And do you have a logical reason to assume he could, when the control argument you made is wrong. Dude you love Exar I can understand that, but you are just not using logic right now. You are ignoring the fact that we see on screen on panel evidence that he goes there and then manipulates the Chancelor with his hand on the Chancelor his head and the amulet seems to be doing some of the work. Thats what we know.
I'm not using logic? Look in the mirror.
Yes, my control argument is wrong. Nevermind your lack of proof, it's just wrong! All the senators were already looking at what Kun wanted them to look at! By God, you have a bug up your ass to make Kun appear not as uber as he really is!
The amulet doesn't "seem" to be doing anything but glowing. You've failed to prove that Exar Kun needed to walk up to the Chancellor to control him - indeed, the opposite is true given how he was able to manipulate all the other Senate members and that there's nothing to indicate that he was otherwise unable to control the Chancellor anywhere in the scans.
You are assuming that he can do it without, without on screen evidence, without the narrator saying anything of that matter. Without any reason for it, prove up. That is your job now. Its not your job to prove that Revan can't blow up stars, you would never succeed if I claim he can. It would be my job to prove up that he could.
Uh, Fishy, because the narrator says jack shit, that means we can assume the possiblity that Kun would be able to perform the action without walking up to him. This is a situation much like Sadow's meditation sphere: you cannot prove that he needed the sphere to perform his action just as you can't prove that Kun needed to walk up there to perform his. There is nothing to indicate that.
And proving a negative or a possitive can easily be changed by just changed are to aren't or is to isn't. Prove up or admit to the fact that he couldn't, when there is no reasom to assume that he could.
No, quibbling in semantics isn't the way you turn a debate around. We know that he could perform action X. It is your job to prove that he needed to do Y in order to perform action X. It is not my job to prove that he didn't (which would be proving a negative) need to do Y to perform action X.
I'm asking you to prove a positive. I asked you to provide proof that Exar could have done the manipulation from a far distance. And you can't do this because their is nothing indicating that Kun can do it from a greater distance so this is your assumption and you have no proof for it.
No, you're asking me to prove a negative. As I just stated to Fishy:
We know that he could perform action X. It is your job to prove that he needed to do Y in order to perform action X. It is not my job to prove that he didn't (which would be proving a negative) need to do Y to perform action X.
It's nice what you know. I wonder why Kun keeps covering on Ossus or why he even gets attacked if all he has to do was snapping his fingers to freeze any opposition. What we know is, that Sith magic was a ritualized form of Dark Side use - ever seen "blink-of-an-eye-rituals" going on somewhere ? Because I didn't...
What the hell are you talking about, here?
What did Kun do on Ossus? Who was he covering?
We do not know that Sith magic is ritualized. The onus is on you to prove that. The opposite would seem true given the fact that Aleema fries a guy with a quick jolt of said magic.
Anderson tells us that Luke could have withstand the attack from Kun alone even at this point. And yes...Kun was a half-mad and 4000 year old spirit but still far away from being helpless.
Quotes? He was still a weakened, half-mad, 4000 year old spirit that could barely talk.
The point is that this is Kun vs DE Sidious and NJO Luke at once.
Yes.
Can Luke keep Kun busy until Sidious can unleash a force storm ? Possibly.
What's he going to keep him busy with? What's he going to keep him busy with that'll keep Kun from raising a hand and blowing Sidious away with one of his gauntlets?
Can Kun take out force users of that calibre with blasts from his amulets ? This can be argued.
Not very effectively, given that there's no known occurance of them striking a Force user and the only people that should know how to defend against it are the Ancient Sith. Neither Skywalker nor Sidious are members of the Ancient Sith.
So to counter, can Sidious take out Kun with a Force Storm when it only took a weaker Skywalker, an untrained Leia, and a still-developing infant to push it back on him?
You can look at it like you want but this would surely be no easy thing for Kun that will be over in the matter of seconds.
I beg to differ. Skywalker will last a respectable amount of time, but Sidious will go down hard, and no known incarnation of Luke can take Kun down alone.
