DN Luke Runs a Short Guantlet

There isn't any evidence, that's why it's moot. IKC was trying to prove a point that he was able to beat down on a revered Jedi Master with ease while the spell was still in effect.

Luke's green sparks has been beaten to death so often that it's ridiculous. When has his green sparks shown to do damage to anything but a Vong (who as a non-force user, doesn't have a defense for it)?

Kun's blast at least has shown the ability to rip THROUGH a Sith Wyrm, through walls, and through massassi. That clearly demonstrates a tangible projection of energy. Then he uses the power on Freedon Nadd, vanquishing a Sith Spirit that would normally be unkillable. Clearly the evidence that the blast would work on Luke is stronger than the ambiguous "green lightning" beating a force user that has the ability to resist force attacks. As mentioned, Odan Urr tried cutting Kun off from the force, and it completely failed.

No, said argument is not conclusive towards Kun, but it does show that Kun's blast is more destructive and impressive than Luke's lightning.

Either way, if he manages to get through Exar Kun, he'll have effectively 0 shot at beating Naga Sadow, especially considering he'd be tired at that point. Anyone who voted for 6 must be a total fanboy.

Oh no doubt I completely agree. I still believe DN Luke to be Kun's superior at least in terms of force abilities maybe even saber abilities but not against Sadow..

And Illustrious, I still consider using a force power on somebody who is immune to the force very impressive. And as I said, there's no evidence for Luke being able to use it on Kun, and there's no evidence that Kun can use his blasts on Luke. So that leads us back to square one, unless we start allowing hyperboles to be valid tools of arguments.

(start of REX's Public Service Announcement)

Originally posted by tdtd
I'll stop insulting IKC now but when you're a fanboy you only see 1 side of things. And Wesker, yea he called IKC a fanboy.. What's that? You're surprised? I told you I just say what people are thinking, and if IKC is the biggest Kun fanboy then you have the honor of holding second place with your crap. I agree has made SOME ok arguments but he has made zero arguments concerning Kun's superiority over DN Luke. If you call writing a novel with scans, listing feats, bullshitting and exaggerating Kun's power a logical argument, then I suggest you visit dictionary.com. IKC's arguments about Kun's power have been some of the most ridiculous crap I have ever read. Again I won't deny that I troll around because 99% of the time I don't care what you, and especially IKC, who gets worked up easily, think about me, but I don't make myself look like a fool with fanboyish arguments, and then call them logical.

Wesker: I hate to break this to you (And everyone else), but using logic and having proof is exactly the opposite of a fanboy

^Except as IKC's second in command you fail to understand the concept of logic. If you still don't understand, search for the Ragnos vs. Kun thread..

Tdtd, you've been warned for this before. If you call writing a paragraph with pointing of fingers and bashing IKC a logical move, then I suggest you visit stoptrolling.com. Your trolling on IKC has beens ome of the most relentless stuff I have ever read. Again I won't need to state that you get warnings for trolling, and that I won't have to ask you to stop again, right? Right. You don't make yourself look like a fool in fanboyish arguments, no, but you do make yourself look like a fool by trolling people who disagree with you.

It's a debate forum. People will disagree with you, I'm afraid to say.

No warning, but the next trolling post I see gets one.

And don't say 'But Rex...!' If you have a problem with it, either PM me or another mod, like Mech.

(end of REX's Public Service Announcement)

Let the debating continue.

Originally posted by Illustrious
I don't disagree. I agree that his argument about controlling the members fo the senate seems a bit of a stretch, but he does make a very valid point, even if it is a passing one. The odds of every individual in the senate already looking at what Kun wants them to are so ridiculously small that it's practically an impossibility. Out of tens or hundreds of thousands of people (or more), to imagine that a couple of them wouldn't be talking amonst themselves, looking at something else, picking their nose, or rubbing their tentacles just seems far-fetched.

It's never said that all people in the Senate were following Kun's exact movements. The Chancellors Podium is in the middle of the Chamber and of course most - or nearly all - people in the Senate Chamber will look on the podium. Now Kun freezes them - so they can't move any longer and will still look on the podium. And especially in that context (freezing spell) I fail to see where anyone can develop the idea that Kun mind-controlled everybody in the Chamber when it says "they were forced to watch not to react". That obviously means that they couldn't do anything but watch - why calling the thing Kun used a "freezing spell" before or mention that they "were forced...not to react" ?

