whole fight.

And the last part was the part where he knocked Vader down, thats the most important part of the entire fight. Its the part every argument is about.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Vader told him his skills were complete. He was just lying then, wasn't he. You think Luke was tryng his hardest too? He didn't want to kill him. Just because he had 'a ninja scream', doesn't mean he sucks.

Luke was trying his hardest. His motivs in the fight was not to fall to the dark side at first, but when Vader mocked him too much and talked about his friends and his sister, he totally lost control. When he has cut Vader's hand off and the Emperor applauds him, then he realises what he's done. He let's his emotions control him

..., so? We all know that. That proved nothing.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
..., so? We all know that. That proved nothing.

You were just arguing that there was no proof that Luke was going all out, but this is clearly proof.

- I won't fall to the dark side.
- Your sister will then.
- DIE YOU ****ER, but I won't try to hard to take you down.

Yes, because he said, "DIE YOU ****ER!'.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Yes, because he said, "DIE YOU ****ER!'.

Don't take it so literally. Luke was furious, how could he possibly control himself, his goal during the fight was not to go to the dark side, then suddenly he gave into his emotions and tried to kill Vader. I'm sure he did that just to have fun and toy with Vader.
Luke was hiding from Vader because he didn't want to fight him, then I guess he revealed himself just to go out and toy with him a little.

That wasn't Luke's goal. His goal was to bring his father back to the light.

so he gave into tha darkside, and pushed his powers past his present limits AND he did a ninja scream

luke = going all out/trying his hardest

and wtf even if he wasnt trying his hardest, qui gon would still beat him

Nope. Qui-Gon couln't even contend with the likes of Vader.

Man seriously. Ok, Both Vader AND Luke were not going all out during that fight at the start. There is basically ZERO time between Eps. V and Eps. VI. In ESB Vader tooled Luke like an idiot after Luke hit him in the shoulder. THAT was Vader going 'all out', the entire fight before that, he AGAIN was trying to turn Luke to the darkside. He does the same in ROTJ. At neither time, except the hand chop off part, was Vader trying. And what happened when he did? He Pwned Luke. Not to mention, Vader BEAT Luke before the 'hand chop off' part, He could have killed Luke twice in ESB, but didn't. Since there was basically no time (not enough to master sword fighting, which takes a lifetime) it makes no sense at all that Luke "miraculously" became an amazing swordsman. In ROTJ, Vader could have "re-tooled" Luke again like he did in ESB, but he didn't want to. He was trying to turn his son, but at the same time he didn't want to actually hurt Luke. Then, he pushed Luke to the edge and pissed Luke off. Luke gave it his all and caught Vader off guard, that, coupled with the fact that Vader STILL didn't want to hurt his son precipitated him losing the fight.

Had he not done any of the talking/ trying to turn Luke and just went all out from the start Luke woulda been killed in prolly 10-15 seconds at best.

You go through six months of training, then tell that is no time.

Sorry...no..

If it wasn't against forum policy, I'd call you a moron. 6 months isn't enough to master shit, especially the force, and especially a lightsaber. If it was then Padawans would be Jedi at the age of 7 and Jedi masters by 12.

Common, just think about it a little, cause your sounding pretty dumb.

and don't give me the "zOMG!!!1 luke is teh 00ber 1337 f0rce sk1ll!!" crap. Because Anakin had far more potential then Luke and it took Anakin 13 years to master a lightsaber. And he STILL hadn't masted the force to an extreme upper level, like Yoda or Sidious. It takes a long time to learn about the force, 6 months isn't enough time to do anything...

Vader- "Your skills are complete."

a few points lacking in this debate:

-In the novelization the emperor is afraid when he learns that luke trained under yoda (more understandable after seeing ROTS)

-Yoda says that Luke won't be a jedi until after he faces Vader (I think this places him at about Obi Wan's leve at the beginning of TPM) I see this the same as when Qui Gon says Kenobi's ready for the trials.

Now, That means we have a jedi ready to undergo "the trials" going up against an ataru master.

Luke didn't suck, but in this fight he would be outclassed.

-edit-
by the way, both Lukes wide swings and Qui Gons twirly whatevers are dramatic film swordwork. agains real fencing and kendo either would open you wide up.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Vader- "Your skills are complete."

That doesn't mean "lightsaber skills"

As I said, NO ONE can master a lightsaber form (which Luke didnt btw) in 6 months. Its impossible.

Plus "skills" doesn't mean "your 1337 powerful"...define "skills".

By the age of 12-13 a padawans basic "skills" are "complete" (with the exception of lightsaber skills). What skills? Basic skills? what does "skills" mean exactly?

Vader saying that doesn't mean anything at all.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
That doesn't mean "lightsaber skills"

As I said, NO ONE can master a lightsaber form (which Luke didnt btw) in 6 months. Its impossible.

Plus "skills" doesn't mean "your 1337 powerful"...define "skills".

By the age of 12-13 a padawans basic "skills" are "complete" (with the exception of lightsaber skills). What skills? Basic skills? what does "skills" mean exactly?

Vader saying that doesn't mean anything at all.

Wow, Vader going through all the training, and saying that means nothing? That is a noob statement.

First off, that didn't even make sense. Second, you didn't answer my question. Him saying "your skills are complete" does not mean the same as "you have as much skill as I have"

And here you are calling Me a noob? LOL...

I've been here just a BIT longer then you have I'd say...noob. Or I should say "zOMG!!11 Luke is teh most 1337!!!11 00ber and he pWn J00 5queeb - Fanboy"

Luke loses to Qui-gon. If you think otherwise, then maybe you should be reconsidering who's the "noob". 6 months of semi-Jedi training with no saber combat training vs. 50 years of force training as well as a master of Ataru...hummm? Who wins? lol

🙄

Luke, he is better.