Hey IKC take a look at http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWCanon2.html..
Good read
Hey IKC take a look at http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWCanon2.html..
Good read
Eh, that site isn't all that great.
I'll get to the larger post when I get the chance. I'm going to bed soon and will be gone until friday probaly.
Originally posted by IKC
You're missing the point, the people I talk about at least have a premise to go on: in other words, they are shown to have had probable access to the information. To claim that Luke knows Force Storm is ludicrous, however: for one, it is a Dark Side attack, and secondly it is a Sith technique that Palpatine certainly didn't teach him.
1. Luke has been shown to use the Darkside. Oh, that's right, you didn't know about the Unifying Force concept because you don't know jack about the NJO.
2. There are other ways that he could have learned this technique. He has access to great amounts of knowledge from places such as Ossus and holocrons that he got from time to time. Luke also had access to the Emperor's storehouse on Wayland for a time, I don't know if he got anything out of there though, but it's possible. And how do you know Palaptine didn't teach it to him. He appears to have learned some things from Palpatine during DE and since lack of proof isn't proof of absence, Luke might just know it. I'm not saying he does, but it's possible.
Originally posted by IKC
However, the Storm is described as a weapon of the Ancient Sith. So, since absence of proof is not proof of absence, it's safe to assume that people like Naga Sadow or Marka Ragnos may know how to do it.
That's flawed logic. It's a major oversimplification. By the same logic I could say that ROTJ Luke knows Shii Cho because Shii Cho is described as being known by the Jedi. Since absence of proof is not proof of absence, it's safe to assume that ROTJ Luke knows Shii Cho.
I could also say that all Jedi can make a lightsaber, because making a lightsaber is something that Jedi can do. Just because some Jedi can make a lightsaber is not proof that all Jedi can make lightsabers. The same is true Exar Kun. Just because Exar could freeze them doesn't mean that he could have made them do more complicated things as well. Proof is required for that and such proof has not been shown.
Bad logic, IKC.
Saying Joruus was insane while controlling the Chimera is a double edged sword.If we assume that Joruus was insane while controlling the people on the Chimera, the fact that Joruus was able to focus to the level needed to control 37,000 people while insane speaks a lot for him. If he wasn't insane at the time, which is perfectly possible since his insanity came and went from time to time, then it is perfectly possible that a sane Jedi Master really believed he could control 37,000 people for five days. Either way it doesn't help you.
1. Luke has been shown to use the Darkside. Oh, that's right, you didn't know about the Unifying Force concept because you don't know jack about the NJO.
And here you were going on at DTF about how Luke is moving away from that concept by DN. And then there's the question: How advanced are his dark side techniques? Who did he learn them from? Etc.
2. There are other ways that he could have learned this technique. He has access to great amounts of knowledge from places such as Ossus and holocrons that he got from time to time. Luke also had access to the Emperor's storehouse on Wayland for a time, I don't know if he got anything out of there though, but it's possible. And how do you know Palaptine didn't teach it to him. He appears to have learned some things from Palpatine during DE and since lack of proof isn't proof of absence, Luke might just know it. I'm not saying he does, but it's possible.
Uh, dude. For one, Ossus is a Jedi stronghold. It's not going to have knowledge of advanced techniques of the Sith. Secondly, when did Luke ever get a Sith holocron?
The Emperor's storehouse on Wayland wasn't said to carry knowledge on Force techniques. Indeed, as I remember all it had was Joruus, the Spaarti cloning cylinders, and various datachips (one of which was The Hand of Thrawn).
And I can assume that Luke doesn't know the Force Storm because he could merely have tried to summon one against Palpatine by the end of DE. What, specifically, did he learn from Palpatine, hm? I'm not sure Palpatine did much teaching. He certainly didn't seem to bother teaching Anakin anything.
That's flawed logic. It's a major oversimplification. By the same logic I could say that ROTJ Luke knows Shii Cho because Shii Cho is described as being known by the Jedi. Since absence of proof is not proof of absence, it's safe to assume that ROTJ Luke knows Shii Cho.
Except ROTJ Luke could hardly be called a Jedi, and it would be more accurate to say that Jedi of the PT and before knew Shii Cho. Ergo, Luke wouldn't apply.
It's not an oversimplification, the force storm was described as being derived from the Sith of old. Ergo, it is not an oversimplified assumption to say that the strongest of that era know the technique, because absence of proof is not proof of absence.
I could also say that all Jedi can make a lightsaber, because making a lightsaber is something that Jedi can do.
