Top 10 force users ( Excludes the Ancienth Sith )

Originally posted by allfg
Updated:
1. Luke Skywalker.
2. Kyp Durron.
3. Darth Bane.
4. Master Revan.
5. Darth Sidious.
6. Darth Nihilus.
7. Exar Kun.
8. Jacen Solo.
9. UnuThul.
10. Lord Nyax.
11. Darth Traya.
12. Darth Sion.
13. The Jedi Exile.
14. Kas'im.
15. Darth Malak.
16. Ulic Quel-Droma.
17. Nomi Sunrider.
18. Lord Hoth.
19. Kyle Katarn.
20. Bastilla Shan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Continued...

Back to round one again and asking me that what did Revan achieved as a Sith? Looks like I am wasting my time on you. May be you should ask Drew about Revan and he might have better answers for you.

And Revan fought in three major wars:

- Mandalorian-Republic War (as a Jedi but became a Sith in the process)
- The Jedi Civil War (as a DLOTS)
- The War of Star Forge (as a reformed Sith)

And don't blame Revan for failing because of a betrayal. Sidious and Nihilus also fell when their apprentices turned against them. When the best of the Sith can go down due to betrayal then Revan was no exception.

Then stop under-rating him. If you don't like him then its fine but you don't tell others that how bad he really was.

War of the star forge? Show's how much you know. There was no war of the star forge, that was a single battle at the end of the JCW in Kotor 1. I'm not blaming Revan for failing I'm just pointing out that as a Sith he started a war and didn't come close to finishing it.

I don't under rate Revan, I'd like to think I rate just right, not overrate him as you seem to do.

Actually, it was called the Battle of the Star Forge, which was called the Sith's greatest defeat, by the time of Darth Bane.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No! leadership does not have to do with anything? right?

Decisions made by Leaders can change the outcome of wars! dude. This has happened in real life as well. Here is an example: Hitler's decision to invade Russia was a disaster and Europe was left vulnerable to Allied Invasion. You have to understand that Leadership plays a crucial role in wars.

Under Revan's leadership: Republic won against the Mandalorian invaders. This is simple canonical reality.

Revan and Malak were the two greatest heroes of the Mandalorian-Republic Wars and not the Exile.

Exile's story shows us that it was a disastrous decision to activate the MSG device. Exile was so shocked that she disconnected from the Force and left everything.

What made you think I doubted the significance of leaders? And you should also be aware that the Exile, Malak and Karath were also leaders. For the Mando wars to be won it needed a concerted effort for all the participants, leaders especially of which Revan was the most celebrated.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Revan masterminded the plans and he was observing the progress of his Forces as well. He had many loyal persons doing his bidding in the conflict. An example: Exile was put in-charge of MSG to activate that device if Mandalorians were winning on the Malachor V because Revan's Forces were already engaged against the Mandalore's Forces outside Malachor in a separate clash. And Exile did what Revan expected from her. This event shows that even if Revan was not present to monitor a conflict, his loyal comrades would do his bidding.

And this has significance, because...? Everyone especially the leaders had a role to play in the war. Revan played his role, as did the other generals and officers.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Here is an eye-opener: Revan ordered the construction of MSG. He then ordered MSG to be deployed in Malachor V. Thus Revan set a trap for Mandalorians by luring them to Malachor V and then he sent his least loyal Forces to engage the Mandalorians on Malachor V. But Revan put his loyal general "Exile" in-charge of MSG device and instructed her that if things go bad then she would activate the device. She did exactly as she was told and Mandalorians were destroyed. The other Mandalorian fleet that engaged Revan's loyal Forces were also destroyed earlier. Thus Revan's plans worked and Republic won.

We know that Revan did this, but he didn't order the activation of the MSG nor was he directly responsible for the carnage that weapon caused. At the end of the day, the decision to activate the MSG was not Revan's and if the right decision aren't made by the people overseeing war from the front lines, the best laid plans come to naught.

