But Revan turned back to the lightside, so he can hardly be considered a great sith, period, because when talking about greatness when it comes to sith, we're talking in respect to their ideology, and the lightside pretty much represents the opposite of that ideology - love, compassion etc., and turning away from the darkside and back to the lightside is pretty much the worst thing a sith could possibly do.
Him turning back to the lightside is irrelevant, especially since he was more powerful as a Jedi. And what the hell are you babbling about? When we talk about greatness, we talk about their accomplishments, EVERYBODY knows this so I don't know why you're attempting to play stupid. In terms of GREATNESS aka ACCOMPLISHMENTS, Revan trumps everybody but Sidious.
We're not talking about who's the greatest force user, we're talking about who's the greatest sith. Yes, there's a difference, and based on sith ideology, turning away from the darkside and back to the light (as well as wiping out the then current sith) is pretty much the biggest sin. It simply takes away all the accomplishments he did as a sith, seeing as he cancelled all that out during the Battle of the Star Forge. It's also heavily implied that he might wipe out the 'true sith' in the unknown regions, so really, considering he did more for the jedi and more against the sith than he actually did for the sith, he can hardly be considered a great sith.
Originally posted by Gideon
I disagree, completely, and like I said, I can't [B]stand Revan's character due to the fanboyism and bias he's spawned. People who fellate him border on homosexuality, given that his character has been poorly defined (as in traits, attributes, and crap) and gameplay mechanic tries to set him up to be some sort of perfect guy - so I love it when I put down all those theories, and silently curse the KotoR staff for being so gay - and I could go on. 😛But, I debate fairly, and I think that you're a bit biased. Vader isn't as "great" as Revan in terms of accomplishments. He didn't do anything except execute Palpatine's commands - so the credit ultimately lies with Palpatine and Palpatine alone. In fact, if we are to get technical, Count Dooku did more than Vader did in terms of sheer "accomplishments". But both of them were just pawns, and I wouldn't rank either of them as Top 5 or probably not even Top 10 "greatest Sith ever".
So, firstly, I think it does nothing for your argument to try to cheapen Revan's military genius. He was an outrageously superb tactition (not average and not just "above average"😉. People who speak of his talents were also people who fought along side and against him, so you can't just refute their statements about him. So, please accept it that it is a fact: Revan is an outstanding tactition.
Secondly, Revan got pretty damn close to doing what Sidious did through subterfuge - except he did it during warfare. True, it lacks the subtlety or greatness (it'd be harder to conquer a galaxy through manipulation, in my opinion, than warfare) - but he got damn well close nonetheless, and there's no telling what might have happened had Malak not betrayed him.
Thirdly, like it or not (and believe me, I don't), Revan is Bane's direct inspiration for the Rule of Two, which is what allowed the Sith to survive. Had that not happened, it is likely that the Sith would have been wiped out - and Sidious would never have achieved the things he did. We can give a quiet round of applause to Revan for that.
Fourthly, Revan managed to do some outstanding things - though part of the dark side for a small amount of time - and his knowledge base surpassed Bane's own as well as the entire library on Korriban. That is very, very impressive, considering most Sith masters couldn't even begin to attempt to use some of the things Revan learned.
So, nah. I'm sorry. I hate Revan. I really, really hate Revan and I'm not ashamed to admit it - and if you look at any of my threads involving him, the hate is there. But what you're doing is, in my opinion, ridiculous. There's no reason to downplay a character we don't like. Perhaps we won't defend him or her as much, but still.
Revan is definately one of the very greatest Sith of all time, and he's likely one of the most powerful. [/B]
For a guy who doesn't like Revan, you seem to give him a lot more credit than is due. For one there's no evidence of Revan's 'genius' beyond the here say that made up little bits of his backstory in Kotor 1, so to assume he's an exceptional military genius based on that is a bit silly IMO.
Secondly to right off Vader's influence on the Empire as just "Palpatine's orders" is not only wrong but shows an absolute lack of regard for what Vader represented. He was the very face of the Sith, the unbeatable, indomitable presence that ensured stability within and without the Empire.
He was the cog that ensured everything in the Empire run as the Sith deemed fit. Revan was nowhere near the overbearing overlord Vader was to the galactic Empire. Palpatine may have been the ultimate authority in the Empire, but Vader was very much the ultimate supervisor in the Empire.
Thirdly, retcon or not Revan's influence over Bane's actions is only EU-canon. Bane's forging of the rule of two is G-canon, unchangeable outside of Lucas' say so. It was Lucas who designated Bane as the author of the 'rule of two'.