You should be more accurate and say that Jedi who are taught how to make a lightsaber and have access to the proper material can make a lightsaber. Your examples are oversimplified, the concept of absence of proof is not proof of absence isn't.
Just because Exar could freeze them doesn't mean that he could have made them do more complicated things as well. Proof is required for that and such proof has not been shown.
Been reading much?
Well, he did manipulate the Senate. That, combined with the apparent ease with which he performed it, is my premise behind saying that he could have done other things and just because he didn't doesn't mean he couldn't.
QED.
It still makes no sense, if he could actually control all of them to do something then he would have.
Why would he? It's clear from his actions in the Senate (and his speech) that he doesn't care what they do, that they're irrelevant to his plans.
But then again if you're using your logic that there were 1 million people there, nobody is strong enough to control that many minds, not with all the amulets..
That's not necessarily accurate. It's entirely possible for him to do so, given we have instances with other Sith Lords doing similarly complicated things (i.e. Sadow's tangible illusion armies).
And again, the amulet is never shown to have anything to do with his actions.
He doesn't control them what Sadow does is far more impressive, he creates them.
About them, forced to watch and being frozen are the same thing. You are frozen you are forced to stand there and watch unable to move. And in order to control the chancelor he has to move there and he puts his hand on the chancelor his head. I see no real reason to assume he controlled them when he has shown nothing of that sort, he froze them. Still impressive but very different.
How the hell is that similary complicated?
He had to create them, make them fight control each of there movements they are illusions so real that they are able to destroy buildings and kill people. They are shot down and killed when hit, thats far more difficult then to stop people from moving and then there is the difference Sadow created a huge ass fleet, Exar froze a couple of dozens of thousands of people... Huge difference there too.
Originally posted by IKC
Uh, Fishy, they're similarly complicated inasmuch as each Dark Lord was controlling thousands upon thousands (or, rather, millions) of different entities at once. I didn't think this was a difficult concept.
Only real difference is Exar froze them, there is no real evidence to suggest he controlled them in any way. Forced them to watch, he would have forced them to watch if they were frozen. And he had to walk up to the chancelor and place his hand on him to make him say anything.
Exar didn't create them and there weren't millions of them
Exar didn't constantly need to spend meditating and changing everything to make sure it seemed real.
Exar Kun used a spell that could have possibly just been cast and then let alone to work for a period of time.
Sadow went into deep meditation when he used his meditation to create entire army's so realistic that people actually thought they were real and actually fought them and died against them. There is absolutely no reason to assume that what Kun did can ever even compare.
To create army's with an illusion is going to be far harder, and there is absolutely no evidence to even suggest that freezing people is just as hard and requires just as much skill.
The free will of non sensitive's?
Going to insinuate that they're not as hard to freeze when there's no evidence for it?
Only real difference is Exar froze them, there is no real evidence to suggest he controlled them in any way. Forced them to watch, he would have forced them to watch if they were frozen. And he had to walk up to the chancelor and place his hand on him to make him say anything.
Uh, no evidence except for the omniscient narrator stating that he forced them to watch and not react, right? That's control, Fishy.
And he had to walk up to him? Bullshit. Prove that. You have no proof that he could not merely have forced the Chancellor to say anything from further away - Kun's penchant for the theatric doesn't mean he couldn't have accomplished his goal any other way.
Exar didn't create them and there weren't millions of them
But he did control them and 1 million is a safe low number.
Exar didn't constantly need to spend meditating and changing everything to make sure it seemed real.
Indeed, he performed his feat with relative ease. That's probably because creating tangible illusions is more difficult, I'll grant. But they are comparable inasmuch as their complexity is concerned.
Exar Kun used a spell that could have possibly just been cast and then let alone to work for a period of time.
Except you have no proof of that and it runs contrary to our ideas of how the Force works - that is, the person using it has to maintain the power for it to continue. You didn't see Sidious, for example, toss a bolt of lightning and then just sit back and watch it hit someone.
Sadow went into deep meditation when he used his meditation to create entire army's so realistic that people actually thought they were real and actually fought them and died against them. There is absolutely no reason to assume that what Kun did can ever even compare.
But inasmuch as Kun had to control the will of at least one million sentients and he did so without much apparent strain. They are similar in complexity, not difficulty.
Agreed, btw I didn't know Luke did it with 1 ship but it is logical to assume that if he can do it with 1 ship he can do it with many more. He wasn't at war so he didn't need an army.
You can't automatically assume that, you need a premise to go on. If we knew that Luke did that effortlessly then yes, we can assume he could do more at the same time. However, neither of us knows what kind of strain it put on him.
