Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
If it were a physical manifestation of the force, then it would be able to affect Exar, as, just like the Vong, if you drop a skyscraper on his head it will hurt him. The main point remains. It is an instakill. Physical manifestation or not, no other technique has shown to literally instakill properties. Traya's attack didn't actually kill them if I remember correctly. I heard that Exar's instakill didn't actually kill Nadd's spirit on contact, it took several seconds. Luke's attack is the only known true instakill.
I'd like to address this poorly educated and nonsensical rambling...
1. There is NO indication that the emerald lightning is a physical manifestation of the force. Why is this being brought up?
2. You could try and drop a skyscraper on Kun, assuming that you had the chance. He can use tk too. Hate to break it to you.
3. I like how instakill suddenly becomes a title of prestige instead of a poorly used general description. It's nature is in doubt, and it wasn't even used on someone who could use the force. We've seen instances of force deflection and absorption all over Star Wars. Yoda can grab Sith lightning from Sidious. Exar Kun was too powerful for Odan Urr to destroy in the force, and Odan Urr far outstrips Yoda for experience, force mastery, and lore. Apparently this emerald lightning just skips past all logical barriers and is "instakill" and thus "unstoppable" by a Sith Lord who pwned Jedi masters without breaking a sweat, despite it only being used on a non-force using Vong. Like I said, this would be like frying a clone trooper with sith lightning and then declaring that you could defeat Marka Ragnos with it.
4. No, you don't remember correctly. Traya's attack DID kill them. She stripped them of the force. It says as much when you check the dead bodies. This is right after she pushes them around like pool balls. Considering she can zap three jedi masters with apparent ease, I should just play a Luke fanboy card and say she can zap ANYONE with apparent ease, and that it's INSTAKILL and therefore, NO ONE can defend against it. Traya pwns Luke. End of battle.
Isn't that kind of logic just bullshit, guys? Don't cha think?
5. Exar Kun didn't use a bonafide "instakill" attack on Freedan Nadd's spirit. Seriously, you are putting WAY too much emphasis on a term that was generated here at this forum and not by Star Wars canon. This is not Star Wars according to KMC. But later on Kun DID kill Odan Urr with extreme ease. The jedi master was rendered ****ed up and out of the fight instantly, and died quickly after. Without getting all puffed up about "teh instakill" we can see that Exar Kun's power surpasses that of a jedi master who's probably forgotten more jedi knowledge than Luke has ever had. (Hey, that's ripped off, but it's likely true.)
6. Where do you get off claiming that "Luke's is the only true instakill"? Aside from the horribly subjective nature of the forum-bred term, it's just more feat wars. Luke used an unknown attack against a non-force user that apparently killed the guy. OMFG Luke can kill all! Talk about leaping to conclusions! I can probably kill a Vong with a penknife if I get close enough. OMFG I can defeat an entire company of knights!
Wesker I enjoy how you try to downplay anything of Luke's, then call everyone "anti Kun". I could do the exact same thing for Exar Kun.. But being the logical and rational human being I have been the past few days I will address all of your points.
1. You're right, but the fact that Luke was the creator, and the sole user of it, says a lot.
2. I don't know what TK is but if you mean instakill, Kun wasn't shown to have instakilled anything. The closest he comes to wielding something of terrific power is his Amulet blasts.
3. Again downplaying the instakill technique but you get angry when someone downplays Kun's blasts. You're using bias as your argument Wesker. And again why do I have to point out to you that Sidious typical Sith blast is NOT the same thing as Luke's instakill. In fact you CANNOT absorb an instakill(unless you're the exile), saying otherwise would be bias. Odan outranks Yoda in force mastery, and lore? I can't wait for you to prove that one.
You: Apparently this emerald lightning just skips past all logical barriers and is "instakill" and thus "unstoppable" by a Sith Lord who pwned Jedi masters without breaking a sweat, despite it only being used on a non-force using Vong. Like I said, this would be like frying a clone trooper with sith lightning and then declaring that you could defeat Marka Ragnos with it.
^Uh no. What does Exar Kun pwning jedi masters without breaking a sweat have anything to do with stopping an instakill? Again you're just bringing up biased facts. And no, it's nothing like saying you would fry a clone trooper with sith lightning then declaring you could defeat Ragnos. I don't know where the hell you pulled that one out of but with every line you get more and more biased and less logical.