Luke's green sparks has been beaten to death so often that it's ridiculous. When has his green sparks shown to do damage to anything but a Vong (who as a non-force user, doesn't have a defense for it)?

Vong are immune to force attacks normaly. And sorry Illustrious...stating that and then writing something like:

Kun's blast at least has shown the ability to rip THROUGH a Sith Wyrm, through walls, and through massassi. That clearly demonstrates a tangible projection of energy. Then he uses the power on Freedon Nadd, vanquishing a Sith Spirit that would normally be unkillable. Clearly the evidence that the blast would work on Luke is stronger than the ambiguous "green lightning" beating a force user that has the ability to resist force attacks. As mentioned, Odan Urr tried cutting Kun off from the force, and it completely failed.

appears to be a little bit illogical to me. Where has Kun's amulet ever shown the ability to do damage to things / beings who could defend themselves against it ? Killing a Sith spirit was done by Luke's students against Kun himself - without having a little amulet. And I think the combined potential of 375 planets filled with beings is greater than the force power used by Odan - especially when that was an attack some nearly untrained Jedi (Kyle Katarn) was able to use sucessfully on Jerec.

No, said argument is not conclusive towards Kun, but it does show that Kun's blast is more destructive and impressive than Luke's lightning.

Again - why is it more impressive to use something against things that can't defend against it than using something on a being which should be totally immune to the said attack sucessfully ?

Damn Borbarad.... Where are you from BTW?

And Rex, I'm sorry my leige, it won't happen again without reason. At least you admitted that the arguments are fanboyish... But yea I'll stop.

Not exactly admitted, just compared your reasoning to mine. Anyways, thank you for complying...

It's never said that all people in the Senate were following Kun's exact movements. The Chancellors Podium is in the middle of the Chamber and of course most - or nearly all - people in the Senate Chamber will look on the podium. Now Kun freezes them - so they can't move any longer and will still look on the podium. And especially in that context (freezing spell) I fail to see where anyone can develop the idea that Kun mind-controlled everybody in the Chamber when it says "they were forced to watch not to react". That obviously means that they couldn't do anything but watch - why calling the thing Kun used a "freezing spell" before or mention that they "were forced...not to react" ?

I never said I agreed with the argument, but now you're simply arguing semantics. I could just as easily argue that since they were "forced to watch" supports that they were manipulated by Kun.

And of course there were a fair number of people watching, but are you arguing that every member of the Senate just happened to have their eyes fixated on the podium right as Exar Kun barged in?

Vong are immune to force attacks normaly.

But they are not immune to physical manifestations of the force. As mentioned, if I use the force to drop a building on their head, will it hurt them? If I use a sufficiently powerful force lightning, will it hurt them? Arguing no would be saying the equivalent that Vong could leap skyscrapers in a single bound and stick their hands in AC generators without any ill effect. And show me where it mentions that Vong are completely immune to all physical manifestations of the force. They are not part of the force, but immunity from all its physical manifestations is a completely different matter.

appears to be a little bit illogical to me. Where has Kun's amulet ever shown the ability to do damage to things / beings who could defend themselves against it ?

Uhh... looks like you seemed to have lost your logic here. It's not up to those supporting Kun to prove that Kun can go through Luke's defense. It's up to you to prove that Luke can defend it.

Kun's blast cut straight through a Sith Wyrm, temple walls, and massassi with apparent ease. Are you trying to argue that Luke's skin is somehow magically tougher than those substances?

Killing a Sith spirit was done by Luke's students against Kun himself - without having a little amulet.

Yes, they killed a stationary, 4000 year old half mad spirit, and there were how many of them? Did they do it by simply sticking their hand in there? This is supposed to show what now?

And I think the combined potential of 375 planets filled with beings is greater than the force power used by Odan - especially when that was an attack some nearly untrained Jedi (Kyle Katarn) was able to use sucessfully on Jerec.

Here we go again, you and your pseudomath. This is getting rehashed. Show me where it states that said combined power boosts Raynar's power linearly, exponentially, logarithmically, or any such mathematical denomiation. Please. Show me where they quantify force numerically or use any SI unit whatsoever. Please.

