DN Luke Runs a Short Guantlet

First off, just wanted to say that this is my longest post here other then when I posted my Ajunta Pall story. I think I came close to making a post this long when me and Nai were going at it over whether Kyp or Dooku was better. Just thought that was cool.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Well in that case, Odan-Urr was one of those Jedi who helped purge the Ancient Sith, which is greater martial experience than anything Yoda has done.

Elaborate. What exactly did he do to help purge the Ancient Sith. By the same logic, I could state that every single member of the 501st has greater martial experince then Yoda as they helped purge the Jedi. Not so.

Originally posted by Illustrious
This argument is silly. You take your opinion, establish it as the status quo, and then you expect the other side to provide your extremely narrow definition of irrefutable proof.

Do you even know my opinion? No, you don't, so stop acting like you do. I've stated before that I think Odan could take Yoda, I'm just establishing that your glorification of Odan to the degree that you state over Yoda is crap.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You're comparing Chu'unthor to Ossus? You realize that Luke got a fair amount of his own knowledge from the scorched remains of Ossus, right? You realize that Kun plundering Ossus for a few hours (and nowhere near enough to get even a noticeable fraction of the material) has "more than he could ever use," right? You realize that the Jedi trying to save the material took hours and still could only retrieve a small fraction of said knowledge, right?

How exactly does Exar have more knowledge then he could ever use help your case for him? Luke had more time to study the knowledge he got from Ossus then Exar did. Even still, Odan had a mere 100 years over Yoda. Yes, that's more knowledge, but not as much more as you so claim.

Originally posted by Illustrious
What has Chu'unthor done to compare? Ossus was [b]the Jedi City, and it's elaborated as such in Dark Lords of the Sith. [/B]

The Chu'unthor has whatever knowledge that was saved from Ossus on it as well as an additional several thousand years of knowledge. Do you really think that the Jedi didn't re-invent almost, if not everything, lost on Ossus by then? It's not like the Masters who knew the knowledge were dead, just the books that the knowledge had previously written on had been destroyed. The Jedi didn't really lose much at Ossus in the long term.

Originally posted by Illustrious
And we all know that knowledge never correlates into power, of course.

Did I say that? No, I did not. I said that it isn't the end all factor.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You mean according to Jaina's hyperbole, Luke wielded his lightsaber like it was 20. Okay. And how well were those "20 lightsabers" wielded? To what proficiency would each of those lightsabers correlate to?

But wait, this doesn't matter, because we have Glentract's pseudomath!

You can't just lable whatever you want hyperbole. You need a basis for it, and you don't have one. She's a fully trained Jedi who has seen Luke fight before. Why would her description of Luke's skill be unaccurate? Luke's 20 lightsabers were obviously wielded with a level of skill that surpasses several thousand amphistaffs in the hands of Yuuzhan Vong Warriors that have been fighting since the day they were born.

How exactly is my statement pseudomath?

Originally posted by Illustrious
Force Speed is nothing new. Unless you're arguing that Jedi have an automatic bullet time vision, they would have to use force speed to keep up to another force speed.

And this is irrelevant, considering Luke never moved too fast for a competent force-wielding, lightsaber-toting enemy to see.

The fact remains that a Jedi could not see him move. Why could we all se Sidious, Mace, Dooku, or Yoda move in ROTS? They must have just been the crappiest Jedi of all time, right? Why isn't Exar ever described as being able to move faster then the eye can see? And how do you know that force speed affects the eyes?

It seems to me that you are taking Exar's lightsaber skills and saying that him beating Luke is the status quo as you haven't proven that Exar could beat Luke with a lightsaber. All I've heard is, "Exar made his own form!" and "Exar used a double-bladed lightsaber!". By that horrible logic, Mace and Darth Maul must be up there with Luke and Exar too.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Here you go again.

I asked you to do this for me several times already, and you seem to ignore it every time:

[b]Quantify the energy of the 375 planets. [/B]

If we look at the difference between ROTJ Sidious and DE Sidious we can see pretty well what the difference is, meaning what the additional power gained from the planet did to him. Sort of at least.

The most powerful feat that we see Sidious do it in ROTS when he lifts three of the Senate Pods into the air high above his head. There is only one way to do this that I can think of. You guessed it, math and science.

BTW, rather then just labeling this pseudoscience like I know you will try to do, prove it wrong if you can.

Lets say that each Senate Pod weighs 150 metric tons. Obviously this is an extremely generous estimate, as thats far more then even a main battle tank. Lets also say that Sidious raised the pods 300 meters into the air. Again, this is extremely generous in YOU"RE favor. And then lets say that he raised the pods to the entire distance in a single second.

So, ROTS Sidious was able to move 150 metric tons with an acceleration of 300 meters per second.

Let's just plug these numbers into the formula: F = m*a

150,000 * 300 = 45,000,000 newtons of force behind that lift. That is a lot.
^The reason that it is 150,000 rather then 150 is because the kilogram is the base unit, not the metric ton.

This equates to 45,000,000 watts as well, as it was done over the course of a single second. Very impressive.

However, DE Sidious has one feat which is FAR more impressive.

Any of the following in bold is a direct quote from stardestroyer.net, which is a very reliable source. But don't take my word for it, check it out yourself.

If ISDs carry 200 Turbolasers (as suggested by blueprints), then they must average around 2.5 million terawatts of sustained firepower per cannon. Of course, there are different sized cannons, some releasing less power than this, and some more.

The common belief is that ISDs carry 60 turbolasers. This is very conservative, since 64 cannons are mounted immediately lateral to the command superstructure alone, with scores covering the rest of the hull. However, if we assume there are only 60 cannons, then they must average around 8 million terawatts of firepower each.

^ quoted from the turbolasers commentary section, under the firepower page. If you want to see all of the proof behind it, it's there.

Since 200 turbolasers appears to be the actual number for the number of turbolasers, we'll go with each turbolaser having an output of 2.5 million terrawats.

In the opening scene of AHN we see approximately 25 turbolaser blasts fired from an ISD in 5 seconds. That equates to 5 shots per second.

We see in ROTJ that the Mon Calamari cruisers were able to go 30 minutes before their shields started to fail.

Lets add the above up.

2.5 terrawatts * 5 shots per second = 12.5 terrawatts of fire taken by the shields EVERY SINGLE SECOND.

The cruisers were able to survive for 1,800 seconds before their shields started to fail. From this we can discover how much energy the shields were capable of absorbing.

12,500,000,000,000 watts * 1,800(seconds) = 2.25e+16 watts

2.25e+16 watts means 22,500,000,000,000,000 watts of energy. That is a LOT.

Now, to find out how much more powerful DE Sidious is then ROTS Sidious, we look at how much enery Sidious would have generate in the same amount of time, ASSUMING THAT SIDIOUS WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO KEEP UP THE MAXIMUM BURTS OF ENERGY FOR AN ENTIRE HALF ON WITHOUT REST!! This is extremely in YOUR favor, as the chance of Sidious being able to keep up the maximum burts of energy that we seen from him for an entire half hour is practically zero.

45,000,000watts(the amount of power Sidious produced, as calculated above) * 1,800(seconds) = 81,000,000,000 watts

Since DE Sidious destroyed a fleet with his force storms, we can calculate that how much stronger DE SIdious was then ROTS Sidious.

22,500,000,000,000,000 watts - 81,000,000,000 watts = 2.2499919e+16 watts

2.2499919e+16 = (rounded) 22,499,920,000,000,000 watts.

That is a huge difference in energy.

But wait, there's more.

22,499,920,000,000,000 watts * 375 planets = 8.43747e+18 watts

8.43747e+18 watts = 8,437,470,000,000,000 watts

Notice that the above calculations are based on the idea that DE Sidious only destroyed a single Mon Calamari Cruiser with his force storms. The actual number would be several times higher, as he took on an entire fleet of them.

Notice that I have been extremely generous in your favor throughout proving the power of 375 planets. If you can, prove me wrong. The proof is there, stardestroyer.net.

But what does the above number mean? A lot really. We just have to put it into perspective with Exar.

If we look at Exar's instakill, which you parade around as being able to blast through walls, we will so learn who was more powerful, Raynar or Exar.

