Exar Kun vs NJO Luke and DE Sidious

Ah, sorry it took me so long to get back to you. Been a bit busy lately.

BTW, still waiting for a response at EoD in the Antediluvian thread.

Originally posted by IKC
And here you were going on at DTF about how Luke is moving away from that concept by DN. And then there's the question: How advanced are his dark side techniques? Who did he learn them from? Etc.

Moving away, yes. Abandoned, no. Luke has had access to places like Ossus, which probably has information on the Dark Side in it. Jedi did keep knowledge of the Sith to learn what their enemies knew to help fight them.

Originally posted by IKC
Uh, dude. For one, Ossus is a Jedi stronghold. It's not going to have knowledge of advanced techniques of the Sith. Secondly, when did Luke ever get a Sith holocron?

Ossus has information on the Sith ways in it. The Jedi learned the Sith stuff in order to be better able to combat them. Also, it’s stated in the TOTJ comics, DLOS 1, near the beginning, that Vodo’s holocron had Sith teaching’s in it. This is the same holocron that Luke eventually got.

The Emperor's storehouse on Wayland wasn't said to carry knowledge on Force techniques. Indeed, as I remember all it had was Joruus, the Spaarti cloning cylinders, and various datachips (one of which was The Hand of Thrawn).

It also had Luke’s hand, which had a serial number that was several digits long. If the storehouse had only contained a few items, such a classification system would be unnecessary. Also note that Borsk Fey’la stated that in it was items of unspeakable evil. And where else would Palpatine have kept the many, many artifacts that he had? It was his storehouse after all. Remember that it was stated in RODV that Sidious had many of Darth Bane’s holocrons. It certainly seems like a good place to keep stuff like that.

And I can assume that Luke doesn't know the Force Storm because he could merely have tried to summon one against Palpatine by the end of DE. What, specifically, did he learn from Palpatine, hm? I'm not sure Palpatine did much teaching. He certainly didn't seem to bother teaching Anakin anything.

Sidious didn’t teach Anakin anything? Unlikely. Sidious gave Anakin full access to the Jedi Archive, much of which have previously been cut off from him by the Order, and access to Darth Bane’s holocrons. Sidious gave Anakin plenty of opportunity to learn. The same would seem to be true for Luke. Sidious would give him access to the large amounts of knowledge and let him have at it. BTW, to assume that Luke was powerful enough to summon a force storm that would kill DE Sidious as early as DE is ridiculous.

Except ROTJ Luke could hardly be called a Jedi, and it would be more accurate to say that Jedi of the PT and before knew Shii Cho. Ergo, Luke wouldn't apply.

My point remains though. We can NOT assume that someone knows something just because people of their time invented it. Here is a better example. Mace invented Vapaad just like the Ancient Sith invented force storms(at least according to you. I’ve never heard that it was the Ancient Sith that invented them except from you). Now, maybe 5 Jedi knew even some of Vapaad. The same could easily be true for the Ancient Sith. Perhaps Ragnos, Naga, and Ludo knew how to make force storms, but not all of the Ancient SIth did.

It's not an oversimplification, the force storm was described as being derived from the Sith of old. Ergo, it is not an oversimplified assumption to say that the strongest of that era know the technique, because absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Where was the concepts of force storms said to be from the Ancient Sith or Sith of Old(I assume that is referring to the Ancient Sith.)? Furthermore, the Ancient Sith Empire laster 2000 years. Just because Ancient Sith came up with it doesn’t mean that Sith in the end of the Empire still knew it.

You should be more accurate and say that Jedi who are taught how to make a lightsaber and have access to the proper material can make a lightsaber. Your examples are oversimplified, the concept of absence of proof is not proof of absence isn't.

My example perfectly fits in with the concept that absence of proof is not proof of absence. There must be more proof then your ridiculous assumptions provide. By the same concept I could state that ROTJ Luke might be able to defeat Ragnos because he can turn into a god whenever he feels like it. Prove me wrong. You can’t though. You can provide proof so that the statement becomes so unlikely that it can be disregarded, but by your ‘logic’ you can’t prove me wrong.