IKC i'm not even going to argue with you anymore about this. Until you prove the following things
Revan didn't slaughter everybody in the Sith base on Taris
Revan didn't slaughter everybody in the Sith base on Manaan
Revan didn't slaughter around 200 Dark Jedi on the Star Forge or on the Leviathan
Revan didn't destroy two Terentak with his lightsaber
Revan's force storm didn't destroy Rakatan and Rancors
Revan didn't eat apple pie for lunch the day before Malak shot his ship down.
Seriously you are asking us to prove that he couldn't do something when we never see him do it. Logical fallacy at its finest as you like to put it.
Originally posted by IKC
No, you're asking me to prove a negative. As I just stated to Fishy:We know that he could perform action X. It is your job to prove that he needed to do Y in order to perform action X. It is not my job to prove that he didn't (which would be proving a negative) need to do Y to perform action X.
No...we know that he can perfom action X while being close to the target. This is like saying that Obi-Wan could force push Grievous into the air while Grievous is on Utapau and Obi-Wan is on Coruscant because we saw that Obi-Wan can force push Grievous when standing right in front of him. That's just BS, IKC and you should see that.
We do not know that Sith magic is ritualized. The onus is on you to prove that. The opposite would seem true given the fact that Aleema fries a guy with a quick jolt of said magic.
You should learn to distinquish between different forms of force use. We are talking about a manipulating a massive number of living beings and there is no single situation in the entire EU where this was done easily or effortless which indicates that this was something that required a ritualized form of force user or massive amounts of concentration. As we don't see Kun concentrating much the other conclusion would be that he used a ritual which effect was that the people in the senate where frozen.
Otherwise I don't see the point why Kun wouldn't use the same stuff in any situation (freeze Odan Urr on Ossus / use it against the Jedi over Yavin 4) or in the final confrontation with Luke's students in the Jedi Academy when he was a spirit.
Quotes? He was still a weakened, half-mad, 4000 year old spirit that could barely talk.
Go and read the passage yourself when Luke gets attacked by Exar Kun and Kyp Durron in the Jedi Academy Trilogy by Anderson. I can't give you actual quotes sind I don't have the english version of the book.
What's he going to keep him busy with? What's he going to keep him busy with that'll keep Kun from raising a hand and blowing Sidious away with one of his gauntlets?
What makes you think that Kun can simply blow away Sidious with his gauntlets, eh ? Have you ever seen a Sith using said technology against another Sith because I didn't. Then what makes you sure that another Sith can't block the effect or simply dodge it (force speed).
If you just didn't notice it - both situations in which Kun used his amulet against living force users (Odan and Sylvar) didn't result in an instakill and I hope you won't compare 1000 year old Odan (already weakened through age) or relative weak Sylvar to NJO Luke or DE Sidious.
Not very effectively, given that there's no known occurance of them striking a Force user and the only people that should know how to defend against it are the Ancient Sith. Neither Skywalker nor Sidious are members of the Ancient Sith.
I love how you simply "forget" that Sidious obviously had access to ancient Sith lore and so had Luke (through Sidious in DE). And is Sadow the better Sith alchemist compared to Ragnos now or are NJO Luke and DE Sidious weakling compared to Kyle Katarn - because obviously Katarn can survive a blast from Ragnos sceptre but Luke and Sidious shouldn't be able to take a blast from Sadow's gauntlets (when said blast was survived by Sylvar) ?
I wonder how Kun will "resist" Luke's "emerald sparks disable ability" without knowing it...
So to counter, can Sidious take out Kun with a Force Storm when it only took a weaker Skywalker, an untrained Leia, and a still-developing infant to push it back on him?
Oh year it "only" took the combined potential of Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin which is - as far as I remember - the greatest mass of combined force potential being used on a single target in the entire EU to stop DE Sidious force storm. I'm sure Kun alone easily tops the combined potential of Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin.