5. Without getting all puffed up about "teh instakill" we can see that Exar Kun's power surpasses that of a jedi master who's probably forgotten more jedi knowledge than Luke has ever had. (Hey, that's ripped off, but it's likely true.)
^thats pure opinion on your part and I respect it. But with the post you've made, you're trying to downplay Luke, saying everyone is exaggerating his achievements, WHILE exaggerating Kun's.
Wow this was my first good post, will be glad to hear your rebuttal.
4. Wrong again. Traya could only do that with the exile around. It was a similiar technique to Nihilus' only on a smaller scale, and both were results from the wound in the force. Not to mention Traya tied her life to the Exile's and she can't do it without his presence there..
The jedi master was rendered ****ed up and out of the fight instantly, and died quickly after. Without getting all puffed up about "teh instakill" we can see that Exar Kun's power surpasses that of a jedi master who's probably forgotten more jedi knowledge than Luke has ever had. (Hey, that's ripped off, but it's likely true.)
^That's nothing but your opinion, and I respect it ONLY as your opinion. What you have done in your thread was try and downplay Luke's achievements, while scolding everyone for supposedly making them something they're not, WHILE exaggerating Kun's. I know you like Kun and I respect your opinion, but don't scold others for theirs..
6. Where do you get off claiming that "Luke's is the only true instakill"? Aside from the horribly subjective nature of the forum-bred term, it's just more feat wars. Luke used an unknown attack against a non-force user that apparently killed the guy. OMFG Luke can kill all! Talk about leaping to conclusions! I can probably kill a Vong with a penknife if I get close enough. OMFG I can defeat an entire company of knights!
^
I think what he meant with that was that Luke's instakill was the only one that could be used without a "grey area", like Traya's instakill was a result of the wound. That's all. It seems you get angry when people make Luke look uber powerful, and then get defensive when people share your reaction about Kun.
Originally posted by Illustrious
You obviously didn't read before you jumped on the bandwagon. He never said "absence of proof is not proof of absence" could use to explain that Kun can do anything.He said if things are logical to assume true, then you can assume it true even if it was not depicted. He used a very valid example. Kun is a human. All humans have bowel movements. Therefore Kun takes shits even though he was never depicted as doing so. Absence of Kun taking it a shit in the comics does not proof Kun never took a shit. Got it? IKC was applying logical premises towards his argument.
To be fair i used my message as a general rule for people to be careful how they use it, I do believe that in my post i say that at certain points it's warranted, I'm just saying that with the rare exception of blatently obvious conclusions it should be avioded by people as it can be used to skew the facts. I wasn't condeming IKC as his arguements are really quite well thought out and convincing, I was warning people to watch it's use as it can lead them a dark path...
A for luke's instakill, traya did the same to 3 Jedi MASTERS simutainiously, so if we're going by feats she owns luke, and Kun was definitley beyond traya(I won't waste my time explaining that one) and was able to freeze the entire senate, walk in kill the most powerful jedi master in the order then walk out, i think that beats instakilling a non force user.
Originally posted by tdtd
Wesker I enjoy how you try to downplay anything of Luke's, then call everyone "anti Kun". I could do the exact same thing for Exar Kun.. But being the logical and rational human being I have been the past few days I will address all of your points.
I am not buying into your taunts, tdtd. I'd like to keep this civil, so please... keep them to yourself. The post was addressed to Glentract, who has demonstrated a surprisingly lack of knowledge on the topic.
1. You're right, but the fact that Luke was the creator, and the sole user of it, says a lot.
Again, straight out of Wookieepedia. Look, he's used it. But nowhere does it say specifically (omnisciently), that he invented it and only he can use it. And even if it did, there's nothing to say that another force user couldn't identify its nature and block against it. Considering how little we know about it and how little has been substantiated about it, the claim that Luke can use that to kill a force user is suspect. That's what I'm saying in response to Glentract's claims. That's my main point, rants aside.
2. I don't know what TK is but if you mean instakill, Kun wasn't shown to have instakilled anything. The closest he comes to wielding something of terrific power is his Amulet blasts.
TK is telekinesis. And I believe he uses a force choke on Odan Urr, btw. Just noting that from looking at the comics again. If he's strong enough to break Odan's force tk, that's pretty damn good. Jedi are trained to resist tk from a very early age, but force mastery and/or power can just override it. Case in point- Dooku force chokes and throws Obi-Wan Kenobi, though the latter clearly can defend against tk as evidenced in the duel with Anakin.