To press the point further, absence of proof does not override the fact that you cannot reasonably ask someone to prove a negative. Taking it another step further, it doesn’t absence of proof is not proof of absence does not prove positive either. In and of itself it means nothing as far as these debates go. When mixed when a reasonable degree of proof, then it can help to supplement the proof that must be provided first. You haven’t done that in most, if not all of the instances that you have fallen back on the idea that absence of proof is not proof of absence. All absence of proof means is that the idea is still open, not that it is true nor is it implying that it is true, just still open for debate. Ergo, that statement and the results of it can be disregarded until you provide proof of otherwise. *End Rant*

Been reading much?

I believe Fishy already adequately addressed this.

Well, he did manipulate the Senate. That, combined with the apparent ease with which he performed it, is my premise behind saying that he could have done other things and just because he didn't doesn't mean he couldn't.

QED.

That in no way proves that Exar could have controlled the Senate. It only means that it is still open for debate. Your ‘proof’ isn’t really proof at all.

I've stated it was a few spectacular attacks of terrorism. Actually, Ulic's attack on Coruscant would have succeeded, however, if Aleema had not pulled his forces back and left him out to dry.

When you consider just how many planets the Republic has, the taking of one planet, even on as powerful as Coruscant is little more then a terrorist attack to the Republic as a whole. To the Jedi it was a large event, but if there were, say, 500 thousand planets in the Republic at that time, Coruscant would be a very small drop in the bucket.

Just curious, why did Aleema leave him if the attack was going so good?

They were present because he was on trial by the Senate. There's no reason to assume they were absent, and even less when you see the seats were full.

As I have stated many, many times, even if the seats were full no necessarily every single Senator would be present. With things like kyperspace communication it would be unnecessary for every Senator to be there at the same time.

Even by ROTS the Senate Chamber could not possibly have held a million being. Even if there were 10 people per pod, one hundred thousand(100,000) would be an upper limit as there is no way that there are more then 10,000 pounds in the ROTS seen. That, along with the fact that the Senate Chamber in TOTJ does not appear to hold even close to a million people and that there is no need for a million people to be there totally destroys your argument for such.

Lol! Okay, give me a colony world then.

Saffalore.

Uh, bullshit. The Trade Federation was there because they have delegates.

Prove that they would had been there had they not been accused of taking over Naboo.

And yes, they're the only non-government entity we see in the Senate. And absence of proof is not proof of absence. Ergo, it's a safe assumption to believe that similar entities have
representation.

What is with you and your new line of thinking that lack of proof is proof positive? It’s really getting annoying. The Federation was only there because they were being accused of the invation of a Republic world.

By the way, it's not like Amidala made a grand announcement that she was going to indict the Federation. So how would they know claims would be made against them?

I don’t know why they were there. It could be that it was just chance or that they were discussing other matters at that moment with the rest of the Senate. The points remain though. There are no other known non-government organizations with representation in Senate, there are no colony worlds with representation in the Senate, and that the Senate Chamber is not nearly large enough to hold a million beings.

Prove up.

You’re asking me to prove that the don’t have something? I suggest you prove that they have a seat first.

No, that's your subjective observation.

And there is the fact that the Sith War (its real title, stop calling it the Great Sith Wars, etc) pretty much ruined most of the Republic's military shipyards and destroyed a cluster of ten stars. It did affect the Republic quite a bit.

Attacking the seat of government is a call for action. The Senators were present. To claim otherwise begs for proof, and you've provided none.

Ruined most of their shipyards? The Republic has so many shipyards that it’s highly unlikely that the Sith could have caused an major damage to the Republic shipyards in as short a time that the war went on. Unless you can provide some major proof that they caused major disruption to the shipyards, we can assume that they did not and that there would be little disruption to the Repbulic.

Continued...

Ten stars? How is that such a big deal out of mutiple hundred thousand Republic? Look at it this way. The Republic is huge, that many stars is less then a tenth of a percent of what they have.

Even an attack on Coruscant would not require all of the Senators to meet at Coruscant. If anything many Senators would try and get the hell out of there.

According to your subjective observation.

Look at the freakin scene. There is no way that it could hold a million people, nor is there any need for it too.

Did it hurt when you pulled this number out of your ass?