I beg to differ. Skywalker will last a respectable amount of time, but Sidious will go down hard, and no known incarnation of Luke can take Kun down alone.
I still wonder how Exar is going to kill Sidious while having to fight Luke at the same time or vice versa.
Originally posted by Fishy
IKC i'm not even going to argue with you anymore about this. Until you prove the following thingsRevan didn't slaughter everybody in the Sith base on Taris
Revan didn't slaughter everybody in the Sith base on Manaan
Revan didn't slaughter around 200 Dark Jedi on the Star Forge or on the Leviathan
Revan didn't destroy two Terentak with his lightsaber
Revan's force storm didn't destroy Rakatan and Rancors
Revan didn't eat apple pie for lunch the day before Malak shot his ship down.Seriously you are asking us to prove that he couldn't do something when we never see him do it. Logical fallacy at its finest as you like to put it.
For the record, I don't really think Kun has this in the bag, but I'd like to point out that Fishy is asking IKC here to disprove things that can't be falsified. This would be like saying "God exists."
"No, he doesn't."
"Prove me wrong".
Whosoever makes the assertion that X did Y must provide the evidence and reasoning behind it. If we ran around accepting things just because they could not be disproved I could say that I know a man on the farthest moon of Jupiter and he survives in the atmosphere there because he is specially made and none of you can actually disprove that because of how I have constructed the statement (evidence gathering limitations aside, of course. We can't actually go to said moon to disprove this, nor can we conduct a clean sweep of the moon to disprove either.)
Fishy, the default stance for any debate is skepticism on any unusual or out of the blue claims. I notice that you are oh so quick to be skeptical and try to discredit Kun's accomplishments and powers, but when it comes to Revan we have to accept gameplay points and mechanics to boost him up in lieu of actual canonical proof. That... is logical fallacy.
Btw, nice to see you again, Nai. Be sure to visit EoD.
Originally posted by w00t2112
Kun > NJO Luke (my opinion) however i do believe DN Luke is above Kun, given that Kun had a chance to reach the age and his full potential he would surpass Luke, but however as he isnt, we cannot say Kun is more powerful without it having being treated as an opinion and/or speculation
So effectively you're saying "we can not say Kun is more powerful than Luke because of age."
Wow, awesome logic 🙄.
No...we know that he can perfom action X while being close to the target. This is like saying that Obi-Wan could force push Grievous into the air while Grievous is on Utapau and Obi-Wan is on Coruscant because we saw that Obi-Wan can force push Grievous when standing right in front of him. That's just BS, IKC and you should see that.
And we also know he can perform action Y while outside the room. Indeed, Kun's control of the Force is so masterful that he was able to open Ulic Qel-Droma's chains (Ulic was temporarily blind to the Force at the time) before the doors of the senate ever opened.
Proof? Here:
Wheras action Y is his control over the multitude of Senators and their guards and other spectators, it is logically sound to assume that Kun could have performed X (controlling the Chancellor) from any position in that massive room, even outside it.
You should learn to distinquish between different forms of force use. We are talking about a manipulating a massive number of living beings and there is no single situation in the entire EU where this was done easily or effortless which indicates that this was something that required a ritualized form of force user or massive amounts of concentration. As we don't see Kun concentrating much the other conclusion would be that he used a ritual which effect was that the people in the senate where frozen.
Wrong. You have nothing to base this ritual assumption on, Nai. There is no evidence on-panel, in dialogue, narration, or anywhere else. Ergo, until you provide proof to that point, it is proper to assume that Kun was actively holding the Senators in check and that he did so with ease.
By the way, absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because nobody else did what Kun did with such ease doesn't mean, therefore, that Kun can't. But you people seem to have a problem accepting Kun's power as it is shown so you come up with these theories (rituals?) that have no basis in evidence.
Otherwise I don't see the point why Kun wouldn't use the same stuff in any situation (freeze Odan Urr on Ossus / use it against the Jedi over Yavin 4) or in the final confrontation with Luke's students in the Jedi Academy when he was a spirit.
