Originally posted by Allankles
Again what does leadership have to do with anything? Ulic was Kun's apprentice yet it was he that earned the Mando's allegiance. Yoda was the leader of the Republic army yet it was Anakin who became the clone wars greatest hero along with Obi Wan. Position's and titles have nothing to do with the fact that it was the Exile who destroyed the Mando's on Malachor.
No! leadership does not have to do with anything? right?
Decisions made by Leaders can change the outcome of wars! dude. This has happened in real life as well. Here is an example: Hitler's decision to invade Russia was a disaster and Europe was left vulnerable to Allied Invasion. You have to understand that Leadership plays a crucial role in wars.
Under Revan's leadership: Republic won against the Mandalorian invaders. This is simple canonical reality.
Revan and Malak were the two greatest heroes of the Mandalorian-Republic Wars and not the Exile.
Exile's story shows us that it was a disastrous decision to activate the MSG device. Exile was so shocked that she disconnected from the Force and left everything.
Originally posted by Allankles
Telling someone to do something is entirely different from doing it, but outside of that Revan was a competent strategist without doubt. But what so exceptional about this?
Revan masterminded the plans and he was observing the progress of his Forces as well. He had many loyal persons doing his bidding in the conflict. An example: Exile was put in-charge of MSG to activate that device if Mandalorians were winning on the Malachor V because Revan's Forces were already engaged against the Mandalore's Forces outside Malachor in a separate clash. And Exile did what Revan expected from her. This event shows that even if Revan was not present to monitor a conflict, his loyal comrades would do his bidding.
Here is an eye-opener: Revan ordered the construction of MSG. He then ordered MSG to be deployed in Malachor V. Thus Revan set a trap for Mandalorians by luring them to Malachor V and then he sent his least loyal Forces to engage the Mandalorians on Malachor V. But Revan put his loyal general "Exile" in-charge of MSG device and instructed her that if things go bad then she would activate the device. She did exactly as she was told and Mandalorians were destroyed. The other Mandalorian fleet that engaged Revan's loyal Forces were also destroyed earlier. Thus Revan's plans worked and Republic won.
Excerpt from wookieepedia: The Mass Shadow Generator (MSG) was a superweapon used in the Battle of Malachor V. It was created by the Zabrak tech specialist Bao-Dur, under orders from the Jedi Knight Revan, in the year 3,960 BBY. The weapon was the centerpiece of a trap with which Revan hoped to bring about a conclusive end to the Mandalorian Wars. Overseeing the device's use was a Jedi General (later known as the Jedi Exile). Revan lured the Mandalorians to Malachor and a massive fleet battle ensued in orbit. During the fighting, his loyal general commanded Bao-Dur to activate the secret weapon. Moments later, a significant portion of both fleets were suddenly drawn from orbit into a vast gravity vortex that was powerful enough to crush the countless ships into the planet's crust and fracture Malachor V to its very core.
Originally posted by Allankles
What did Revan do in the war beyond heresay? You're making light of the tactical competence the Exile, Karath and co. would have required to have to pull off any succesful offensive regardeless of who had the highest rank. You're talking about rank, I'm talking about the details, and the details clearly point out that Revan wasn't the only one making huge decisions and making an impact.
I have presented a detail of how Revan planned destruction of Mandalorians and his plans worked. Check the above two paragraphs.
He has done lot more then this even.
Here is what Canderous said: "It was not your ships or your men or your vaunted 'fight for freedom' that won this, the final battle of the war. It was by the actions of one person–the Jedi Revan–that you prevailed. Revan's strategies and tactics defeated the best of us. Even Mandalore himself was taken aback by the ferocity, the tenacity, and the subtlety of Revan's Plans. Revan fought us to a standstill and then began pushing us back. We didn't really have a chance." - KOTOR Script
Now you were saying?
Originally posted by Allankles
How ridiculous. You're repeating to me unimportant little bits of the story I'm very familiar with. Every big time war hero, you'd expect would be popular considering the circumstances (the council's refusal to join the war) so this is all largely irrelevant.