Look at the ROTS scenes with the Senate. There are FAR less then 10,000 pods in there. You can’t argue against it, there is no way that there were a million people in the Senate Chamber.

Yes, it is. Your subjective observation doesn't mean anything. You are required to prove up.

Look at the seen. It’s not subjective, it can be quantified. There are less then ten thousand pods in the room. There are less then ten thousand pods in there. Even if there were ten people per pod, that’s still only a hundred thousand people. ONE TENTH of the number you keep wrongly assuming to be true.

Versus somebody who actually has all the comics. You were dead wrong.

Keep rubbing the fact that I only have one comic in my face an I might remind you that you haven’t read jack about the NJO guys, which is who you are debating against.

This is something like the fifth Lightsnake argument you've used since you've come back, the "zOMG, EXAR PULLED OUT A TRUMP CARD" bullshit.

Here, something Nai told Lightsnake:

Sorry. Kun controlled and toyed with Vodo the entire time. Then, when it was clear Vodo wouldn't join, Kun busts through his staff with one side of his saber.

Based off of your subjective opinion, Exar toyed with Vodo the entire time. That’s not proof.

No, it appears I understood it perfectly well.

If he believed himself capable, why didn't he do it? Hm? I love how you're not mentioning that he's a freaking madman and his judgment is far from the best.

He didn’t control the men of the Chimera for the five day journey to Coruscant because of what else he would need to do. He would have needed to bring dozens of other support ships with him and he would have needed to control hundreds of thousands of minds in battle conditions. That’s why he didn’t do it.

I’ve already addressed the issue on Joruus being mad. If you had read the Thrawn books you would know that his madness comes and goes randomly. If Joruus was mad at the time that he took over the Chimera, then no, he presumably would not have had the best judgment. The point remains however that Joruus, while mad, was able to focus to the level necessary to control 37,000 minds. When sane again his level on concentration would rise considerably.

If Joruus was sane at the time, then he really did believe that he could control the 37,000 people on board the Chimera for the five day journey to Coruscant and that he realized that he couldn’t control the hundreds of thousands it would take to defeat Coruscant for five days on top of controlling those men in battle conditions. You can’t manipulate this to serve your goals, IKC.

Except Exar controlled many times as many beings and did so with so little effort that he was able to walk around, use the Chancellor as a puppet, and do battle.

And just because Joruus planned to do it doesn't mean he could or did do it. Ergo, that point means precisely dick.

Exar controlled many beings for a far shorter period of time then Joruus, a Jedi Master, believed that he could have. Whether or not Joruus could have done battle while controlling the Chimera means nothing as no one is arguing that Joruus is on the same level as Exar, just that Exar is not on a level of his own as Joruus believed that he had the ability to do a feat that rivals what Exar did.

If Joruus had done the feat, then it would become just another feat. The fact that Joruus, a Jedi Master believed he could do it more or less means that he would have a VERY high chance of success.

They are "forced to watch and not react." That does seem to be mind control, no? Just because he didn't have them dancing or performing cabaret doesn't mean he couldn't - the ease with which he held them indicates otherwise.

The ease with which Exar froze them is of no consequence on it’s own in relation to Exar being able to fully control them. You need to prove a positive first, or else no one will really care jack about what Exar could possibly have done.

Just reminding you again, I still want that response at Eod in the Antediluvian thread.

This is an overkill on Kun, that's obvious

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Just curious, why did Aleema leave him if the attack was going so good?

I can answer this one. Aleema purposely left Ulic so that he would get captured.

Originally posted by tdtd
This is an overkill on Kun, that's obvious

I don't think most people are arguing for Luke as much as they are arguing against Exar. IKC has kind of put him on a pedestal that he doesn't belong on.

I completely agree with glentract

Again you are using logical fallacies as proof. So because he can perfom action Y (unlocking Ulic's chains) from a certain range he can automatically perform action X (controlling the Chancelor) from the same range ? What BS is that, IKC ? Would you agree that controlling millions of people at once or controlling a single person takes a little more effort than simple telekinesis ? The two actions aren't even compareable.