So because he didn't use X in situation Y, that means he can't? Kun also could have pulled a lightsaber out and spun around like a ballerina, but he didn't. Does that mean he can't?
He instakilled Odan-Urr, so I don't know why you think controlling him would have been more beneficial to Kun.
All of the Jedi in the galaxy were above Yavin IV. Kun's power is titanic, but not even Ragnos has the power to do anything significant to such a force.
And in the "final confrontation" between Luke and his students it was shown that he was a weakened, 4000 year old, half-mad spirit.
Go and read the passage yourself when Luke gets attacked by Exar Kun and Kyp Durron in the Jedi Academy Trilogy by Anderson. I can't give you actual quotes sind I don't have the english version of the book.
How is Kun's performance as a weakened, half mad, 4000 year old spirit relevant to this discussion?
What makes you think that Kun can simply blow away Sidious with his gauntlets, eh ? Have you ever seen a Sith using said technology against another Sith because I didn't. Then what makes you sure that another Sith can't block the effect or simply dodge it (force speed).
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Sidious hardly counts as a person who would have the knowledge or tools that would allow him to be able to block said blasts. Only the Ancient Sith could be said to have that ability, and that's an unsupported assumption.
And dodging? I hope he likes to run a lot, because as shown on panel, Kun can blast repeatedly with no apparent recharge time. That, and he has another amulet on the right hand that he didn't have when he fought the sith wyrm.
If you just didn't notice it - both situations in which Kun used his amulet against living force users (Odan and Sylvar) didn't result in an instakill and I hope you won't compare 1000 year old Odan (already weakened through age) or relative weak Sylvar to NJO Luke or DE Sidious.
Uh, what? When did Kun use the amulet on either of those two?
You have no proof of this. Kun merely pushed Sylvar and instakilled Odan. So what's your point here?
Not to mention that you have no proof that Odan was weakened through age, either. That's a half-assed assumption.
I love how you simply "forget" that Sidious obviously had access to ancient Sith lore and so had Luke (through Sidious in DE). And is Sadow the better Sith alchemist compared to Ragnos now or are NJO Luke and DE Sidious weakling compared to Kyle Katarn - because obviously Katarn can survive a blast from Ragnos sceptre but Luke and Sidious shouldn't be able to take a blast from Sadow's gauntlets (when said blast was survived by Sylvar) ?
I love how you simply forget that both of them merely had access to crumbs in comparison to what the Ancient Sith lore was during the Golden Age. Hell, they had nothing even in comparison to what Kun gathered.
Yeah, Katarn survived a blast from Ragnos' scepter, wielded by a weakling and an entirely different artifact from Kun's amulets.
And Sylvar was never hit by a blast from Kun, so how would she have survived it? Are we making things up again?
I wonder how Kun will "resist" Luke's "emerald sparks disable ability" without knowing it...
I wonder how Luke will "resist" Kun's amulet blasts or instakill attack, then.
Oh year it "only" took the combined potential of Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin which is - as far as I remember - the greatest mass of combined force potential being used on a single target in the entire EU to stop DE Sidious force storm. I'm sure Kun alone easily tops the combined potential of Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin.
As far as you remember? You don't remember very well then.
I'd say that's a greater combination of Force potential than any three people.
And for all you know, Kun does top their potential. Or for all you know, Ragnos doesn't. Want to get into pointless hypotheticals again?
I still wonder how Exar is going to kill Sidious while having to fight Luke at the same time or vice versa.
Mostly because it seems to take no time at all for Kun to fire off his blasts. That and being the only person in the fight to know Sith magic certainly helps.
Originally posted by Wesker
For the record, I don't really think Kun has this in the bag, but I'd like to point out that Fishy is asking IKC here to disprove things that can't be [b]falsified. This would be like saying "God exists.""No, he doesn't."
"Prove me wrong".