You seem to think that ordering the construction of an msg is impressive, it's not a feat it's not an achievment except to those engineers involved with it's construction like Bao Dur.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Excerpt from wookieepedia: The Mass Shadow Generator (MSG) was a superweapon used in the Battle of Malachor V. [b]It was created by the Zabrak tech specialist Bao-Dur, under orders from the Jedi Knight Revan, in the year 3,960 BBY. The weapon was the centerpiece of a trap with which Revan hoped to bring about a conclusive end to the Mandalorian Wars. Overseeing the device's use was a Jedi General (later known as the Jedi Exile). Revan lured the Mandalorians to Malachor and a massive fleet battle ensued in orbit. During the fighting, his loyal general commanded Bao-Dur to activate the secret weapon. Moments later, a significant portion of both fleets were suddenly drawn from orbit into a vast gravity vortex that was powerful enough to crush the countless ships into the planet's crust and fracture Malachor V to its very core.
[/B]

I know what happened, why don't you shorten your posts by sticking to the relevant arguments. Again it's not a unique achievment, in that it doesn't involve any exceptional strategy to execute. Luring the warlike Mandalorians to a planet to do battle is easy, as long as you've arrayed your forces before them.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I have presented a detail of how Revan planned destruction of Mandalorians and his plans worked. Check the above two paragraphs.

He has done lot more then this even.

Here is what Canderous said: "It was not your ships or your men or your vaunted 'fight for freedom' that won this, the final battle of the war. It was by the actions of one person–the Jedi Revan–that you prevailed. Revan's strategies and tactics defeated the best of us. Even Mandalore himself was taken aback by the ferocity, the tenacity, and the subtlety of Revan's Plans. Revan fought us to a standstill and then began pushing us back. We didn't really have a chance." - KOTOR Script

Now you were saying?

An excuse to back-off from the discussion. You surely can't understand what I am trying to telling you or do you?

Your point being? The proof is in the details, where are the details. Kotor 2 establishes that it wasn't just Revan and Malak, there were a host of other war heroes some well covered others only mentioned in passing. What Revan did in that war has no major significance without the details of his exploits in that war. Everything therby becomes nothing but backstory to establish the character firmly in your story (that being Kotor 1).

If you don't get my meaning then there's no point in continuing this discussion.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

LOL!

Revan's Empire crushed the Mandalorians and then went on to crush the Republic and was succeeding but a betrayal put a halt to his plans. Now you are trying to blame Revan for this halt? right?

Nihilus was possibly the product of Revan's dirty plan on Malachor. Sion's history is not yet fully known but Traya also played a part in birth of Sion and Nihilus.

Another BS!

Who's blaming anyone? Revan is a fictional character by Kaspynn (sp), why would I blame him for what is only his backstory? And Revan didn't have anything resembling an empire in the Mando wars, he was a general in charge of a thrid of the Republic forces. He only began having an 'empire' when the military divisions under him defected from the Republic.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Mandalorians were meeting good resistance from Republic Forces as soon as they entered the Republic controlled regions. But Mandalorian tactics were better and thus they prevailed. "The siege of Taris" is one big example of this.

Mandalorians were not weak and neither was the Republic, as both of these powers had 50 years to heal themselves before they would clash again.

Mandalorians were reformed in to a much more stronger Force by "Mandalore - The Ultimate".

I didn't say they were weak I said they were weaker than what they had been before the GSW. And Kotor 2 clearly confirms that the Republic was still recovering from the Kun war when the Mando wars began. So both forces were weaker - not weak.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Here is a description: Building a great, sprawling complex amongst its forests, Mandalore the Ultimate thus established the inhospitable moon as the clans' new forward base of operations and from there recalled the disparate clans. Though few remained to heed his summons, Mandalore was undeterred, instead choosing to increase the recruiting of other species into the fold, thereby forming a new generation of Mandalorian warriors known as the Neo-Crusaders. In time, the Mandalorian ranks swelled with warriors from countless worlds. Humans soon made up the majority, but species as diverse as Twi'leks, Togorians, Kerestians, and Mandallian Giants were well represented. Under Mandalore the Ultimate's direction, the term "Mandalorian" began to signify more than just a species; it referred to a sect of warriors who defined themselves by their devotion to the Mandalorian ideal of earning honor and glory through combat. - Wookieepedia | History of the Mandalorians | TNEC

Now you get the picture? Mandalorians reemerged as far bigger power then before.
LOL! another load of crap!

