"Your thoughts" OR . . . "A smart person's thread!"

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Very competent answers Khan .... with regards to telepathy i see its as more of a supernatural linkage between some form of transcendent 'collective conscience' rather than the manipulation of nerve impulses (IMO this is too complicated to be a practical solution/explanation).

Using what we know about consciousness and observation,its effects on reality due to quantum theory and wave functions (Mind sip and Doctor SKank know what i mean), I theorize that the firing of nerve impulses may be a side effect of the uncertainty principle. What is physically perceived as the firing of action potentials (never impulses) is a quantum side effect of some greater supernatural form of consciousness that we all posses.

In layman's terms maybe the human soul (or something like it) is doing the communicating, and the effects on brain chemistry is a physical side effect.

Agreed .... good explanation my friesnd

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
My time here will definitely be temporary ..... I found out, within the space of a month, that I'm actually quite academic. This was kind of the point of my isolation, although i seriously missed this place.

When did Digi tell everyone ? 🙂

Originally posted by Doctor SKank
Agreed .... good explanation my friesnd

😖hifty:

I agree as well. Grant Morrison made the Phoenix a higher state of consciousness that the hosts were connected to via their Crown chakras.

Yahman! Good to see you again! And if you get in touch with Whirly, send him my regards. BTW, you may wanna check out the "100ton class is stupid" thread as I tried to come up with some kind of strength system for the real heavyweights. Considering you are the champ of the strength system, I'd like to get your opinion on it.
In any event, welcome back!

The Kahn> thanks for the vote of confidence in your earlier post...not feeling any pressure here...sweatdrop

Telepathy...
The research that has been done on esp and pk has been statistically intriguing and seems to highlight common themes, one being that distance and barriers do not affect outcome, ie, physical factors were less a determinant to success than psychological factors (eg, motivation, fatigue). This would suggest a ruling out of any kind of classical-physics explanation, this to include telepathy as an electromagnetic phenomenon.
My 2 cents worth, using my theory of psiconsciousness...
Quite simply: if one is aware of quantum wavefunctions, then one can be aware of an infinite number of outcomes. Say Jane asks Joe to read her mind. Joe (being psiconscious) is able to locate that probability (parallel outcome) where Jane simply told him what she was thinking. But to non-psiconscious Jane (the one who asked the question), this seems like Joe read her mind.
Who saw the movie, "Groundhog Day"? Bill Murray was able to know everything about everyone, not cuz he read their minds, but cuz they told him or he asked, and he was able to keep that info with him.

(Just for the hell of it) Telekinesis...
Say I wanna move my coffee cup closer to me. All the atoms in the cup are vibrating but the cup doesn't move/shake cuz all the random atomic vibrations cancel each other out. But quantum theory says there is the remote probability that all the atoms in the cup will vibrate in the same direction at the same time. Psiconscious Joe invokes that probability; the cup slides over.

Both instances (telepathy and telekinesis) do not involve any classical transfer of energy from point A to point B, hence distance and barriers do not matter. One could conjur up some hypothetical new particle, but this still smacks of a classical physics approach, and IMO, to understand these phenomena, it might be best to really think outside the box, especially since quantum mechanics provides us with such a framework.

The one major drawback to this theory is that is assumes Consciousness is the ultimate ground of being, not Matter. Thus, it is in conflict with an empirical-scientific approach. However, in the world of comics, where all kinds of forces and beings exist, this is not a problem.

Concussive force...
"Concussive" is a term which describes an effect of force/energy rather than a kind/type of energy. A punch to the head, a sonic boom, a particle beam, even a powerful enough laser beam can deliver a "mechanical" (in the physics sense) or "concussive" force.
My guess is, Cyclops (eg) is able to generate some sort of hail of particles (protons? neutrons? mesons?)whose primary interaction with other matter is physical-mechanical, rather than something which is absorbed (and would cause a heating-up effect).

