Originally posted by Fox5
Look,guys,it's obvious that Vader went all out when they were in the Cloud City Control Room before they fight in the big ventilation shaft,Vader came out of nowhere and was definately fighting at his best right there,Luke only nicked Vader because he so deep in hate that he wasn't concentrating.
Originally posted by Lörd Sorgo
I detest having to repeat myself:Of course he doesn't thrust it in his Son's face! He was trying to recruit him! Point being, he didn't hold back earlier on. If you're testing your son to see if he's powerful, why would you hold back? He's going to give him everything to see if he can compete.
If you're not trying to kill someone, you're holding back.
^ right there...you say one minute that he doesn't want to kill luke because he's testing him, then you say, if you're not trying to kill someone, you're holding back. You even went as far as to italicize "holding back'.
You just showed evidence that he was in fact holding back, yet you continue to spew illogical rants stating that theres no possible way he was holding back...make up your mind, son.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
^ right there...you say one minute that he doesn't want to kill luke because he's testing him, then you say, if you're not trying to kill someone, you're holding back. You even went as far as to italicize "holding back'.You just showed evidence that he was in fact holding back, yet you continue to spew illogical rants stating that theres no possible way he was holding back...make up your mind, son.
What I said wasn't evidence and that's actually a bad mistake on my part as well.
You can be going all out and not be trying to kill someone. People can attempt to disarm other opponents by using everything invested in themselves.
By the way, Everything I said in that last post (You know, the one you didn't bother to reply to.) was all Logical and even some of it was evidence.
I thought you said you were leaving?
Make up your mind, son.
Ah, I didn't say i was leaving, I said I was done with you. and that was a big mistake on my part. But see, that just goes to show your distortion of the truth and inability to properly comprehend whats typed in front of you.
Which one didn't i reply to? point it out and i will...gladly.
I find it entertaining that once you have something that proves a point in front of you, all you can say is you made a mistake. You know that portion was correct, you're just to bullheaded to admit it.
Originally posted by Fox5
Look,guys,it's obvious that Vader went all out when they were in the Cloud City Control Room before they fight in the big ventilation shaft,Vader came out of nowhere and was definately fighting at his best right there,Luke only nicked Vader because he so deep in hate that he wasn't concentrating.
He got pissed and cut his hand off...that simple. Had he been going all out, he would have gotten him sooner.
Sorgo said that they wanted to test him....fine.
He said that he was going all out to see if he could keep up...fine, i don't agree, but fine.
Then something was said that they already knew about his power and that he could destroy them.......
then why test him? They both already knew he was strong, and already made up their minds to have him turned, not killed. In order to turn him, they realized that BOTH of them would have to do it. THATS why Vader wanted to "capture" him in the Carbonite Chamber.
The WHOLE reason of freezing Han was to see if would be safe to freeze a human (Luke). So it was already in Vader's mind to capture him rather than test him. The whole testing theory is old and weak. There's no proof to support such an idea.
There is however proof to support the FACT that Vader wanted to freeze Luke for "his journey to the Emperor". Vader said it more than once, and attempted to start the freezing process. (By pointing his finger at the control panel and lifting the switch.)
I grow tired of the constant bickering, and I'm as guilty as Sorgo, but there is no proof that Vader was going all out, and no reason to believe that his initial plan was to test Luke, especially when they already knew of his power potential.
Thats why Vader said, "He will join us, or die." The first mission was to turn him. Then he got around him and started feeling "something" for Luke. I wont say love, cause it was too soon, but he even thru out the thought of destroying the Emperor and ruling together.
And I know you take the part, "or die" and twist that around to "see, he said or he'd kill him so he WAS going all out cause he knew he couldn't turn him." ...no. He said that to Palps in a ass kissing kinda way, Just to get him off his back.
I read somewhere (and ill try to find out where) that Vader was already obsessed with finding "his son"(not Luke) Slywalker, and Palps was a;ready growing suspicious of Vader's intentions and was in talks with Xizor and wanted tabs kept on Vader. don't know how canon that is, but ill try to find the source.
Anyway, Vader wanted to find Luke anyway for whatever reason, and did not want to kill him, and already wanted Luke to join him. Before the Emp mentioned it.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
He got pissed and cut his hand off...that simple. Had he been going all out, he would have gotten him sooner.
Wrong. Luke had been pushing him back for alot of the fight.
Sorgo said that they wanted to test him....fine.
He said that he was going all out to see if he could keep up...fine, i don't agree, but fine.
Then something was said that they already knew about his power and that he could destroy them.......
What are you talking about? Are you referring to when Sidious said that Luke could destroy him and Vader?
then why test him? They both already knew he was strong, and already made up their minds to have him turned, not killed. In order to turn him, they realized that BOTH of them would have to do it. THATS why Vader wanted to "capture" him in the Carbonite Chamber.