1) Except then you use your brain and realize that Kun was actively controlling the rest of the Senate already:

Because the odds are so prohibitively high that each and every spectator in that building was looking at what Kun wanted them to look at already, it is logically sound to assume that what Kun did was not a simple freeze spell, but one of control. Why? Because he forces them to watch what he wants them to watch. Anyone who wasn't already looking at what he wanted them to see would have been forced to. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Therefore, because Kun has demonstrated the ability to control the rest of the Senate, comprised of a great multitude of multiracial beings, it is also logically sound to assume that he did not need to walk up to the Chancellor to control him, either. He did, though, because it is obvious that Kun is big on theatrics, as demonstrated by his entrance to the Senate itself:

Sith magic was always ritualized form of force use. Go and check every source about Sith history and it will tell you that the Sith used rituals. So I don't see how "Sith magic" in this case suddenly developed into instant force use.

2) Lol. I love how you tell me to "go check every source" but fail to provide one, and the ones I have show it as instantaneous. Example:

Aleema does things like that throughout DLotS and TSW. In fact, the only Sith ritual that we know of is the one at the end of TSW when Kun released his spirit. That's it.

So put up or shut up.

And the point alone that nobody could control such an amount of beings without preperation time or massive concentration alone is reason enough to assume that Kun needed either a ritual ("spellcasting" - Sith magic) or massive amounts of concentration to keep that control up. Since he doesn't display the second that points to the first.

Except not. You haven't proven that "nobody" could control such an amount of beings. Kun is shown to have done it. Ergo, this combined with the fact that almost all Sith magic is shown to be instantaneous with the exception of one incident, the onus is on you to prove that Kun used a ritual.

With this logic you can assume everything and nobody can say something against it. Yoda is the most powerful being ever because he could destroy planets with a snap of his fingers ? You don't believe me ? Well...absence of proof is not proof of absence so unless you can't provide proof that Yoda can't tear down planets (which is impossible) I can assume that he has that ability. Do you see how stupid that is ?

Uh, except Kun was shown to perform this feat, and knowing what we know about Sith magic, he did it instantly. Seeing what we saw with Kun's behavior while he held the spell in effect, it was nearly effortless. So the onus is on you to prove otherwise.

Again: You have to provide proof that he can and not vice versa.

See point 1.

Oh he "instakilled" Odan-Urr ? That's why Odan is still talking after Kun did hit him ? Yeah, right. So because Kun was able to kill a 1000-year-old Jedi Master, a 400 year old spirit and could throw Sylvar around like a ragdoll he can suddenly instakill people like NJO Luke or Sidious ?

3) Oh, so because he managed to utter a few words as he was dying from Kun's attack, that means Kun didn't instakill him? By that logic, Traya didn't instakill anyone either because the Jedi grunted and screamed.

Odan was alive for precisely one panel after Kun hit him, and he was dying in said panel. Kun instakilled him.

Bah...and absence of proof is no proof either. And this seems to be the way it works for you when it comes to Kun's power. He never has shown the ability to kill people in the hight of their power with blasts from his amulets so unless you can proof that he can do that the facts show that he can't meaning he simply can't destroy Sidious with a single blast of his amulet.

Uh, what? You just effectively stated my absence of proof was proof of absence. Logical fallacy, anyone?

Kun's never shown to take a shit. Does this mean he can't?

And apart from this Sidious had nearly a century to gather knowledge and he obviously visited Korriban and Ziost - and we have seen him talking to the Ancient Sith. And you are talking about simple force defence here. How does that require to be an ancient Sith nowadays. So Yoda was a Sith obviously, because he could block Sith lightning ?

Uh, what century was this that Sidious was spending gathering the crumbs of what was left of the Ancient Sith?

Yes, he spoke to the "ancient Sith" in DE, which was later retconned by the very existence of TOTJ which throws the entire DE backstory timeline off by about three thousand years as well as completely destroys the hyperbolic descriptions of DE Luke and DE Sidious' power.

4) And no, we're not talking about "simple force defense" when we're talking about blasts from the hands that seem to be as powerful as capital ship cannons. Perhaps you need to see the scans again:

And we can assume that the Ancient Sith either had a defense for it because Ragnos could merely have been blown away by Sadow or someone else if there were no defense. Another theory is that the ancient Sith did not dare to use the amulets in this manner because they knew that the other Sith may be able to get their own shot off, which would result in mutually assured destruction.