It would be down right retarded to give the honour to Revan seeing as he never authored the rule of two as is evident in Kotor 1 and star wars canon. I know Bane found Revan's holo. in POD but he might as well have found Mother Theresa's because it wouldn't change the fact that the rule-of-two started with Bane and no one else.
Again, how does Revan's inclusion in POD change the fact that the rule-of-two was already credited to Bane long before POD was published? What a silly argument.
And so what he had a 'vast amount of knowledge'? How does that affect his importance or influence in the Star Wars mythos? Traya likely had more knowledge of the force than Revan (note: I said likely) why don't I hear praises for her and her vast knowledge base?
It's not about knowledge or even the number of accomplishments authors retcon for a character, it's about overall impact on the mythos based on the relevant outcomes of the stories.
Hyping a character with a number of irrelevant attributes doesn't automatically make that character great. Again I don't underestimate Revan I could quite easily put him in the top 10 of this list, I just don't believe he's anywhere close to being the second or third greatest Sith behind Palpy.
For a guy who doesn't like Revan, you seem to give him a lot more credit than is due. For one there's no evidence of Revan's 'genius' beyond the here say that made up little bits of his backstory in Kotor 1, so to assume he's an exceptional military genius based on that is a bit silly IMO.
And for a guy who doesn't underrated Revan, you seem to make up pretty silly excuses to cheapen what he did. I couldn't care less if you don't think I like Revan; ask anyone who has argued with me before. Ask Darth Sexy or Noobaris, and they can tell you that I absolutely detest the character. But I'm not going to attempt to cheapen what the continuity has made of him.
We have accounts of people who have battled alongside and against him testifying to his genius. It's unquestionable. Period.
Secondly to right off Vader's influence on the Empire as just "Palpatine's orders" is not only wrong but shows an absolute lack of regard for what Vader represented. He was the very face of the Sith, the unbeatable, indomitable presence that ensured stability within and without the Empire.
Riiiight. No, Lucas has made it clear in a multitude of interviews - Vader was "just a flunky". Imperial officers only feared him because he was the Emperor's right hand man. In fact, even that didn't always work. Tarkin was seen giving Vader orders and that one Imperial officer arrogantly questioned him in front of the council.
He was the cog that ensured everything in the Empire run as the Sith deemed fit. Revan was nowhere near the overbearing overlord Vader was to the galactic Empire. Palpatine may have been the ultimate authority in the Empire, but Vader was very much the ultimate supervisor in the Empire.
Sorry, that makes no sense. "Supervisor" = highest in command. Sidious was the final authority. Sidious was the supreme ruler. Sidious said "jump" and Vader said "how high, master?" Don't, for a second, attempt to confuse their roles. Everyone did what Vader commanded because Sidious was behind him. It was Palpatine's Empire, and Vader was just a flunky.
Thirdly, retcon or not Revan's influence over Bane's actions is only EU-canon. Bane's forging of the rule of two is G-canon, unchangeable outside of Lucas' say so. It was Lucas who designated Bane as the author of the 'rule of two'.
No.
Bane gets the credit for "implementing" the Rule of Two. Never was it said that it was completely Bane's brainchild. Revan served as direct inspiration for it, and that is canon.
It would be down right retarded to give the honour to Revan seeing as he never authored the rule of two as is evident in Kotor 1 and star wars canon. I know Bane found Revan's holo. in POD but he might as well have found Mother Theresa's because it wouldn't change the fact that the rule-of-two started with Bane and no one else.
Wrong. Had he not found it and learned from Revan, the Rule of Two wouldn't be around. Period.
Again, how does Revan's inclusion in POD change the fact that the rule-of-two was already credited to Bane long before POD was published? What a silly argument.
No. It's a retcon and a perfectly valid one. Your excuses are the only thing "silly" around here.
And so what he had a 'vast amount of knowledge'? How does that affect his importance or influence in the Star Wars mythos? Traya likely had more knowledge of the force than Revan (note: I said likely) why don't I hear praises for her and her vast knowledge base?
Because this thread isn't about Traya, silly. 🙂
It's not about knowledge or even the number of accomplishments authors retcon for a character, it's about overall impact on the mythos based on the relevant outcomes of the stories.
Around here, "greatness" = "achievements". Not "impact on Star Wars mythos", otherwise it could be argued that Shmi Skywalker is the best thing that ever happened to this universe.
