DN Luke Runs a Short Guantlet

No I didn't say his feat wars were logical. I said he has a nicer way of putting things while the Kun fans snap when their opinion isn't shared.

Oh really? You said:

At least Glentract could make a good case for both parties while you guys verbally fellate Kun.

Good points W00t and Glentract. NO bias just good points... Happy Purim

And now you said it wasn't logical? It sure looked like you touted him like the most logical thing on earth.

So you're saying for some reason that normal sith lightning works on a force user, but a green lightning instakill won't? Wouldn't it be logical to assume that the emerald lightning would be able to work on a force user just as much as sith lightning, while emerald lightning is far more powerful?

No, you can't simply assume as much because it was never DEMONSTRATED as such. Luke never used it on a force user. Hell, he never even used it on a human. Like I said, it could have been specifically designed to kill a VONG, not humans or other species of force users.

If I use force lightning on a stormtrooper, he'd probably die. I can't say the same if I try it on Marka Ragnos. You can't simply apply the same logic to 2 different situations.

Now that's not saying Kun couldn't stop it but you can't assume Kun's blasts will work on Luke either.

I didn't assume they would work on Luke.

I stated how powerful those blasts are. It's up to the Luke supporters to prove that Luke can block them. It's not up to me to prove that Luke can't block them, that's asking me to prove a negative. So if a Luke supporter wants to prove that Luke can block said beams, have at it, that'll be fun.

Luke can swing 20 blades, youre right we don't know how effective they are, but we know that Luke has shown force speed in his saber fights while Kun has not. Does it mean Kun can't? No. But we know Luke can, and that would obviously be useful in a versus fight, since he is known to use force speed.

Kun has never indicated the need to, so he's penalized for this?

Obi-Wan as a padawan showed force speed. Could he beat Kun because Kun never showed any force speed? Especially considering Force Speed is part of the training for Jedi, just like resisting TK.

The rest are hyperbole, but they are a test of Luke's force power, which isn't irrelevant in a fight but make him seem powerful.

Indeed, but if it doesn't correlate, it's irrelevant.

Saying that Kun can freeze a senate while fighting Vodo would somehow help him in a fight with Luke, isn't logical.

No, I was defending that against people who said it somehow wasn't effective.

Borbarad even went so far as to say it was a spell and was ritualized, like some fantasy novel or something. That was never indicated.

Saying because Kun developed his own style and defeated Vodo would make him superior to Luke is not logical.

You're missing the point. I picked a side in this debate, and I made my points.

I argued that because Kun created his own style and beat down the best of an order of thousands (Not hundreds like Luke's order) of force users with apparent ease is more impressive than Luke's lightsaber feats and unknown form. It's up to the Luke supporters to counter this point.

I don't have to counter my own points or it would be redundant.

I didn't see W00t to show any real bias, and I didn't see Glentract attack Kun supporters. That is what Wesker and IKC are doing.

No, you can't simply assume as much because it was never DEMONSTRATED as such. Luke never used it on a force user. Hell, he never even used it on a human. Like I said, it could have been specifically designed to kill a VONG, not humans or other species of force users.

So you are going to logically assume that Luke created it specifically for the Vong? I'm going to logically assume that Luke created it period, and i'm not saying Kun can't stop it but I'm saying you can't assume that it was only created for Vong JUST because he only used it on the Vong. That's not logical, at least in my book. And at the same time, let's say they were created for the Vong, so you're saying an attack like that, and I won't call it an instakill, wouldn't even phase Kun? What would make you assume Kun could release those blasts faster than Luke can release the lightning anyways? And if I recall, doesn't Kun have to be uber angry to release those blasts since they feed on his anger? So for Kun to do this we would have to assume Kun is uber pissed or what not, since again, his anger controls the blasts.
Obiwan was shown to use force speed in a lightsaber battle? Where? Luke was shown to use it in lightsaber combat, and very effectively might I add. Again it doesn't make him superior to Kun, but it doesn't put him under Kun, because we have no evidence how fast it really makes him and if Kun can hold off that kind of speed.
And you're right, maybe THOSE specific feats are more impressive than Luke defeating an army. Just maybe.. But that still doesn't show how Kun would be superior to Luke in any way.