Since I don't know through how much of the Temple Exar's blast went through, I am going to assume that he blasted through a rectangular prism that is 10 meters tall, 10 meters wide, and a hundred meters deep and made of iron with such force that he vaporised the entire cube.

He(Wong) states that, to cause flashes that large, the weapons must have vaporised at least one cubic meter of armor. If so, and we assume that the Death Star is made of iron; the four X-Wing cannons output approximately 60 GJ of energy.

So, we can see from this that a block of iron that is one meter long will take 60 GJ of energy to vaporize. If it is done in one second, it will equal 60 GW. If it is done in a tenth of a second it will take 600 GW.

The rectangle that I mentioned Exar blasting through with enough force to vaporise has a mass that is 10,000 times greater then a one meter long cube. 10 * 10 = 100. 100 * 100 = 10,000.

So, we take 600 GW and multiply it by 10,000 and we get 6e+15watts.

6e+15 = 6,000,000,000,000,000 watts

To find out which blast is more powerful the the other and by how much, we'll take Raynar's power figure and divide it by Kun's.

8,437,470,000,000,000 watts / 6,000,000,000,000,000 watts = 1.406245

This shows that Raynar had roughly 40% more power then Exar did. Don't forget that Luke overpowered Raynar.

Don't forget that I was very generous in Exar's favor throughout the procedure you see above. Prove me wrong if you can.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Tell me where The Force has been converted to ANY SI unit whatsoever. Tell me if energy from another source is increased linearly, exponentially, logarithmically, or etc. Tell me where The Force has been referenced in Joules, Newtons, Watts, or ANY such form of energy.

When ever you see something move and you know at least two variables for the object, you can easily calculate the energy used on the object.

Force drain certainly appears to work in a linear motion.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Here, I'll make it simple for you: It hasn't. So let's throw around 375 planets because it seems like this godly number! Yay.

I already calculated every thing out very simply above. The 375 number is from the DN books, as is Raynar having the full power of the Hive behind him.

Originally posted by Illustrious
And what kind of tactic is this? Because Luke beat someone that Kun didn't, it's supposed to be evidence for something?

It's evidence because Luke defeated someone who exerted more power then Exar has.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Okay... Kun froze tens of thousands of sentient lifeforms of various alien species, can Luke do the same?

1. Logically he can, as Joruus C'baoth is much, much weaker then Luke, yet Joruus could freeze tens of thousands of sentient life forms. Furthermore, Joruus could do more then just freeze them, he could control them as well.

Originally posted by Illustrious
And Kyp Durron could do the same. Could he beat down Exar?

1. Kyp Durron didn't nearly as easily as Luke did. Furthermore, that is the known extent of Kyp's power, but is not the apex of Luke's power.

2. Kyp probably couldn't take Exar.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Aleema had superior illusions to Luke, could she beat him?

1. This is a false statement, Illustrious, Aleema didn't have better illusions then Luke. Luke could create fully funtional ships through the force while masking his own ship with the force and Luke could also hide an entire planet with the force. That is far beyond anything Aleema has done.

2. Only the Fallanassi have demonstrated a high enough level of illusion making to make it effective in a battle, so it wouldn't matter one way or the other. Unlike being able to control a black hole, this wouldn't matter in a fight. I'll explain in the next paragraph.

Originally posted by Illustrious
And what the hell does controlling a black hole have anything to do with him engaging in combat with Exar?

Do you know how Luke controlled it? He used telekinesis. Having telekinesis that is strong enough to manipulate black holes would be helpful in a fight, don't ya think?

Originally posted by Illustrious
And then he struggled with the fake overlord. Yay, let's correlate random Vong Henchman #47 and proclaim him Artoo now. Tell me, how strong was each individual Vong he hacked through? Tell me, how are they much stronger than a Massassi who could go toe to toe with a Jedi, and was even shown to floor a pissed off Jedi with a single punch?

1. Shimrra wasn't the brains of the operation, but he was an amazing warrior. He stood at 7.87 feet tall and had been genetically enginered by Shapers to be really strong. He was the equivalent of the DLOS in Yuuzhan Vong society.

2. The average Yuuzhan Vong warrior is very capable. They have decades of training and striving to become stronger fighters. They are naturally better warriors then humans, too. Don't forget that these are the Yuuzhan Vong who watched Shimrra's throne room. These weren't the new recruit weak Yuuzhan Vong or anything, these were the strong guys.

Originally posted by Illustrious
By this logic, Kun wouldn't need to fight off the Vong, he'd just freeze them and gallivant his way through their ranks.

You forget that Exar can't affect Yuuzhan Vong with the force, therefor he can't freeze them.

Originally posted by Illustrious
And did Luke have access to Sith Magic? Did he get Sadow's notes? Did he have someone as powerful as Freedon Nadd teaching him stuff? Did he demonstrate such a meteoric rise to the top as Exar did?

But of course, it's as simple as number of years trained and this intangible thing of "restricted" vs. "unrestricted" access, right?

How will Sith Magic help Exar in a fight? How will Sadow's notes help Exar in a fight?

Is having a powerful teacher like Nadd more important then having a teacher like Yoda or Obi-wan who is actually good at teaching?

What does Exar's rise to the top have to do with anything?

A lot of it comes down to how long either of them had to train and what level of knowledge they were allowed to see.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Uh huh, because I see a lot of proof of that in your post.

There is just as much proof in my post as there is in yours.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Yes, again, let's take my opinion and make it the status quo.

I'm sorry, but beams from hands that rip through walls and giant beasts > ambiguous emerald lightning that kills Vong.

Let me quote you, as I think what you said would fit nicely here, "Uh huh, because I see a lot of proof of that in your post."

Don't assume that green lightning is the extent of Luke's powers, because it isn't and U have already proven that.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Freezing the senate [b]while beating down on Vodo > manipulating a black hole that was repeated by Kyp Durron and would have no bearing on a versus fight anyway. [/B]

I'll quote you again, "Uh huh, because I see a lot of proof of that in your post." Prove up.

Freezing the Senate won't have any bearing on a vs. fight.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Really, you established this how? Because you managed to say "unrestricted" instead of "restricted"?

That is part of it, yes, but they both had access to knowledge for about the same amount of time.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Where was Kun's age established? Why would the narrator mention that he had more knowledge than he could ever use if he didn't have knowledge?

1. Can you think of a better age for Exar?

2. Exar had more knowledge avaliable to him then he could ever use. He didn't know all of that knowledge. Luke also had more knowledge then he could ever use, but it's how much of that knowledge that he actually knew that counts.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Did Luke ever have Sadow's notes and other Sith teachings? Oh wait, because those Sith were total weaklings!

Like I said before, how will Sadow's notes help Exar is a vs. fight? How will "other Sith teachings" help Exar in a vs. fight?

Originally posted by Illustrious
Not one of your points didn't contain pseudomath or a non sequitur. Next?

Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Where do you think that I used pseudomath or a non sequitur and provide evidence that shows why my point contains pseudomath or non sequitur.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Can this beam kill a force user? You damn well believe it. Unless a force users skin is that much more consistent than temple walls, Massassi, and a Sith Wyrm, not to mention that it killed Nadd's spirit.

I've already shown that Luke can defend against it, as he defended himself from Raynar, who had more power.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Yet you argue that Glentract and his feat wars is logical. Right...

The fact of the matter is that the beams Kun shot showed more destructive power that's applicable to a versus fight than what Luke has shown, emerald lightning or not.

Using feats only degenerates into feat wars if there is not a point behind mentioning that feat. Every feat I mentioned has a purpose behind it.

Good old uninformed Illustrious. I've alerady shown that Luke can generate more power then Exar, as I have shown that Luke overpowered a guy who had more power then Exar. Prove me wrong if you can.

Originally posted by Illustrious
When have I stated "Kun's better I don't want to hear anything else" at all? Much less the past two days. In fact, if anything, Luke's argument is based on hyperbole or non sequitur.

Just because you say it doesn't make it true. You can claim that things in-universe characters said about Luke are hyperbole all you want, until you irrefutably prove that it's hyperbole, you have sohwn yourself willing to use poor logic.