All this, and a quarter, gets me a phone call.
balloon

Originally posted by Mindship
Yahman! Good to see you again! And if you get in touch with Whirly, send him my regards. BTW, you may wanna check out the "100ton class is stupid" thread as I tried to come up with some kind of strength system for the real heavyweights. Considering you are the champ of the strength system, I'd like to get your opinion on it.
In any event, welcome back!

The Kahn> thanks for the vote of confidence in your earlier post...not feeling any pressure here...sweatdrop

Telepathy...
The research that has been done on esp and pk has been statistically intriguing and seems to highlight common themes, one being that distance and barriers do not affect outcome, ie, physical factors were less a determinant to success than psychological factors (eg, motivation, fatigue). This would suggest a ruling out of any kind of classical-physics explanation, this to include telepathy as an electromagnetic phenomenon.
My 2 cents worth, using my theory of psi consciousness...
Quite simply: if one is aware of quantum wave functions, then one can be aware of an infinite number of outcomes. Say Jane asks Joe to read her mind. Joe (being psi conscious) is able to locate that probability (parallel outcome) where Jane simply told him what she was thinking. But to non-psi conscious Jane (the one who asked the question), this seems like Joe read her mind.
Who saw the movie, "Groundhog Day"? Bill Murray was able to know everything about everyone, not cuz he read their minds, but cuz they told him or he asked, and he was able to keep that info with him.

(Just for the hell of it) Telekinesis...
Say I wanna move my coffee cup closer to me. All the atoms in the cup are vibrating but the cup doesn't move/shake cuz all the random atomic vibrations cancel each other out. But quantum theory says there is the remote probability that all the atoms in the cup will vibrate in the same direction at the same time. psi conscious Joe invokes that probability; the cup slides over.

Both instances (telepathy and telekinesis) do not involve any classical transfer of energy from point A to point B, hence distance and barriers do not matter. One could conjur up some hypothetical new particle, but this still smacks of a classical physics approach, and IMO, to understand these phenomena, it might be best to really think outside the box, especially since quantum mechanics provides us with such a framework.

The one major drawback to this theory is that is assumes Consciousness is the ultimate ground of being, not Matter. Thus, it is in conflict with an empirical-scientific approach. However, in the world of comics, where all kinds of forces and beings exist, this is not a problem.

Concussive force...
"Concussive" is a term which describes an effect of force/energy rather than a kind/type of energy. A punch to the head, a sonic boom, a particle beam, even a powerful enough laser beam can deliver a "mechanical" (in the physics sense) or "concussive" force.
My guess is, Cyclops (eg) is able to generate some sort of hail of particles (protons? neutrons? mesons?)whose primary interaction with other matter is physical-mechanical, rather than something which is absorbed (and would cause a heating-up effect).

All this, and a quarter, gets me a phone call.
balloon

'My 2 cents worth, using my theory of psi consciousness...
Quite simply: if one is aware of quantum wave functions, then one can be aware of an infinite number of outcomes. Say Jane asks Joe to read her mind. Joe (being psi conscious) is able to locate that probability (parallel outcome) where Jane simply told him what she was thinking. But to non-psi conscious Jane (the one who asked the question), this seems like Joe read her mind.
Who saw the movie, "Groundhog Day"? Bill Murray was able to know everything about everyone, not cuz he read their minds, but cuz they told him or he asked, and he was able to keep that info with him'

I thought about this a possible explanation previously ..... but it has its weaknesses. For example it doesn't really explain 'remote viewing' premonitions of the distant future, and psychic plane battles. All of these are frequently used powers of psychics, but they cant be explained with quantum theory.

'The one major drawback to this theory is that is assumes Consciousness is the ultimate ground of being, not Matter. Thus, it is in conflict with an empirical-scientific approach. However, in the world of comics, where all kinds of forces and beings exist, this is not a problem.'

This kind of encompasses the thoughts of my previous post. For example to observe the entire infinite wave function of a particle you would have to observed it outside of time and reality. ( This is because as soon as its 'observed' in reality it collapses into a finite 'point particle. )
Observations made outside of reality support my theory of a transcendent form of consciousness (i.e. the human brain outside reality). This is similar to the platonic perspective of body and soul. 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
😖hifty:

I agree as well. Grant Morrison made the Phoenix a higher state of consciousness that the hosts were connected to via their Crown chakras.

