Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It's not the style of the seats that matter. It's the fact that even when the Republic was far larger the Senate Chamber COULD NOT hold a million people.
Was it the same Senate Chamber? Was it the same Republic?
Even Mace seems to imply that the Republic was only a millenia old in ROTS.
What ratio was the representation?
The fact of the matter is that room is clearly large enough in scale to hold hundreds of thousands of individuals. The other factors are completely speculatory.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Was it the same Senate Chamber? Was it the same Republic?Even Mace seems to imply that the Republic was only a millenia old in ROTS.
What ratio was the representation?
The fact of the matter is that room is clearly large enough in scale to hold hundreds of thousands of individuals. The other factors are completely speculatory.
How the hell can it house hundreds of thousands of people, the thing is not much larger then even a big earth stadium. Which can house between 50.000 and 80.000 people.. Seriously this stadium would never house a million, not even a few hundred thousand.
And it is indeed very likely that the Republic reformed, just like the Jedi Order reformed.
After the war between the Jedi and the Sith had ended a lot changed for both the republic and the Jedi, a reformation was probably in order. However what happened in it is an assumption.
Originally posted by Wesker
I love the reasoning here."No way it could hold a million people."
Us: "Here's scans. A million people could fit in it. Hell, something a fraction of the size held hundreds of thousands. What more do you want? A headcount, panel by panel?"
How can it hold a million people? Its not that much bigger then an earth stadium, which holds anywhere between 50.000 and 80.000 people.. Its not 10 to 20x as big as that... And you have scans? Have you seen the one's I posted?
The scans don't support you.
Just look at this picture for instance
You see people far more clearly on the other side of the stadium in the scan. And this isn't taken from the top of the building, this is taken half way. It can not possibly house a million people. So far all you have shown is a scan, which I have shown as well and said that it could house a million people. Even though the Stadium is clearly not 10x as big... And 10x wouldn't even cut it to be honest.
Also just to argue the controlling argument IKC made
He wasn't even controlling the Chancelor he didn't even freeze him before he went up to the podium.
IKC you still haven't proven that Exar controlled the Senators or that there were a million people ther.BTW just because I know you will never accept it
The senate is Frozen... Not controlled, Frozen.
And the senate chambers simply can not house a million beings simple as that.
The scans clearly show that there can not be a million people there.
And i'm not glossing over anything, I am saying that he didn't control a million people, he froze thousands tens of thousands likely, not a million.
I agree that Kun didn't control a million people. Janus, look at the ROTS scene. There is no way there is room for a million people in the Senate Chamber and it makes no sense that the Senate Chamber would have gotten smaller as the Republic got bigger. Kun did freeze tens of thousands, perhaps a few hundred thousand people, but not a million.
Exar Kun freezing a million people, just looking at the scans make it impossible that there are a million people there, meaning he froze less. This would make it less impressive still more impressive then anybody else that tried it for as far as I know, but its far less then a Million.
Exar Kun controlling the senate when he in fact froze them, now this again is less impressive. Still impressive but less so.
How the hell can it house hundreds of thousands of people, the thing is not much larger then even a big earth stadium. Which can house between 50.000 and 80.000 people.. Seriously this stadium would never house a million, not even a few hundred thousand.
What do you mean us? The scans CLEARLY SHOW that there is no way 1 million people could fit in it. Nice reasoning though..
How can it hold a million people? Its not that much bigger then an earth stadium, which holds anywhere between 50.000 and 80.000 people.. Its not 10 to 20x as big as that... And you have scans? Have you seen the one's I posted?
The scans don't support you.
Just look at this picture for instance
You see people far more clearly on the other side of the stadium in the scan. And this isn't taken from the top of the building, this is taken half way. It can not possibly house a million people. So far all you have shown is a scan, which I have shown as well and said that it could house a million people. Even though the Stadium is clearly not 10x as big... And 10x wouldn't even cut it to be honest.
Also just to argue the controlling argument IKC made
He wasn't even controlling the Chancelor he didn't even freeze him before he went up to the podium.
Learn to read, you've all failed to address my points:
Originally posted by IKC
1) Except then you use your brain and realize that Kun was actively controlling the rest of the Senate already:Because the odds are so prohibitively high that each and every spectator in that building was looking at what Kun wanted them to look at already, it is logically sound to assume that what Kun did was not a simple freeze spell, but one of control. Why? Because he forces them to watch what he wants them to watch. Anyone who wasn't already looking at what he wanted them to see would have been forced to. Quod erat demonstrandum.