Furthermore, show where you think I used hyperbole of non sequitur and prove why it is hyperbole or non sequitor.

Originally posted by Illustrious
"Luke can swing his saber like it's 20 blades!!" And how effective is each of those 20 blades?

Effective enough to cut down thousands of fanatical warriors who have spent decades becoming the best fighters they can be.

Originally posted by Illustrious
"Luke can control a black hole." And this is relevant how?

It shows that Luke has extremely powerful TK. A quick force push with the force to control a black hole behind it would be very helpful in a fight.

Originally posted by Illustrious
"Luke beat someone with the combined power of 375 planets!" Never mind that Raynar was the "Joiner" King, so that he was able to integrate the Killiks into his mind; it was never expressed that all of their combined force potential physically manifested itself in his TK.

The great debator Illustrious is debating from ignorance. Raynar most certainly did have the power of 375 planets, let me quote what Faunus said on this back at Eod: When he gets up to Raynar again, or UnuThul as he's called by the Killiks, he is Force-pushed again. But this time, he stands firm and counters with his own surge of Force energy, steeling himself against UnuThul's attack. He doesn't budge. In that same paragraph, it is stated that UnuThul had the full potential of the Hive behind him; meaning that essentially, the entire Killik Hive's Force power was used in a single Force push. And unless I'm gravely mistaken, the Hive at that point had taken 375 planets under its control.

In a nutshell, the combined power of every member of the Hive over a span of 375 planets was used against Luke, and he shrugged it off.

Looks like you are completely wrong.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Those arguments are BS. And if you are as logical as you claim, you'd see it.

BS how? I suggest you make some better arguments next time.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, you can't simply assume as much because it was never DEMONSTRATED as such. Luke never used it on a force user. Hell, he never even used it on a human. Like I said, it could have been specifically designed to kill a VONG, not humans or other species of force users.

Did Exar ever use his attack against a human? Perhaps it was engineered to destroy Massassi and spirits. Of course I don't believe that, but it's just as possible as Luke having an attack that only works against Vong. Why? Because Luke dDID NOT have Vongsense. He could not affect that Vong with the force. Only Jacen Solo and Tahiri could do that and they could only do it because they had some Vong tissue meshed with their own, allowing them to use the Yuuzhan Vong version of midiclorians to use the force on Vong. Luke didn't have any Vong tissue meshed with his own, so it is impossible for Luke to use Vongsense.

Originally posted by Illustrious
I didn't assume they would work on Luke.

I stated how powerful those blasts are. It's up to the Luke supporters to prove that Luke can block them. It's not up to me to prove that Luke can't block them, that's asking me to prove a negative. So if a Luke supporter wants to prove that Luke can block said beams, have at it, that'll be fun.

Already done earlier in my post. Let me refresh your memory just to be safe. My earlier math, much of which is from stardestroyer.net(a very reputable source) shows that Luke overpowered someone who had 40% more power then we've ever seen Exar use. That includes Exar's instakill.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Kun has never indicated the need to, so he's penalized for this?

Obi-Wan as a padawan showed force speed. Could he beat Kun because Kun never showed any force speed? Especially considering Force Speed is part of the training for Jedi, just like resisting TK.

Obi-wan has never demonstrated using force speed in lightsaber combat. Luke and DE Sidious are the only ones we know of who have done that. And I think that using force speed would have been very helpful against Vodo in the Senate CHamber.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, I was defending that against people who said it somehow wasn't effective.

Borbarad even went so far as to say it was a spell and was ritualized, like some fantasy novel or something. That was never indicated.

I doubt that the spell was ritualized, as if it was it would go against both the Jedi and Sith view of the force, but not the Dathormir force views. Who cares about the Dathomir though, they didn't even exist in Exar's time.

How will it be effective in a fight though? Seriously, being able to control thousands of minds isn't going to help you use a lightsaber against a sole being.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You're missing the point. I picked a side in this debate, and I made my points.

I argued that because Kun created his own style and beat down the best of an order of thousands (Not hundreds like Luke's order) of force users with apparent ease is more impressive than Luke's lightsaber feats and unknown form. It's up to the Luke supporters to counter this point.

1. Luke has been stated to use form five. Just thought you should know. We also know that Luke prefers a two handed style, but he can still fight very effectively with a single hand style.

2. Exar beat down the best of a Jedi Order of thousands. Impressive, yes.

Luke, however, beat down the best of more groups.

Luke beat down the best of the Shadow Academy.
Luke beat down DE Sidious, the guy who could beat down the best of a Jedi Order numbering in the thousands.
Luke beat down the of the Yuuzhan Vong. He wasn't the best of thousands, not millions, nor tens of billions. Luke beat down the best guy out of over a hundred billion Yuuzhan Vong.

Consider your point countered.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, I never said I assumed that he made it just for the Vong. I said because it was never elaborated, that was a distinct possibility. The Luke supporters were arguing that Luke could just simply fire off that lightning over and over again and win the fight that way. There's no evidence to suggest that's the case.

I stated above that Luke didn't have Vongsense, therefor he COULDN'T make something that didn't work within the normal spectrum of the force. Therefor it would work on anyone. By work, I mean they wouldn't be naturally immune to it, not that they couldn't potentially bock it.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Yes, the amulet does feed of his rage and dark side energies. But in a versus fight, he'd be pretty pissed pretty fast.

As I have already shown, Luke is powerful enough to block it.

Originally posted by Illustrious
So Obi-Wan couldn't have swung his lightsaber at something while he was speeding? Kyle Katarn used force speed and slashed a reborn in a cutscene. Does that mean Kyle Katarn has demonstrated a superior feat because he could fight while force speeding?

There are different levels of force speed, you know. We could see Obi-wan move when he was using it. We wouldn't have been Luke if he was using it.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Also, the comics show afterimages of Kun's saber. Those are typically used to show that both Vodo and Kun are moving very fast. Just because he doesn't have his own play-by-play commentary that "he's moving too fast" doesn't mean he was moving slowly.

If the crowd couldn't see Exar move, why would he have kept them focused on him?

Originally posted by Illustrious
It certainly doesn't show Kun as inferior to Luke. The Luke supporters have not countered that Luke even can block Kun's blasts.

Yes, I have shown that Luke can block Kun's blasts.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Here's what the Luke supporters assume:

Luke can block Kun's blasts even without evidence to assume as much. Luke can beat Kun with emerald lightning, even with no evidence to assume he can. They assume the best case scenario for Luke and the worst-case for Kun.

I have shown that Luke can block it. See above.

I haven't argued Luke can beat Exar just because of his emerald lightning, just that it would potentially work against him if Luke tried it on him and Exar didn't try to block it.

During many of my arguments I have given Exar the benefit of the doubt, while assuming a worst-case scenario for Luke. See my points on Raynar's power and Exar's power above.

Originally posted by Illustrious
So why don't you argue that those people are verbally fellating Luke and are being illogical? You sure seem very one-sided with your attacks.

If anyone is being one-sided here it's you. Logic hasn't totally abandoned you, but a fair, unbaised view seems to have.

Originally posted by Illustrious
The difference is that Kun's blast has shown the ability to tear through Sith Wyrms, massassi, and temple walls while Luke's emerald lightning has shown the ability to down a Vong and that's it. There's no evidence that it works on a force user at all.

1. You're still assuming that Luke hasn't done anything more impressive then green lightning. That is wrong.

2. Exar's attack is weaker then Raynar, a guy that Luke overpowered. See above for proof.

3. It can't work only on a Vong as Luke cannot have Vongsense as he is physically incapable of it.

Originally posted by Illustrious
For me, a high energy beam that feeds off the user's anger and doubles in power with each pulse is superior to Luke's lightning. It's my prevaling opinion, I never said everyone has to agree with it. But I refuse to accept how anyone would argue that Luke can simply instakill powerful force users with this "green sparks" that has never shown to instakill any force user.

Exar's energy beam may be better then Luke's green lightning. Doesn't prove Exar is better then Luke.