And the issue of instakill is moot; it's a forum birthed word and subjective as all hell. I can call a blaster to the head an instakill, but it won't beat a sith lord. It's featwars. It does not substantiate.
3. Again downplaying the instakill technique but you get angry when someone downplays Kun's blasts. You're using bias as your argument Wesker. And again why do I have to point out to you that Sidious typical Sith blast is NOT the same thing as Luke's instakill.
You're obviously either skimming or misreading what I've posted. I was pointing out to the very obvious fact that Sidious' powerful lightning can be blocked by Yoda, who has likely never used it and may have never actually seen it before. It's a force attack, and an unusual one. Luke's lightning is not like Sidious' in form, but it IS a force attack, and it may be known of and possibly blocked. We don't know yet. Glentract's assumed the best possible outcome for Luke, that it's totally 100% bonafide instakill and cannot be blocked or known about. This is ridiculous and illogical.
In fact you CANNOT absorb an instakill(unless you're the exile), saying otherwise would be bias.
WTF? Where did you get this? Since when are all "instakill" moves unable to be absorbed except by the Exile? Since when do certain moves qualify for the terms and conditions of a completely uncanon term generated from forum hounds? No, YOU assuming that certain attacks are "Instakill" and thus "unblockable" is bullshit and bias, and you have no proof for such. Instakill is not a trait or term used or endorsed by Lucasfilm. Stop using it to fit your argument.
Odan outranks Yoda in force mastery, and lore? I can't wait for you to prove that one.
Erm... did you NOT read the comics? It's in there, tdtd. He founded Ossus, a collection of jedi lore never known before or since in the history of the Republic, and fought in the wars with the sith following the Great Hyperspace War, which lasted about ten years according to the New Essential Chronology. As he showed Vima, he knows how to cut off aggressive force users from the force, and it's a good bet that he used it in the sith wars against sith lords. Yoda doesn't have anywhere near the age and amount of information to soak up, and his getting asspounded by Darth Sidious the closet sith/politician doesn't bode well for his "force and saber mastery".
^Uh no. What does Exar Kun pwning jedi masters without breaking a sweat have anything to do with stopping an instakill?
Actually, it was in reference to the fight itself. I notice that Luke fanboys are one-trick ponies; they focus on this one unsubstantiated, exaggerated trait of Luke's and argue it to death. If Luke's only chance of winning a fight with Kun is a move that may or may not work against force users (Especially a sith lord of incredible power, as noted by WTFpwning major jedi masters of his era with ease.), that's just sad. And again, stop using the term "instakill". It does not substantiate anything and it's misleading as all hell.
Again you're just bringing up biased facts. And no, it's nothing like saying you would fry a clone trooper with sith lightning then declaring you could defeat Ragnos. I don't know where the hell you pulled that one out of but with every line you get more and more biased and less logical.
Info here? 0. Try again, trooper.
^thats pure opinion on your part and I respect it. But with the post you've made, you're trying to downplay Luke, saying everyone is exaggerating his achievements, WHILE exaggerating Kun's.
Kun has a very solid case with support and logical arguments. Luke has people like you and Glentract, who use vague terms like "instakill" and argue with no evidence whatsoever.
Wow this was my first good post, will be glad to hear your rebuttal.
4. Wrong again. Traya could only do that with the exile around. It was a similiar technique to Nihilus' only on a smaller scale, and both were results from the wound in the force. Not to mention Traya tied her life to the Exile's and she can't do it without his presence there..
Prove this conclusively. What you've said here is a THEORY provided by Fishy, and it's one I've argued before when it first came out.
And you do know I was mocking the Luke "OMFG instakill" argument you've been supporting, right? It's possible that some people could block or even render Traya useless with a gesture.
^That's nothing but your opinion, and I respect it ONLY as your opinion. What you have done in your thread was try and downplay Luke's achievements, while scolding everyone for supposedly making them something they're not, WHILE exaggerating Kun's. I know you like Kun and I respect your opinion, but don't scold others for theirs..
Except Glentract's opinion is clearly flawed and he doesn't have all the facts in front of him. That's asking to be scolded. Would you let me lie if I came in here and said Kun beats Luke and then I don't know jackshit either?
