Originally posted by IKC
I will when you start to address mine. Parroting your same bullshit over and over when I've already hammered it into the ground is nonsense.
I like how you insult me for refusing to answer your post until you answer mine at EoD, but you start crying when Fishy won't address yours. Very childlike.
What a great reading comprehension. "The entire chamber is frozen. Forced to watch and not to react..." Great. So he didn't perform a freezing spell (as the omnicient narrator tells us himself) but he used "mind control" on a millions of senators, especially when we know that "mind control" only affects weak-minded persons and some species are completely resistant against it (Hutts for example).
I like how you even quoted the relevant section yet your poor reading comprehension didn't pick up on it.
Forced to watch and not react means that all the audience was forced to look at what Kun wanted them to look at, no?
Alright. So do you mean to tell me that every last being in the entire chamber was already looking at what Kun wanted them to look at before he burst into the room? Sorry. The odds for that are prohibitively high. Ergo, Kun forced those that were looking in other directions to look at what he wanted them to see via control.
Then we see that he didn't control the chancellor before and we see that he uses his amulet while placing it on the chancellor.
Or we see either:
1) He controlled the Chancellor until he made his way up the podium
2) He didn't bother to control the Chancellor, much like the Jedi.
I could swear I was talking about manipulation of multiple targets using the force that needed rituals or massive amounts of concentration. This would include such things as Battle Meditation (Arca in the TOTJ comics, Bastilla in KotoR), creating illusions (Sadow and Aleema in the TOTJ comics) or mind control (Joruus in the Thrawn trilogy). But Kun can simply do this without concentration and without a longer time needed to do so ? I guess this is why it says his spell works "silently"...
Arca/Nomi's battle meditation did not preclude them from walking around and, y'know, doing battle. Indeed, Odan-Urr could fly his ship while performing battle meditation in GAotS. Point disproven.
I haven't read Sadow's comics but Aleema is well able to walk around and interact with her environment as she maintains her illusions - as we see in the beginning of DLotS during the Krath coup. Point disproven.
As for Joruus' mind control, we can see that it apparently either works differently than Kun's or that Joruus doesn't have the strength of will to do it at Kun's level, which would make sense given that he's a raving lunatic.
So, as we see in the comic, Kun's able to walk about, give a little spiel, and do battle, all while maintaining his spell. And what does its silence indicate, Nai? Sounds like irrelevant misdirection to me.
No. Kun is shown to have frozen that amount of beings and not controlling them as you like to put it because of your missinterpretation of the narrator. And there is not a single incident in which the force was used on massive amounts of people without a "ritualized" form of use or massive amounts of concentration needed. Theirfore it's save to assume that Kun needed one of it. And really...why does the narrator even mentions a "spell" when Kun didn't anything but snapping his fingers ?
See the first point.
Except this is an incidence where the Force was used on massive amounts of people without ritualized use (which doesn't appear anywhere other than Kun's final act while living) or massive amounts of concentration. Argue the point, this is an irrelevant misdirection and logical fallacy. There's no other incidence of a Force user shooting blasts from Sith amulets either; does that mean Kun didn't do it?
I love how the word "spell" makes you think "zOMG RITUAL" despite lack of evidence for your point and a mountain of evidence for mine:
So, note the word "sudden." Aleema certainly didn't have time to perform an elaborate ritual (that you're making up). Sith Magic is shown to be instantaneous here.
Since when are spells (!) kept up, eh ? They need time to perform (which was what I suggested) and then they work.
This isn't Star Wars According to Nai. You need to provide proof. I just disproved your "suggestion" with the above scan. QED.
Instakill means instakill. Kreia hit the masters and they dropped to the ground dead. Period. Kun did hit old Odan and Odan was still alive. So clearly no instakill. And still you can only assume that the same attack would have the same effect on people that are more "vital" then Odan since Kun obviously failed to "instakill" anybody else. Why not try it on Ulic for example whom he wanted dead in the first place ?
It's more accurate to say that Kun hit Odan and Odan then was dying. You act as if Odan could have tap-danced rather than fall on his face, utter a few words, and die. Such is ridiculous. Kun's attack throttled and instakilled Odan - he took all of one panel to die.
Kun also "obviously failed" to take a shit on-panel. This doesn't mean he cannot. Our evidence that Kun can instakill - Odan-Urr - leads us to believe that it can be replicated within reason.
Oh, and he didn't try it on Ulic since... Ulic was already his apprentice. I love your concept of the chronology of this series. Have you even read it?
You still don't get it. You can assume everything and then go and say "absence of proof is no proof of absence" and nobody can prove you wrong. Yoda can destroy planets with a handmovement. Proof that statement wrong.
And you have no idea what the concept is about. We have evidence for a positive assumption. Ergo, it is proper to assume the positive unless there's evidence to the contrary, because absence of proof is not proof of absence.
Example: Our evidence is this - humans have bowel movements.
Well, it is certainly apparent that Exar Kun is a human, no? He boasts about the prowess of human Jedi to Sylvar, for example.
Now, there is no proof that Exar Kun has ever had a bowel movement. He is not shown in any material to have taken a shit. However, because he is a human, it is proper to assume that he must have done so rather than, if we say that absence of proof is proof of absence, say that he's never taken a shit and can't take a shit.
QED.
You do realize that Sidious in times of DE was 94 years old and we know that he was studying the ways of the Sith from his childhood on meaning he had almost a century of experience ?
Except the vast majority of that time was spent as a politician and military dictator. There is nothing to assume that he spent even most of his time training himself. That, and he lost a handful of years wandering about as a spirit.
And how do we know that he studied from his childhood on? Got any canonical proof?
And where was "talking to the ancient Sith" retconned by the TOTJ comics. The ancient Sith still exist in forms of spirits on Korriban - didn't they ? I don't see the retcon here.
The subject matter was retconned by TOTJ, by the existence of more powerful sith than Sidious. That and which Sith he talked to is a big mystery.
We have seen that people were able to absorb the blasts from ship canons using force defence but they can't do the same thing with something of equal power ? Is there any logic behind that statement that I did miss ? And the theory...well...you really think that ancient Sith won't dare to use something like that because somebody else might use the same thing on them ? Ancient Sith ?