Maybe the phoenix is the transcendent consciousness that observed the universe at the beggining of time, and fluctuated it into exitsence ?

Did you edit the Wiki page on 'Omega Mutants' ? 🙂

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Maybe the phoenix is the transcendent consciousness that observed the universe at the beggining of time, and fluctuated it into exitsence ?

Did you edit the Wiki page on 'Omega Mutants' ? 🙂

I never no, but it sounds like someones been reading some KMC debates on the matter. 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I never no, but it sounds like someones been reading some KMC debates on the matter. 😉

Do you think Perfection is Jean ?????? 🙂

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
'My 2 cents worth, using my theory of psi consciousness...
Quite simply: if one is aware of quantum wave functions, then one can be aware of an infinite number of outcomes. Say Jane asks Joe to read her mind. Joe (being psi conscious) is able to locate that probability (parallel outcome) where Jane simply told him what she was thinking. But to non-psi conscious Jane (the one who asked the question), this seems like Joe read her mind.
Who saw the movie, "Groundhog Day"? Bill Murray was able to know everything about everyone, not cuz he read their minds, but cuz they told him or he asked, and he was able to keep that info with him'

I thought about this a possible explanation previously ..... but it has its weaknesses. For example it doesn't really explain 'remote viewing' premonitions of the distant future, and psychic plane battles. All of these are frequently used powers of psychics, but they cant be explained with quantum theory.

'The one major drawback to this theory is that is assumes Consciousness is the ultimate ground of being, not Matter. Thus, it is in conflict with an empirical-scientific approach. However, in the world of comics, where all kinds of forces and beings exist, this is not a problem.'

This kind of encompasses the thoughts of my previous post. For example to observe the entire infinite wave function of a particle you would have to observed it outside of time and reality. ( This is because as soon as its 'observed' in reality it collapses into a finite 'point particle. )
Observations made outside of reality support my theory of a transcendent form of consciousness (i.e. the human brain outside reality). This is similar to the platonic perspective of body and soul. 🙂

Quantum probabilities involve not just space but also time. Thus, awareness of quantum wavefunctions would allow one to access those probabilities which involve distant spatial or temporal coordinates. As such, psiconsciousness (or "parallel-quantum" intelligence) would be considered a form of transcendent consciousness, between our ordinary "single-quantum" awareness and archetypal/Phoenix-level awareness.

Battles purely on psychic planes: two psiconscious entities meeting in that transcendent state and perhaps using destructive interference to cancel out probabilities being invoked.

Psiconsciousness relies not on the Copenhagen interpretation but on Everetts many-worlds hypothesis of quantum mechanics. Admittedly, this many-worlds bit (I think it is currently being called the sum-over-histories theory) is not a fave among physicists, as they see an infinite number of universes to be a very messy affair. Personally, I find it a deceptively, singularly simple concept with mind-boggling implications.

For what it's worth, according to mystical/esoteric schools of thought, archetypal/Phoenix-level consciousness also makes the most sense with a paradigm which sees Consciousness as the ultimate stuff of being.

Originally posted by Mindship
Quantum probabilities involve not just space but also time. Thus, awareness of quantum wave functions would allow one to access those probabilities which involve distant spatial or temporal coordinates. As such, psi consciousness (or "parallel-quantum" intelligence) would be considered a form of transcendent consciousness, between our ordinary "single-quantum" awareness and archetypal/Phoenix-level awareness.

Battles purely on psychic planes: two psiconscious entities meeting in that transcendent state and perhaps using destructive interference to cancel out probabilities being invoked.

psi consciousness relies not on the Copenhagen interpretation but on Everetts many-worlds hypothesis of quantum mechanics. Admittedly, this many-worlds bit (I think it is currently being called the sum-over-histories theory) is not a fave among physicists, as they see an infinite number of universes to be a very messy affair. Personally, I find it a deceptively, singularly simple concept with mind-boggling implications.