Therefore, because Kun has demonstrated the ability to control the rest of the Senate, comprised of a great multitude of multiracial beings, it is also logically sound to assume that he did not need to walk up to the Chancellor to control him, either. He did, though, because it is obvious that Kun is big on theatrics, as demonstrated by his entrance to the Senate itself:
Originally posted by IKC
8) Again, did it hurt to pull that subjective observation number out of your ass?To quote myself: Uh, my scans work. Take a look at the one I posted previously (), and look at the Chancellor's podium again. In that scan, we get a ground-level view of it. It's enormous. It might be as big around as the Washington Monument. The thing is immense. The entire building is immense.
Here's a bird's-eye view of it:
That building is easily many times the size of anything we have built on Earth. That combined with the fact that Star Wars technology far surpasses our own, and you have a building that can hold at least a million beings.
Note how the building dwarfs every other building visible in the Coruscant skyline. Only the nearby port is taller, but nowhere near as large in surface area or volume.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Again the narrator literary says FROZEN then forced to watch... You are forced to watch when you are frozen this is exactly how the narrator puts it. They were frozen, you are taking things a bit to literal when you say they constantly watched him. They didn't they were frozen in their tracks simple as that couldn't move. Thats what the comic says, you thinking differently based on one word means jack shit. As it literally says FROZEN.
Now about the controlling the Chancellor, its nice how you just ignore the scan where we see the Chancellor move to attack Exar before Exar is up there. Exar didn't control him he didn't even freeze him. Unless of course you want to argue scans..
and again that bird eye views proves Jack shit, show me a bird eye's view from about equal height of an earth stadium and show me that its a lot smaller. You can't so it means jack shit. On the other hand I have shown you pictures from a stadium from earth where we can clearly see or actually can clearly not see the people on the other side. Something that we can do in the scans.. and how the hell would technology allow more people to fit into a stadium thats smaller? What is it going to do make the people smaller?
Originally posted by Fishy
Again the narrator literary says FROZEN then forced to watch... You are forced to watch when you are frozen this is exactly how the narrator puts it. They were frozen, you are taking things a bit to literal when you say they constantly watched him. They didn't they were frozen in their tracks simple as that couldn't move. Thats what the comic says, you thinking differently based on one word means jack shit. As it literally says FROZEN.Now about the controlling the Chancellor, its nice how you just ignore the scan where we see the Chancellor move to attack Exar before Exar is up there. Exar didn't control him he didn't even freeze him. Unless of course you want to argue scans..
and again that bird eye views proves Jack shit, show me a bird eye's view from about equal height of an earth stadium and show me that its a lot smaller. You can't so it means jack shit. On the other hand I have shown you pictures from a stadium from earth where we can clearly see or actually can clearly not see the people on the other side. Something that we can do in the scans.. and how the hell would technology allow more people to fit into a stadium thats smaller? What is it going to do make the people smaller?
1) Except then you use your brain and realize that Kun was actively controlling the rest of the Senate already:Because the odds are so prohibitively high that each and every spectator in that building was looking at what Kun wanted them to look at already, it is logically sound to assume that what Kun did was not a simple freeze spell, but one of control. Why? Because he forces them to watch what he wants them to watch. Anyone who wasn't already looking at what he wanted them to see would have been forced to. Quod erat demonstrandum.
Therefore, because Kun has demonstrated the ability to control the rest of the Senate, comprised of a great multitude of multiracial beings, it is also logically sound to assume that he did not need to walk up to the Chancellor to control him, either. He did, though, because it is obvious that Kun is big on theatrics, as demonstrated by his entrance to the Senate itself:
8) Again, did it hurt to pull that subjective observation number out of your ass?
To quote myself: Uh, my scans work. Take a look at the one I posted previously (), and look at the Chancellor's podium again. In that scan, we get a ground-level view of it. It's enormous. It might be as big around as the Washington Monument. The thing is immense. The entire building is immense.
Here's a bird's-eye view of it:
That building is easily many times the size of anything we have built on Earth. That combined with the fact that Star Wars technology far surpasses our own, and you have a building that can hold at least a million beings.
Note how the building dwarfs every other building visible in the Coruscant skyline. Only the nearby port is taller, but nowhere near as large in surface area or volume.
Originally posted by Fishy
I already answered that post IKC, but if thats how you want to argue thats just fine, either adress my points or stop posting about it.
I will when you start to address mine. Parroting your same bullshit over and over when I've already hammered it into the ground is nonsense.
Originally posted by IKC
[Because the odds are so prohibitively high that each and every spectator in that building was looking at what Kun wanted them to look at already, it is logically sound to assume that what Kun did was not a simple freeze spell, but one of control. Why? Because he forces them to watch what he wants them to watch. Anyone who wasn't already looking at what he wanted them to see would have been forced to. Quod erat demonstrandum.Therefore, because Kun has demonstrated the ability to control the rest of the Senate, comprised of a great multitude of multiracial beings, it is also logically sound to assume that he did not need to walk up to the Chancellor to control him, either.