So you are going to logically assume that Luke created it specifically for the Vong? I'm going to logically assume that Luke created it period, and i'm not saying Kun can't stop it but I'm saying you can't assume that it was only created for Vong JUST because he only used it on the Vong. That's not logical, at least in my book. And at the same time, let's say they were created for the Vong, so you're saying an attack like that, and I won't call it an instakill, wouldn't even phase Kun? What would make you assume Kun could release those blasts faster than Luke can release the lightning anyways? And if I recall, doesn't Kun have to be uber angry to release those blasts since they feed on his anger? So for Kun to do this we would have to assume Kun is uber pissed or what not, since again, his anger controls the blasts.

No, I never said I assumed that he made it just for the Vong. I said because it was never elaborated, that was a distinct possibility. The Luke supporters were arguing that Luke could just simply fire off that lightning over and over again and win the fight that way. There's no evidence to suggest that's the case.

Yes, the amulet does feed of his rage and dark side energies. But in a versus fight, he'd be pretty pissed pretty fast.

Obiwan was shown to use force speed in a lightsaber battle? Where? Luke was shown to use it in lightsaber combat, and very effectively might I add. Again it doesn't make him superior to Kun, but it doesn't put him under Kun, because we have no evidence how fast it really makes him and if Kun can hold off that kind of speed.

So Obi-Wan couldn't have swung his lightsaber at something while he was speeding? Kyle Katarn used force speed and slashed a reborn in a cutscene. Does that mean Kyle Katarn has demonstrated a superior feat because he could fight while force speeding?

Also, the comics show afterimages of Kun's saber. Those are typically used to show that both Vodo and Kun are moving very fast. Just because he doesn't have his own play-by-play commentary that "he's moving too fast" doesn't mean he was moving slowly.

And you're right, maybe THOSE specific feats are more impressive than Luke defeating an army. Just maybe.. But that still doesn't show how Kun would be superior to Luke in any way.

It certainly doesn't show Kun as inferior to Luke. The Luke supporters have not countered that Luke even can block Kun's blasts.

Here's what the Luke supporters assume:

Luke can block Kun's blasts even without evidence to assume as much. Luke can beat Kun with emerald lightning, even with no evidence to assume he can. They assume the best case scenario for Luke and the worst-case for Kun.

So why don't you argue that those people are verbally fellating Luke and are being illogical? You sure seem very one-sided with your attacks.

Luke can block Kun's blasts even without evidence to assume as much. Luke can beat Kun with emerald lightning, even with no evidence to assume he can. They assume the best case scenario for Luke and the worst-case for Kun.

I understand and I obviously disagree with that logic, but IKC and Wesker assume the exact oppsite. There is nothing that suggests Luke can block Kun's blast, even if we take Luke's force speed into account. There is nothing that suggests Kun would be able to block Luke's blasts either.

So why don't you argue that those people are verbally fellating Luke and are being illogical? You sure seem very one-sided with your attacks.

Where do you see me attacking anyone besides biased fanboys like Luke and Wesker. You see me attacking your opinions? No because they make sense and they way you formulate your argument gives me something to work with and think about instead of being a dick. But I agree with what Luke supporters are saying. Why don't you argue with Wesker and IKC? At the end there is nothing to suggest NJO/DN Luke>Kun NOR vice versa. I don't understand why people can't live with that.

I understand and I obviously disagree with that logic, but IKC and Wesker assume the exact oppsite. There is nothing that suggests Luke can block Kun's blast, even if we take Luke's force speed into account. There is nothing that suggests Kun would be able to block Luke's blasts either.

The difference is that Kun's blast has shown the ability to tear through Sith Wyrms, massassi, and temple walls while Luke's emerald lightning has shown the ability to down a Vong and that's it. There's no evidence that it works on a force user at all.