For the it only working on Vong part: It can't work only on a Vong as Luke cannot have Vongsense as he is physically incapable of it.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You have someone claiming that freezing the entire senate wasn't that impressive (a la Fishy), even though it was never shown to have been done before or since, when was the last time someone froze even a few people?

Joruus froze people on a scale that is up there with Exar. Joruus is weak next to Luke.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You have someone claiming that Kun's spell and sith magic are "ritualized" and therefore need great concentration or preparation (a la Borbarad), which is not supported and even proven AGAINST considering Aleema fired "Sith Magic" on the spot.

I agree with you here.

Originally posted by Illustrious
I agree it's pretty impressive. But so is downing the top members of the a large (thousands even after many of the masters were killed), martial Jedi Order within seconds, one of which while he had the entire Senate frozen. Then he casually tossed a Jedi Knight aside as she wasn't even worth his time.

I see it as Kun having the more impressive 1 on 1 showings, which is what this fight is about.

Let me quote my answer for Exar downing the top guys in the Jedi Order: Luke beat down the best of the Shadow Academy.
Luke beat down DE Sidious, the guy who could beat down the best of a Jedi Order numbering in the thousands.
Luke beat down the of the Yuuzhan Vong. He wasn't the best of thousands, not millions, nor tens of billions. Luke beat down the best guy out of over a hundred billion Yuuzhan Vong.

Originally posted by Illustrious
So yes, I would put the beams' destructive power on a high level than the lightning.

Agreed. The beams are more powerful the Luke's lightning alone.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, physical manifestations DO work. It's the abstract manifestations, such as telekinesis or mind trick that do not work. The amulet blast as a force power or not was never explicitly mentioned. We do know it can tear right through flesh and stone, so it's very plausible, if not even prohibitively likely that it can go through Vong armor and flesh.

Why doesn't lightning work against them? It is a physical manifestation as well.

Dang, that took me nearly an hour to write. At least I was watching TV while doing it.

Good points Glentract good points. I wouldn't have thought to bring up a lot of that stuff and you make a clear argument for DN Luke's force powers being above Kun's. I didn't quote get all that math because to tell you the truth, at this point in the day all those numbers just gave me a headache.. But measuring Kun's blasts is kinda difficult although you did bring up good points as to why Luke can defend it..

The Chu'unthor has whatever knowledge that was saved from Ossus on it as well as an additional several thousand years of knowledge. Do you really think that the Jedi didn't re-invent almost, if not everything, lost on Ossus by then? It's not like the Masters who knew the knowledge were dead, just the books that the knowledge had previously written on had been destroyed. The Jedi didn't really lose much at Ossus in the long term.
Overall good arguments, and that thing you wrote above could be true, but it's mostly speculation. I don't think anything on Ossus was reinvented, as we see it being a deserted planet during DE.

How is most of what I wrote speculation? Logical assumption, perhaps, but not random speculation.

No just that paragraph, since we see that Ossus is in ruins in DE and the library looks as if it hasn't been touched for 4,000 years. I suppose my opinion is speculation also

Good job thinking that I won't be able to get myself the original text

Oh yeah. I wonder where this idea entered my head...

You do notice that English isn't my mothertongue and so I don't own the orginal books with makes it quite hard to provide some actual quote - don't you ?

Huh. What a crazy coincidence.

In the end of chapter 32 of Dark Apprentice (when Luke gets attacked) it says (in both the German and English version) that Luke wanted to strike back and what stopped him was that (when he already was attacked by Kyp) Kun's spirit started attacking him too.

So ups. As it seem Luke was still superior to Kyp and since Kun's spirit never tried to attack Luke (he tried to seduce him, yes, but he never tried to attack him) when we know that he wanted Luke dead it seems as Kun's spirit on his own was also inferior compared to Luke.

Neat, now I'm going to provide the actual quotes:

"Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadow of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body...

...Against the full might of Kyp Durron and the forbidden weapons of the long-dead spirit of Exar Kun, even a Jedi Master such as Luke Skywalker could not prevail."

Well. Looks like that doesn't say what you claimed it to say. The fact that Luke tried to strike back means... precisely dick. It reads nothing to the effect of, "Well it would've succeeded had Exar Kun not attacked as well," nor does it read "Luke could have taken either of them, one on one." It doesn't even state that Luke is superior to either of them.

QED. Nice job making things up.

nd yes...it says that Kun's and Kyp's combined strength was too much for Luke when anything we have leads to the suggestion that Luke was infact superior to both of them. But nevermind IKC...

Anything we have? What is this mysterious "anything?" I'd be inclined to agree with Kyp's case, maybe.

Citing another vague, unnamed source? Making things up again? Nice job.

Nice job interpreting scenarios in favor for Kun. Kun tried to seduce Luke to join him but he never tried to attack Luke before Luke's spirit was seperated from his body when we know that he - in fact - wanted Luke dead. Or is "trying to seduce somebody" now called "confrontation" or "attack" ?

Indeed, English is not your first language.

con·fron·ta·tion
n.

1. The act of confronting or the state of being confronted, especially a meeting face to face.
2.
1. A conflict involving armed forces: a nuclear confrontation.
2. Discord or a clash of opinions and ideas: an age of ideological confrontation.
3. A focused comparison: an essay that brought elements of biography, autobiography, and general European history into powerful, meaningful confrontation.

Definition 1 seems to apply. Confrontation does not mean attack, Nai.

Yeeeha. Nice job not knowing what you are talking about. So Nadd killed Ommin - after Ulic cut down Ommin's exosceleton of course which turned Ommin into a glibberish and helpless ball of meat, who lay on the ground having no bones screaming for Nadd's support - as can be seen here:

Oh, and his loss of an exoskeleton suddenly means he can't use the Force to defend or attack anymore? Nice job interpreting things in favor of diminishing Nadd!

Point: Ommin could pwn and hold hostage Arca Jeth, quite a powerful Jedi Master. Nadd could instakill Ommin. Nadd as a spirit, therefore, is more powerful than Ommin and displayed a similar feat to Exar's (Gantoris).

Then he crushed Exar's bones at a point where Exar wasn't able to use the force. Great deal. Force heal was Luke in a state of unconciousness in the Calista trilogy. Also great deal.

It's not the fact that he crushed his bones, Nai. It's that he caused the avalanche, again a feat very similar to some of Kun's.

And you seem to forget that Nadd healed Kun fully within a matter of seconds, whereas Jedi or Light-side healing requires a trance and a long amount of time.

And Nadd floored Vodo ? Yeah right:

He did it while Vodo was using some nice part of his power trying to protect or heal Exar. Nice job giving a Jedi who is focused on an entire different thing an attack which just floors the Jedi. What a display of power.

Good job providing the scan and then not looking at it. So he surprised Vodo? Is that why he gave a nice long spiel before attacking him?

So I guess Vodo's "focus" precludes him from seeing and hearing a big red spirit pop out of nowhere and start yammering at him? Sorry, logic dictates the opposite. Nadd floored Vodo.

Just that Nadd never did anything on par with Exar's spirit later. But nevermind...

Oh, if anything some of his feats were greater. But it's apparent you can't be reasoned with.

Lmao. No apparently Kyp Durron isn't any good in the grand scheme of things. He's just the best non-Skywalker ever appearing in the EU but that of course means nothing.

Uh, what?

Okay, so going by your ridiculous claim, he can take the following:

Marka Ragnos
Naga Sadow
Exar Kun
Ludo Kressh
Freedon Nadd
Simus
Ajunta Pall
DE Sidious
etc.

Oh wait, he's not that good? Right. Thank you.

He has received knowledge from Exar Kun directly (but I guess we simply ignore that)

And then proceeded to renounce said knowledge. Oh, but don't let plot get in the way! By this logic he pwns all because he once flew the Suncrusher.

and he has beaten everybody else in lightsaber duels (including Kyle Katarn who was not exactly trained by Luke) as far as I remember.

Ah yes, what skill! He beat a bunch of people trained by the strikeout champion of the Light side! As for Katarn, how is a guy that finds a lightsaber in a garage suddenly a god of the weapon?

Place this in context with the Jedi of the Old Republic, who didn't have to pick up techniques from the dead scraps of an order that had been wiped out...