Actually, we've only seen that people were able to turn away (not absorb, which would take exponentially more energy) turbolaser blasts. So, there's little reason to assume that they can absorb the amulet blasts especially since the attacks are not the same in nature.
And yes, I do think it's a viable theory. The Ancient Sith were greedy and power-hungry, but they weren't stupid. I doubt very much that they wanted to die.
How did you develop the idea that Kun can blast people while fighting them with his lightsaber ? And as Kun wasn't trained from infancy on (although he is a lightsaber prodigy which I won't deny) he still has less training with that weapon than DE Sidious or NJO Luke. DE Sidious would be better than his ROTS pendant since he has a younger body and - as it seems - greater control over the force. And DE Luke defeated him in a lightsaber fight which was Luke before having more than a decade lightsaber training in his academy - which enabled him to fight an entire army of Yuuzhan Vong in melee combat.
How did I develop it? Mostly because Kun mostly uses one hand while fighting with his lightsaber, leaving his other hand open to do whatever he likes with it.
Uh, how the hell does Kun have less training than either of them? And really, it's not the quantity of the training, it's the quality. Sidious' wasn't enough to let him beat Mace Windu, and a mere 29 or so years later he gets his ass handed to him by a farmboy who hasn't had anyone to practice with. So there goes Sidious.
As for Luke, he's the best of his era to be sure. What this means is a big question mark, because almost everyone else of said era was trained by him. That and he's had almost no formal training with people who knew the old forms and nobody but fellow learners to practice with.
(I note you're again making the exact opposite points you made against Lightsnake.)
Kun, on the other hand, actually has formal training with people who were, at the time, superior to him in lightsaber combat. His developed style allowed him to toy with and curbstomp a 600 year old master who has probably forgotten more about saber combat than Luke would ever know.
Are they both wearing Sith amulets and pointing the glowing amulets on their oponents ? Well ?
Don't dodge the point. Your assertion is that, because Kun was glowing, he must have been using a property of the amulet. I countered this with the fact that both Odan and Aleema are shown to glow on panel while using the Force as well.
So, unless you have some canonical proof that Kun used his amulet, you've got jack shit.
Let's see. A few pages before that Odan tells Nomi that he used the very same attack against the Ancient Sith and he did that sucessfully. And then he doesn't say that Kun is too powerful for him, or that his attack failed because of that - no - he says "I'm old" which seems to be his own explanation for his failure.
Except that age, as we see with Yoda, has no effect on the ability to use the Force. Your assumption that Odan died or failed to defeat Kun due to age is wildly flawed and almost baseless - perhaps you've forgotten but Ulic was blocked to the Force twice. The first time, he apparently was released from the wall of Light by Kun after he was rescued.
So, in this instance, either Kun knows a rock-solid defense against this technique or he's too powerful for Odan to block.
It's your unsupported assumption that he failed because he's old. He doesn't say "I've failed because I'm old," or "I'm dying because I'm old."
Hell, he doesn't even say, "I'm dying." He's not narrating his own life, Nai.
I personally think that his attack failed because Kun was powerful enough to block it - no discussion their - but could Kun have killed him that easily if he wasn't that old ? Debateable...
No, Odan was certainly spry and on-the-ball enough to recognize Kun as a threat and lash out with an attack. He was not dying until Kun hit him, until we see some real evidence to the contrary.
Actually you're wrong. We know that the Brotherhood of Darkness was started by a Rogue Jedi who stole a Sith holocron from the Jedi temple. And that knowledge stored in the single holocron was enough to keep the Galaxy at war for 1000 years and - as it seems - included such nice things like the "thought bomb" and "force storms".
Actually, you have no reading comprehension.
Want me to post my point again?
6) Actually, not. They (the Jedi) only had one Sith holocron by the time of the PT and it's unclear what, exactly, Sith holocrons contain.
PT != Ruusan. And I love how you assume that 100% of their knowledge came from the Holocron despite that there's no canonical evidence for it and it could have easily just pointed them towards places like Ziost.
We know that Dooku possesed another Sith holocron.
Dooku wasn't exactly a Jedi at the time, was he?
And if the SW.com Databank is enough for you (taken from the EU Site of the Jedi Archieves): "So complete were the Archives that even forbidden lore was stored within its chambers. The Archives contains the only known Sith Holocrons, information repositories of dark knowledge whose existence was revealed to only a few select Jedi Masters."
Right. And this pertains to the PT how? Despite the fact that the databank falls nowhere under canon, is inaccurate, and oftentimes hopelessly out of date, I don't think it contradicts the Episode II Visual Dictionary wherein it shows the only Sith holocron that the Jedi possess.
Notice "holocrons" which is clearly plural. And I don't see why those Sith holocrons should be different from the one Kun had.
Okay, so even if I accept the premise that they exist, (which I don't) if they're not different then all they contain are the remnants of insane Sith spirits. Wow, what a trove of knowledge!
So force techniques invented and used by Sith a no Sith magic any longer. And "Sith Magic" existed as term before the first movie was filmed. Maybe you should read some of Lucas early ideas...
Not every use of the Dark Side was Sith Magic. I'm certain the Ancient Sith used Force Push, is that Sith Magic, Nai?
You're again telling me to reference a vague source without giving me anything to go on.
Hm, no. I don't think so. You provide the proof, until then it's an irrelevant misdirection.
I love how you dodge the point. So...if Kun enchances his own speed that will enchance the speed of the blasts coming from his amulet ? No ? His Jedi precognition will help him to hit people who move faster than blaster shots ? No ? And the blasts are as big around as the Sith Wyrm ? That's why Kun was able to blasts holes in the said wyrm instead of cutting it into pieces every time he hit it ?
Well, first, it all depends on how fast the blasts come from his amulets. It's really more accurate to call them beams because they aren't shown to really "leave" his hand.
Jedi precognition certainly assists Force users in dueling each other, even though they move faster than blaster shots. So, yes.