What a great reading comprehension. "The entire chamber is frozen. Forced to watch and not to react..." Great. So he didn't perform a freezing spell (as the omnicient narrator tells us himself) but he used "mind control" on a millions of senators, especially when we know that "mind control" only affects weak-minded persons and some species are completely resistant against it (Hutts for example).
Then we see that he didn't control the chancellor before and we see that he uses his amulet while placing it on the chancellor.
What is the result of this observations ?
a) Kun froze the Senators and didn't "control" them.
b) It seems as Kun needed to use his amulet from a close range in order to control the Chancelor when he didn't control anybody else in the entire building.
2) Lol. I love how you tell me to "go check every source" but fail to provide one, and the ones I have show it as instantaneous. Example:Aleema does things like that throughout DLotS and TSW. In fact, the only Sith ritual that we know of is the one at the end of TSW when Kun released his spirit. That's it.
So put up or shut up.
I could swear I was talking about manipulation of multiple targets using the force that needed rituals or massive amounts of concentration. This would include such things as Battle Meditation (Arca in the TOTJ comics, Bastilla in KotoR), creating illusions (Sadow and Aleema in the TOTJ comics) or mind control (Joruus in the Thrawn trilogy). But Kun can simply do this without concentration and without a longer time needed to do so ? I guess this is why it says his spell works "silently"...
Except not. You haven't proven that "nobody" could control such an amount of beings. Kun is shown to have done it. Ergo, this combined with the fact that almost all Sith magic is shown to be instantaneous with the exception of one incident, the onus is on you to prove that Kun used a ritual.
No. Kun is shown to have frozen that amount of beings and not controlling them as you like to put it because of your missinterpretation of the narrator. And there is not a single incident in which the force was used on massive amounts of people without a "ritualized" form of use or massive amounts of concentration needed. Theirfore it's save to assume that Kun needed one of it. And really...why does the narrator even mentions a "spell" when Kun didn't anything but snapping his fingers ?
Uh, except Kun was shown to perform this feat, and knowing what we know about Sith magic, he did it instantly. Seeing what we saw with Kun's behavior while he held the spell in effect, it was nearly effortless. So the onus is on you to prove otherwise.
Since when are spells (!) kept up, eh ? They need time to perform (which was what I suggested) and then they work.
3) Oh, so because he managed to utter a few words as he was dying from Kun's attack, that means Kun didn't instakill him? By that logic, Traya didn't instakill anyone either because the Jedi grunted and screamed.Odan was alive for precisely one panel after Kun hit him, and he was dying in said panel. Kun instakilled him.
Instakill means instakill. Kreia hit the masters and they dropped to the ground dead. Period. Kun did hit old Odan and Odan was still alive. So clearly no instakill. And still you can only assume that the same attack would have the same effect on people that are more "vital" then Odan since Kun obviously failed to "instakill" anybody else. Why not try it on Ulic for example whom he wanted dead in the first place ?
Uh, what? You just effectively stated my absence of proof was proof of absence. Logical fallacy, anyone?Kun's never shown to take a shit. Does this mean he can't?
You still don't get it. You can assume everything and then go and say "absence of proof is no proof of absence" and nobody can prove you wrong. Yoda can destroy planets with a handmovement. Proof that statement wrong.
Uh, what century was this that Sidious was spending gathering the crumbs of what was left of the Ancient Sith?Yes, he spoke to the "ancient Sith" in DE, which was later retconned by the very existence of TOTJ which throws the entire DE backstory timeline off by about three thousand years as well as completely destroys the hyperbolic descriptions of DE Luke and DE Sidious' power.
You do realize that Sidious in times of DE was 94 years old and we know that he was studying the ways of the Sith from his childhood on meaning he had almost a century of experience ?
And where was "talking to the ancient Sith" retconned by the TOTJ comics. The ancient Sith still exist in forms of spirits on Korriban - didn't they ? I don't see the retcon here.
4) And no, we're not talking about "simple force defense" when we're talking about blasts from the hands that seem to be as powerful as capital ship cannons.And we can assume that the Ancient Sith either had a defense for it because Ragnos could merely have been blown away by Sadow or someone else if there were no defense. Another theory is that the ancient Sith did not dare to use the amulets in this manner because they knew that the other Sith may be able to get their own shot off, which would result in mutually assured destruction.
We have seen that people were able to absorb the blasts from ship canons using force defence but they can't do the same thing with something of equal power ? Is there any logic behind that statement that I did miss ? And the theory...well...you really think that ancient Sith won't dare to use something like that because somebody else might use the same thing on them ? Ancient Sith ?