Which picture? It doesn't say anything about them becoming more powerful than before. It only says that they had lost a great deal of their forces after the GSW and had to recruit from alien species, nowhere does it claim they were more powerful.

You're also conveniently forgetting that (unlike in the GSW) the Mando's were contending with only a third of the Republic army and a small percentage of the Jedi (most of whom were young Knights and padawans). All this after the Republic was still recovering from the GSW (Mical, Kotor 2)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Mandalorians never got the chance to reach the Core Worlds because of Jedi Revan's brilliant tactics and plans that halted their invasion.

Mandalorians in Revan's time were far more powerful then before. The above huge paragraph is from canon sources and proves my point.

Vader was not the leader of that Empire that we see in the movies. It was Sidious and Vader was just doing Sidious's bidding. You surely don't get the bigger picture of events that you see in Star Wars.

Darth Krayt's case has been explained by Darth Sexy above.

Darth Bane got the idea of Rule of Two from Revan and refashioned it in a different way. He nudged a moon and did not pulled it out of its orbit.

Sadow's power did not helped him in Hyperspace War, so all the hype about him is gone. He failed and had to retreat.

Revan, Nihilus and Sidious did not failed as long a they were alive. They were succeeding but betrayals ended their plans. So their cases are different from that of others.

Mandalorians didn't get to the coreworlds because the were halted? Obviously. But you forget that they were outnumbered by a thrid of the Republic army and had already suffered huge losses after the GSW. The point being they were weaker than before.

Revan-the-Sith failed to carry out his plans but worse still, he had a second chance to carry out his plans but failed to take advantage, further tarnishing his legacy as a Sith. Only Sidious and Krayt have overcome the Republic. Bane unlike Revan established a Sith legacy (that went on to claim the galaxy).

Sadow failed (as did Revan the Sith) but he showed an ability with the dark side that has been rivaled by few (Revan not among them). He also ruled over more than a half of one of only three Sith empires in Star Wars - the others being Sidious' and Krayt's galactic empires.

Vader administered (meaning oversaw I didn't say he was the emperor) over a galctic empire far greater than Malak and Revan's military machine and his impact on the Star Wars mythos is greater than any other characters.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Actually, it was called the Battle of the Star Forge, which was called the Sith's greatest defeat, by the time of Darth Bane.

And I said that - a single battle at the end of the JCW. And it was hardly the Sith's greatest defeat, especially when you consider that it was Malak at the head and not only that, but the Sith resurfaced and all but wiped out the Jedi five years later in the first Jedi purge.

Sadow's and Kressh's (sp) defeats were a lot more damaging to the Sith than Malak's (pre Bane).

No offense, Allankles, it wasn't Krayt's empire. Technically it is simply Palpatine's Empire returned to dominance. He didn't do anything but just kill the dude in charge and declare himself Emperor.

I do think that you seriously underestimate Revan's achievements, and I hate the character.

Originally posted by Gideon
No offense, Allankles, it wasn't Krayt's empire. Technically it is simply Palpatine's Empire returned to dominance. He didn't do anything but just kill the dude in charge and declare himself Emperor.

I do think that you seriously underestimate Revan's achievements, and I hate the character.

I didn't say he crafted his own empire, I said he ruled over a galactic empire like Palpatine before him. I know that his empire was a legacy of Palp's Imperial regime. I don't underrate Revan I just have about 6 or 7 names ahead of him in this list. My reasoning prevents him from taking second behind palpy in the Sith rankings, I'd put Vader and guys like Krayt (who actually ruled over a galactic empire) in front of him.