And I hope that blasts are faster than laser bolts since we have seen a Padawan running away with force speed from blasterfire in TPM. And of course Kun will keep firing on Sidious while having to fight Luke and both will not even think about attacking Kun on melee range and thereby avoiding fire from the amulets.

Er, see point #4, specifically the scans. How would closing to melee range really help them when 1) the blasts come from his hands and thereby would be harder to avoid and 2) Kun's a master of lightsaber combat, arguably one of if not the best depicted on panel or on screen?

Yeah...the glowing of the amulet when he kills Odan obviously is nothing, same when he throws Sylvar around. That's just his personal force power of course.

Make things up much?

Hmm, no glowing there.

5) As for Odan:

We see Odan glow blue on the very same f'ing page. Aleema's attacks shoot green. Are these two using Sith amulets, Nai?

Well?

Nice try, but go with some solid evidence next time. It was Kun's power until proven otherwise.

So I guess Odans "I am old...evil is loose in the galaxy... and I cannot stop it" simply means that Kun was just so over powerful and that's why Odan emphasizes that he is old.

Uh, Nai, he didn't say "I've been killed because I'm old," or "I'm dying because I'm old." He was quite obviously well enough to attempt an attack on Kun that failed because of Kun's overwhelming power. Odan didn't die because he was old, he died because Kun was too powerful for him.

I guess 25,000 years of holocrons, scrolls and other stuff stored in the Jedi temple and plundered by Sidious - clearly including Sith holocrons as they are mentioned on several ocassions - should include quite some knowledge about the Dark Side. Of course it's nothing compared to what Kun had but I don't see where Kun's superior knowledge (Sith magic, Sith alchemy) would be of any help here.

6) Actually, not. They only had one Sith holocron by the time of the PT and it's unclear what, exactly, Sith holocrons contain. The one that Kun obtained actually held the spirits of Ancient Sith themselves, ergo it's fallacious to argue that Sidious learned jack shit from a Sith holocron until we see concrete, canon evidence. That and it's evident from the PT that Jedi knowledge was stored in the Library. So what scrolls would Sidious have found, then? I'd argue that Kun's plundering of Ossus netted him far more valuable knowledge in both quality and quantity than Sidious' plundering of Coruscant's temple.

Kun's superior knowledge is extraordinarily helpful when you use your brain and realize that Sith magic itself was one of the principle traits that made the Ancients so uber.

I wonder how Luke will resist non-existant instakill attacks too...

See points 4 and 5.

Of course Sidious, being the Dark Lord of the Sith won't know Sith magic especially when his force storm seems to be exactly that.

No, the storm is never described as sith magic. It's described as a weapon of the Sith. Sith magic didn't exist canonically at the time that DE was written. It was made to exist, along with the Ancient Sith, with the writing of TOTJ.

And of course he will score 100 % hits on two people who both have demonstrated the ability to move faster than the eye can see. This will of course lead to instant death of Sidious because he gets hit by a weapon we've never seen killing a force user instantly. And you're talking to me about "pointless hypotheticals" when this is what your entire "Kun wins this easily" argument is based on ?

As if Kun is suddenly a shitty shot, untrained in simple Jedi precognition and using the Force to enhance his own speed? Right. Nevermind that said blasts were about as big around as the Sith Wyrm they were used on.

"weapon we've never seen killing a force user instantly."

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Kun's never shown to kill Jar Jar, does this mean he can't? We never see the Death Star kill a force user with the main superlaser, does that mean it can't?

The pwnage will continue, with Glentract:

Moving away, yes. Abandoned, no. Luke has had access to places like Ossus, which probably has information on the Dark Side in it. Jedi did keep knowledge of the Sith to learn what their enemies knew to help fight them.

Ossus didn't have jack shit on Sith lore other than basic history that they weren't even sure of. Hell, Odan was in possession of what was thought to be the only Sith holocron to exist before Exar took it from him.