Hyping a character with a number of irrelevant attributes doesn't automatically make that character great. Again I don't underestimate Revan I could quite easily put him in the top 10 of this list, I just don't believe he's anywhere close to being the second or third greatest Sith behind Palpy.
Right.
Originally posted by Gideon
And for a guy who doesn't underrated Revan, you seem to make up pretty silly excuses to cheapen what he did. I couldn't care less if you don't think I like Revan; ask anyone who has argued with me before. Ask Darth Sexy or Noobaris, and they can tell you that I absolutely [B]detest the character. But I'm not going to attempt to cheapen what the continuity has made of him.We have accounts of people who have battled alongside and against him testifying to his genius. It's unquestionable. Period.
Riiiight. No, Lucas has made it clear in a multitude of interviews - Vader was "just a flunky". Imperial officers only feared him because he was the Emperor's right hand man. In fact, even that didn't always work. Tarkin was seen giving Vader orders and that one Imperial officer arrogantly questioned him in front of the council.
Sorry, that makes no sense. "Supervisor" = highest in command. Sidious was the final authority. Sidious was the supreme ruler. Sidious said "jump" and Vader said "how high, master?" Don't, for a second, attempt to confuse their roles. Everyone did what Vader commanded because Sidious was behind him. It was Palpatine's Empire, and Vader was just a flunky.
No.
Bane gets the credit for "implementing" the Rule of Two. Never was it said that it was completely Bane's brainchild. Revan served as direct inspiration for it, and that is canon.
Wrong. Had he not found it and learned from Revan, the Rule of Two wouldn't be around. Period.
No. It's a retcon and a perfectly valid one. Your excuses are the only thing "silly" around here.
Because this thread isn't about Traya, silly. 🙂
Around here, "greatness" = "achievements". Not "impact on Star Wars mythos", otherwise it could be argued that Shmi Skywalker is the best thing that ever happened to this universe.
Right. [/B]
Why do I sense a great measure of annoyance in your post, if that definitive balance known as impartiality is all you're after? I'm not being serious here, I find it laughable that you can claim to be the voice of impartiality here, you obviously don't think highly of Vader if you think all he is is a flunky (an obvious over simplification of Vader's role in the Empire). Name one thing about Revan that I've underrated?
His military genius? Undefined.
His influence over Bane's rule-of-two? A meaningless, unecessary retcon unless you're telling me it was necessary for Karpyshyn (sp) to retcon this part of Bane's story. And don't tell me that this retcon is relevant to Bane's legacy, it was done with no consideration to the overall context of the story (the rise of Darth Bane in this case).
If not for Revan, Bane wouldn't have implemented the rule of two? Since when? Since Karpyshyn's POD? 🙄 When it is a known fact that the rule-of-two had been attached to Bane a long time before POD was ever published? Long before Revan was ever created as a character? I'm not even underrating Revan here, I'm pointing out how his presence in POD is absolutely irrelevant to the story there.
He functions as nothing more than a cheaply drawn story device - unless you want to tell me there's more to his presence in POD than as a story device and that POD is secretly about Revan's legacy?
You find me the relevance of a meaningless, over done retcon and maybe we'll have something to discuss here.
His achievements as a Sith? You tell me the one thing he did as a Sith that makes him a shoe-in for second or third in the rankings? And don't go off on SW legend-like tangents on Revan's Kotor backstory: just the relevant achievements.
Whether or not you rate Vader or not makes no difference to the fact that his a larger than life character that has transcended the star wars franchise.
Within the mythos itself he was the head overseer only outranked by the Emperor. And you're also forgetting that Tarkin was the head of the death star project, (a project Vader had little interest in). Tarkin was also the most powerful and influencial Moff in the Empire. .
You tell me anywhere else Vader would have followed Tarkin's orders outside of Death Star 1 (where Tarkin was in charge)?
Lastly how does Vader's rank in the administration of the death star undermine his overall importance to the Galactic Empire?
Originally posted by Allankles
Why do I sense a great measure of annoyance in your post, if that definitive balance known as impartiality is all you're after? I'm not being serious here, I find it laughable that you can claim to be the voice of impartiality here, you obviously don't think highly of Vader if you think all he is is a flunky (an obvious over simplification of Vader's role in the Empire). Name one thing about Revan that I've underrated?
His military genius? Undefined.
His influence over Bane's rule-of-two? A meaningless, unecessary retcon unless you're telling me it was necessary for Karpyshyn (sp) to retcon this part of Bane's story. And don't tell me that this retcon is relevant to Bane's legacy, it was done with no consideration to the overall context of the story (the rise of Darth Bane in this case).