And I understand why you'd say that, Revan is one of those characters whose accomplishments are overrated. In a nutshell he was a war hero in the mando wars, finds a Rakata artifact, then defeats Malak at the end of the JCW and suddenly he's second to Sidious in the Sith rankings? And a top 5 force user in SW?

Let's not get started on how people talk up his military strategies when we've never gotten a single detail on one of them. People want to confuse simple, cheaply designed and overdone back story for actual character relevance. The whole Mando war was simply a Revan back story to start with so why all the hype?

Originally posted by Allankles
And I said that - a single battle at the end of the JCW. And it was hardly the Sith's greatest defeat, especially when you consider that it was Malak at the head and not only that, but the Sith resurfaced and all but wiped out the Jedi five years later in the first Jedi purge.

Sadow's and Kressh's (sp) defeats were a lot more damaging to the Sith than Malak's (pre Bane).

No no, it was stated in POD that the battle of the Star Forge was the greatest defeat of the sith. Considering there were tens of thousands of sith that were all wiped out, including Malak, and the star forge, I tend to agree. And I think your mental timeline is incorrect. After the Jedi Civil War, there were 100 jedi or less remaining, and that's when the 3 sith tried to finish the job, so it WAS the greatest defeat for the sith, and the biggest war up until the Vong War.

Originally posted by Allankles
I didn't say he crafted his own empire, I said he ruled over a galactic empire like Palpatine before him. I know that his empire was a legacy of Palp's Imperial regime. I don't underrate Revan I just have about 6 or 7 names ahead of him in this list. My reasoning prevents him from taking second behind palpy in the Sith rankings, I'd put Vader and guys like Krayt (who actually ruled over a galactic empire) in front of him.

And I understand why you'd say that, Revan is one of those characters whose accomplishments are overrated. In a nutshell he was a war hero in the mando wars, finds a Rakata artifact, then defeats Malak at the end of the JCW and suddenly he's second to Sidious in the Sith rankings? And a top 5 force user in SW?

Let's not get started on how people talk up his military strategies when we've never gotten a single detail on one of them. People want to confuse simple, cheaply designed and overdone back story for actual character relevance. The whole Mando war was simply a Revan back story to start with so why all the hype?

I disagree, completely, and like I said, I can't stand Revan's character due to the fanboyism and bias he's spawned. People who fellate him border on homosexuality, given that his character has been poorly defined (as in traits, attributes, and crap) and gameplay mechanic tries to set him up to be some sort of perfect guy - so I love it when I put down all those theories, and silently curse the KotoR staff for being so gay - and I could go on. 😛

But, I debate fairly, and I think that you're a bit biased. Vader isn't as "great" as Revan in terms of accomplishments. He didn't do anything except execute Palpatine's commands - so the credit ultimately lies with Palpatine and Palpatine alone. In fact, if we are to get technical, Count Dooku did more than Vader did in terms of sheer "accomplishments". But both of them were just pawns, and I wouldn't rank either of them as Top 5 or probably not even Top 10 "greatest Sith ever".

So, firstly, I think it does nothing for your argument to try to cheapen Revan's military genius. He was an outrageously superb tactition (not average and not just "above average"😉. People who speak of his talents were also people who fought along side and against him, so you can't just refute their statements about him. So, please accept it that it is a fact: Revan is an outstanding tactition.

Secondly, Revan got pretty damn close to doing what Sidious did through subterfuge - except he did it during warfare. True, it lacks the subtlety or greatness (it'd be harder to conquer a galaxy through manipulation, in my opinion, than warfare) - but he got damn well close nonetheless, and there's no telling what might have happened had Malak not betrayed him.

Thirdly, like it or not (and believe me, I don't), Revan is Bane's direct inspiration for the Rule of Two, which is what allowed the Sith to survive. Had that not happened, it is likely that the Sith would have been wiped out - and Sidious would never have achieved the things he did. We can give a quiet round of applause to Revan for that.