An excuse to back-off from the discussion. You surely can't understand what I am trying to telling you or do you?
Originally posted by Allankles
Revan's empire was no more effective than Kun's, as they didn't achieve what they set out to accomplish. Both only weakened the Republic one more so than the other (Revan's) because it weakened an already weakened Republic and gave rise to a more insidious threat (Sion and Nihilus).
LOL!
Revan's Empire crushed the Mandalorians and then went on to crush the Republic and was succeeding but a betrayal put a halt to his plans. Now you are trying to blame Revan for this halt? right?
Nihilus was possibly the product of Revan's dirty plan on Malachor. Sion's history is not yet fully known but Traya also played a part in birth of Sion and Nihilus.
Originally posted by Allankles
The Mandalorians in the Mando wars initially met no resistance from the Jedi and were handily smacking the Republic before the Jedi's intervention.
Another BS!
Mandalorians were meeting good resistance from Republic Forces as soon as they entered the Republic controlled regions. But Mandalorian tactics were better and thus they prevailed. "The siege of Taris" is one big example of this.
Originally posted by Allankles
To put this into perspective ponder this. The Mando were outnumbered by only a third of the Republic army in the Mando Wars and this is after the Republic was weakened by the great Sith war. When you put it together, the Mandalorians in the Mando war were weaker. The Mando in the GSW hadn't taken losses from a previous war, they engaged the full might of the Republic and their Jedi and still almost took Coruscant.
Mandalorians were not weak and neither was the Republic, as both of these powers had 50 years to heal themselves before they would clash again.
Mandalorians were reformed in to a much more stronger Force by "Mandalore - The Ultimate".
Here is a description: Building a great, sprawling complex amongst its forests, Mandalore the Ultimate thus established the inhospitable moon as the clans' new forward base of operations and from there recalled the disparate clans. Though few remained to heed his summons, Mandalore was undeterred, instead choosing to increase the recruiting of other species into the fold, thereby forming a new generation of Mandalorian warriors known as the Neo-Crusaders. In time, the Mandalorian ranks swelled with warriors from countless worlds. Humans soon made up the majority, but species as diverse as Twi'leks, Togorians, Kerestians, and Mandallian Giants were well represented. Under Mandalore the Ultimate's direction, the term "Mandalorian" began to signify more than just a species; it referred to a sect of warriors who defined themselves by their devotion to the Mandalorian ideal of earning honor and glory through combat. - Wookieepedia | History of the Mandalorians | TNEC
Now you get the picture? Mandalorians reemerged as far bigger power then before.
Originally posted by Allankles
By contrast the Mandalorians in the Mando Wars never came close to taking a single planet in the core and this after only engaging a small fraction of the Jedi (mostly young Knights and padawans) and a third of the Republic army. The Mando in Revan's time were a weakened version of Kun and Ulic's Mandalorians.
LOL! another load of crap!
Mandalorians never got the chance to reach the Core Worlds because of Jedi Revan's brilliant tactics and plans that halted their invasion.
Mandalorians in Revan's time were far more powerful then before. The above huge paragraph is from canon sources and proves my point.
Originally posted by Allankles
Ponder this Vader administered over an empire far greater than Revan's regime. Darth Krayt actually ruled over an empire spanning the entire galaxy. Darth Bane established the rule of two and would go on to achieve feats such as moving a moon out of orbit. Sadow caused Nova's and held sway over half of the Ancient Sith empire.
Vader was not the leader of that Empire that we see in the movies. It was Sidious and Vader was just doing Sidious's bidding. You surely don't get the bigger picture of events that you see in Star Wars.
Darth Krayt's case has been explained by Darth Sexy above.
Darth Bane got the idea of Rule of Two from Revan and refashioned it in a different way. He nudged a moon and did not pulled it out of its orbit.
Sadow's power did not helped him in Hyperspace War, so all the hype about him is gone. He failed and had to retreat.
Revan, Nihilus and Sidious did not failed as long a they were alive. They were succeeding but betrayals ended their plans. So their cases are different from that of others.