I think what he meant with that was that Luke's instakill was the only one that could be used without a "grey area", like Traya's instakill was a result of the wound. That's all. It seems you get angry when people make Luke look uber powerful, and then get defensive when people share your reaction about Kun.
I'm attacking the idea of the instakill itself, though. Luke's attack may be fatal to a Vong, but it might not do shit to a force user. And no one's proved it can do shit to a force user, so it's applicability in a match is questionable. This puts it right in the 'grey area' with Traya's questionable move.
And I don't get all angry when people make Luke uber, although I have good reason to be skeptical. You've been deliberately antagonistic towards IKC and myself for us holding views and supporting them, while you've provided next to nothing yourself. Glentract's also notorious for being Luke-biased, and his arguments are always sketchy and easily unraveled. So the problem I have isn't with the conclusion; it's how it's reached and how I'm getting it. I'm not in this to glorify Kun. You may not believe that, but it's true. I'm trying to make sure everyone stays on the same damn page though, because IKC has provided his proof, I've gone over it, and Illustrious has. It may not be 100% in Kun's favor against Luke. Hell, it might not even be 75%. New evidence might pop up that would make Luke pwn every sith lord known. But for now, with what we have, I've made my decision. And I've supported it, along with others.
Ok that's nice you call me a Luke fanboy I call you a Kun fanboy and I wasn't attacking you, but it seems to be that your opinion for Kun is as biased as others are for Luke.
TK is telekinesis. And I believe he uses a force choke on Odan Urr, btw. Just noting that from looking at the comics again. If he's strong enough to break Odan's force tk, that's pretty damn good. Jedi are trained to resist tk from a very early age, but force mastery and/or power can just override it. Case in point- Dooku force chokes and throws Obi-Wan Kenobi, though the latter clearly can defend against tk as evidenced in the duel with Anakin.
I wasn't arguing with that.
WTF? Where did you get this? Since when are all "instakill" moves unable to be absorbed except by the Exile? Since when do certain moves qualify for the terms and conditions of a completely uncanon term generated from forum hounds? No, YOU assuming that certain attacks are "Instakill" and thus "unblockable" is bullshit and bias, and you have no proof for such. Instakill is not a trait or term used or endorsed by Lucasfilm. Stop using it to fit your argument.
You're right, Nihilus' and Traya's technique had a defense for it, as did Lukes. PRove up.
You've listed numerous feats for Odan Urr, congratulations. However you still fail to prove how he is superior to Yoda in both Saber/Force mastery.
Actually, it was in reference to the fight itself. I notice that Luke fanboys are one-trick ponies; they focus on this one unsubstantiated, exaggerated trait of Luke's and argue it to death. If Luke's only chance of winning a fight with Kun is a move that may or may not work against force users (Especially a sith lord of incredible power, as noted by WTFpwning major jedi masters of his era with ease.), that's just sad. And again, stop using the term "instakill". It does not substantiate anything and it's misleading as all hell.
^I can say the same thing for you and IKC in regards to Kun.
Kun has a very solid case with support and logical arguments. Luke has people like you and Glentract, who use vague terms like "instakill" and argue with no evidence whatsoever.
^Also pure opinion as you and IKC have done nothing but exaggerate Kun's powers and feats, and still not proven how he would take DN Luke.
And you do know I was mocking the Luke "OMFG instakill" argument you've been supporting, right? It's possible that some people could block or even render Traya useless with a gesture.
^Sure, prove up..
And I don't get all angry when people make Luke uber, although I have good reason to be skeptical. You've been deliberately antagonistic towards IKC and myself for us holding views and supporting them, while you've provided next to nothing yourself. Glentract's also notorious for being Luke-biased, and his arguments are always sketchy and easily unraveled. So the problem I have isn't with the conclusion; it's how it's reached and how I'm getting it. I'm not in this to glorify Kun. You may not believe that, but it's true. I'm trying to make sure everyone stays on the same damn page though, because IKC has provided his proof, I've gone over it, and Illustrious has. It may not be 100% in Kun's favor against Luke. Hell, it might not even be 75%. New evidence might pop up that would make Luke pwn every sith lord known. But for now, with what we have, I've made my decision. And I've supported it, along with others.