For me, a high energy beam that feeds off the user's anger and doubles in power with each pulse is superior to Luke's lightning. It's my prevaling opinion, I never said everyone has to agree with it. But I refuse to accept how anyone would argue that Luke can simply instakill powerful force users with this "green sparks" that has never shown to instakill any force user.

Where do you see me attacking anyone besides biased fanboys like Luke and Wesker. You see me attacking your opinions? No because they make sense and they way you formulate your argument gives me something to work with and think about instead of being a dick. But I agree with what Luke supporters are saying. Why don't you argue with Wesker and IKC? At the end there is nothing to suggest NJO/DN Luke>Kun NOR vice versa. I don't understand why people can't live with that.

No, and I don't have a problem with that.

I do have a problem with people downplaying certain feats and then playing Feat Wars:

You have someone claiming that freezing the entire senate wasn't that impressive (a la Fishy), even though it was never shown to have been done before or since, when was the last time someone froze even a few people?

You have someone claiming that Kun's spell and sith magic are "ritualized" and therefore need great concentration or preparation (a la Borbarad), which is not supported and even proven AGAINST considering Aleema fired "Sith Magic" on the spot.

Those arguments are entirely illogical and are made by people who "verbally fellate" Luke.

Right I agree with you. I think it's wrong to downplay someone's achievements while embellishing others, even if I've done it. Again there is no logical evidence to conclude that Kun>Luke nor Luke>Kun and i'm fine with that, others aren't.

My opinion though is that being able to fight an army that isn't part of the force, and figuring out techniques against them, is highly impressive.

I agree it's pretty impressive. But so is downing the top members of the a large (thousands even after many of the masters were killed), martial Jedi Order within seconds, one of which while he had the entire Senate frozen. Then he casually tossed a Jedi Knight aside as she wasn't even worth his time.

I see it as Kun having the more impressive 1 on 1 showings, which is what this fight is about.

But at the same time Luke is superior to Vodo, is he not? In my opinion, I would put Luke slashing through an army of Vong, on par or maybe more impressive than Kun defeating Vodo, but again that's my opinion. I don't see Kun having more impressive feats, I see feats that we can't compare with the two characters, which includes calling some of them more powerful than others. Different yes, but more powerful would be speculation

Originally posted by tdtd
But at the same time Luke is superior to Vodo, is he not? In my opinion, I would put Luke slashing through an army of Vong, on par or maybe more impressive than Kun defeating Vodo, but again that's my opinion. I don't see Kun having more impressive feats, I see feats that we can't compare with the two characters, which includes calling some of them more powerful than others. Different yes, but more powerful would be speculation

Yes, Luke is more powerful than Vodo; notice how I never said Kun would dominate Luke. I just said that Kun seemed to have the more impressive 1 on 1 showings. Kun did dominate quite a few Massassi with his beams though, even though he was targetting the Sith Wyrm 😉.

Now would you put Kun's blasts on the Sith Wyrms or the Massassi on a higher pedestal than Luke's emerald lightning on the Vong?

Originally posted by tdtd
Now would you put Kun's blasts on the Sith Wyrms or the Massassi on a higher pedestal than Luke's emerald lightning on the Vong?

I think of it this way. If Kun was in Luke's position, he could still blow right through the Vong with his blasts, they blew through Sith alchemical flesh and temple walls easily and were doubling in power with each pulse.

Could Luke have done the same level of devastation with just his emerald lightning? If he used his other force powers, probably, but with just his lightning, it seems unlikely.

So yes, I would put the beams' destructive power on a high level than the lightning.

Right, but you have to take into account that the amulet blasts were a force power, and since the Vong are not part of the force, physical manifestations of the force like the amulet blasts wouldn't work as a weapon against the Vong, correct?

Originally posted by tdtd
Right, but you have to take into account that the amulet blasts were a force power, and since the Vong are not part of the force, physical manifestations of the force like the amulet blasts wouldn't work as a weapon against the Vong, correct?