If not for Revan, Bane wouldn't have implemented the rule of two? Since when? Since Karpyshyn's POD? 🙄 When it is a known fact that the rule-of-two had been attached to Bane a long time before POD was ever published? Long before Revan was ever created as a character? I'm not even underrating Revan here, I'm pointing out how his presence in POD is absolutely irrelevant to the story there.
He functions as nothing more than a cheaply drawn story device - unless you want to tell me there's more to his presence in POD than as a story device and that POD is secretly about Revan's legacy?
You find me the relevance of a meaningless, over done retcon and maybe we'll have something to discuss here.
His achievements as a Sith? You tell me the one thing he did as a Sith that makes him a shoe-in for second or third in the rankings? And don't go off on SW legend-like tangents on Revan's Kotor backstory: just the relevant achievements.
Whether or not you rate Vader or not makes no difference to the fact that his a larger than life character that has transcended the star wars franchise.
Stop with the bullshit, it's getting old.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Because Escape is allergic to stupidity and illogical postings, and I suggest you read his shit again because it was pwnage.Undefined? Hardly. From the accounts of all of the people close to him, his effect on everybody, and him being within a "hairsbreadth" of conquering the republic by force, I'd say his military genius is defined, and second only to Thrawn.
Meaningless? Unnecessary Retcon? Man you really have no idea what you're talking about, nor any concept of canon. Revan gave him the idea for the ROT, this is CANON as it overrides POD, whether you like it or not.
Yes, lets play a game of "I will ignore canon because it doesn't fit in with my opinion".
Yes lets take a shot at Revan because you don't agree with it, yet it's canon.
Retcon is retcon, get over it.
Gee lets see, almost destroying the republic, destroying the mandalorians, destroying the sith as a Jedi, giving Bane the idea for the rule of two, being the "Luke Skywalker" of his time in terms of destiny. Yea he's NOT #2. Please.
Sure it has, which has absolutely no bearing on his achievements.
Stop with the bullshit, it's getting old.
Which illogical postings? And the day you make me believe that Revan made Bane, is the day I'll give a care to POD's retcon (the word irrelevant was created for moments like these).
Here's the condensed version of my argument on this point:
Bane came before Revan; The rule-of-two predated Revan; the rule of two was credited to Bane before Revan was ever published as a character. Revan never implemented the rule-of-two or anything similar to it in the short time he was a Sith, so why should it be plausible that Bane learns it from him? And you expect me to find this relevant? Even if I give Revan credit here, this is hardly an impressive feat.
Destroyed the Republic? Wrong. He didn't destroy the Republic.
His military genius is defined? Where are the details of his mando exploits so that I may read them? A few backstory statements from Kotor 1 NPC's doesn't scream 'defined' for me, like it does for you - sorry, it's not irrational to disagree here.
Destroying the Mando's? Impressive but he didn't do it single handedly, and he's not the only Sith whose been a Jedi war hero.
Luke Skywalker of his time? Sure, if Luke's greatest achievement in his time was defeating his ex - apprentice in combat.
Originally posted by Allankles
Which illogical postings? And the day you make me believe that Revan made Bane, is the day I'll give a care to POD's retcon (the word irrelevant was created for moments like these).
Bane came before Revan; The rule-of-two predated Revan; the rule of two was credited to Bane before Revan was ever published as a character. Revan never implemented the rule-of-two or anything similar to it in the short time he was a Sith, so why should it be plausible that Bane learns it from him? And you expect me to find this relevant? Even if I give Revan credit here, this is hardly an impressive feat.
Destroyed the Republic? Wrong. He didn't destroy the Republic.
His military genius is defined? Where are the details of his mando exploits so that I may read them? A few backstory statements from Kotor 1 NPC's doesn't scream 'defined' for me, like it does for you - sorry, it's not irrational to disagree here.Destroying the Mando's? Impressive but he didn't do it single handedly, and he's not the only Sith whose been a Jedi war hero.
Luke Skywalker of his time? Sure, if Luke's greatest achievement in his time was defeating his ex - apprentice in combat. [/B]
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Guess what nancy boy, I don't give a monkey crap whether you care about POD's retcon, because it's canon and overwrites nearly the entire BOTS story. And yes, Revan DID make Bane but BANE was smart enough to do something with Revan's knowledge.Bane came before Revan? Uh what? The rule of two predated Revan? Really? I suppose you have proof, since I have proof that Revan created it, good try. Who cares what Revan implemented, and if you think about it, he did have only ONE apprentice which he taught everything to, so in a way he DID implement it.