^Except IKC wrote a few novels, you backed him up, and Illustrious agreed that there isn't favor for DN Luke>Kun nor vice versa. You're making the same argument I'm making now, but for Kun, while I make it for Luke. I haven't done anything you haven't done for supporting the character that I like, so please don't sit there and call people fanboys, unless you want to be called a hypocrite.
Ok that's nice you call me a Luke fanboy I call you a Kun fanboy and I wasn't attacking you, but it seems to be that your opinion for Kun is as biased as others are for Luke.
Are you just lazy or do you not know how to use forum functions? Use the QUOTE feature.
You're right, Nihilus' and Traya's technique had a defense for it, as did Lukes. PRove up.
You've listed numerous feats for Odan Urr, congratulations. However you still fail to prove how he is superior to Yoda in both Saber/Force mastery.
Called extrapolation. Odan Urr fought the bigger bad guys (the Ancient Sith Empire vs. a few dark siders, like Yoda did), he had more knowledge, seeing as how he basically founded Ossus and camped there for a millenia. He is demonstrated to be extremely proficient with the force, including teaching others how to cut others from the force. He knew battle meditation, and he has proven to be more than a competent warrior.
What does Yoda have to top this? Because he spun around like a green top in the movies?
^I can say the same thing for you and IKC in regards to Kun.
No you can't. Last I checked, the Kun supporters were arguing that Kun's lightsaber mastery is greater than Lukes, his force powers are more destructive, AND his knowledge was greater. Even though Kun had way fewer feats, they still can launch a more complete argument than the Luke side, that's sad.
^Also pure opinion as you and IKC have done nothing but exaggerate Kun's powers and feats, and still not proven how he would take DN Luke.
They have established the likelihood that he can take Luke. The Luke side has not established how Luke could defeat Kun, while the Kun side has given more reasons than the DN supporters.
If you're expecting people to prove 100% to your Luke-supporting standards, then no, that will never happen.
How did they prove that Kun's lightsaber abilities are more superior to Luke's? How did they prove that his blasts are more powerful.
Because Kun created his own style, because Kun beat Vodo? But apparently Luke being so fast that he's not seen by the naked eye is pure hyperbole... Riiight... Putting Kun's blasts above Luke's instakill technique. Because he can blast through a Sith wyrm? Ok.. But of course Luke's technique is nothing because defeating someone not of the force is the same thing as defeating a force user... Riiight.. Now if someone does prove that either one of them can defeat the other, I'm all ears... But all you've done is listed feats that may or may not help him win in a 1 on 1 fight. When someone lists the same feats from luke, they suddenly become irrelevant or hyperbole. You're right, The Kun side has given MORE reasons, like novels that are completely irrelevant to a 1 on 1 fight.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Called extrapolation. Odan Urr fought the bigger bad guys (the Ancient Sith Empire vs. a few dark siders, like Yoda did), he had more knowledge, seeing as how he basically founded Ossus and camped there for a millenia. He is demonstrated to be extremely proficient with the force, including teaching others how to cut others from the force. He knew battle meditation, and he has proven to be more than a competent warrior.What does Yoda have to top this? Because he spun around like a green top in the movies?
Vergere, who was nothing special could also cut people from the force. Yarael Poof, another Jedi who was nothing special, could use battle meditation. Both of them were nothing next to Yoda. Odan may have created Ossus, but Yoda had something very similar. Yoda is believed to have helped in the creation of the Chu'unthor. I don't really see how founding a Jedi Temple implies extreme knowledge of the force in a manner then would be helpful in combat, but I mentioned Yoda working with the Chu'unthor anyway. Odan has a full hundred years over Yoda. That's really not that much out of how long they've been training. I'd argue that Vodo is better then Yoda even though he has a full 300 years less training. Training time alone doesn't mean a lot, as some Jedi trained to be more martial then other Jedi.
Originally posted by Illustrious
No you can't. Last I checked, the Kun supporters were arguing that Kun's lightsaber mastery is greater than Lukes, his force powers are more destructive, AND his knowledge was greater. Even though Kun had way fewer feats, they still can launch a more complete argument than the Luke side, that's sad.
What are you talking about? Luke can wield his lightsaber as if it were 20. Could Exar do the same?
Luke was able to move faster then even a Jedi can see. Could Exar do the same?
Luke was able to defend himself from the force attacks from a person with the force potential of 375 planets. Could Exar do the same?
Luke was able to control black hole's and use them as a weapon agains the Yuuzhan Vong. Could Exar do the same?