As for being as big as the wyrm itself:
Note how the beam grows the further it gets away from his hand. It's already almost as big as it goes off-panel, there's no reason to assume it doesn't continue to get larger until it either peters out or is stopped somehow.
Same shitty logic used the other way around. We've never seen a force user blocking the Death Star laser - does that mean that a force user can't do it ? We've never seen Jar Jar killing Exar Kun. Does that mean that he can't do it ? See how stupid that "absence of proof is not proof of absence" line gets in certain situations ? Unless you present proof that Exar can kill force users with blasts from his amulet it's save to suggest that he can not do it. Period.
Death Star: We never see a Force user outright blocking anything even remotely as powerful as the Superlaser. Ergo, it's proper to assume they cannot until something suggests otherwise.
Really, see the above. Your lack of comprehension for this idea is astounding:
And you have no idea what the concept is about. We have evidence for a positive assumption. Ergo, it is proper to assume the positive unless there's evidence to the contrary, because absence of proof is not proof of absence.Example: Our evidence is this - humans have bowel movements.
Well, it is certainly apparent that Exar Kun is a human, no? He boasts about the prowess of human Jedi to Sylvar, for example.
Now, there is no proof that Exar Kun has ever had a bowel movement. He is not shown in any material to have taken a shit. However, because he is a human, it is proper to assume that he must have done so rather than, if we say that absence of proof is proof of absence, say that he's never taken a shit and can't take a shit.
QED.
I like how you even quoted the relevant section yet your poor reading comprehension didn't pick up on it.Forced to watch and not react means that all the audience was forced to look at what Kun wanted them to look at, no?
Alright. So do you mean to tell me that every last being in the entire chamber was already looking at what Kun wanted them to look at before he burst into the room? Sorry. The odds for that are prohibitively high. Ergo, Kun forced those that were looking in other directions to look at what he wanted them to see via control.
Who ever said they kept on watching him? They were forced to watch, watch what? It says Frozen IKC, after that it just explains what Frozen means. Thats what the forced to watch and not react part is about. Unless you can show prove that they kept on watching Kun his every step and turned their heads to him, then you have no case here. The Narrator does say frozen, if he would have controlled them he would have said that.
Or we see either:1) He controlled the Chancellor until he made his way up the podium
2) He didn't bother to control the Chancellor, much like the Jedi.
Or perhaps he simply didn't have the power to freeze the chancelor and the Jedi. And why would he let the Chancellor go and then fight him and then take control of his body? It makes no sense. So unless you can prove that he at one point froze the chancellor and let him go, or that he could have frozen the chancellor he didn't. Simple as that.
See the first point.Except this is an incidence where the Force was used on massive amounts of people without ritualized use (which doesn't appear anywhere other than Kun's final act while living) or massive amounts of concentration. Argue the point, this is an irrelevant misdirection and logical fallacy. There's no other incidence of a Force user shooting blasts from Sith amulets either; does that mean Kun didn't do it?
I love how the word "spell" makes you think "zOMG RITUAL" despite lack of evidence for your point and a mountain of evidence for mine:
So, note the word "sudden." Aleema certainly didn't have time to perform an elaborate ritual (that you're making up). Sith Magic is shown to be instantaneous here.
This is a very different kind of Sith Magic though, who is to say they all work in the same way?
It's more accurate to say that Kun hit Odan and Odan then was dying. You act as if Odan could have tap-danced rather than fall on his face, utter a few words, and die. Such is ridiculous. Kun's attack throttled and instakilled Odan - he took all of one panel to die.Kun also "obviously failed" to take a shit on-panel. This doesn't mean he cannot. Our evidence that Kun can instakill - Odan-Urr - leads us to believe that it can be replicated within reason.
Oh, and he didn't try it on Ulic since... Ulic was already his apprentice. I love your concept of the chronology of this series. Have you even read it?
He's obviously talking about the fight between Exar and Ulic, Exar had the power to do those things already but didn't. So why didn't he kill Ulic with an instakill attack when he should have been able to do it?
And Nai is right, it didn't instantly kill Odan Urr. It did kill him, but it does sound like Odan just gives up.
And you have no idea what the concept is about. We have evidence for a positive assumption. Ergo, it is proper to assume the positive unless there's evidence to the contrary, because absence of proof is not proof of absence.Example: Our evidence is this - humans have bowel movements.
Well, it is certainly apparent that Exar Kun is a human, no? He boasts about the prowess of human Jedi to Sylvar, for example.
Now, there is no proof that Exar Kun has ever had a bowel movement. He is not shown in any material to have taken a shit. However, because he is a human, it is proper to assume that he must have done so rather than, if we say that absence of proof is proof of absence, say that he's never taken a shit and can't take a shit.
If only you would use it like that. You don't. You say just because we don't see him do something doesn't mean he can't therefor he can unless you prove otherwise. It doesn't always work like that, with small things yes. Things like that yes, but not with the things you say.
The subject matter was retconned by TOTJ, by the existence of more powerful sith than Sidious. That and which Sith he talked to is a big mystery.
Does it really matter which Sith he talked too? We know the Sith talk to each other about shit like this, even if he didn't talk to Ragnos, Ragnos would still have made part of the decision.
We see a Sith saying that Exar Kun is ready, then later on Ragnos crowns him. BTW: Where does it say its Ragnos, in the comic the spirit makes it clear that his name doesn't matter. Which again seems to support the decision was made by all the Sith. Otherwise who made the decision would matter. So even if Sidious was invited by a moron which I doubt, that moron would still have talked with other dead sith lords.
Actually, we've only seen that people were able to turn away (not absorb, which would take exponentially more energy) turbolaser blasts. So, there's little reason to assume that they can absorb the amulet blasts especially since the attacks are not the same in nature.And yes, I do think it's a viable theory. The Ancient Sith were greedy and power-hungry, but they weren't stupid. I doubt very much that they wanted to die.
It did take time before Nadd died, and the Sith beast was attacked twice by the blast of the amulet. The Ancient Sith also knew a defence against the amulets, so there is a way to block and or stop the attack and its very possible that they just do it by force powers.
How did I develop it? Mostly because Kun mostly uses one hand while fighting with his lightsaber, leaving his other hand open to do whatever he likes with it.