The Jedi had knowledge of some of the Sith's capabilities but that doesn't mean they knew how to perform these actions. It would seem ridiculous to assume that they kept records of how to use Dark Side attacks when it goes completely against their philosophy.

And maybe you don't remember, but Ossus was scorched with ten supernovae. Very, very little, if anything, survived that holocaust.

Ossus has information on the Sith ways in it. The Jedi learned the Sith stuff in order to be better able to combat them. Also, it’s stated in the TOTJ comics, DLOS 1, near the beginning, that Vodo’s holocron had Sith teaching’s in it. This is the same holocron that Luke eventually got.

See above point.

And in DLotS, it is shown that Vodo's holocron only has Sith history, not knowledge, techniques, or otherwise. This holocron is also the one that Exar destroys, as well.

It also had Luke’s hand, which had a serial number that was several digits long. If the storehouse had only contained a few items, such a classification system would be unnecessary. Also note that Borsk Fey’la stated that in it was items of unspeakable evil. And where else would Palpatine have kept the many, many artifacts that he had? It was his storehouse after all. Remember that it was stated in RODV that Sidious had many of Darth Bane’s holocrons. It certainly seems like a good place to keep stuff like that.

Yes, because Borsk Fey'la was an expert on Sith lore, and he couldn't possibly be talking about the mountains of datacards detailing many of Palpatine's secrets. Oh, no.

What artifacts did Palpatine have, hm? Can you name any? Why was he so stupid that, if he had them, he didn't use them?

Darth Bane is not an Ancient Sith. Bane's knowledge comes nowhere near what Kun gathered. Hell, Sidious' knowledge comes nowhere near:

Read the narration.

Sidious didn’t teach Anakin anything? Unlikely. Sidious gave Anakin full access to the Jedi Archive, much of which have previously been cut off from him by the Order, and access to Darth Bane’s holocrons. Sidious gave Anakin plenty of opportunity to learn. The same would seem to be true for Luke. Sidious would give him access to the large amounts of knowledge and let him have at it. BTW, to assume that Luke was powerful enough to summon a force storm that would kill DE Sidious as early as DE is ridiculous.

Giving them access to something and teaching are two wildly different things. As well, Sidious lost a great amount of the access to his old knowledge by the time of DE. I could even go so far as to assume that all of the Bane holocrons were stuck on Coruscant where Sidious couldn't get to them by DE.

You must prove up: what did Sidious give Luke access to? Where is it even stated that he gave Luke access to anything?

My point remains though. We can NOT assume that someone knows something just because people of their time invented it. Here is a better example. Mace invented Vapaad just like the Ancient Sith invented force storms(at least according to you. I’ve never heard that it was the Ancient Sith that invented them except from you). Now, maybe 5 Jedi knew even some of Vapaad. The same could easily be true for the Ancient Sith. Perhaps Ragnos, Naga, and Ludo knew how to make force storms, but not all of the Ancient SIth did.

Where was the concepts of force storms said to be from the Ancient Sith or Sith of Old(I assume that is referring to the Ancient Sith.)? Furthermore, the Ancient Sith Empire laster 2000 years. Just because Ancient Sith came up with it doesn’t mean that Sith in the end of the Empire still knew it.

No, your point does not remain because your example was wildly flawed. For all you know, the Force storm was invented thousands of years before Ragnos even came to rule and was common knowledge among the Ancient Sith. Your assumption that only the top tier knew it is unsupported and therefore impermissible.

Force storms are described in narration as a weapon of the ancient Sith, as I recall from what Lightsnake argued. It is completely unspecified who knew it, therefore to assume that only X knew it or that Y didn't know it is completely unsupported and again, impermissible.

I believe Fishy already adequately addressed this.

That in no way proves that Exar could have controlled the Senate. It only means that it is still open for debate. Your ‘proof’ isn’t really proof at all.

Except not. See point #1.

When you consider just how many planets the Republic has, the taking of one planet, even on as powerful as Coruscant is little more then a terrorist attack to the Republic as a whole. To the Jedi it was a large event, but if there were, say, 500 thousand planets in the Republic at that time, Coruscant would be a very small drop in the bucket.

Debating from ignorance gets your ass handed to you.