Whosoever makes the assertion that X did Y must provide the evidence and reasoning behind it. If we ran around accepting things just because they could not be disproved I could say that I know a man on the farthest moon of Jupiter and he survives in the atmosphere there because he is specially made and none of you can actually disprove that because of how I have constructed the statement (evidence gathering limitations aside, of course. We can't actually go to said moon to disprove this, nor can we conduct a clean sweep of the moon to disprove either.)
Fishy, the default stance for any debate is skepticism on any unusual or out of the blue claims. I notice that you are oh so quick to be skeptical and try to discredit Kun's accomplishments and powers, but when it comes to Revan we have to accept gameplay points and mechanics to boost him up in lieu of actual canonical proof. That... is logical fallacy.
Btw, nice to see you again, Nai. Be sure to visit EoD. [/B]
Actually Janus the reason i'm saying that is because IKC is asking me to prove that couldn't Kun control the chancelor from a distance, when we have no prove he could.
Its a sucky debating technique, thats why I am asking him to prove that Revan didn't do that, or actually i'm just trying to show him that what he's doing is wrong and that he is the one that needs to prove up.
Originally posted by Fishy
Actually Janus the reason i'm saying that is because IKC is asking me to prove that couldn't Kun control the chancelor from a distance, when we have no prove he could.Its a sucky debating technique, thats why I am asking him to prove that Revan didn't do that, or actually i'm just trying to show him that what he's doing is wrong and that he is the one that needs to prove up.
Fair enough. I didn't read all the previous posts because I didn't have the patience last night, but I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of what a bad debating tactic that is, regardless of who uses it.
Originally posted by tdtd
What makes you think DE Sidious doesn't know Sith Magic? In fact it's been stated that DE Sidious learned ancient Sith magic on Byss and Korriban so your statement is false.
It's stated nowhere that he learned Sith magic. The very concept of Sith magic didn't even exist when DE was written, dude.
Actually Janus the reason i'm saying that is because IKC is asking me to prove that couldn't Kun control the chancelor from a distance, when we have no prove he could.
Wrong, you are asking me to prove that Kun didn't need to be near the Chancellor to control him. That's asking me to prove a negative. You prove the positive.
Originally posted by IKC
And we also know he can perform action Y while outside the room. Indeed, Kun's control of the Force is so masterful that he was able to open Ulic Qel-Droma's chains (Ulic was temporarily blind to the Force at the time) before the doors of the senate ever opened.Wheras action Y is his control over the multitude of Senators and their guards and other spectators, it is logically sound to assume that Kun could have performed X (controlling the Chancellor) from any position in that massive room, even outside it.
Again you are using logical fallacies as proof. So because he can perfom action Y (unlocking Ulic's chains) from a certain range he can automatically perform action X (controlling the Chancelor) from the same range ? What BS is that, IKC ? Would you agree that controlling millions of people at once or controlling a single person takes a little more effort than simple telekinesis ? The two actions aren't even compareable.
Wrong. You have nothing to base this ritual assumption on, Nai. There is no evidence on-panel, in dialogue, narration, or anywhere else. Ergo, until you provide proof to that point, it is proper to assume that Kun was actively holding the Senators in check and that he did so with ease.
Sith magic was always ritualized form of force use. Go and check every source about Sith history and it will tell you that the Sith used rituals. So I don't see how "Sith magic" in this case suddenly developed into instant force use.
And the point alone that nobody could control such an amount of beings without preperation time or massive concentration alone is reason enough to assume that Kun needed either a ritual ("spellcasting" - Sith magic) or massive amounts of concentration to keep that control up. Since he doesn't display the second that points to the first.
By the way, absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because nobody else did what Kun did with such ease doesn't mean, therefore, that Kun can't. But you people seem to have a problem accepting Kun's power as it is shown so you come up with these theories (rituals?) that have no basis in evidence.
With this logic you can assume everything and nobody can say something against it. Yoda is the most powerful being ever because he could destroy planets with a snap of his fingers ? You don't believe me ? Well...absence of proof is not proof of absence so unless you can't provide proof that Yoda can't tear down planets (which is impossible) I can assume that he has that ability. Do you see how stupid that is ?