Fourthly, Revan managed to do some outstanding things - though part of the dark side for a small amount of time - and his knowledge base surpassed Bane's own as well as the entire library on Korriban. That is very, very impressive, considering most Sith masters couldn't even begin to attempt to use some of the things Revan learned.

So, nah. I'm sorry. I hate Revan. I really, really hate Revan and I'm not ashamed to admit it - and if you look at any of my threads involving him, the hate is there. But what you're doing is, in my opinion, ridiculous. There's no reason to downplay a character we don't like. Perhaps we won't defend him or her as much, but still.

Revan is definately one of the very greatest Sith of all time, and he's likely one of the most powerful.

Go Revan, WOOHOO

what about vader?

Originally posted by Kadesh
what about vader?

Vader is not on par with people like Palpatine and Revan in achievements. He didn't really accomplish much, but rather - helped to execute some of Palpatine's plans. But, the credit doesn't go to him. It goes to the Emperor. Just because he was his right hand man doesn't mean much.

I will say though, you could argue that Vader had a major accomplishment in hunting down the Jedi after the declaration of the Empire.

U agree with everything you said, vader was a great sith but still, he lacks a lot when we look to greatest ones.

I'd say the greatest are Sidious, Bane and Ragnos, and maybe Exar. The fact that Revan turned back to the light takes away all the greatness for me.

Who hear you thinks that the dark is better then the lightside lol

You know, I just read some LotF, and I'm starting to think that Jacen's damn strong with the force, in some ways beyond Luke, but his strengths don't really lie in combat.

Sidious is - by far - the greatest Sith Lord ever. His accomplishments WTFpwn all of his predecessors, and he succeeded where they failed. However, Revan is definately up there. He managed to conquer a considerable portion of the galaxy via amazing tactics and military force - as well as the knowledge he managed to obtain in such a small amount of time. He also served as the direct inspiration for Bane's teachings (though I hate it), so if there wasn't Revan - Bane wouldn't have managed to institute the Rule of Two. Bane is also up there, for executing and perfecting the doctrine that allowed the Sith to survive for so long under the Jedi's radar. And, I suppose, Ragnos could also be considered a candidate for one of the best given that he managed to lead a Sith-based regime for a century (which is outstanding), though he didn't achieve anything militaristic or in the name of total dominance.

As for Krayt... people give so much hype about him, simply that he rules the galaxy. That is a considerable feat, but it is in no credit to him. He simply killed off the "true" Emperor and declared himself the head honcho, and the Empire he's leading can be credited to Sidious. But I will grant him that he deserves credit for "ruling the galaxy" given that only one other Sith Lord has done that.

Edit: Jacen's strength lies more in his broad knowledge. But he's a killer in combat, too.

Krayt's not even a proper sith; he's a fake, and could never be considered a great sith. Hell, Bane and Andeddu (and I'm guessing Nihilus too) didn't even recognise him as a sith.

Revan probably would be #2, if not for his turning back to the lightside. I'd honestly say it goes:
1. Darth Sidious - defeating the jedi order, and taking over the galaxy.

2. Marka Ragnos - ruling over the sith's golden age for centuries with an iron fist.

3. Darth Bane - Implimented the Rule of Two, and may well be the sith's chosen one.

4. Exar Kun - Destroyed the Library at Ossus, and kicked the jedi order's butt badman style.

5. I'm kinda stuck here. Nihilus maybe?

Sidious is #1. This is clear
As much as I love Ragnos, Revan is definitely deserving of #2 because of his accomplishments, that trump everyone elses except Sidious.
Ragnos WOULD go in 3 due in part to him passing down ancient knowledge over the centuries, crowning the new DLOTS, helping future sith lords with ancient sith knowledge, etc. Not to mention he was the strongest and greatest of the ancietn sith. Bane and Kun would be 4 and 5, respectively.