He could barely control the attacks, I seriously doubt he could use the attacks and use his lightsaber at the same time.
IKC you keep on making the same mistakes over and over again:
a)
The Senate Chamber was frozen and thereby forced to watch and not to react. That means that they weren't able to do anything except watching and not that Kun made them turn their heads to focus on every movement he did. In fact that idea would even contradict the statement that they were frozen because frozen people don't move.
If I have a bad reading comprehension - yours is non-existant.
b)
Where did I say that a great amount of concentration means that people can't even talk any longer while concentrating ? Have we seen people concentrating (e.g. battle meditation) and fighting major enemies in the same time ? Obviously Arca Jeth wasn't able to focus on his direct surrounding enough while using battle meditation and got pwned by a protocol-droid with a laser. And you want to tell me that Kun can use a greater amount of force power - while still being able to fight (or no "tool"😉 his archenemy Vodo, blast people around and mind-control other people ?
And still you have failed to provide proof that Kun's spell works the same way as Aleema's small scale use of Sith magic. Did I miss Aleema's spell casting or is there just no spell ? A completely different situation. On the same level I can say that Luke did everything in the NJO and DN while focusing to keep 2 planets, a giant spaceship and Vader's fortress on Coruscant invisible. Does that make sense ?
c)
Kun's instakill attack on Odan was no instakill. Go buy yourself a dictionary and look for the meaning of "instant". It's "the same moment" and obviously Odan didn't die "the same moment" Kun hit him - in contrary to the Jedi Masters that were hit by Kreia or the YV slayer that was hit by Luke.
And since Exar failed to use the same attack on Vodo, Sylvar, Ulic, Nomi or anybody else standing in his way but he just managed to kill a 1000-year-old Jedi that had just used a great amount of his own power to attack Exar I fail to see what should enable Exar to reproduce that action against NJO Luke or DE Sidious who are - without any doubt - more powerful than Odan and in a better physical condition.
Also nice how you assume that Odan recognized Exar as the threat Exar really was when Exar himself even asks Odan if he knows who Exar is and Odan keeps calling him a "Dark Jedi" which is certainly not "Dark Lord of the Sith".
d)
For the training times. If you know jack shit about the sources of Luke's knowledge why don't you just keep your mouth shut ? He had no knowledge about the lightsaber forms. He had knowledge from Ossus, the complete knowledge from a Jedi training vessel and was taught by at least three PT Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda, Vima). But mysteriously he had no knowledge about the lightsaber styles that were used by the PT people ? That's why he's even labelled to be a form V user like his father ?
And the people he trained with. I guess Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't trained by him. Kyle - before even placing a foot in Luke's academy - defeated Boba Fett, an entire Imperial base, legions of Dark Siders and (now the funny part) was able to use the uber-powerful "strip people from the force attack" since he used it against Jerec as well as against himself past MOTS. And the nice amounts of knowledge Exar himself gave to Kyp Durron also don't count as well as the knowledge given to Mara Jade by Vader / Sidious apparently enough to beat Luke's own clone.
Also I wonder how you fail to see that Luke and Sidious have more training compared to Exar. Exar had just a few years under Vodo followed by studying the things Nadd and Sadow had to give to him. Sidious had an entire lifetime to study (although less knowledge than Kun) trained at least 2 people (Vader and Maul) for 2 decades each as well as several other people (Hethrir, his "hands"😉 while Luke trained dozens of people and spent 2 decades in his own Academy with the sources listed above.
e)
For the Sith holocrons held by the Jedi order. We know that the person starting the Brotherhood of Darkness stole a Sith holocron from the Jedi archieves. That's a fact and I love how you just ignore it. So I don't have to assume that their knowledge came from that single holocron because this is mentioned in the actual source.
Yet you have one Sith holocron stolen from the Jedi and still they have forbidden knowledge and multiple holocrons lying around in their temple but of course the total amounts of Sith holocrons that were ever stored in the Jedi temple equals "one". So you must be right with your assumption when we have proof that you are wrong, right ?
And Dooku was just mentioned to show you that Sidious had access to Sith holocrons too. Meaning you have what Sidious had + the stuff stored in the temple and that was accesable for Luke and Sidious.
f)
Not every use of the Dark Side was Sith Magic. I'm certain the Ancient Sith used Force Push, is that Sith Magic, Nai?
Abilities unique to the Dark Side are at least parts of the Sith Magic lore such as force lightning, force drain, life drain and force storm.
g)
For Kun's amulets: I was asking how Kun will accelerate his beams enough to hit people who move faster than blaster bolts. No answer ? And if people can "block" (or "turn away"😉 fire from space ships I fail to see why they should unable to do the same thing with Kun's amulet blast especially when Kun was nearly unable to control said blasts himself (see picture Fishy posted) - which would make it quite unlikely that he will use them in a while fighting with his lightsaber or use them precisely enough to blast people who are moving faster than blaster bolts.
Originally posted by Borbarad
d)
For the training times. If you know jack shit about the sources of Luke's knowledge why don't you just keep your mouth shut ? He had no knowledge about the lightsaber forms. He had knowledge from Ossus, the complete knowledge from a Jedi training vessel and was taught by at least three PT Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda, Vima). But mysteriously he had no knowledge about the lightsaber styles that were used by the PT people ? That's why he's even labelled to be a form V user like his father ?
Was Luke trained by Vima Sunrider?
Looks like Borborad put you in your place IKC. I love how you ignore the points you want to ignore that diminish Kun as a powerful character. BTW I would consider IKC's stuff impressive too just because he writes a novel everytime he posts. And yes it was Ragnos who told NADD that Kun is ready, we don't exactly see it but it is a very logical assumption. Still, Kun vs. NJO Luke and DE Sidious would die. He would take either one of them by himself but adding the other would be overkill.
Originally posted by zod360
Exactly and to add to Borbarad's point in a), if he had force controlled them to watch, they would have simply decided to watch, but as you can see from the scans that you provided IKC, they are all unable to move and you can actually see the terror in their eyes.