Er, see point #4, specifically the scans. How would closing to melee range really help them when 1) the blasts come from his hands and thereby would be harder to avoid and 2) Kun's a master of lightsaber combat, arguably one of if not the best depicted on panel or on screen?
How did you develop the idea that Kun can blast people while fighting them with his lightsaber ? And as Kun wasn't trained from infancy on (although he is a lightsaber prodigy which I won't deny) he still has less training with that weapon than DE Sidious or NJO Luke. DE Sidious would be better than his ROTS pendant since he has a younger body and - as it seems - greater control over the force. And DE Luke defeated him in a lightsaber fight which was Luke before having more than a decade lightsaber training in his academy - which enabled him to fight an entire army of Yuuzhan Vong in melee combat.
We see Odan glow blue on the very same f'ing page. Aleema's attacks shoot green. Are these two using Sith amulets, Nai?
Are they both wearing Sith amulets and pointing the glowing amulets on their oponents ? Well ?
Uh, Nai, he didn't say "I've been killed because I'm old," or "I'm dying because I'm old." He was quite obviously well enough to attempt an attack on Kun that failed because of Kun's overwhelming power. Odan didn't die because he was old, he died because Kun was too powerful for him.
Let's see. A few pages before that Odan tells Nomi that he used the very same attack against the Ancient Sith and he did that sucessfully. And then he doesn't say that Kun is too powerful for him, or that his attack failed because of that - no - he says "I'm old" which seems to be his own explanation for his failure.
I personally think that his attack failed because Kun was powerful enough to block it - no discussion their - but could Kun have killed him that easily if he wasn't that old ? Debateable...
6) Actually, not. They only had one Sith holocron by the time of the PT and it's unclear what, exactly, Sith holocrons contain.
The one that Kun obtained actually held the spirits of Ancient Sith themselves, ergo it's fallacious to argue that Sidious learned jack shit from a Sith holocron until we see concrete, canon evidence. That and it's evident from the PT that Jedi knowledge was stored in the Library. So what scrolls would Sidious have found, then? I'd argue that Kun's plundering of Ossus netted him far more valuable knowledge in both quality and quantity than Sidious' plundering of Coruscant's temple.
Actually you're wrong. We know that the Brotherhood of Darkness was started by a Rogue Jedi who stole a Sith holocron from the Jedi temple. And that knowledge stored in the single holocron was enough to keep the Galaxy at war for 1000 years and - as it seems - included such nice things like the "thought bomb" and "force storms".
We know that Dooku possesed another Sith holocron.
And if the SW.com Databank is enough for you (taken from the EU Site of the Jedi Archieves): "So complete were the Archives that even forbidden lore was stored within its chambers. The Archives contains the only known Sith Holocrons, information repositories of dark knowledge whose existence was revealed to only a few select Jedi Masters."
Notice "holocrons" which is clearly plural. And I don't see why those Sith holocrons should be different from the one Kun had.
No, the storm is never described as sith magic. It's described as a weapon of the Sith. Sith magic didn't exist canonically at the time that DE was written. It was made to exist, along with the Ancient Sith, with the writing of TOTJ.
So force techniques invented and used by Sith a no Sith magic any longer. And "Sith Magic" existed as term before the first movie was filmed. Maybe you should read some of Lucas early ideas...
As if Kun is suddenly a shitty shot, untrained in simple Jedi precognition and using the Force to enhance his own speed? Right. Nevermind that said blasts were about as big around as the Sith Wyrm they were used on.
I love how you dodge the point. So...if Kun enchances his own speed that will enchance the speed of the blasts coming from his amulet ? No ? His Jedi precognition will help him to hit people who move faster than blaster shots ? No ? And the blasts are as big around as the Sith Wyrm ? That's why Kun was able to blasts holes in the said wyrm instead of cutting it into pieces every time he hit it ?
"weapon we've never seen killing a force user instantly."Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Kun's never shown to kill Jar Jar, does this mean he can't? We never see the Death Star kill a force user with the main superlaser, does that mean it can't?
Same shitty logic used the other way around. We've never seen a force user blocking the Death Star laser - does that mean that a force user can't do it ? We've never seen Jar Jar killing Exar Kun. Does that mean that he can't do it ? See how stupid that "absence of proof is not proof of absence" line gets in certain situations ? Unless you present proof that Exar can kill force users with blasts from his amulet it's save to suggest that he can not do it. Period.
Originally posted by IKC
I will when you start to address mine. Parroting your same bullshit over and over when I've already hammered it into the ground is nonsense.
Hammered it into the ground?
We see the Chancellor move, we see that the narrator says FROZEN. He even explains frozen in the rest of that point, and yet you say controlled.
A million people in the senate when thats freaking impossible, you haven't proven jack shit IKC. You just keep repeating yourself hoping it will become true, adress my points.