For what it's worth, according to mystical/esoteric schools of thought, archetypal/Phoenix-level consciousness also makes the most sense with a paradigm which sees Consciousness as the ultimate stuff of being.

IMO quantum theory is making God and the transcendent necessary for existence. For example for the universe to exist it must be observed. The question is who was around b4 the beginning of time to observe it?

'Quantum probabilities involve not just space but also time. Thus, awareness of quantum wave functions would allow one to access those probabilities which involve distant spatial or temporal coordinates. As such, psi consciousness (or "parallel-quantum" intelligence) would be considered a form of transcendent consciousness, between our ordinary "single-quantum" awareness and archetypal/Phoenix-level awareness.'

Mindy mate can you explain a few things that I'm finding a bit difficult to understand. how does it work over space and time ?

isn't the many worlds theory a necessity for it to work ?

If one could tunnel matter from one reality to another would it violating the laws of matter and energy ?(i.e. you cannot create or destroy matter)

Originally posted by Doctor SKank
IMO quantum theory is making God and the transcendent necessary for existence. For example for the universe to exist it must be observed. The question is who was around b4 the beginning of time to observe it?

'Quantum probabilities involve not just space but also time. Thus, awareness of quantum wave functions would allow one to access those probabilities which involve distant spatial or temporal coordinates. As such, psi consciousness (or "parallel-quantum" intelligence) would be considered a form of transcendent consciousness, between our ordinary "single-quantum" awareness and archetypal/Phoenix-level awareness.'

Mindy mate can you explain a few things that I'm finding a bit difficult to understand. how does it work over space and time ?

isn't the many worlds theory a necessity for it to work ?

If one could tunnel matter from one reality to another would it violating the laws of matter and energy ?(i.e. you cannot create or destroy matter)

The "implicate order" (to use David Bohm's term for the quantum deep underlying our familiar Newtonian world) has been described as a seamless, undifferentiated whole. Differentiations in time and space come into being, ie, "freeze into existence" only in the Newtonian world (think of water freezing: only then do we see cracks, bubbles and other definite features). John Bell later went on to show that phenomena involving the implicate order are "nonlocal," again able to operate "with indifference" to what we call space and time. Thus, a consciousness which could access this level of reality would be free of such constraints.

And yes, the many-worlds approach is necessary for psiconsciousness to work, otherwise there are no parallel outcomes to invoke, to find and splice onto our consensual frame of reference. Matter/energy is neither being created nor destroyed. Maybe "redistributed" would be a better term.

I hope this made things a wee bit clearer, as I am hardly an expert on this stuff, just someone who finds it all fascinating beyond words.

Originally posted by Mindship
The "implicate order" (to use David Bohm's term for the quantum deep underlying our familiar Newtonian world) has been described as a seamless, undifferentiated whole. Differentiations in time and space come into being, ie, "freeze into existence" only in the Newtonian world (think of water freezing: only then do we see cracks, bubbles and other definite features). John Bell later went on to show that phenomena involving the implicate order are "nonlocal," again able to operate "with indifference" to what we call space and time. Thus, a consciousness which could access this level of reality would be free of such constraints.

And yes, the many-worlds approach is necessary for psiconsciousness to work, otherwise there are no parallel outcomes to invoke, to find and splice onto our consensual frame of reference. Matter/energy is neither being created nor destroyed. Maybe "redistributed" would be a better term.

I hope this made things a wee bit clearer, as I am hardly an expert on this stuff, just someone who finds it all fascinating beyond words.

Thanks Mindy ? 🙂

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Do you think Perfection is Jean ?????? 🙂

Nope. That would be Beyonce. 😄

Just to further confirm current continuity, here are some scans from the latest issue of Uncanny x-men, released yesterday:

Jean Grey as ive said all along is literally the Phoenix Force in human form. 😉

This news kind of craps all over Galactus' concept. Unless they're trying to say everything Galactus does and has done, everything that happens is like... a brushstroke on a tapestry that is the Phoenix. If that's the case, slapping a spandex suit on it and putting it on the X-Men is the biggest case of jerk-offery I've ever seen.