If he had controlled them (force persuade), they would have been hypnotized in a sense and there wouldn't be any signs of terror in their eyes.
One at a time, Fishy's first:
Who ever said they kept on watching him? They were forced to watch, watch what? It says Frozen IKC, after that it just explains what Frozen means. Thats what the forced to watch and not react part is about. Unless you can show prove that they kept on watching Kun his every step and turned their heads to him, then you have no case here. The Narrator does say frozen, if he would have controlled them he would have said that.
The narration isn't clear what they were forced to watch, only that all of them were forced to watch it. It's proper to assume that they were forced to watch whatever Kun wanted them to watch.
Now, given that they were forced to watch what Kun wanted them to watch, he must have controlled them. Why? Because the odds of every being in the Senate already looking at what Kun wants them to see, before the spell was cast, are prohibitively high. Ergo, any spectator that was, for example, looking at his shoes, picking his nose, or holding a side conversation was stopped and forced to watch what Kun made them watch. QED.
If you're going to argue that all of them were already looking at what Kun wanted them to see, you're hopeless.
Or perhaps he simply didn't have the power to freeze the chancelor and the Jedi. And why would he let the Chancellor go and then fight him and then take control of his body? It makes no sense. So unless you can prove that he at one point froze the chancellor and let him go, or that he could have frozen the chancellor he didn't. Simple as that.
Except the narration contradicts you. The entire chamber is forced to watch and not react. Ergo, the two possibilities I laid out previously stand.
Using the nitpicking that passes for your logic, I could ask you why Kun didn't simply barge in, grab Ulic, and run? That was, after all, his primary objective. He didn't really need to walk all the way up the podium and use the Chancellor as a puppet.
Kun's big on theatrics, as we see in the comics. That's why.
This is a very different kind of Sith Magic though, who is to say they all work in the same way?
It's a very different kind? Says who? This isn't Star Wars According to Fishy, either. Prove up.
Until then, because we use the simplest feasible answer; they work the same until shown otherwise.
He's obviously talking about the fight between Exar and Ulic, Exar had the power to do those things already but didn't. So why didn't he kill Ulic with an instakill attack when he should have been able to do it?
No shit? Except we don't know he had the power to do those things already because we can't really quantify his power or his knowledge at this point. His midway between his Jedi days and his time as the Dark Lord. We know very little of his capabilities.
You have no sense of the chronology of this series (big surprise). Exar kills Odan over six months after the duel with Ulic.
And Nai is right, it didn't instantly kill Odan Urr. It did kill him, but it does sound like Odan just gives up.
What a crock of shit! Show me where he "gives up." Jesus H. Christ, show me where the three Jedi that Traya instakilled "give up." My God, they groaned! They must not have been instantly killed!
Sorry, no. "I cannot stop it," doesn't mean "I give up." English is your friend.
If only you would use it like that. You don't. You say just because we don't see him do something doesn't mean he can't therefor he can unless you prove otherwise. It doesn't always work like that, with small things yes. Things like that yes, but not with the things you say.
Except my assumptions to the positive are based on the same logic and evidence, evidence you enjoy nitpicking and ignoring when it suits you.
Does it really matter which Sith he talked too? We know the Sith talk to each other about shit like this, even if he didn't talk to Ragnos, Ragnos would still have made part of the decision.
Actually, we don't know that the already-dead Sith frequently talk to each other. It seems that they sometimes don't, given Ajunta hadn't had contact with anyone for so long.
It doesn't really matter which Sith he talked to since the things said Sith said to him (at least, some of them) were retconned. However, there is no reason to assume that it was Ragnos or that Ragnos had anything to do with the exchange.
We see a Sith saying that Exar Kun is ready, then later on Ragnos crowns him. BTW: Where does it say its Ragnos, in the comic the spirit makes it clear that his name doesn't matter. Which again seems to support the decision was made by all the Sith. Otherwise who made the decision would matter. So even if Sidious was invited by a moron which I doubt, that moron would still have talked with other dead sith lords.
Again, see the above. There's no proof for group decision making with the dead Sith. Indeed, there's little to no evidence for it at all.
BTW: He says his name doesn't matter, yes. Then you read the rest of the sentence where he says, "My power is all that should concern you."
My. Not our. It is described as a message from their reigning Dark Lord.
The spirit was identified as Ragnos in later material, by the way. I'm sure most of the guides list it as him.
It did take time before Nadd died, and the Sith beast was attacked twice by the blast of the amulet. The Ancient Sith also knew a defence against the amulets, so there is a way to block and or stop the attack and its very possible that they just do it by force powers.
And Nadd is a spirit who wasn't attacked in the same manner. We've been over this already; direct contact with his spirit and the amulet is what destroyed him.
The beast was fired at from close to point-blank range (meaning the beam hadn't spread much yet) and was not hit in a vital area the first time. I assume that it's like a snake and can survive, for a little bit, with a gaping hole through its middle.
However, we cannot just go and claim that the Ancient Sith knew a defense against the amulet when there's no evidence for it. It's just as likely that they didn't use them on each other because they knew the other Sith could use their own amulets, thus giving them Mutually Assured Destruction.
And "it's very possible" that Star Wars takes place on a microscopic scale inside Lucas' rectum. Without evidence, don't claim it.
He could barely control the attacks, I seriously doubt he could use the attacks and use his lightsaber at the same time.
Yes, it's true that right as he embraced the Dark Side, he could barely control his rage (which fuels the attacks).
And when Luke picked up his father's lightsaber for the second time, a remote handed his ass to him.
Because Kun made a second amulet and because he's in greater control of his power by the time of the Sith War, there is plenty of reason to estimate that Kun is far more proficient at wielding the blasts that come from his amulet. Else, why would he have made another one?
Nai:
IKC you keep on making the same mistakes over and over again:
And you keep on failing to address, or even show that you understand, my points.
a)
The Senate Chamber was frozen and thereby forced to watch and not to react. That means that they weren't able to do anything except watching and not that Kun made them turn their heads to focus on every movement he did. In fact that idea would even contradict the statement that they were frozen because frozen people don't move.