So because he didn't use X in situation Y, that means he can't? Kun also could have pulled a lightsaber out and spun around like a ballerina, but he didn't. Does that mean he can't?
Again: You have to provide proof that he can and not vice versa.
He instakilled Odan-Urr, so I don't know why you think controlling him would have been more beneficial to Kun.
Oh he "instakilled" Odan-Urr ? That's why Odan is still talking after Kun did hit him ? Yeah, right. So because Kun was able to kill a 1000-year-old Jedi Master, a 400 year old spirit and could throw Sylvar around like a ragdoll he can suddenly instakill people like NJO Luke or Sidious ?
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Sidious hardly counts as a person who would have the knowledge or tools that would allow him to be able to block said blasts. Only the Ancient Sith could be said to have that ability, and that's an unsupported assumption.
Bah...and absence of proof is no proof either. And this seems to be the way it works for you when it comes to Kun's power. He never has shown the ability to kill people in the hight of their power with blasts from his amulets so unless you can proof that he can do that the facts show that he can't meaning he simply can't destroy Sidious with a single blast of his amulet.
And apart from this Sidious had nearly a century to gather knowledge and he obviously visited Korriban and Ziost - and we have seen him talking to the Ancient Sith. And you are talking about simple force defence here. How does that require to be an ancient Sith nowadays. So Yoda was a Sith obviously, because he could block Sith lightning ?
And dodging? I hope he likes to run a lot, because as shown on panel, Kun can blast repeatedly with no apparent recharge time. That, and he has another amulet on the right hand that he didn't have when he fought the sith wyrm.
And I hope that blasts are faster than laser bolts since we have seen a Padawan running away with force speed from blasterfire in TPM. And of course Kun will keep firing on Sidious while having to fight Luke and both will not even think about attacking Kun on melee range and thereby avoiding fire from the amulets.
Uh, what? When did Kun use the amulet on either of those two?You have no proof of this. Kun merely pushed Sylvar and instakilled Odan. So what's your point here?
Yeah...the glowing of the amulet when he kills Odan obviously is nothing, same when he throws Sylvar around. That's just his personal force power of course.
Not to mention that you have no proof that Odan was weakened through age, either. That's a half-assed assumption.
So I guess Odans "I am old...evil is loose in the galaxy... and I cannot stop it" simply means that Kun was just so over powerful and that's why Odan emphasizes that he is old.
I love how you simply forget that both of them merely had access to crumbs in comparison to what the Ancient Sith lore was during the Golden Age. Hell, they had nothing even in comparison to what Kun gathered.
I guess 25,000 years of holocrons, scrolls and other stuff stored in the Jedi temple and plundered by Sidious - clearly including Sith holocrons as they are mentioned on several ocassions - should include quite some knowledge about the Dark Side. Of course it's nothing compared to what Kun had but I don't see where Kun's superior knowledge (Sith magic, Sith alchemy) would be of any help here.
I wonder how Luke will "resist" Kun's amulet blasts or instakill attack, then.
I wonder how Luke will resist non-existant instakill attacks too...
And for all you know, Kun does top their potential. Or for all you know, Ragnos doesn't. Want to get into pointless hypotheticals again?
It was you who stated that Kun tops their potential, not me.
Mostly because it seems to take no time at all for Kun to fire off his blasts. That and being the only person in the fight to know Sith magic certainly helps. [/B]
Of course Sidious, being the Dark Lord of the Sith won't know Sith magic especially when his force storm seems to be exactly that.
And of course he will score 100 % hits on two people who both have demonstrated the ability to move faster than the eye can see. This will of course lead to instant death of Sidious because he gets hit by a weapon we've never seen killing a force user instantly. And you're talking to me about "pointless hypotheticals" when this is what your entire "Kun wins this easily" argument is based on ?
By the way...Kun will get obliterated by Luke or Sidious with a snap of their fingers. They can do that because absense of proof is no proof of absense. 🙄