That's great that 375 planets sound like some obscene number, but demonstrate again exactly how strong the entity is. And parlay that into relevant context to this particular versus match.

Again - why is it more impressive to use something against things that can't defend against it than using something on a being which should be totally immune to the said attack sucessfully ?

When has Green Lightning shown any purely destructive powers whatsoever? Did it ever blast through a wall? Tear cleanly through an object? For all you know, it's meant to shut off the neurological system of a Vong. In short, you're arguing from ignorance and talking out of your ass.

By this logic, Traya would win EVERY fight because she could just instakill them and toss them around with the force.

You're right Illustrious, the green lightning has shown only to instakill a Vong, which is the only time we know him to use it. Can we prove that it can kill a force user, especially Kun? No. For all we know Kun can absorb it like Yoda did with Sidious, then again it is Instakill lightning. Can you prove Kun's sith blasts are more powerful than Luke's lightning? No. Assuming Luke won't simply stand there and let Kun blast him, can we prove that Luke has a defense for the blasts, or doesn't? No. So we can't prove that either one can safely defend himself from the other's blast. So now we're back at square one. And there is NO logical reason for you to be putting Kun's amulet blasts above Luke's lightning, it can be an opinion but there's nothing that shows Kun's is any more impressive than Luke's instakill technique. If anything I can say that Kun used the trusty amulet which, yes, feeds on his anger, while Luke used his own hands, thereby making his technique more impressive. But that still doesn't mean he will win the fight..

Originally posted by Illustrious
And of course there were a fair number of people watching, but are you arguing that every member of the Senate just happened to have their eyes fixated on the podium right as Exar Kun barged in?

There is a difference between making them watch him, even if their head was turned away at that moment, and having total control of them. He might have been able to affect minute motions, but he has never demonstrated total mind control of a large group.

Originally posted by Illustrious
But they are not immune to physical manifestations of the force. As mentioned, if I use the force to drop a building on their head, will it hurt them? If I use a sufficiently powerful force lightning, will it hurt them? Arguing no would be saying the equivalent that Vong could leap skyscrapers in a single bound and stick their hands in AC generators without any ill effect. And show me where it mentions that Vong are completely immune to all physical manifestations of the force. They are not part of the force, but immunity from all its physical manifestations is a completely different matter.

If it were a physical manifestation of the force, then it would be able to affect Exar, as, just like the Vong, if you drop a skyscraper on his head it will hurt him. The main point remains. It is an instakill. Physical manifestation or not, no other technique has shown to literally instakill properties. Traya's attack didn't actually kill them if I remember correctly. I heard that Exar's instakill didn't actually kill Nadd's spirit on contact, it took several seconds. Luke's attack is the only known true instakill.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Uhh... looks like you seemed to have lost your logic here. It's not up to those supporting Kun to prove that Kun can go through Luke's defense. It's up to you to prove that Luke can defend it.

Kun's blast cut straight through a Sith Wyrm, temple walls, and massassi with apparent ease. Are you trying to argue that Luke's skin is somehow magically tougher than those substances?

Luke was able to defend himself from someone who has a power base that was 365 times greater then DE Sidious'. DE Sidious was able to destroy capital ships.

So Luke is able to defend himself from someone who has a power base that is 375 times greater then someones who can destroy capital ships with the force. That's a lot more then Massassi, Temple Walls, or a Sith Wyrm.

Furthermore, Kyp Durron as early as 13 A.B.Y. was able to defeat a Leviathan. I don't know how he did it for sure, but I have been told that he killed it with force lightning. As of 13 A.B.Y. Kyp Durron was a weakling. Seeing as Levaithan's were described as superweapons on the battlefield during the Hundred Year Darkness it is reasonably comparable to a Sith Wyrm, which was no such description for it.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Yes, they killed a stationary, 4000 year old half mad spirit, and there were how many of them? Did they do it by simply sticking their hand in there? This is supposed to show what now?

There were 12 padawans. I don't know what you mean by stationary. I seriously hope that Exar is stronger then a few padawans.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Here we go again, you and your pseudomath. This is getting rehashed. Show me where it states that said combined power boosts Raynar's power linearly, exponentially, logarithmically, or any such mathematical denomiation. Please. Show me where they quantify force numerically or use any SI unit whatsoever. Please.