Good job dodging the point. I'll post it again for you:
I like how you even quoted the relevant section yet your poor reading comprehension didn't pick up on it.Forced to watch and not react means that all the audience was forced to look at what Kun wanted them to look at, no?
Alright. So do you mean to tell me that every last being in the entire chamber was already looking at what Kun wanted them to look at before he burst into the room? Sorry. The odds for that are prohibitively high. Ergo, Kun forced those that were looking in other directions to look at what he wanted them to see via control.
For good measure, here:
The narration isn't clear what they were forced to watch, only that all of them were forced to watch it. It's proper to assume that they were forced to watch whatever Kun wanted them to watch.Now, given that they were forced to watch what Kun wanted them to watch, he must have controlled them. Why? Because the odds of every being in the Senate already looking at what Kun wants them to see, before the spell was cast, are prohibitively high. Ergo, any spectator that was, for example, looking at his shoes, picking his nose, or holding a side conversation was stopped and forced to watch what Kun made them watch. QED.
If I have a bad reading comprehension - yours is non-existant.
Which is why you can only read one half of a sentence and completely ignore the other, right?
Where did I say that a great amount of concentration means that people can't even talk any longer while concentrating ? Have we seen people concentrating (e.g. battle meditation) and fighting major enemies in the same time ? Obviously Arca Jeth wasn't able to focus on his direct surrounding enough while using battle meditation and got pwned by a protocol-droid with a laser. And you want to tell me that Kun can use a greater amount of force power - while still being able to fight (or no "tool"😉 his archenemy Vodo, blast people around and mind-control other people ?
I brought up the conversation point (and it's the weakest one, the strongest one is the battle point) because if one is concentrating on something else, it rather precludes them from engaging in other activities. Or, at least it should. Obviously in the examples I brought up (such as Memit and Odan using battle meditation while flying their ships in battle), great concentration wasn't needed.
And I like how you're making things up regarding Arca's death. Here, I'll set it straight for you:
Arca using battle meditation: Hm. Nope, looks like he's fighting and lecturing Ulic. There's no evidence anywhere in this comic of him using battle meditation, in narration or otherwise.
And yes, you should accept that conclusion, because that's what the comic and logic dictate. Unless, of course, you're going to argue that he didn't actually do that and it was all a dream. I'm eagerly awaiting that argument.
And still you have failed to provide proof that Kun's spell works the same way as Aleema's small scale use of Sith magic. Did I miss Aleema's spell casting or is there just no spell ? A completely different situation. On the same level I can say that Luke did everything in the NJO and DN while focusing to keep 2 planets, a giant spaceship and Vader's fortress on Coruscant invisible. Does that make sense ?
Except... you have no proof that they work differently. See my reply to Fishy:
It's a very different kind? Says who? This isn't Star Wars According to Fishy, either. Prove up.Until then, because we use the simplest feasible answer; they work the same until shown otherwise.
I like now how you're denying the narrator, Nai. "Oh, that's not a spell! I didn't see any spellcasting! What? The narrator describes it as Sith magic? I don't see that! Yes, I have no idea how Sith magic works and I'm simply applying concepts from other fantasy literature to Star Wars on the basis of no evidence whatsoever! Why do you ask?"
Kun's instakill attack on Odan was no instakill. Go buy yourself a dictionary and look for the meaning of "instant". It's "the same moment" and obviously Odan didn't die "the same moment" Kun hit him - in contrary to the Jedi Masters that were hit by Kreia or the YV slayer that was hit by Luke.nd since Exar failed to use the same attack on Vodo, Sylvar, Ulic, Nomi or anybody else standing in his way but he just managed to kill a 1000-year-old Jedi that had just used a great amount of his own power to attack Exar I fail to see what should enable Exar to reproduce that action against NJO Luke or DE Sidious who are - without any doubt - more powerful than Odan and in a better physical condition.
Except not. The Jedi had time enough to grunt and groan. I'm sure the Vong was still alive "the same moment" he got hit. This nitpicking is getting pretty sad.
And he didn't "fail to use" the same attack on them so much as he didn't try to use the same attack. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
Also, you've zero evidence to make the claim that Odan used a great amount of his own power to make that attack. Nice unsupported assertion and, consequently, irrelevant misdirection.
And DE Sidious and Luke's power in comparison to Odan's is not as vast as you'd oh-so-love it to be. Indeed, Odan's probably closer to Luke than you'd like, given that he's probably forgotten more about the Force than our strikeout champ will ever learn.
Also nice how you assume that Odan recognized Exar as the threat Exar really was when Exar himself even asks Odan if he knows who Exar is and Odan keeps calling him a "Dark Jedi" which is certainly not "Dark Lord of the Sith".
I don't "assume" Odan knows that Exar is a threat. The narrator makes it clear for me:
"Odan-Urr immediately knows he is in the presence of a dark force."
Looks like he recognizes the threat to me! I don't think he just lashes out and attacks anybody that walks into his room.
Your "point" that he calls him a Dark Jedi is an irrelevant misdirection and logical fallacy.
For the training times. If you know jack shit about the sources of Luke's knowledge why don't you just keep your mouth shut ? He had no knowledge about the lightsaber forms. He had knowledge from Ossus, the complete knowledge from a Jedi training vessel and was taught by at least three PT Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda, Vima). But mysteriously he had no knowledge about the lightsaber styles that were used by the PT people ? That's why he's even labelled to be a form V user like his father ?
Why don't I keep my mouth shut? Because I'm winning. I haven't asked you to shut up yet. Are we nervous?
He had remnants from Ossus, a planet that was hit by ten supernovae. Show me what he learned, Nai. What's that? You can't?
He had knowledge from a Jedi training vessel - great job, any Jedi aboard?
He was taught by three PT Jedi - And? Didn't seem to do much sparring, did he?
Here's the big point: He hasn't trained with anyone who was better than him with the weapon. His training, ergo, is worth less than the training Exar received at the hands of living, breathing instructors who sparred with him.
That and there's also the fact that Exar didn't need to root through the remnants of old knowledge to learn how to swing his saber...