7) As we see from Mandalore's dialogue and narration, the attack on Coruscant would have succeeded if Aleema had not canceled the attack. Ulic's plan was to get to the War Room (which he did) and have all the commanders of every Republic fleet hyperjump to the same point in space, which would decimiate the entire Republic navy. With that done, his military would easily be the strongest in the galaxy, which then would be vulnerable to Sith domination.

He was stopped before he could get the order out by the Jedi after Aleema pulled his support back and fled.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Just curious, why did Aleema leave him if the attack was going so good?

Veneficus answered. She wanted command of the combined armies of Teta and Mandalore.

As I have stated many, many times, even if the seats were full no necessarily every single Senator would be present. With things like kyperspace communication it would be unnecessary for every Senator to be there at the same time.

Except that there's no proof for your assertion that some members would have been there via long distance communication, and no reason to assume that they were. The proper assumption is that after an almost-successful attack on the capital world after which the leader of the belligerant military was captured, almost all if not all Senators would be present at his trial.

Even by ROTS the Senate Chamber could not possibly have held a million being. Even if there were 10 people per pod, one hundred thousand(100,000) would be an upper limit as there is no way that there are more then 10,000 pounds in the ROTS seen. That, along with the fact that the Senate Chamber in TOTJ does not appear to hold even close to a million people and that there is no need for a million people to be there totally destroys your argument for such.

8) Again, did it hurt to pull that subjective observation number out of your ass?

To quote myself: Uh, my scans work. Take a look at the one I posted previously (), and look at the Chancellor's podium again. In that scan, we get a ground-level view of it. It's enormous. It might be as big around as the Washington Monument. The thing is immense. The entire building is immense.

Here's a bird's-eye view of it:

That building is easily many times the size of anything we have built on Earth. That combined with the fact that Star Wars technology far surpasses our own, and you have a building that can hold at least a million beings.

Note how the building dwarfs every other building visible in the Coruscant skyline. Only the nearby port is taller, but nowhere near as large in surface area or volume.

Prove that they would had been there had they not been accused of taking over Naboo.

What is with you and your new line of thinking that lack of proof is proof positive? It’s really getting annoying. The Federation was only there because they were being accused of the invation of a Republic world.

You’re asking me to prove that the don’ have something? I suggest you prove that they have a seat first.

I already did this earlier, and you just asked me to prove a negative. They are referred to as the delegates (or representatives, don't remember specifically) of the Trade Federation, not witnesses or lobbyists or anything else. This indicates they also had voting power and a permanent seat in the Senate. QED.

Ruined most of their shipyards? The Republic has so many shipyards that it’s highly unlikely that the Sith could have caused an major damage to the Republic shipyards in as short a time that the war went on. Unless you can provide some major proof that they caused major disruption to the shipyards, we can assume that they did not and that there would be little disruption to the Repbulic.

So if Ulic's attacks are so insignificant, why is it a dark day for the Republic? Why must it be reported to Coruscant at once? You realize by this point that Ulic had stolen "300 of the Republic's newest warships," right?

By the way, your assertion that the Republic had so many shipyards that Ulic's raids did little damage is completely unfounded. We know precisely dick about the Republic's production capabilities as of TSW.

Ten stars? How is that such a big deal out of mutiple hundred thousand Republic? Look at it this way. The Republic is huge, that many stars is less then a tenth of a percent of what they have.

Except that these ten stars represented a star system around which are planets, among them Ossus, the Jedi world.

Even an attack on Coruscant would not require all of the Senators to meet at Coruscant. If anything many Senators would try and get the hell out of there.

No, bullshit. Prove up. The seats are full and they believed the leadership of the attackers to be captured. What reason is there to be scared if the threat is gone?

Look at the freakin scene. There is no way that it could hold a million people, nor is there any need for it too.

See point 8.

ook at the ROTS scenes with the Senate. There are FAR less then 10,000 pods in there. You can’t argue against it, there is no way that there were a million people in the Senate Chamber.

See point 8.

Look at the seen. It’s not subjective, it can be quantified. There are less then ten thousand pods in the room. There are less then ten thousand pods in there. Even if there were ten people per pod, that’s still only a hundred thousand people. ONE TENTH of the number you keep wrongly assuming to be true.