They wanted him to join the Sith and they had sensed he was powerful. They've been wrong in the past and Sidious has had incorrect predictions before (This includes the prediction of his death.) Why wouldn't they test him before letting him in? That would make no sense.
"Hooray! Let's just let Luke join the Sith because we assume he is powerful!"
No, doesn't work that way. Sidious has tested Sith in the past. Why would he pass it up this time? Has he gotten stupider? I think not.
The WHOLE reason of freezing Han was to see if would be safe to freeze a human (Luke). So it was already in Vader's mind to capture him rather than test him. The whole testing theory is old and weak. There's no proof to support such an idea.
Of course there is proof! You said that APPARENTLY Vader was holding back, right? If Vader was holding back, why didn't he disarm Luke at the snap of his fingers so he could capture him within mere seconds? If Vader was having no significant trouble AT ALL with Luke, then why was Vader holding back if he was not testing him? Why didn't he capture him right away?
Why didn't he keep in the Chamber? Why was his defense crumbling several times to Luke? Why did Luke get the opportunity to slash his Cybernetic suit? Because Vader was holding back?
If Vader was trying to capture Luke and holding back, why didn't Vader walk out of there with Luke?
It's getting old now, man.
The Idea that Vader was holding back is Old and weak. There is ABSOLUTELY no proof to support that idea.
There is however proof to support the FACT that Vader wanted to freeze Luke for "his journey to the Emperor". Vader said it more than once, and attempted to start the freezing process. (By pointing his finger at the control panel and lifting the switch.)
Okay, so why didn't Vader just chuck him in there in the beginning? And the fight went on long after Luke escaped the Carbonite site. Why didn't Vader just disable his arm then and capture him if his plan had failed?
Of course he wanted to throw Luke in there, but he was testing him at the beginning, and when his plan failed almost too miserably, he most likely attempted to catch Luke in other means but it took longer because Luke was stronger than Vader first thought.
I grow tired of the constant bickering, and I'm as guilty as Sorgo, but there is no proof that Vader was going all out, and no reason to believe that his initial plan was to test Luke, especially when they already knew of his power potential.
No, they didn't know of his Power. They assumed it was great and they felt it through the force, of course. But they obviously wanted to test him. Just because someone has Potential Power doesn't mean they know how to use it. Vader is a walking example of what happened because Sidious chose a Sith with "Potential". Would he make the same mistake again without testing that Jedi? He's done it before. Why would he change his pattern suddenly? He knew Anakin's power and he STILL tested Anakin.
Thats why Vader said, "He will join us, or die." The first mission was to turn him. Then he got around him and started feeling "something" for Luke. I wont say love, cause it was too soon, but he even thru out the thought of destroying the Emperor and ruling together.
That thought is a Sith thought.
Apprentice > Master is just the way of the Sith. The Apprentice is always trying to conquer the Master. This doesn't prove that Vader had feelings for his Son at that point.
And I know you take the part, "or die" and twist that around to "see, he said or he'd kill him so he WAS going all out cause he knew he couldn't turn him." ...no. He said that to Palps in a ass kissing kinda way, Just to get him off his back.
You just assumed I would take that and twist around, yet you just twisted it around saying he said it in an ass kissing way.
Did he say it like that? Can you show me where it says he said it like that?
I read somewhere (and ill try to find out where) that Vader was already obsessed with finding "his son"(not Luke) Slywalker, and Palps was a;ready growing suspicious of Vader's intentions and was in talks with Xizor and wanted tabs kept on Vader. don't know how canon that is, but ill try to find the source.
First of all, Vader was looking for his Son, yes. What's he going to call him to try to persuade him to the dark side? Luke? He was willing to use any method to try to turn Luke. That included trying to make Luke feel a part of the Family so he would join the Sith.
Sidious was keeping tabs on Vader so he wouldn't try to use Luke to take over the Sith and the Empire by killing Sidious.
Jeez . . .
Anyway, Vader wanted to find Luke anyway for whatever reason, and did not want to kill him, and already wanted Luke to join him. Before the Emp mentioned it. [/B]
Of course he did! He wanted to terminate his Master and have the ever powerful Luke as his apprentice while he virtually ran the Galaxy.
Why wouldn't he test him to see if he was powerful enough? He wanted a proper apprentice. He wanted someone that held the power to overthrow Sidious so Vader could run the show.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I want to point out that I know that Luke i his son, but im drawing referrence to the fact that he addresses him as his son, rather than a formal name, Like Luke, or Skywalker.That kind of wording comes from SOME type of emotional bond.
Or the fact that Vader wanted to throw a Guilt trip on his Son so he would join the Sith.
If Vader called him "Son", Luke would peer at him as a Father figure and would be more likely to turn.
Vader was being manipulative. Y'know, that's kind of what the Sith practice.