And the people he trained with. I guess Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't trained by him. Kyle - before even placing a foot in Luke's academy - defeated Boba Fett, an entire Imperial base, legions of Dark Siders and (now the funny part) was able to use the uber-powerful "strip people from the force attack" since he used it against Jerec as well as against himself past MOTS. And the nice amounts of knowledge Exar himself gave to Kyp Durron also don't count as well as the knowledge given to Mara Jade by Vader / Sidious apparently enough to beat Luke's own clone.
Nice command of English, Nai. Nope, Yoda and Obi-Wan were not trained by Luke Skywalker. You got at least that one right.
But seriously folks, show me where they did any lightsaber sparring. What's that? You can't? Nor can you provide evidence for the assumption that they did? Aww, too bad. Better luck next time.
As for Katarn: Okay, you can give feat wars for Katarn's achievements, many of which were not done as a Force user. Nice job.
By the way, show me the evidence that Katarn stripped Jerec and himself from the Force. The actual canon dictates that he killed Jerec and then gave up using the Force after MOTS until JO. Nice job making things up again.
So was Exar sparring Kyp Durron with his lightsaber? Somehow, I think not.
So Mara Jade can kill a clone that's not even a year old - great job, there! I'd submit that said clone doesn't even have the experience of ESB Luke in lightsaber combat.
Also I wonder how you fail to see that Luke and Sidious have more training compared to Exar. Exar had just a few years under Vodo followed by studying the things Nadd and Sadow had to give to him. Sidious had an entire lifetime to study (although less knowledge than Kun) trained at least 2 people (Vader and Maul) for 2 decades each as well as several other people (Hethrir, his "hands"😉 while Luke trained dozens of people and spent 2 decades in his own Academy with the sources listed above.
Mostly because Luke's training isn't worth much. Living, breathing instructors that you can spar with are a little more helpful than the looted remnants of those instructors.
I like how you're now assuming that Kun had only "a few years" under Vodo. Got any evidence for that, either, or are you just making things up once again?
Sidious had an entire lifetime to study and train apprentices... if you forget that he spent the vast majority of that lifetime planning to take over the Republic, being a politician, and running the Empire. So I guess that's why he beat Mace Wind... oh wait. I guess having little responsibilities other than typical Jedi duties leaves one more time to train with their lightsaber after all! This is leaving out the fact that, twenty some-odd years later, he got his ass handed to him by a farmboy who picked up the weapon less than a decade earlier and who still used it like a baseball bat five years after. Doesn't look like he's been keeping up his saber practices, does it?
Luke had two decades to study... if you don't count all the miscellaneous books wherein he has to help defeat threat X. He had two decades to study if you conveniently disregard that he's busy training new generations of Jedi. Oh yeah, he's a regular saber machine.
So what did all these irrelevant misdirections and feat wars net you regarding Luke's (or Sidious'😉 saber skills? Jack shit. Their training, such as it was, was worthless in comparison to what Kun received.
For the Sith holocrons held by the Jedi order. We know that the person starting the Brotherhood of Darkness stole a Sith holocron from the Jedi archieves. That's a fact and I love how you just ignore it. So I don't have to assume that their knowledge came from that single holocron because this is mentioned in the actual source.
Do I have to state it again? I'll put it in big print so you can read it while leaning back and drinking from your sippy cup.
The PT is not the Ruusan era!
The Jedi only had one Sith holocron at the time of the PT. Your irrelevant misdirection means nothing.
And does it state that all their knowledge came from said holocron? I've read Jedi vs. Sith. Doesn't make any mention of it.
Yet you have one Sith holocron stolen from the Jedi and still they have forbidden knowledge and multiple holocrons lying around in their temple but of course the total amounts of Sith holocrons that were ever stored in the Jedi temple equals "one". So you must be right with your assumption when we have proof that you are wrong, right ?
Except you seem to think that PT era = Ruusan era. It's not. You see, there's this thing called "time" and it's assumed to move in a fairly linear fashion. Ruusan comes before the PT, in case you didn't know.
[/Condescension]
Again, as I recall, Episode II visual dictionary states that they only have one Sith holocron. QED.
And Dooku was just mentioned to show you that Sidious had access to Sith holocrons too. Meaning you have what Sidious had + the stuff stored in the temple and that was accesable for Luke and Sidious.
And your reading comprehension failed you again, because I was arguing what the Jedi had.
Uh, Luke had access to it? Since when? Show us what he learned from it, then.
Abilities unique to the Dark Side are at least parts of the Sith Magic lore such as force lightning, force drain, life drain and force storm.
This isn't Star Wars According to Nai, again. Prove up. Until then it's an unsupported assumption.
For Kun's amulets: I was asking how Kun will accelerate his beams enough to hit people who move faster than blaster bolts. No answer ? And if people can "block" (or "turn away"😉 fire from space ships I fail to see why they should unable to do the same thing with Kun's amulet blast especially when Kun was nearly unable to control said blasts himself (see picture Fishy posted) - which would make it quite unlikely that he will use them in a while fighting with his lightsaber or use them precisely enough to blast people who are moving faster than blaster bolts.
I like how they can "move faster than blaster bolts" but Kun can't. Good standards there, Nai.
That and only one person was shown to turn away turbolaser blasts (and he's not Luke or Sidious), which again don't operate under the same principles as beams of the Force shot from someone's hands. It's unlikely at best to assume that they can just treat them exactly like turbolasers. I only said they were similar to turbolasers since they seem to cause the same amount of damage.
As for Fishy's picture, I answered already:
Yes, it's true that right as he embraced the Dark Side, he could barely control his rage (which fuels the attacks).And when Luke picked up his father's lightsaber for the second time, a remote handed his ass to him.
Because Kun made a second amulet and because he's in greater control of his power by the time of the Sith War, there is plenty of reason to estimate that Kun is far more proficient at wielding the blasts that come from his amulet. Else, why would he have made another one?
And why is precision required when these beams are practically as large as a room?
You don't have a leg to stand on.