Luke was able to fight through thousands of Yuuzhan Vong who he could not sense in the force. Could Exar do the same?
Even if Exar had greater knowledge of the force then Luke, it would not be by much. How old was Exar? 30 years old, maybe? Assuming he was trained from birth, which we know wasn't the norm in the time he was trained, he has only a few years more to learn then Luke has had. Remember that Luke has unrestricted access to both the Jedi Teachings on the Chu'unthor and Luke also recovered a lot from the ruins of Ossus. Unrestricted access. For most of Exar's life he was probably held back by his Masters until they felt he was ready for certain knowledge. That's restricted access. Not as good for gaining raw power as unrestriced access to a huge amount of knowledge.
1. No one has proved that Exar has better saber skills then Luke. If anything, Luke is better with a lightsaber.
2. No one has proved that Exar has better force powers then Luke. Luke could very well be more powerful.
3. Luke and Exar have about the same amount of knowledge. Exar doesn't have more knowledge.
Originally posted by Illustrious
They have established the likelihood that he can take Luke. The Luke side has not established how Luke could defeat Kun, while the Kun side has given more reasons than the DN supporters.If you're expecting people to prove 100% to your Luke-supporting standards, then no, that will never happen.
I think I just gave a good enough reason above. Answer that and then we'll just see who is better.
Vergere, who was nothing special could also cut people from the force. Yarael Poof, another Jedi who was nothing special, could use battle meditation. Both of them were nothing next to Yoda. Odan may have created Ossus, but Yoda had something very similar. Yoda is believed to have helped in the creation of the Chu'unthor. I don't really see how founding a Jedi Temple implies extreme knowledge of the force in a manner then would be helpful in combat, but I mentioned Yoda working with the Chu'unthor anyway. Odan has a full hundred years over Yoda. That's really not that much out of how long they've been training. I'd argue that Vodo is better then Yoda even though he has a full 300 years less training. Training time alone doesn't mean a lot, as some Jedi trained to be more martial then other Jedi.
Well in that case, Odan-Urr was one of those Jedi who helped purge the Ancient Sith, which is greater martial experience than anything Yoda has done.
This argument is silly. You take your opinion, establish it as the status quo, and then you expect the other side to provide your extremely narrow definition of irrefutable proof.
You're comparing Chu'unthor to Ossus? You realize that Luke got a fair amount of his own knowledge from the scorched remains of Ossus, right? You realize that Kun plundering Ossus for a few hours (and nowhere near enough to get even a noticeable fraction of the material) has "more than he could ever use," right? You realize that the Jedi trying to save the material took hours and still could only retrieve a small fraction of said knowledge, right?
What has Chu'unthor done to compare? Ossus was the Jedi City, and it's elaborated as such in Dark Lords of the Sith.
And we all know that knowledge never correlates into power, of course.
What are you talking about? Luke can wield his lightsaber as if it were 20. Could Exar do the same?
You mean according to Jaina's hyperbole, Luke wielded his lightsaber like it was 20. Okay. And how well were those "20 lightsabers" wielded? To what proficiency would each of those lightsabers correlate to?
But wait, this doesn't matter, because we have Glentract's pseudomath!
Luke was able to move faster then even a Jedi can see. Could Exar do the same?
Force Speed is nothing new. Unless you're arguing that Jedi have an automatic bullet time vision, they would have to use force speed to keep up to another force speed.
And this is irrelevant, considering Luke never moved too fast for a competent force-wielding, lightsaber-toting enemy to see.
Luke was able to defend himself from the force attacks from a person with the force potential of 375 planets. Could Exar do the same?
Here you go again.
I asked you to do this for me several times already, and you seem to ignore it every time:
Quantify the energy of the 375 planets.
Tell me where The Force has been converted to ANY SI unit whatsoever. Tell me if energy from another source is increased linearly, exponentially, logarithmically, or etc. Tell me where The Force has been referenced in Joules, Newtons, Watts, or ANY such form of energy.
Here, I'll make it simple for you: It hasn't. So let's throw around 375 planets because it seems like this godly number! Yay.
And what kind of tactic is this? Because Luke beat someone that Kun didn't, it's supposed to be evidence for something?
Okay... Kun froze tens of thousands of sentient lifeforms of various alien species, can Luke do the same?
Luke was able to control black hole's and use them as a weapon agains the Yuuzhan Vong. Could Exar do the same?