That's great that 375 planets sound like some obscene number, but demonstrate again exactly how strong the entity is. And parlay that into relevant context [b]to this particular versus match. [/B]

His raw power base is 375 times larger then DE Sidious' as DE Sidious' raw power base is 1 planet and Raynar's is 375 times that.

I could of course bring up my calorie argument again... but I don't think that would be a great idea. It's actually not totally ridiculous, as conversion on enery of a similar fashion into force energy has been done before.

So the best anyone can do is to try to find the difference between Sidious at his peak before gaining the power of a planet and then show is power after gaining the power of a planet. The next step would be to subtract the difference between after draining a planet from before draining a planet. The problem though it that we in no was can tell the power of a planet in specific terms.

So, what we can best figure is that the power of a person draining a planet increases in a linear motion, as stating otherwise only adds an unfounded variable.

Originally posted by Illustrious
When has Green Lightning shown any purely destructive powers whatsoever? Did it ever blast through a wall? Tear cleanly through an object? For all you know, it's meant to shut off the neurological system of a Vong. In short, you're arguing from ignorance and talking out of your ass.

If green lightning has no purely destructive powers, then why would it be able to affect the force-immune Vong?

Originally posted by Illustrious
By this logic, Traya would win EVERY fight because she could just instakill them and toss them around with the force.

I don't see where Traya comes in. Are you referring to her statement that there are techniques in the force against which there is no defense? She could easily have been speaking from ignorance. If her attack really did lack a defense of any sort, why did she not pwn Nihilus and Sion when they attacked her? Why didn't she kill all of the Jedi that she hated? Furthermore, it seemed to be a technique that the Ancient Sith knew. If there really was no defense against it, why was Ragnos DLOS for more then a century when every Sith in the Empire hated him?

Just another idea that I came up with, not necessarily related to this. What if Traya can only use her instakill while within an area that is strong in the force. Notice that she only uses it on Dantooine, which was very strong in the force. She doesn't use it anywhere else where there isn't necessarily a high level of force energy, even though it would have been helpful in those other situations. Anyone have any input?

OK first off whats DN? and is he REALLY powerful enough to get by ROTS OB1 AND Anakin?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
OK first off whats DN? and is he REALLY powerful enough to get by ROTS OB1 AND Anakin?

from DE to DN (Dark Empire to Dark Nest), the villains and heroes and can take down anything from the PT to OT Jedi/Sith.

In DE, Sidious can summon a force storm to wipe out an entire fleet.

In NJO Luke can literally cut down an Army of Vong, shoot emerald lightning (instakill), maniplate Black Holes, and cloak ships (theres more)

Basically anything in EU can get by Rots Obi and Anakin.

Glentract, where you say 12 padawans, do not forget, Vodo and Luke were also present and taking on Kun, so quite literally it was 2 Masters, and 12 padawans, wielding lightsabers against a defenseless 4000 year old weak spirit.

Good points W00t and Glentract. NO bias just good points... Happy Purim🙂

What could Luke and Vodo have done? Can you prove that they actually helped? Exar had the Temple's focusing his power and he had just taken a large amount of power from Kyp. He lost to 12 padawans who had maybe six weeks of training. I don't find that really impressive compared to other Sith spirits. Look at Ragnos. Exar and Ulic feared his spirit. I'd certainly hope that Exar and Ulic are more capable then 12 padawans. Well, I guess you could potentially call Kam, one of the people who helped vanquish Exar a Knight as he had training from Sidious too, but none of the others did.

Eh you're right about that making Kun seem less impressive...I wonder if any of them ever thought about killing off Ragnos' spirit, or they were to afraid to even think it. I would assume though that Ragnos, being the most powerful of the most powerful that he is, had some sort of defense even as a spirit.

Originally posted by w00t2112
from DE to DN (Dark Empire to Dark Nest), the villains and heroes and can take down anything from the PT to OT Jedi/Sith.

In DE, Sidious can summon a force storm to wipe out an entire fleet.