See point 8.

Keep rubbing the fact that I only have one comic in my face an I might remind you that you haven’t read jack about the NJO guys, which is who you are debating against.

Keep making that laughable assertion and I'll point out that you've offered up precisely dick as to how even DN Luke could survive an encounter with a living Exar Kun.

Based off of your subjective opinion, Exar toyed with Vodo the entire time. That’s not proof.

No, based off the scans Kun was toying with Vodo the entire time, then got serious at the end, and tooled him.

He didn’t control the men of the Chimera for the five day journey to Coruscant because of what else he would need to do. He would have needed to bring dozens of other support ships with him and he would have needed to control hundreds of thousands of minds in battle conditions. That’s why he didn’t do it.

And this changes what, exactly?

I’ve already addressed the issue on Joruus being mad. If you had read the Thrawn books you would know that his madness comes and goes randomly. If Joruus was mad at the time that he took over the Chimera, then no, he presumably would not have had the best judgment. The point remains however that Joruus, while mad, was able to focus to the level necessary to control 37,000 minds. When sane again his level on concentration would rise considerably.

If Joruus was sane at the time, then he really did believe that he could control the 37,000 people on board the Chimera for the five day journey to Coruscant and that he realized that he couldn’t control the hundreds of thousands it would take to defeat Coruscant for five days on top of controlling those men in battle conditions. You can’t manipulate this to serve your goals, IKC.

And if you had turned on your brain while reading the Thrawn books you would realize that Joruus was mad throughout the entirety of the trilogy and that his ability to hide it diminished at times.

And the point remains that the insane Joruus only thought he had the ability to control 37,000 minds but he didn't even try to do it. Ergo, this proves nothing.

If Joruus had done the feat, then it would become just another feat. The fact that Joruus, a Jedi Master believed he could do it more or less means that he would have a VERY high chance of success.

If Joruus had done the feat you would have proved something. The fact that Joruus, an insane Dark Jedi, thought he could do it more or less means precisely dick because of both his very questionable judgment and the fact that he didn't even try to do it.

Exar controlled many beings for a far shorter period of time then Joruus, a Jedi Master, believed that he could have. Whether or not Joruus could have done battle while controlling the Chimera means nothing as no one is arguing that Joruus is on the same level as Exar, just that Exar is not on a level of his own as Joruus believed that he had the ability to do a feat that rivals what Exar did.

Consistency anyone?

"Joruus can't rival Exar, but he rivals Exar!"

No, bullshit. Exar controlled more beings with less effort that Joruus ever showed. Scale and ease makes his feat exponentially more impressive than Joruus' non-attempted feat.

See point #1.

The ease with which Exar froze them is of no consequence on it’s own in relation to Exar being able to fully control them. You need to prove a positive first, or else no one will really care jack about what Exar could possibly have done.

See point 1. He controlled them "perfectly" according to the omnisicent narrator. He did so with such ease that he was able to walk around, use the Chancellor as a puppet, and pwn an ancient Jedi master while keeping his hold on them.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

IKC you still haven't proven that Exar controlled the Senators or that there were a million people ther.

BTW just because I know you will never accept it

The senate is Frozen... Not controlled, Frozen.

And the senate chambers simply can not house a million beings simple as that.

Damn, IKC... That was deep.

Thank you for proving your point fishy, my eyes hurt from reading IKC's book.

Fishy hasn't effectively DISPROVED that there's a million people there, and the building is clearly large enough for that many people.

And IKC pointed out something that Fishy seems to be glossing over: Kun's the only person to show control on this scale, aside from Sadow. Joruus actually didn't do it.

Joruus controlled the ships and the crew... I'd say he "did it"/

No, actually he used battle meditation, which even Bastila can do. Battle meditation in itself isn't control. And Joruus only controlled the clones by controlling the clone "parents".

Therefore, Joruss <<<<<< Exar Kun on terms of actual control.

Battle Meditation is boosting the Morale of your troops while destroying the Morale of the opposition. This has nothing to do with battle morale wesker..

...

Did you even read my post?

Nope...Luke Skywalker wallpaper.

You should log off so you can be alone with that thing.

Too late.