Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Sidious > YodaThe novel makes that clear... Yoda admits he simply wasnt strong enough to defeat the new sith threat, which is why he made his retreat to await the coming of Luke.
The Movie doesn't.
The ROTS Novel is completely nullified. It's out of this debate. Lucas has explained things that go directly against the Novel in the commentary and there is several contradictions in the Novel itself, such as Kit losing his head.
Last time I checked, Yoda was at the least on par with Sidious during that fight until Yoda's OWN blast of energy knocked him two hundred feet down to the Senate Chamber floors.
Originally posted by IKC
Contradiction doesn't make it non-C-Canon. Yoda overpowered everything Sidious gave him. Yoda was more powerful, ergo on even ground Yoda would have won. QED.
Im really not familar with all these 'levels of canon'...sorry I just never cared about it that much.
And even if Yoda did overpower Sidious in that one struggle, smaller battles are won or lost throughout any given fight...it is the final outcome that classifies the winner. And that final outcome was Yoda running away.
Originally posted by AntediluvianLast time I checked, Yoda was at the least on par with Sidious during that fight until Yoda's OWN blast of energy knocked him two hundred feet down to the Senate Chamber floors.
Just because it was Yodas own blast of energy doesnt make it alright. It can mean two things. That Yoda is unable to control his own force abilities because he is not skilled enough. I think we can all agree thats not true. Or Sids is strong enough to counter the best Yoda has to offer.
Maybe if Yoda had worked the terrain to his advantage he would have won but only maybe. The fact is Sids was smart enough to get the high ground and get into better positions to pull off the victory. Yoda either wasnt smart enough or couldnt get the better positions and that is why he failed.
Actually, considering Mace and Yoda are apparently on par, one could say Yoda could have smashed Sidious on flat ground.
He had the upper fight for what . . . the entire fight? Hell, when he was lobbing Pods at Yoda, he was doing it from above. The second Yoda decided to retort to his actions by throwing ONE back at him, Sidious hopped off that Pod like a b*tch.
Actually, he barely hopped off of it.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Just because it was Yodas own blast of energy doesnt make it alright. It can mean two things. That Yoda is unable to control his own force abilities because he is not skilled enough. I think we can all agree thats not true. Or Sids is strong enough to counter the best Yoda has to offer.Maybe if Yoda had worked the terrain to his advantage he would have won but only maybe. The fact is Sids was smart enough to get the high ground and get into better positions to pull off the victory. Yoda either wasnt smart enough or couldnt get the better positions and that is why he failed.
Sidious countered it? LOL! He flew off as well. He didn't go as far because he doesn't weigh around fourty pounds like Yoda does.
Sidious was also cowardly and kept distance, throwing pods and trying to run off at the beginning of the fight. When they were fighting, they were on par in Lightsaber combat.
Force? On par.
I wonder what would have happen if Sidious weighed as much as Yoda did. I wonder what would have happened if he dropped from that height.
Think he wouldn't have ran if he had the chance? Didn't he try the first time?
Originally posted by Antediluvian
Actually, considering Mace and Yoda are apparently on par, one could say Yoda could have smashed Sidious on flat ground.He had the upper fight for what . . . the entire fight? Hell, when he was lobbing Pods at Yoda, he was doing it from above. The second Yoda decided to retort to his actions by throwing [B]ONE
back at him, Sidious hopped off that Pod like a b*tch.Actually, he barely hopped off of it. [/B]
One could say that but you are coming to an A>B>C argument. Dont think that I like Sidious because I hate him (he told Anakin to chop of Dookus head the bastard) but the truth is that Sids won that battle and there is nothing to say he wouldnt win again on flat ground. I completely agree with your statements about the pods though.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
One could say that but you are coming to an A>B>C argument. Dont think that I like Sidious because I hate him (he told Anakin to chop of Dookus head the bastard) but the truth is that Sids won that battle and there is nothing to say he wouldnt win again on flat ground. I completely agree with your statements about the pods though.
Okay, that's not even an ABC Argument and I didn't slap it down as my stone-cold opinion.
And it just so happens that the databank states they're on par.
He didn't win that battle!
You see, if Sidious had his Lightsaber to Yodas throat or killed him, he would have won.
When someone leaves the fight because they just fell two hundred feet from their own blast after being on par with that person the entire fight . . .
That ain't winning, and Sidious didn't win. Sidious was barely able to keep up and he had the higher ground.
What's going to happen to him when they're on straight ground?
Well, considering that Sidious beat Yoda on UNEVEN ground, it's not exactly proof that Sidious can beat Yoda on EVEN ground. Not saying he can't, but it doesn't quite justify it, especially if the setting (which hasn't been clarified by the creator of this thread yet) is flat, where there CAN'T BE a high ground advantage.
Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Well, considering that Sidious beat Yoda on UNEVEN ground, it's not exactly proof that Sidious can beat Yoda on EVEN ground. Not saying he can't, but it doesn't quite justify it, especially if the setting (which hasn't been clarified by the creator of this thread yet) is flat, where there CAN'T BE a high ground advantage.
Sidious never beat anyone, as explained previously.
The fact that the high ground is an advantage in the Star Wars Universe was proven at the end of that movie. Kenobi said it himself.
Bottom line is they were on par the ENTIRE fight and Sidious had the high ground.
Originally posted by Antediluvian
Okay, that's not even an ABC Argument and I didn't slap it down as my stone-cold opinion.And it just so happens that the databank states they're on par.
He didn't win that battle!
You see, if Sidious had his Lightsaber to Yodas throat or killed him, he would have won.
When someone leaves the fight because they just fell two hundred feet from their own blast after being on par with that person the entire fight . . .
That ain't winning, and Sidious didn't win. Sidious was barely able to keep up and he had the higher ground.
What's going to happen to him when they're on straight ground?
Im not saying that Yoda wouldnt win on flat ground. What im saying is that because Sids won (Yes won!) the fight in ROTS it is only logical that he coud win on flat ground as well. For the record I agree that Sids was probably only winning from the high ground but he was smart enough to get there in the first place. There is no reason to say he wouldnt outsmart Yoda again on flat ground.
Originally posted by Antediluvian
Okay, that's not even an ABC Argument and I didn't slap it down as my stone-cold opinion.And it just so happens that the databank states they're on par.
He didn't win that battle!
You see, if Sidious had his Lightsaber to Yodas throat or killed him, he would have won.
When someone leaves the fight because they just fell two hundred feet from their own blast after being on par with that person the entire fight . . .
That ain't winning, and Sidious didn't win. Sidious was barely able to keep up and he had the higher ground.
What's going to happen to him when they're on straight ground?
-It was an ABC argument.
-When somone flees a fight, they still lose...its just they were lucky enough to escape with their life.
-The enviroment is largely a useless factor in any given fight, being that BOTH combatants are fully capable of using it to their advantage. Yoda was beaten...the movie hints at it, the book states it in clear writing. Give it up.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Im not saying that Yoda wouldnt win on flat ground. What im saying is that because Sids won (Yes won!) the fight in ROTS it is only logical that he coud win on flat ground as well. For the record I agree that Sids was probably only winning from the high ground but he was smart enough to get there in the first place. There is no reason to say he wouldnt outsmart Yoda again on flat ground.
I'm not going to insult you but I will say your concept of logic or your logic itself is very off. First off, Sidious DIDn't win, see my previous post for reasoning. Second of all, if A=B when B has the advantage, then logic would tell you that most likely A>B if all things remain constant.