But let us just ignore that and assume he's a weakling anyway.

In the grand scheme of things? Yep.

Then suddenly "force lightning" is a physical manifestation - can you please give me the situation where it was used to destroy dead objects ? It didn't seem to have much effect on the ceiling when Dooku had to turn his own lightning away, Yoda had turned back on him.

Dooku shoots lightning at Yoda. Yoda absorbs it and shoots it back. Dooku reflects it off his hand up to the ceiling where it proceeds to blow something up.

Yep. I'd say that's a physical manifestation there. Go watch Episode II.

QED.

In fact the Vong were immune to force lightning as people tried to use it on them and failed - but we also can just ignore that because that would not be in favor of IKC, right ?

Who tried to use it, again?

And that doesn't prove immunity, by the way. They may have been merely grounded or the materials they were wearing may have been poor conductors.

Whenever a Massassi is shown to take several hits from a lightsaber and then beat the shit out of a Jedi and moves fast enough to rip apart a Noghri assasination squad in the matter of seconds I will rate them as good as YV's. What matters is the thread a being is to a Jedi - by your logic Boba Fett with all of his weapons is less dangerous than a single Massassi because Fett can't floor Jedi without his weapons.

Let's see, rating warrior skill here:

Massassi - able to floor Jedi with its bare hands, without getting hit, without wearing armor. Can use the Dark Side, especially to guide its weapons.

Vong - Able to beat a Jedi using a weapon that can block lightsabers after getting hit on its lightsaber-resistant armor multiple times.

I'd say the Massassi has greater skill, there. I'd also submit that said massassi would beat the shit out of a vong.

Of course...my assertion that Odan was weakened is unsupported when we see him focusing on a powerful attack before getting pwned (which apparently didn't give him much time to focus on defence at the same point) and he just told Nomi that he defeated Ancient Sith in his early days when he's just explaining his failure with "I'm old...I can't stop it [the evil]".

Uh, Odan-Urr does not have a "force shield" that he has to drop in order to attack. I don't know what fantasy novel you're pulling your assertions out of, it may not even be from literature, because they smell of shit. Provide some evidence next time.

So yes, your assertion that Odan was weakened is unsupported. So he can focus on a powerful attack... but he's weakened at the same time? How about some logic and consistency?

And yes, he told Nomi how he helped defeat the Ancient Sith. This suddenly translates to him being weakened when Kun beats him? Oh, that must be it. Nai can't be ****ed to believe that Kun's actually too powerful for Odan to handle, Odan must have been weakened despite the lack of any evidence whatsoever for that assertion!

And who's he explaining his failure to, Nai? It is not evident that he's explaining his failure at all. This isn't Star Wars According to Nai, I could just as easily make the unsupported claim that he's running narration on his own life.

Oh great. Because we have nothing to even suggest that Luke's students did use the temple built by a Sith Lord they surely must have done that when they didn't know anything about the temples or their function. Yap...sure

Except we do. Observe, logic:

1) The event in question happened after the JA trilogy.
2) Kyp Durron learned, during the JA trilogy, how the temples could focus power. (Evidence: Dark Apprentice paperback, page 331 - "Kyp had no interest in reqacquainting himself with the other weak Jedi trainees or even with the misguided and cowardly Master Skywalker. He simply needed access to the Massassi temples Exar Kun had designed as focal points for concentrating the power of the Sith."😉
3) It is not a stretch, then, to believe that Kyp Durron passed on this knowledge to the other Jedi after the JA trilogy was over.

QED.

And inanimate objects cannot be inherently light or Dark Side ? I wonder if you just did miss Naga Sadow's blade, Tulak Hord's mask and Kun's own amulets which could only be used by Dark Siders (especially Kun's amulet is cleary powered by hate).

I wonder if you just tried to use gameplay as canon. Oh right, you did! Okay, by that logic Kun wins because his stats are second only to Marka Ragnos in the tabletop rules.

Regarding the amulet, the blasts may be powered by anger (not hate) and indeed it may have encouraged his anger, but Kun's anger had already existed by the time it clamped onto his arm. Before that, it was just a hunk of metal and a jewel. It is not inherently light or dark side. For all we know, it has properties that can be used with the Light.

Oh...apparently he was the only being on the entire planet who knew about the power of the temples and the way they work - in contrary to Luke and his students. But let us again just ignore that little fact...

But let's ignore the little fact that, even 4000 years previously, Jedi were able to sense the power being focused in the Temples already. Let's assume the worst for the Jedi, as well, and assume that they wouldn't be able to figure out how to use something of that nature even though Kyp Durron was able to do it without any practice whatsoever.

Good thinking, Nai.

Since Luke's students and Luke himself are never been shown to use the temples and Kun is the only person on the planet who did knew about the temples it's quite save to assume that Kun is the only being who did use them.

Except because absence of proof is not proof of absence, it is sound to assume that they did sense the properties of the temples and could use them just as Kun may have.

By your logic, Kun was never "shown" to use the temples either. Great work with the self-ownage, Nai.

Because we know that Jedi in that era weren't trained for a long amount of time as we see. And when Kun uses Vodo's holocron Vodo even tells him that he needs "a few years of training" before being ready for the hidden knowledge stored within it ? So apparently he didn't have much training (in terms of "time"😉 before the events in DLotS happen, right - and we know that he had just a year between his submission to the Dark Side and his defeat by the Jedi above Yavin 4. Maybe reading the sources would be a good idea ?

As we see? As we see where, Nai? In your mind again?

So Vodo's assertion that he needs "a few years of training" suddenly means that he's had practically no training up to that point? Really Nai, get a better grasp of English. You're operating under a false premise.

Reading and understanding the sources without applying a mountain of bias is a great idea, Nai.

LOL. This is great. So Kun with some years of training can be better than people who used a weapon for 6 centuries - but Luke can't be above somebody who trained with that weapon for a few decades. Allright. We know that Sidious was superior to add least Maul but of course he's weaker in DE - having a younger body and more control over the force, right ? I guess the concept of "logic" could never enter your head when Kun is involved, IKC...

Kun with an unknown amount of formal training with live instructors can be better than his master who used the weapon for six centuries given what we know about the speed at which he picks up skills.

Luke, however, cannot automatically said to be that good. Why? No formal training, no live instructors, baseball bat swings, etc. Luke's case is wildly different from Kun's. Good job being blind.

Yes, we know Sidious was superior to Maul in lightsaber abilities, during the PT. However, the combination of the facts that we have no evidence that he's kept up his saber practice and he got his hand hewn off by a farmboy who was continuing his reign as the strikeout king means it's proper to assume that his skills deteriorated, despite the fact that he's in a younger body.

I guess the concept of "unsupported assumptions" never enters your head, period.

No, it's just your personal opinion. So tell me how somebody who was curpstombed by Exar is widely above somebody who has 300 years more training, can dodge attacks from three lightsaber wielding opponents at once (effortless) and couldn't get defeated by a lightsaber prodigy with his own style and 5 decades of training and a Sith lord using the "refinement of lightsaber vs lightsaber fighting" for 8 decades. I'm curious.

No, it's well-established logic an evidence. Click the link next time, pull your head out of the sand.

I'll get it for you:

Originally posted by IKC
Vodo vs. Yoda in ten seconds:

Vodo: Most revered Jedi master in a martial time period, greater use of the force shown during said time period. Taller than Yoda, has a reach advantage, and may have an exoskeleton which would give him a tremendous strength advantage. Lost to Exar Kun, but managed to manifest himself four thousand years later to help banish Kun's half-mad, weakened spirit.

Yoda: Most revered Jedi master in a peaceful time period, Niman widely practiced. Stalemated ROTS Sidious, lost due to terrain.

To exaggerate, Vodo was the top dog of a group of badasses, and Yoda was top of a group of incompetants.

ust because ROTS Sidious was lucky against him or the KotoR era Jedi appear to be stronger than the PT era ones in general ? Ah yeah...nice "proof" there.

First, they're not KOTOR Jedi. They're TOTJ.

Second, they are stronger. They don't just "appear" to be.