And Kyp Durron could do the same. Could he beat down Exar?
Aleema had superior illusions to Luke, could she beat him?
And what the hell does controlling a black hole have anything to do with him engaging in combat with Exar?
Luke was able to fight through thousands of Yuuzhan Vong who he could not sense in the force. Could Exar do the same?
And then he struggled with the fake overlord. Yay, let's correlate random Vong Henchman #47 and proclaim him Artoo now. Tell me, how strong was each individual Vong he hacked through? Tell me, how are they much stronger than a Massassi who could go toe to toe with a Jedi, and was even shown to floor a pissed off Jedi with a single punch?
By this logic, Kun wouldn't need to fight off the Vong, he'd just freeze them and gallivant his way through their ranks.
Even if Exar had greater knowledge of the force then Luke, it would not be by much. How old was Exar? 30 years old, maybe? Assuming he was trained from birth, which we know wasn't the norm in the time he was trained, he has only a few years more to learn then Luke has had. Remember that Luke has unrestricted access to both the Jedi Teachings on the Chu'unthor and Luke also recovered a lot from the ruins of Ossus. Unrestricted access. For most of Exar's life he was probably held back by his Masters until they felt he was ready for certain knowledge. That's restricted access. Not as good for gaining raw power as unrestriced access to a huge amount of knowledge.
And did Luke have access to Sith Magic? Did he get Sadow's notes? Did he have someone as powerful as Freedon Nadd teaching him stuff? Did he demonstrate such a meteoric rise to the top as Exar did?
But of course, it's as simple as number of years trained and this intangible thing of "restricted" vs. "unrestricted" access, right?
1. No one has proved that Exar has better saber skills then Luke. If anything, Luke is better with a lightsaber.
Uh huh, because I see a lot of proof of that in your post.
2. No one has proved that Exar has better force powers then Luke. Luke could very well be more powerful.
Yes, again, let's take my opinion and make it the status quo.
I'm sorry, but beams from hands that rip through walls and giant beasts > ambiguous emerald lightning that kills Vong.
Freezing the senate while beating down on Vodo > manipulating a black hole that was repeated by Kyp Durron and would have no bearing on a versus fight anyway.
3. Luke and Exar have about the same amount of knowledge. Exar doesn't have more knowledge.
Really, you established this how? Because you managed to say "unrestricted" instead of "restricted"?
Where was Kun's age established? Why would the narrator mention that he had more knowledge than he could ever use if he didn't have knowledge?
Did Luke ever have Sadow's notes and other Sith teachings? Oh wait, because those Sith were total weaklings!
I think I just gave a good enough reason above. Answer that and then we'll just see who is better.
Not one of your points didn't contain pseudomath or a non sequitur. Next?
Originally posted by Wesker
You're hopeless, tdtd. You either don't pay attention when people post or you don't want to "get it". Either way, you're not worth my time, that's for sure. You're nothing more than a troll who can't debate, so he insults those who can.
Right, I can't debate, says the fanboy. Can we say hypocrite? You're a dumb kid who likes to throw around insignificant insults because you got butthurt, don't waste your time or anyone elses with your text.
Illustrious, all I see you and IKC doing is trying to destroy arguments about Luke while again embellishing Kun's powers foolishly. At least Glentract could make a good case for both parties while you guys verbally fellate Kun.
You: I'm sorry, but beams from hands that rip through walls and giant beasts > ambiguous emerald lightning that kills Vong.
Yea, because you have any basis for this logic of yours.. Because if the amulet blast can rip through walls and giant beasts, it can automatically be used on Luke, while Luke's lightning is 'ambiguous'. Oh wait, it's your personal opinion, nothing more.
Freezing the senate while beating down on Vodo > manipulating a black hole that was repeated by Kyp Durron and would have no bearing on a versus fight anyway.
You're right, freezing the senate pertains to a versus fight.. Btw, when the sith spell was used the senate became frozen. It's not like Kun had to control anybody while fighting Vodo. And sure, lets throw out all the hyperbole that make Luke seem very powerful and maybe superior to Kun, but then let's use IKC's hyperbole of "Exar Kun was the most formidable student Vodo ever had". Right. All I see you doing is picking apart Luke's arguments, making insane arguments for Kun, and using cute little personal attacks on a stupid versus forum. You're not as bad as Wesker or IKC but you're getting there. And yet you still have failed to prove how Kun is superior to DN Luke in anyway. That is, anything outside of personal opinion..