Where did I say he destroyed the Republic? Don't add words into my own text to try and win your argument.
Guess the accounts of Canderous, all of Revan's friends, the Jedi, etc, are useless huh?
His accomplishments and destiny make him the Luke of his time, deal with it.
What's the point?! 😕 I say one thing and you take it to mean the other. Bane and Revan have nothing to relate with besides being affiliated to the Sith. Bane was created long before Revan so how the hell does, Revan make Bane? I was of the impression that POD was Bane's story not Revan's? Revan's presence in POD is not consistent with the context of the story, so forgive me if I choose to disagree.
Bane came before Revan i.e. he was created well before Bioware did Kotor 1. The rule-of-two existed long before before Kotor 1was published. And Revan implemented the rule-of-two? Care to explain all the Sith academies and Sith Lords waltzing around in Kotor 1? By your reasoning Kun and Ulic implemented some version of the rule-of two themselves. It's the rule of two i.e. two Sith in all the galaxy, not merely a Dark Lord and an apprentice.
Yeah! Guess, a few sentences by NPC's give a crystal clear detail picture of Revan's tactical abilities in war. Get over it, there's very little effort given by the story writers to elaborate on Revan's tactical abilities.
The Luke of his time? Yes, if Luke's greatest achievement in his time was getting revenge on his apprentice. He can hardly be the Luke of his time when he's not the most powerful in the force (there's Nihilus) and when his biggest achievement is just beating on a Sith Lord who was always weaker than him. As for how great his destiny is, that will depend on the Kotor 3 authors.
Originally posted by Allankles
What's the point?! 😕 I say one thing and you take it to mean the other. Bane and Revan have nothing to relate with besides being affiliated to the Sith. Bane was created long before Revan so how the hell does, Revan make Bane? I was of the impression that POD was Bane's story not Revan's? Revan's presence in POD is not consistent with the context of the story, so forgive me if I choose to disagree.
Bane came before Revan i.e. he was created well before Bioware did Kotor 1. The rule-of-two existed long before before Kotor 1was published. And Revan implemented the rule-of-two? Care to explain all the Sith academies and Sith Lords waltzing around in Kotor 1? By your reasoning Kun and Ulic implemented some version of the rule-of two themselves. It's the rule of two i.e. two Sith in all the galaxy, not merely a Dark Lord and an apprentice.
Yeah! Guess, a few sentences by NPC's give a crystal clear detail picture of Revan's tactical abilities in war. Get over it, there's very little effort given by the story writers to elaborate on Revan's tactical abilities.
The Luke of his time? Yes, if Luke's greatest achievement in his time was getting revenge on his apprentice. He can hardly be the Luke of his time when he's not the most powerful in the force (there's Nihilus) and when his biggest achievement is just beating on a Sith Lord who was always weaker than him. As for how great his destiny is, that will depend on the Kotor 3 authors. [/B]
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Who in the hell cares which character was created first? How is this even part of your 'argument'? If you read POD, Revan sorta makes Bane. POD's story is Bane's with the verbal fellatio of Revan, so if you choose to disagree, do it within the canon sources.
I admit, it doesn't matter who was created first, what matters is that the rule of two was already designated to Bane long before Revan was created.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I guess you have NO concept of canon whatsoever. It doesn't matter when the characters were created, the future stories connected the dots, and it has Revan introducing the rule of two. If you can't accept it it's your problem, but I'm not going to argue with somebody that has absolutely NO concept of canon and whose sole argument is "Well this character was created first".
The future stories are not part of reality, they are part of fiction and as such don't need to be connected especially in this one instance. Just pointing out how irrelevant Revan's presence in POD is. Fictionally, the rule-of-two was already designated to Bane, any add-on to that legacy is meaningless to the legacy of Bane.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except that he was a master tactician and strategist, so details are irrelevant.
Except that we never read or got to see him functioning as a master tactician and strategist, effectively making the attribute redundant in an assessment of Revan the character. It's like this, Dooku was said to be master duelist and there have been detailed instances where he's proven his mastery of the saber. Revan's military genius is nothing but backstory overlayed to give the Revan NPC some background in Kotor 1.
The Mando wars themselves were intially nothing but a Revan back story with no detail before Kotor 2 and the Zayne Carrick comics. Am I underrating Revan here? Maybe, but the proof is in the details - and there are none here
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Uh Revan WAS the most powerful of his time, more powerful than Nihilus. Nihilus had a force drain, and what? You have no point, Revan was #1 of his time, don't argue with canon.