No he didn't. If you just would understand the concept of freezing persons who - as the narrator puts it - were forced to watch and not to react you would see that Kun did just freeze them but did not control them. The entire meaning of frozen is that the didn't move when you assume that Kun made them move their heads to focus on his actions which is - oh...what an incidence - never stated in the comic.

And if you understood the concept of logic you'd realize that the odds of everyone already looking at what Kun wanted them to look at are prohibitive (meaning the odds against it are so large that it may as well be impossible). Ergo, whichever spectators were not looking at it were made to look at it.

And if you understood the concept of absence of proof is not proof of absence you'd realize that because we have the above premise, it is proper to assume that it happened despite the fact that it's never shown.

It's also never shown that Kun took a shit. Did he not take shits, Nai?

We see that he moved to the Chancellor and used his amulet but he didn't use it of course because IKC didn't want him to use it. And of course he controlled everybody in the senate - which was why the Chancellor tried to attack him, right ? And of course they just show Kun using his amulet because...yeah...why they do it when he didn't need it at all ? So while I have something to suggest that Kun had to use his amulet you have nothing to suggest something different. Looks like "evidence" is > "IKC's personal interpretation"...

We see that he moved to the Chancellor and grabbed his head. We saw the amulet glow during this.

We also saw Odan-Urr glow when he tried to attack Exar Kun. Is this "evidence" of him using an artifact, Nai?

I'll spell it out for you: A glow does not indicate use of an artifact. Your evidence is nil.

Yes, we know he controlled everyone in the Senate - the omniscient narrator states such. See the above point for further detail. I love how you refuse to even entertain the concept that Kun may have released the Chancellor from his control as he ascended the podium and just assume that he never controlled him in the first place despite that your assumption contradicts the omniscient narrator.

Oh wait. Just before you have told me that the force can be seen as "physical force" but now you tell me that you can't compare the power of a blast from Kun's amulet to the power of a turbolaser because a turbolaser seems to be more powerful and that would be quite destructive for your entire argument when you suggest that Luke would be able to turn away turbolaser fire ? So suddenly the force can't be compared to physical powers any longer ? And you accuse me of using double-standarts. Bwahahaha....

Except I'd argue (and have argued) that the blasts are as destructive as a turbolaser, Nai. Nice job with the self-ownage, again.

Nice job with the narrow-mindedness, too. Something's destructive potential is not its only facet. A large enough bomb would have roughly the same destructive effect on a planet that the Death Star's superlaser has - are they suddenly the same in nature?

The answer, of course, is no. QED.

I was asking how he would make the blasts from the amulets fast enough to hit somebody who is moving faster than the beams. He just can't. And for the "he can't hardly control it" stuff. He did never use that amulet again even in situations where he clearly wanted some people to die (Ulic when he first confronted him) he didn't bother to blast them away but instead used his lightsaber or other force powers. Why ?
And I fail to see why his ability to control the power of the amulet should increase when he doesn't bother to use it. For the other amulet: Why would Kun construct another amulet that does exactly the same like the first when he didn't even use the first any longer ? I don't see any logic behind that.

Really Nai? He can't? That's why we have no clue how fast the beams travel, right? Oh wait, I didn't want to step all over the nonsense that passes for your "point."

As for the "zomg, Kun can't control it!" bullshit, Illustrious' point still stands undefeated:

Originally posted by Illustrious
Does it matter that Luke controlled a black hole once? Does it matter that Luke could barely cloak a ship without getting tired in DN? Does it matter that Luke could use Emerald lightning once?

This logic is bullshit, Fishy, and if you have [b]any respect for debating conventions, you'd know it.

Even as a newly converted dark-sider, he was still able to control it. So why exactly wouldn't he be able to control it when he has gained a whole crapload of knowledge and power?

And then seconds later, he uses the amulet to destroy Freedon Nadd.

So by your logic, Luke cloaking a ship will never happen again, because he was really tired after doing it.

Uhh... no. A Kun in battle said that he couldn't control it, that he could only direct it.

The only mention the narrator says is that "with each pulse of his anger, it doubles in power."

In fact, he is shown to be perfectly fine immediately after the Sith beast was destroyed.

Yep, he feared the power so much that he used it again on Nadd, and he found/built another damn amulet![/B]

And even when we just suggest that he can infact control the amulet at the hight of his power and if he can do the same thing with the other amulet the beams are still to slow to hit a force user trying to dodge them and we have no proof that Luke wouldn't be able to turn them away.

How, exactly, are you arriving at this conclusion that the beams are slow?

I highly suggest you look up "unsupported assumption" before your next post, Nai.

We have no proof of a negative? Great job. Sorry, Nai, the onus is on you to prove that Luke would be able to turn them away.

And if Raynar - who is inferior to Luke - can turn away the turbolaser fire from an entire Stardestroyer I don't see why Luke should have problems doing the same with 2 beams which seem to put out less energy than a turbolaser shot (as we can see when Kun "blasts" the temple wall while a SD's turbolaser is able to vaporize complete asteroids).

Except they show about the same amount of power as turbolaser fire, given that the temple is blown to pieces and on fire where Kun's blasts struck.

And you're assuming again that because their destructive power is similar that means they must be similar in all facets. See my above analogy for debunking.

Great novel IKC, I won't insult you anymore, maybe youre right about us not being able to prove that Luke can stop Kun's blasts but at least we do have evidence Luke can stop a powerful blast like that, while there is absolutely nothing that suggests Kun can stop the lightning so again, you have yet to make a conclusive argument for Kun>Luke.

hmm

Originally posted by IKC
"Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadow of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body...

...Against the full might of Kyp Durron and the forbidden weapons of the long-dead spirit of Exar Kun, even a Jedi Master such as Luke Skywalker could not prevail."

Well. Looks like that doesn't say what you claimed it to say. The fact that Luke tried to strike back means... precisely dick. It reads nothing to the effect of, "Well it would've succeeded had Exar Kun not attacked as well," nor does it read "Luke could have taken either of them, one on one." It doesn't even state that Luke is superior to either of them.

QED. Nice job making things up.

LOOOOOL.
Yeah...Luke triest to strike back "but the shadow of Exar Kun joined the attack" - so what was keeping Luke from striking back ? Exar Kun joining the attack maybe ? No ?

"Against the full might of Kyp Durron and [...] Exar Kun"... so it wasn't their combined power that brought Luke down ? Allright IKC...

Anything we have? What is this mysterious "anything?" I'd be inclined to agree with Kyp's case, maybe.

Kyp gave Luke anything he had but couldn't defeat Luke on his own.
Exar Kun never tried to attack Luke before that attack together with Kyp although he wanted Luke dead obviously. So both Kyp and Kun's spirit couldn't take Luke on their own. What's so hard to understand there ?

Definition 1 seems to apply. Confrontation does not mean attack, Nai.

No. That doesn't apply because:
a) Exar Kun had taken the shape of Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader
b) he was talking to Luke in one of Luke's dreams

And so Luke didn't have the chance to erradicate Kun...which was what you wanted to argue, right ?

Oh, and his loss of an exoskeleton suddenly means he can't use the Force to defend or attack anymore? Nice job interpreting things in favor of diminishing Nadd!

Point: Ommin could pwn and hold hostage Arca Jeth, quite a powerful Jedi Master. Nadd could instakill Ommin. Nadd as a spirit, therefore, is more powerful than Ommin and displayed a similar feat to Exar's (Gantoris).

Haha, IKC. I thought you have read the comics ?
Ommin was on the ground and screaming for Nadd's protection - so he was clearly unable to protect himself. And instead of helping him, Nadd did kill him. So Nadd did kill a helpless Ommin while Exar Kun fried Gantoris who did try to attack him.

It doesn't matter that Ommin pwned Arca before and floored Cay and Nomi just a few panels earlier - after Ulic did cut down his exoskeleton he was helpless.

Good job providing the scan and then not looking at it. So he surprised Vodo? Is that why he gave a nice long spiel before attacking him?

So I guess Vodo's "focus" precludes him from seeing and hearing a big red spirit pop out of nowhere and start yammering at him? Sorry, logic dictates the opposite. Nadd floored Vodo.