No, physical manifestations DO work. It's the abstract manifestations, such as telekinesis or mind trick that do not work. The amulet blast as a force power or not was never explicitly mentioned. We do know it can tear right through flesh and stone, so it's very plausible, if not even prohibitively likely that it can go through Vong armor and flesh.

tdtd, you seem to forget that widespread devastation feats were not performed by Luke alone, Kun had quite a few, notice how you never mention feats on par with killing an army of Vong:

-Draing the Massasi
- Freezing hundreds of thousands of people and killing a revered Jedi Master

W00t I constantly compare Luke's Vong feats with Kun's massassi draining and freezing the senate, specifically saying you can't rate 1 or the other better. And Illustrious, you are saying we cannot assume that Kun's amulet blasts were a force power? Since they came from Sadow's amulet and the amulet was created from Sadow's Sith Alchemy which specifically used the force?

Originally posted by Wesker
1. There is NO indication that the emerald lightning is a physical manifestation of the force. Why is this being brought up?

That was brought up by Illustrious and IKC...ask them.

3. I like how instakill suddenly becomes a title of prestige instead of a poorly used general description. It's nature is in doubt, and it wasn't even used on someone who could use the force. We've seen instances of force deflection and absorption all over Star Wars. Yoda can grab Sith lightning from Sidious. Exar Kun was too powerful for Odan Urr to destroy in the force, and Odan Urr far outstrips Yoda for experience, force mastery, and lore. Apparently this emerald lightning just skips past all logical barriers and is "instakill" and thus "unstoppable" by a Sith Lord who pwned Jedi masters without breaking a sweat, despite it only being used on a non-force using Vong. Like I said, this would be like frying a clone trooper with sith lightning and then declaring that you could defeat Marka Ragnos with it.

And again: The Vong ignored force lightning used against them they weren't force users yes but obviously immune to quite powerful force techniques. Now again: Using a force attack on somebody who should be immune to it appears to be more difficult than using a force attack on somebody who is not immune to it but can just put up some sort of defence. Yoda...the nearly 900 year old grandmaster of the Jedi Order had some problems catching force lightning were the Vong simply ignored it.

Let me give you another example. You are armed with a machine gun and you have to kill one of the two following persons: Person A has the ability to dodge 90 % of you bullets, Person B wears an armor that will block every bullet you shoot at him. What do you think who's going to be more difficult to kill ?

6. Where do you get off claiming that "Luke's is the only true instakill"? Aside from the horribly subjective nature of the forum-bred term, it's just more feat wars. Luke used an unknown attack against a non-force user that apparently killed the guy. OMFG Luke can kill all! Talk about leaping to conclusions! I can probably kill a Vong with a penknife if I get close enough. OMFG I can defeat an entire company of knights!

Again...he used that unknown attack sucessfully against a being that belongs to a race which is immune to all kinds of force attacks when we have seen beings of that race simply ignore force lightning used against them as well as all other kinds of force techniques.

If we had seen Yoda walking through Sidious force lightning as if it wasn't there how many force users would you say could kill Yoda with a force attack ?

Hot damn, I go to sleep for six hours and get to come back to this. It could take an hour or two to write a response.

Well we're all generally in agreement for once Glentract..

Since I didn't answer that:

Originally posted by Illustrious
I never said I agreed with the argument, but now you're simply arguing semantics. I could just as easily argue that since they were "forced to watch" supports that they were manipulated by Kun.

And of course there were a fair number of people watching, but are you arguing that every member of the Senate just happened to have their eyes fixated on the podium right as Exar Kun barged in?

No. Arguing that Kun manipulated them can only be done if you ignore the freezing and the looks on the faces of the victims of the freezing spell. If Kun controlled them you wouldn't see the terror on their faces.

And frankly: I don't see why anybody should have looked away from the podium when everything interesting was happening on the podium which includes a Sith Lord barging into the Chamber and disturbing the Senate.

But they are not immune to physical manifestations of the force. As mentioned, if I use the force to drop a building on their head, will it hurt them? If I use a sufficiently powerful force lightning, will it hurt them? Arguing no would be saying the equivalent that Vong could leap skyscrapers in a single bound and stick their hands in AC generators without any ill effect. And show me where it mentions that Vong are completely immune to all physical manifestations of the force. They are not part of the force, but immunity from all its physical manifestations is a completely different matter.