Illustrious, all I see you and IKC doing is trying to destroy arguments about Luke while again embellishing Kun's powers foolishly. At least Glentract could make a good case for both parties while you guys verbally fellate Kun.
Funny that because it agrees with what you've mentioned, it's a good case. And when did Glentract make a good case for Kun? All I see him posting is Luke feat, another Luke feat, third Luke feat, and so on.
Yea, because you have any basis for this logic of yours.. Oh wait, it's an opinion, nothing more.
Because it's more relevant. Has this Emerald lightning shown to kill a force user? No.
Can this beam kill a force user? You damn well believe it. Unless a force users skin is that much more consistent than temple walls, Massassi, and a Sith Wyrm, not to mention that it killed Nadd's spirit.
Wait, how is that simply an opinion? I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to in a versus, applying relevant context.
You're right, freezing the senate pertains to a versus fight.. Btw, when the sith spell was used the senate became frozen. It's not like Kun had to control anybody while fighting Vodo. All I see you doing is picking apart Luke's arguments, making insane arguments for Kun, and using cute little personal attacks on a stupid versus forum. You're not as bad as Wesker or IKC but you're getting there. And yet you still have failed to prove how Kun is superior to DN Luke in anyway. That is, anything outside of personal opinion..
You're sure one to talk. You constantly say DN Luke > Kun with NO PROOF to support it.
You use other people's arguments that demean Kun's accomplishments as your basis for opinion. Great hypocrisy.
When in the PAST two days have I constantly stated DN Luke>Kun? All I hear is "Kun's better I don't want to hear anything else", from you and Wesker, but at least you make up some logical arguments. I'm saying it can go either way because there's enough evidence on both parties to state that. You and IKC are putting Kun and his 1 comic on a higher pedestal than Luke and his 50 books. I don't care if you hate Luke, I personally don't like him either, but I'm not trying to show bias, and trying to establish a middle ground that's logical.
Originally posted by tdtd
When in the PAST two days have I constantly stated DN Luke>Kun? All I hear is "Kun's better I don't want to hear anything else", from you and Wesker, but at least you make up some logical arguments. I'm saying it can go either way because there's enough evidence on both parties to state that. You and IKC are putting Kun and his 1 comic on a higher pedestal than Luke and his 50 books. I don't care if you hate Luke, I personally don't like him either, but I'm not trying to show bias, and trying to establish a middle ground that's logical.
Yet you argue that Glentract and his feat wars is logical. Right...
The fact of the matter is that the beams Kun shot showed more destructive power that's applicable to a versus fight than what Luke has shown, emerald lightning or not.
When have I stated "Kun's better I don't want to hear anything else" at all? Much less the past two days. In fact, if anything, Luke's argument is based on hyperbole or non sequitur.
"Luke can swing his saber like it's 20 blades!!" And how effective is each of those 20 blades?
"Luke can control a black hole." And this is relevant how?
"Luke beat someone with the combined power of 375 planets!" Never mind that Raynar was the "Joiner" King, so that he was able to integrate the Killiks into his mind; it was never expressed that all of their combined force potential physically manifested itself in his TK.
Those arguments are BS. And if you are as logical as you claim, you'd see it.
No I didn't say his feat wars were logical. I said he has a nicer way of putting things while the Kun fans snap when their opinion isn't shared.
So you're saying for some reason that normal sith lightning works on a force user, but a green lightning instakill won't? Wouldn't it be logical to assume that the emerald lightning would be able to work on a force user just as much as sith lightning, while emerald lightning is far more powerful? Now that's not saying Kun couldn't stop it but you can't assume Kun's blasts will work on Luke either. Luke can swing 20 blades, youre right we don't know how effective they are, but we know that Luke has shown force speed in his saber fights while Kun has not. Does it mean Kun can't? No. But we know Luke can, and that would obviously be useful in a versus fight, since he is known to use force speed. And it would be very effective. The rest are hyperbole, but they are a test of Luke's force power, which isn't irrelevant in a fight but make him seem powerful.
Saying that Kun can freeze a senate while fighting Vodo would somehow help him in a fight with Luke, isn't logical.
Saying because Kun developed his own style and defeated Vodo would make him superior to Luke is not logical.