The narration isn't clear what they were forced to watch, only that all of them were forced to watch it. It's proper to assume that they were forced to watch whatever Kun wanted them to watch.Now, given that they were forced to watch what Kun wanted them to watch, he must have controlled them. Why? Because the odds of every being in the Senate already looking at what Kun wants them to see, before the spell was cast, are prohibitively high. Ergo, any spectator that was, for example, looking at his shoes, picking his nose, or holding a side conversation was stopped and forced to watch what Kun made them watch. QED.
If you're going to argue that all of them were already looking at what Kun wanted them to see, you're hopeless.
We never see one of them move, not one, except for those that weren't frozen. And if they move they aren't frozen that much is clear. So unless the Narrator is lying, which he isn't then they couldn't move and were indeed frozen. Besides if he controlled them the Narrator would have said that. This is why this debate is stupid IKC because you try to make Exar look like a god with things he didn't do.
Except the narration contradicts you. The entire chamber is forced to watch and not react. Ergo, the two possibilities I laid out previously stand.
Using the nitpicking that passes for your logic, I could ask you why Kun didn't simply barge in, grab Ulic, and run? That was, after all, his primary objective. He didn't really need to walk all the way up the podium and use the Chancellor as a puppet.
Kun's big on theatrics, as we see in the comics. That's why.
That makes no sense, he was big on those things so what? He had no reason to not freeze the Jedi or let the chancellor go. The Jedi also didn't seem to notice that they were frozen because nobody said anything about it after Exar Kun supposedly released them. Its clear that he simply did not freeze the Jedi and the Chancellor.
It's a very different kind? Says who? This isn't Star Wars According to Fishy, either. Prove up.Until then, because we use the simplest feasible answer; they work the same until shown otherwise.
When using battle meditation people meditated, thats different then just an instant spell, everything that is done against a large group of people is done by meditation, unless you can name an example where a huge amount of people were frozen, influenced or whatever without meditation its proper to assume that Kun did use some kind of meditation or ritual simply because thats ussually done when it involves a large amount of people.
No shit? Except we don't know he had the power to do those things already because we can't really quantify his power or his knowledge at this point. His midway between his Jedi days and his time as the Dark Lord. We know very little of his capabilities.You have no sense of the chronology of this series (big surprise). Exar kills Odan over six months after the duel with Ulic.
He still had that amulet of his, he could have just blasted Ulic away, why didn't he?
What a crock of shit! Show me where he "gives up." Jesus H. Christ, show me where the three Jedi that Traya instakilled "give up." My God, they groaned! They must not have been instantly killed!
Sorry, no. "I cannot stop it," doesn't mean "I give up." English is your friend.
The three Jedi Kreia kills just die, Odan does not die instantly, its not an instakill attack its never defined as such its just a powerful attack that killed him. Thats what it is, just because it happens to kill him pretty fast doesn't mean its an instakill attack.
Except my assumptions to the positive are based on the same logic and evidence, evidence you enjoy nitpicking and ignoring when it suits you.
Like your controlling the Chancellor assumption, when you knew better then anybody else here that the Chancellor could still move? Don't give me this shit, you are the biggest Kun fanboy we have, and if anybody else would use your logic for a none TOTJ character you would be all over it.
Actually, we don't know that the already-dead Sith frequently talk to each other. It seems that they sometimes don't, given Ajunta hadn't had contact with anyone for so long.It doesn't really matter which Sith he talked to since the things said Sith said to him (at least, some of them) were retconned. However, there is no reason to assume that it was Ragnos or that Ragnos had anything to do with the exchange.
Except for the fact that we know the ancients talked about things, if Ragnos crowned Exar Kun then we know he was part of the Sith group that talked together, as some of the Sith said to Nadd that Kun was ready. Unless there is a reason to assume these things would have been changed 4000 years later its proper to assume that they were once again the same Sith, possibly lead by Ragnos. And really I don't see why you care about this, what does it matter who crowned them or who said Sidious could join the ancients and take a place there. What does it matter? What would it change? It doesn't say jack shit about power its just a nice feat, so who the hell cares anyways...
Again, see the above. There's no proof for group decision making with the dead Sith. Indeed, there's little to no evidence for it at all.
BTW: He says his name doesn't matter, yes. Then you read the rest of the sentence where he says, "My power is all that should concern you."
My. Not our. It is described as a message from their reigning Dark Lord.
The spirit was identified as Ragnos in later material, by the way. I'm sure most of the guides list it as him.
I'm sure, do you actually have them and did you actually see it?
And Nadd is a spirit who wasn't attacked in the same manner. We've been over this already; direct contact with his spirit and the amulet is what destroyed him.The beast was fired at from close to point-blank range (meaning the beam hadn't spread much yet) and was not hit in a vital area the first time. I assume that it's like a snake and can survive, for a little bit, with a gaping hole through its middle.
However, we cannot just go and claim that the Ancient Sith knew a defense against the amulet when there's no evidence for it. It's just as likely that they didn't use them on each other because they knew the other Sith could use their own amulets, thus giving them Mutually Assured Destruction.
And "it's very possible" that Star Wars takes place on a microscopic scale inside Lucas' rectum. Without evidence, don't claim it.
By that logic I can say that Ragnos never fought anybody because the Sith wouldn't want to destroy themselves and that he had 100 years of peace during his reign. The sith were backstabbing bastards that wanted to kill each other at every chance, the amulets if they would work against each other would be a perfect killing mechanism, they were in war with each other anyways, so they would have used it if it was needed, and they would have had a defence against it.
What that defence was I don't know, but because we don't have anything about that we must simply assume the most simple of explanations is the right one, they blocked the attacks with the force.
Yes, it's true that right as he embraced the Dark Side, he could barely control his rage (which fuels the attacks).And when Luke picked up his father's lightsaber for the second time, a remote handed his ass to him.
Because Kun made a second amulet and because he's in greater control of his power by the time of the Sith War, there is plenty of reason to estimate that Kun is far more proficient at wielding the blasts that come from his amulet. Else, why would he have made another one?
He never used the amulet again in such a manner, he never used the second amulet in such a manner. If he could control it why not? Maybe because he couldn't? Maybe because he was afraid he could destroy it. Except for your assumption we have nothing to say he could control it, when he says he couldn't and then proceeds to never use it again.