I mean... It just leaves all kinds of questions. What happened to Eternity? Why did it become a human? Why take a gender? Why take an active role in the universe at all?

Jeez, just when we think we have it all figured out...

The Boys@Marvel just can't leave well enough alone, can they. Always lookin' for that next fix, that next, "Ooh, ooh wait, I got a really good idea...!"

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
This news kind of craps all over Galactus' concept. Unless they're trying to say everything Galactus does and has done, everything that happens is like... a brushstroke on a tapestry that is the Phoenix. If that's the case, slapping a spandex suit on it and putting it on the X-Men is the biggest case of jerk-offery I've ever seen.

How does it crap over the Galactus concept, i dont follow? Galactus was only ever a product of the universe, he was never a determinant of creation therefore Phoenix being reassigned the role she was given in her original story arc has no more effect than the later positioning of the Infinity Being in the role. Did u make such an outcry when that happened? Whats the difference?

Phoenix manifested as Jean to save her work, to save creation from the crystal as detailed in Classic X-men 43.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I mean... It just leaves all kinds of questions. What happened to Eternity? Why did it become a human? Why take a gender? Why take an active role in the universe at all?

What do u mean what happened to Eternity. Eternity was only ever the embodiment of the universe, a reflection of a facet of reality (the timeline) he was never stated to be the creator of the universe so this further confirmation of Phoenixes role doesnt affect him at all. Phoenix became human to perform "micro surgery" from within reality as stated in New X-men and Classic X-men. As stated in X-men the End, some cosmic tasks require an insiders perspective.

Does it matter why the Phoenix decided to take a gender. You could ask that question about just about every cosmic being in Marvel, so why focus on Phoenix and make a big fuss? Does it affect the story in any way, does not knowing why Phoenix decided to manifest a pair of juggs interfere with your enjoyment of marvel comics? 😕

What do you mean why take an active role in the universe? If she didnt take an active role as she did then the universe would have been destroyed many times over. The universe is her creation and she safeguards it by taking on a physical form (Jean Grey) through which she performs her micro surgery from within. Manifesting within reality in her true form results in the consumption of energy reserved for future generations hence the use of an avatar (Jean) and hosts (Rachel, Giraud)

'What do u mean what happened to Eternity. Eternity was only ever the embodiment of the universe, a reflection of a facet of reality (the timeline) he was never stated to be the creator of the universe so this further confirmation of Phoenixes role docent affect him at all. Phoenix became human to perform "micro surgery" from within reality as stated in New X-men and Classic X-men. As stated in X-men the End, some cosmic tasks require an insiders perspective.'

Not that it is important, but with reference to the previous statement its clear that the presence (Based on the classical God of Theism), is the more powerful transcendental being. No limitations have ever been attributed to his character, but this kind of seems like a small limitation. Just thinking out loud. 🙂

Originally posted by Doctor SKank
'What do u mean what happened to Eternity. Eternity was only ever the embodiment of the universe, a reflection of a facet of reality (the timeline) he was never stated to be the creator of the universe so this further confirmation of Phoenixes role docent affect him at all. Phoenix became human to perform "micro surgery" from within reality as stated in New X-men and Classic X-men. As stated in X-men the End, some cosmic tasks require an insiders perspective.'

Not that it is important, but with reference to the previous statement its clear that the presence (Based on the classical God of Theism), is the more powerful transcendental being. No limitations have ever been attributed to his character, but this kind of seems like a small limitation. Just thinking out loud. 🙂

But by that logic i could say the same thing about the Presence with his employment of the Spectre.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But by that logic i could say the same thing about the Presence with his employment of the Spectre.

Not as such ..... Its really about the appliance of human language. The presence could rewrite evils and enact cosmic justice and vengeance with a mere thought, but he doesn't. Instead he gave Jim Corrigan the choice to enact vengeance or go to heaven. Its seems like a very cosmic 'experimentaion' on free will and choice. Jean on the other hand is referred to as NEEDING, to take human form (to do whatever she has to do). Its a contradiction apply a word such as 'need' to an opnipotent being. 🙂