In NJO Luke can literally cut down an Army of Vong, shoot emerald lightning (instakill), maniplate Black Holes, and cloak ships (theres more)

Basically anything in EU can get by Rots Obi and Anakin.

Thanks man. I started a thread in the regular EU section, if you could, give me some feedback.

I don't see where Traya comes in. Are you referring to her statement that there are techniques in the force against which there is no defense? She could easily have been speaking from ignorance. If her attack really did lack a defense of any sort, why did she not pwn Nihilus and Sion when they attacked her? Why didn't she kill all of the Jedi that she hated? Furthermore, it seemed to be a technique that the Ancient Sith knew. If there really was no defense against it, why was Ragnos DLOS for more then a century when every Sith in the Empire hated him?

Just another idea that I came up with, not necessarily related to this. What if Traya can only use her instakill while within an area that is strong in the force. Notice that she only uses it on Dantooine, which was very strong in the force. She doesn't use it anywhere else where there isn't necessarily a high level of force energy, even though it would have been helpful in those other situations. Anyone have any input?

The technique really does not have a defence, as it removes the force from the one that she attacks, this is the same technique Nihilus uses only on a much smaller scale.. So she couldn't use it against Nihilus. She obviously didn't want to on Sion she could have killed him in a second, and she didn't want to on the other Jedi or Masters at other times either. she once knocks out Zez Kai with a force push on Nar Shaddaa but doesn't kill him, she could have just used her lightsaber to slaughter him but she doesn't. Kreia doesn't want to kill those people.

It is however very possible and I think its true that she needs the Exile there to do the attack, the attack basically does what Nihilus does, Kreia may be a small wound in the force like the Sith Assassins (nothing spectaculair) but to believe she could use a technique that can not be learned in such a way on her own, well its hard when you consider the fact that nobody else except for the Exile and Nihilus have ever shown the power to just destroy the force in their enemy's.

There is a difference between making them watch him, even if their head was turned away at that moment, and having total control of them. He might have been able to affect minute motions, but he has never demonstrated total mind control of a large group.

Actually if they moved the Narrator would have been lying, because they wouldn't be frozen anymore. And its quite logical to assume that most of them were watching Ulic or the Chancellor, seeing as everything there was about them. The few that didn't wouldn't have been of importance to Kun. And the Narrator wasn't going to say all thousands of senators were frozen and watched what Kun did, except for Bobo of the Barilian system, A of the B system and jlfkadslf of the jkjalsdjfaojkj system...

Still this argument is very simple FROZEN, if the senators moved they wouldn't be frozen and they would therefor contradict the Narrator.

Furthermore, Kyp Durron as early as 13 A.B.Y. was able to defeat a Leviathan. I don't know how he did it for sure, but I have been told that he killed it with force lightning. As of 13 A.B.Y. Kyp Durron was a weakling. Seeing as Levaithan's were described as superweapons on the battlefield during the Hundred Year Darkness it is reasonably comparable to a Sith Wyrm, which was no such description for it.

Just one panel earlier he calls it, here we see the beast dying and in the next image we see it dead on the ground still bleeding..

I agree completely with the frozen senate argument. However Kreia wasn't a wound in the force, if you recall she tied her life to the Exile's, so her ability to use her instakill has to be in the presence of the wound in the force(the exile). Hell I bet she would be able to do it around Nihilus too since he's the other wound, just wouldn't be able to do it to him.

Originally posted by tdtd
I agree completely with the frozen senate argument. However Kreia wasn't a wound in the force, if you recall she tied her life to the Exile's, so her ability to use her instakill has to be in the presence of the wound in the force(the exile). Hell I bet she would be able to do it around Nihilus too since he's the other wound, just wouldn't be able to do it to him.

Kreia isn't a wound in the force like Nihilus, or the Exile it is however very likely that both she and Sion were affected by Nihilus his powers, and slowly in a far lesser far less dangerous scale then either Nihilus or the Exile still drained the force from those around them. The Sith Assassins for instance also do this, seeing as Sion lead them and Kreia basically lead Sion and Nihilus, well it doesn't seem like a far fetched theory to say that she too had a small wound in the force.

If you play KOTOR II though, she connects her life to the Exile. I'm not sure if that makes her a wound too or gives her special instakill powers, but either way she has to have the exile around to do it