You're comparing apples to eggs here. Force lightning and Luke's emerald lightning are pure force energy. It's not throwing physical objects at them - it's using force energy on them. And people tried to use force lightning on YV's and failed with it - so YV's seem to be immune to force lightning.
And you did notice that this little "physical manifestation" arguments totally contradicts your own assertion that the "mystical energy field in every living being of the SW universe" can't be compared to physical energies (e.g. turbolaser fire) ?

Uhh... looks like you seemed to have lost your logic here. It's not up to those supporting Kun to prove that Kun can go through Luke's defense. It's up to you to prove that Luke can defend it.

What ? Now you're asking me to prove a negative (Kun can't go through Luke's defence) ? Luke's force defence is enough to stop fire from an AT-AT with appears to be more powerful than the energy coming from Kun's amulets - 20 years before DN. Somebody inferior to Luke did bent away mulitple turbolaser shots from a stardestroyer (able to vaporize small asteroids). So I fail to see why Kun should be able to blast through Luke's defence.

Kun's blast cut straight through a Sith Wyrm, temple walls, and massassi with apparent ease. Are you trying to argue that Luke's skin is somehow magically tougher than those substances?

We're talking about force defence here and not about blocking the blasts with his skin - or are Tott Doneeta's hands now tougher than metal since he did block fire from a space ship ? And are you going to argue that the blasts from Kun's amulets are stronger than turbolaser fire from a stardestroyer or weapon-fire from an AT-AT ?

Here we go again, you and your pseudomath. This is getting rehashed. Show me where it states that said combined power boosts Raynar's power linearly, exponentially, logarithmically, or any such mathematical denomiation. Please. Show me where they quantify force numerically or use any SI unit whatsoever. Please.

That's great that 375 planets sound like some obscene number, but demonstrate again exactly how strong the entity is. And parlay that into relevant context to this particular versus match.

DE Sidious feeding on the potential of one single planet was able to tear entire fleets away and obviously it did vastly boost his powers compared to his ROTS or ROTJ self. Now Raynar had multiple times the potential to back up his own force powers and he overwhelmed Leia with ease and it took the combined power of dozens of Jedi to defend his "mind control" attacks.

So obviously Raynar was superior to:
- Kun's spirit who was exterminated by 10 of Luke's students while feeding on the power of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.
- DE Sidious (unless you want to tell me that DE Luke and unborn Anakin have more power than dozens of trained Jedi combined)

So he could wield more force powers than somebody who fried and knocked of some of Luke's students and force choked 10 people at once and somebody who "warped the space-time continuum" destroying entire starfleets. And Luke simply blocked that power on his own.

When has Green Lightning shown any purely destructive powers whatsoever? Did it ever blast through a wall? Tear cleanly through an object? For all you know, it's meant to shut off the neurological system of a Vong. In short, you're arguing from ignorance and talking out of your ass.

What does the purely destructive power of that "emerald lightning" have to do with his instakill purpose ? Can Kreia blast through a wall with her "force drain" ability ? Can Nihilus tear through objects with his "force eating" ? No. Are those powers less dangerous because of that ? No. In short: argumentum ad absurdum.

For all I know the ability instakilled a being which race is immune to force attacks even those you rate as "physical manifestations" (force lightning).

By this logic, Traya would win EVERY fight because she could just instakill them and toss them around with the force.

By your own logic, Traya wouldn't be able to win a fight because her instakill ability can't rip through walls or a Sith beast....and DE Sidious would win every fight because force storm is the by far most destructive force power we have seen so far (excluding the use of Sadow's ship and the thought bomb).

Those are some solid arguments Borborad. Can you show us where regular force lightning was used on the Vong and failed? If so, that would make your argument work even more. Also, I completely forgot about the AT-AT, did he actually stop the shots at him or did he stop the AT-AT altogether. I don't have the comic right near me but if he did stop the shots then it's at least some proof that he would have a defense for Kun's Amulet.