Did he achieve a force feat on the scale of Nihilus' force drain? And Nihilus had other force abilities as is evident by the fact that he stuns the Exile and purnishes Visas with some version of force crush. Is there any doubt of Nihilus' command of the dark side?
It is made clear in Kotor 2 that only the Exile's special condition could stop Nihilus, raising serious doubts about where Revan stands in the raw power stakes. I'd put Nihilus above him in terms of raw power in the force.
And I wasn't aware that ranking characters was part of Star Wars 'canon'.
Originally posted by Allankles
I admit, it doesn't matter who was created first, what matters is that the rule of two was already designated to Bane long before Revan was created.
The future stories are not part of reality, they are part of fiction and as such don't need to be connected especially in this one instance. Just pointing out how irrelevant Revan's presence in POD is. Fictionally, the rule-of-two was already designated to Bane, any add-on to that legacy is meaningless to the legacy of Bane.
Except that we never read or got to see him functioning as a master tactician and strategist, effectively making the attribute redundant in an assessment of Revan the character. It's like this, Dooku was said to be master duelist and there have been detailed instances where he's proven his mastery of the saber. Revan's military genius is nothing but backstory overlayed to give the Revan NPC some background in Kotor 1.
The Mando wars themselves were intially nothing but a Revan back story with no detail before Kotor 2 and the Zayne Carrick comics. Am I underrating Revan here? Maybe, but the proof is in the details - and there are none here
Did he achieve a force feat on the scale of Nihilus' force drain? And Nihilus had other force abilities as is evident by the fact that he stuns the Exile and purnishes Visas with some version of force crush. Is there any doubt of Nihilus' command of the dark side?
It is made clear in Kotor 2 that only the Exile's special condition could stop Nihilus, raising serious doubts about where Revan stands in the raw power stakes. I'd put Nihilus above him in terms of raw power in the force.
Originally posted by Gideoni was referring to the top 10 or maybe top 5 of most powerful sith, i just think vader deserves it, Too many people downplaying vader in terms of power and i dont like it
Vader is not on par with people like Palpatine and Revan in achievements. He didn't really accomplish much, but rather - helped to execute some of Palpatine's plans. But, the credit doesn't go to him. It goes to the Emperor. Just because he was his right hand man doesn't mean much.I will say though, you could argue that Vader had a major accomplishment in hunting down the Jedi after the declaration of the Empire.
No, Vader did jack all. He was a pawn just like the rest of Palpatines apprentices. His accomplishments were minimal, most of the things he did were orchestrated by Sidious. He was never extremely powerful, his accident on Mustafar made sure of that. While he is good he is far from the best and certainly doesnt deserve a place in the Top 5.
Originally posted by allfgNot very powerful? I think being able to shake down a 20 story building killing everything in it is pretty amazing, By the way it happened in a cut-scene in eaw and he was stated by SOtE and many other novels to be a great force users, FFS no body cares what you think n00baris, you are so biased that you even put bastila above him and by the way the "logic" you have shown to us is horrible, anybody who has lightning >>> vader which includes r2d2 due to him having an electric zapper. Just read SOtE and Empire comics, it would shut your n00bish mouth retard
He's really not very powerful. As a duelist, he is terrible, refer to the movies, and as a force user, he's pretty average in the grand scheme of things. Sidious, Nihilus, Ragnos, Bane, Revan, Exar Kun, Kas'im, Sion, Traya and many others are far above him.
Not very powerful? I think being able to shake down a 20 story building killing everything in it is pretty amazing, By the way it happened in a cut-scene in eaw
I just asked someone who has played EAW whether what you're saying is true, and apparently, you're lying.
and he was stated by SOtE and many other novels to be a great force users,
Who isn't? Should the other countless no named jedi who were also said to be great force users be considered relatively powerful in comparison to the powerhouses too?
FFS no body cares what you think n00baris, you are so biased that you even put bastila above him and by the way the "logic" you have shown to us is horrible, anybody who has lightning >>> vader which includes r2d2 due to him having an electric zapper.
I'm one of the few people who actually disagrees with the whole lightning argument, so get your facts straight.
Just read SOtE and Empire comics, it would shut your n00bish mouth retard
Quit with the needless insults dude, and learn how to debate. Just telling someone to read this and that doesn't quite cut it; it's up to you to provide your own prove, it's on you.