I didn't say that Nadd surprised Vodo or that Vodo's focus precludes him from seeing or listening to Nadd. But Vodo was obviously worried about Exar and tried to help his former student with the force - so I guess he didn't have much concentration and force power left to protect himself against Nadd. And all Nadd did was floor him - that's nice but not really compareable to knocking people off completely (Vodo was back on his feet moments later) or force choke 10 force users at once.

Okay, so going by your ridiculous claim, he can take the following:

I was talking about Jedi which should have been clear...

And then proceeded to renounce said knowledge. Oh, but don't let plot get in the way! By this logic he pwns all because he once flew the Suncrusher.

Did you even read a single book of the NJO series ? Kyp remained on the edge of the Dark Side - apparently he did want to use Dark Side powers against the Vong. In fact he used force lightning to kill a Leviathan (Fishy posted a picture somewhere). He didn't renounce the knowledge - if anything he didn't agree with the Sith philosophy any longer.

Ah yes, what skill! He beat a bunch of people trained by the strikeout champion of the Light side! As for Katarn, how is a guy that finds a lightsaber in a garage suddenly a god of the weapon?

Ah yes...that bunch of people didn't have any lightsaber skills of course just because IKC likes it that way. Katarn was just the best mercenary in the SW galaxy...he tooled Boba Fett before he even was able to use the force. He went to an entire Imperial base and killed everybody except a single person - without using the force. Then he finds the lightsaber. Oh...well... Nomi Sunrider picked up a lightsaber and suddenly "handled the weapon like a master" without previous fighting experience but Kyle can't do the same with years of combat experience before, right ? Then Kyle simply destroyed 7 Dark Jedi trained by Sidious / Vader - but I guess those guys didn't have any lightsaber skills either.

Place this in context with the Jedi of the Old Republic, who didn't have to pick up techniques from the dead scraps of an order that had been wiped out...

What "context" is it you want ? Luke and his students had access to the complete knowledge of the PT Jedi Order and since he discovered an entire intact library on Ossus he had at least access to some knowledge of the KotoR time Jedi. Kyle was able to block people from the source before setting one foot in Luke's academy (which seems to be the greatest power shown by the Old Republic people). Now the people studied that knowledge for more than 2 decades which exceeds the training time Nomi, Ulic, Cay and Exar had by far. But somehow they all are next to nothing compared to that people ?

And that doesn't prove immunity, by the way. They may have been merely grounded or the materials they were wearing may have been poor conductors.

Ahahaha. You know that anything the Vong "wear" is organic material, right ? And it doesn't even matter - Luke did his emerald lightning in the same circumstance against the same people that weren't affected by force lightning.

Massassi - able to floor Jedi with its bare hands, without getting hit, without wearing armor. Can use the Dark Side, especially to guide its weapons.

Vong - Able to beat a Jedi using a weapon that can block lightsabers after getting hit on its lightsaber-resistant armor multiple times.

I'd say the Massassi has greater skill, there. I'd also submit that said massassi would beat the shit out of a vong.

How would a Massasi beat the shit out of a Vong if he can't wound the Vong (armor) while getting attacked by an amphistaff (can be used as staff, whip and sprays toxin). And again...for fighting skills: There is a nice little seen where one of the YV's (as far as I remember their warmaster) blocks a knife thrown at him by a Noghri and then wrecks 3 Nogrhi (you know what Noghri are ?) before the knife he blocked hits the ground.

So yes, your assertion that Odan was weakened is unsupported. So he can focus on a powerful attack... but he's weakened at the same time? How about some logic and consistency?

Can you use a sword and attack with it the same time you parry a blow ? If you attack you are open for another attack in the same moment. Must be hard to understand...

And yes, he told Nomi how he helped defeat the Ancient Sith. This suddenly translates to him being weakened when Kun beats him? Oh, that must be it. Nai can't be ****ed to believe that Kun's actually too powerful for Odan to handle, Odan must have been weakened despite the lack of any evidence whatsoever for that assertion!

Of course Kun was too powerful for Odan. The point is that Odan did succeed to defeat Ancient Sith with the same attack he used on Kun but he didn't manage to defeat Kun but instead was pwned easily by Kun. So either Odan was weaker than in times he faced ancient Sith or Kun was much more powerful than Ancient Sith. Your choice.

And who's he explaining his failure to, Nai? It is not evident that he's explaining his failure at all. This isn't Star Wars According to Nai, I could just as easily make the unsupported claim that he's running narration on his own life.

We know that he once stopped Ancient Sith, since he told that to Nomi, right ? We know that he isn't able to stop another Sith (Kun) in the scene mentioned. Why wasn't he able to stop Kun ? Because he was old maybe ?

I can't see why people are putting the Massassi warriors above the Vong without any logic but to diminish Luke and Kyp's accomplishments.

Originally posted by IKC Except we do. Observe, logic:

1) The event in question happened after the JA trilogy.
2) Kyp Durron learned, during the JA trilogy, how the temples could focus power. (Evidence: Dark Apprentice paperback, page 331 - "Kyp had no interest in reqacquainting himself with the other weak Jedi trainees or even with the misguided and cowardly Master Skywalker. He simply needed access to the Massassi temples Exar Kun had designed as focal points for concentrating the power of the Sith."😉
3) It is not a stretch, then, to believe that Kyp Durron passed on this knowledge to the other Jedi after the JA trilogy was over.

QED.

Nice selfownage there, IKC. Kyp "needed access to the Massassi temples" so ups - he didn't have access to the temples powers he just wanted it. So if he didn't know how to use the temples he can't pass on knowledge that he didn't have himself.

Regarding the amulet, the blasts may be powered by anger (not hate) and indeed it may have encouraged his anger, but Kun's anger had already existed by the time it clamped onto his arm. Before that, it was just a hunk of metal and a jewel. It is not inherently light or dark side. For all we know, it has properties that can be used with the Light.

If the amulets blasts are powered by anger or strong emotions a Jedi won't be able to use it - at least not to the extend Kun did it. It's as easy as that. And you really want to tell me that objects can't be "light side" or "dark side" ? That's why Aleema and Satal could feel the Dark Side energy of the Krath swords Nadd handed to them or some books they saw ? I love how items created by Sith alchemy and Sith magic are just "metal" without any special properties. Remind me ? Did Ajunta's blade keep his spirit as a "prisoner" when it was just a "piece of metal" ?

But let's ignore the little fact that, even 4000 years previously, Jedi were able to sense the power being focused in the Temples already. Let's assume the worst for the Jedi, as well, and assume that they wouldn't be able to figure out how to use something of that nature even though Kyp Durron was able to do it without any practice whatsoever.

Except because absence of proof is not proof of absence, it is sound to assume that they did sense the properties of the temples and could use them just as Kun may have.

Let's just ignore that Kyp Durron wasn't able to use the temples he just wanted to use them. Let's just ignore that all people just "felt the power of the temple" but nowehere do we see anybody (except Kun) using them. See...I would be able to recognice a nuclear bomb if I see one - that doesn't mean I would be able to activate it.

By your logic, Kun was never "shown" to use the temples either. Great work with the self-ownage, Nai.

Did you ever read "I, Jedi" ? 😉

As we see? As we see where, Nai? In your mind again?

So Vodo's assertion that he needs "a few years of training" suddenly means that he's had practically no training up to that point? Really Nai, get a better grasp of English. You're operating under a false premise.

Reading and understanding the sources without applying a mountain of bias is a great idea, Nai.

Lmao. Have a look at all persons of the era we experience as normal Jedi. Nomi Sunrider did have what amount of training ? Some years. Ulic and Cay did have what amount of training ? Again: Some years. But of course Exar was trained from infancy on - the only being in the entire Old Republic being trained from infancy on because IKC just likes it that way. Maybe you would understand that the EU writers (until the release of TPM) had the idea that Jedi training could be done in the matter of weeks / months (because of Luke in ESB / ROTJ) so that was the amount of training time they did hand to their own characters.

Kun with an unknown amount of formal training with live instructors can be better than his master who used the weapon for six centuries given what we know about the speed at which he picks up skills.

Luke, however, cannot automatically said to be that good. Why? No formal training, no live instructors, baseball bat swings, etc. Luke's case is wildly different from Kun's. Good job being blind.

Oh wait. Luke didn't have formal training ? He was just sitting on the camp fire with Yoda, right ? No live instructors ? So Yoda was a dead muppet in ESB ? Baseball bat swings ? I am the only person here that watched the entire fight between Luke and Vader in ROTJ ? He kicked Vader downstairs and parried Vaders blows (even if Vader didn't try all) - and that "baseball action" was just when he was out of his mind and in complete rage. I wonder what Kun would look like in the same situation.
And yes...the case is wildly different from Kun's since Luke's training time exceeds Exar's entire lifetime.

Yes, we know Sidious was superior to Maul in lightsaber abilities, during the PT. However, the combination of the facts that we have no evidence that he's kept up his saber practice and he got his hand hewn off by a farmboy who was continuing his reign as the strikeout king means it's proper to assume that his skills deteriorated, despite the fact that he's in a younger body.

I guess the concept of "unsupported assumptions" never enters your head, period.

It's getting better and better. So Sidious lightsaber skills suddenly got weaker because he was "out of practice" ? I wonder how he trained his "hands" in lightsaber combat. I wonder how often he trained from TPM to ROTS since he wasn't losing skill there. But his skills must have weakened because he was beaten by Luke. Stop. Luke who was judged with an "impressive" by Vader in ESB ? Luke who had 6 years of additional self-training and combat experience between ROTJ and DE ? And you talking about "unsupported assumptions" - I wonder what you call your own "OMG Sidioush musht be weaker than in the PT despite having a younger body and more force powars bcuz Luke did beat him" then ? Logic ?

We know that Sidious couldn't train much between TPM and ROTS - in fact he had more practice time between ROTS and ROTJ but suddenly he just "forgets" everything he learned before because IKC likes it that way. Haha.

And if you understood the concept of logic you'd realize that the odds of everyone already looking at what Kun wanted them to look at are prohibitive (meaning the odds against it are so large that it may as well be impossible). Ergo, whichever spectators were not looking at it were made to look at it.

Were is it ever said that they were looking at what Kun wanted them to look at ? Nowhere ! It's just said that they couldn't do anything else but look. Period. At what direction ? Unknown. And the odds that somebody would not look at the only action in the entire senate including a freaking Sith Lord appearing on the scene are so damn low that I would call them non-existant. So what do you have to support your claim ? Allright: Nothing. Nice we've talked about it.

We see that he moved to the Chancellor and grabbed his head. We saw the amulet glow during this.

We also saw Odan-Urr glow when he tried to attack Exar Kun. Is this "evidence" of him using an artifact, Nai?

I'll spell it out for you: A glow does not indicate use of an artifact. Your evidence is nil.

Why is the amulet shown (there is this nice little picture showing Kun's hand with the amulet and the amulet glowing) when Kun didn't use it. There is no other explanation except Kun did use the amulet to manipulate the chancellor because he wasn't manipulating the chancellor before. Period.

Yes, we know he controlled everyone in the Senate - the omniscient narrator states such. See the above point for further detail. I love how you refuse to even entertain the concept that Kun may have released the Chancellor from his control as he ascended the podium and just assume that he never controlled him in the first place despite that your assumption contradicts the omniscient narrator.

Making things up again. The omniscient narrator talks about a freezing spell and frozen people. Do you understand the concept of being frozen ? Yes ? Does it seem completely out of mind that a freezing spell makes people turn their head into direction X when their is no proof - not even a basis for a guess - that they were looking into direction Y ? Oh yeah. So Kun didn't control anybody but the Chancellor he did freeze anybody else which is different from controlling somebody. And because Kun did control the Chancellor the Chancellor did try to attack Kun ? Allright.

So your not only placing words in the narrators speech that aren't there...your even arguing against all events shown in the story. Nice concept of interpretation, IKC.

Except I'd argue (and have argued) that the blasts are as destructive as a turbolaser, Nai. Nice job with the self-ownage, again.

Nice job with the narrow-mindedness, too. Something's destructive potential is not its only facet. A large enough bomb would have roughly the same destructive effect on a planet that the Death Star's superlaser has - are they suddenly the same in nature?

The answer, of course, is no. QED.

We are talking about energy here, IKC. Kun's amulets blasts never appeared to be more powerful than a turbolaser - so they don't have a higher energy output than a turbolaser. You have no base to assume something different. And If Luke can block a turbolaser it's save to assume that he can block a blast from Kun's amulet as well.

If a Jedi could absorb the energy from a death star shot is it save to assume he could absorb the energy from a bomb with the same devastating effect as well ? Yes ?

Originally posted by IKC
[B]Really Nai? He can't? That's why we have no clue how fast the beams travel, right? Oh wait, I didn't want to step all over the nonsense that passes for your "point."

How, exactly, are you arriving at this conclusion that the beams are slow?

Are the beams faster than blaster bolts ? Even if...can somebody who is moving faster than people who did move faster than blaster bolts move faster than the beams ? See...this is leading nowhere. If we have no clue how fast the beams travel I can't say Luke is faster - point is you can't say that he is not.

I highly suggest you look up "unsupported assumption" before your next post, Nai.

I have. The definition completely fits anything you've posted so far especially your "OMG Kun MIND-CONTROLLED THE ENTIRE SENATE" and "OMG. Sidious did forget how to handle a lightsaber" claims.

We have no proof of a negative? Great job. Sorry, Nai, the onus is on you to prove that Luke would be able to turn them away.

See above...it's getting boring.

Except they show about the same amount of power as turbolaser fire, given that the temple is blown to pieces and on fire where Kun's blasts struck.

Except that doesn't equal turbolaser fire. Fire from an AT-AT detonated an entire building in ESB. Fire from Stardestroyers has been shown to tear away parts of planets. I've never seen Kun's amulet doing something like that. You have ? Give me the source.

And you're assuming again that because their destructive power is similar that means they must be similar in all facets. See my above analogy for debunking.

Oh...so Luke's "emerald lightning" can be more powerful than Kun's amulet blasts since destructive power isn't everything ? Allright.

We are talking about energy here, IKC. Kun's amulets blasts never appeared to be more powerful than a turbolaser - so they don't have a higher energy output than a turbolaser. You have no base to assume something different. And If Luke can block a turbolaser it's save to assume that he can block a blast from Kun's amulet as well.

^I totally agree with that statement but as Illustrious said, you can't judge a normal turbo fire with a blast that's a manifestation of the force, yet you can assume that if Luke could block one, there is a possibility he could block the other.

Originally posted by tdtd
^I totally agree with that statement but as Illustrious said, you can't judge a normal turbo fire with a blast that's a manifestation of the force, yet you can assume that if Luke could block one, there is a possibility he could block the other.

Talking about pure destructive powers it's very well possibly to judge the power behind a blast - no matter if it's force energy or fire from a normal weapon. And I fail to see why somebody who's able to block fire from weapon X shouldn't be able to block fire from weapon Y - especially when weapon X seems to be more powerful.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Talking about pure destructive powers it's very well possibly to judge the power behind a blast - no matter if it's force energy or fire from a normal weapon. And I fail to see why somebody who's able to block fire from weapon X shouldn't be able to block fire from weapon Y - especially when weapon X seems to be more powerful.

How was weapon X seemingly more powerful, at least in close proximity such as weapon Y?

Do you know why you can't assume this? Because you haven't established that they are markedly similar enough to assume.

That's like saying if I can push a car, I should be able to push a stone slab. The difference is that the car has something called "wheels" while the slab does not. If you can establish that the slab has wheels, then go ahead and make the assumption.

Otherwise you're talking out of your ass. Prove the similarity, instead of just the all ambiguous "power."

If you put it that way then obviously comparing X(amulet blasts) and Y(AT-AT lasers) doesn't work. At the same time we can't say for certain which blasts were more powerful can we? But we can say that Luke has been shown to block powerful turbo blasts in DE. So now that we understand Luke does have the ability to block powerful blasts, we can say that Luke could MAYBE block another powerful blast in Kun's amulet. Either way we can make more of a case for Luke blocking Kun's blasts than Kun blocking Luke's emerald lightning.