Originally posted by Lightsnake
In the novelization, Yoda does realize he is inferior to the dark lord
The novelization's documentary of the battle differs from the movie's own version. The movies > novels in canon.
In my opinion, Yoda is a SLIGHT superior to ROTS Sidious. A lot of the people around here think that Yoda would own him. I completely disagree - but I do believe that he is slightly superior in saber combat and in the Force.
Originally posted by Escape81
The novelization's documentary of the battle differs from the movie's own version. The movies > novels in canon.In my opinion, Yoda is a SLIGHT superior to ROTS Sidious. A lot of the people around here think that Yoda would own him. I completely disagree - but I do believe that he is slightly superior in saber combat and in the Force.
I agree with this.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I agree with this.
Well, it's just common sense. I wrote a huge walkthrough of the Yoda vs. Sidious fight, on one of Janus's private websites - it was mostly ignored.
The fact is:
- Sidious managed to land the first blow to Yoda during the battle in his office [by the way, for those of you who are big on 'expressions', why don't you go look back at Yoda's expression when the lightning comes for him. Looks kinda like Sidious's expression later on in the duel].
- Sidious managed to keep up with Yoda blow-for-blow, and managed to maintain the central dominant position [in the podium] for the majority of the battle there, and forced Yoda back into Mas Amedda's seat.
- Sidious managed to rip four pods from their moorings, and draw them back, in direct defiance with gravity - whereas Yoda had difficulty stopping one, which was tossed in slope-form.
- Sidious then managed to disarm Yoda when Yoda followed Sidious onto the final pod.
All in all - it's close between Yoda and Sidious.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
It doesn't change the fact that the information in the novelizations, especially ones that received a page by page edit from Lucas, carry weight in the EU when they don't contradict. They're still higher levels of canon than pretty much anything else and are usually held as G-canon
Since the novel and the movie deal with the same events, if the novel differs even slightly from the movie then it is invalid. Any thoughts, and ideas expressed in the novel that werent present in the movie are rendered invalid including Yodas admission of failure. Its sad I know...
Originally posted by BLAK FOX
After much consideration I'm going to have to say Dooku wins this. This type of fight would be very unorthodox and it is extremely hard to determine how it would work in reality or who the winner would be, but I believe that Dooku has many qualities that make it seem very probable that he would be the victor.Firstly his swordsmanship would help him a lot in this fight.
He has displayed incredible ease with dealing with multiple opponents (and not amateurs like Kolar or Tinn (well not general amateurs but amateurs compared to Anakin and Obi-Wan), but Anakin and Obi-Wan - two of the order's finest swordsmen) and I believe that this is due to his experience with a saber and his refinement of Makashi. The point being, his ease and competence with dealing with multiple opponents would be a great asset for him with this type of unorthodox fight with multiple opponents. The fact that Mace was so incompetent with working with his 3 jedi masters to apprehend Sidious also leads me to believe that he would not be competent with multiple combatants period, whether they are on his side or whether he is against them. Yoda and Sidious are both Ataru masters, and Ataru is generally known for being weak against multiple opponents (KOTOR2 backs this up).The fact that Dooku only needs to wield his saber with one hand while he duels makes it easier for him to pull off a force power while dueling and I think that this would also greatly benefit him in the fight. I mean it is already an unorthodox and strange fight for all of the combatants so why not make it harder for his opponents by combining his saber dueling with force powers. And we have all seen him display the mastery and control of the force that is needed to carry this out competently.
My final point is that every single one of these combatants are pretty close on terms of power levels (and Dooku is arguably the best saber dueler out of the bunch and the 3rd best force user), and that any fight involving these four force users would be incredible and last quite a bit of time whether it involves just 2 of them or tag teams or whatever. But when you make the fight more complicated and foreign to the combatants like this fight, the fight would probably last even longer and because of these points I would think that fatigue would play a huge factor on the result of this fight, and Dooku’s use of Makashi enables him to use up the least amount of energy as possible, whereas Sidious and Yoda’s Ataru means that they use up too much energy (especially Yoda considering the degree to which he uses the force to augment his physical attributes. And Mace is probably the most likely out of all four of them to slip up and die before fatigue becomes a deciding variable (his defence is his weak point and DEFENCE is probably THE most important quality in this type of fight). Because of these points, I say Dooku takes it.
Weren't you going to refute this tdtd?
Originally posted by Escape81
- Sidious managed to land the first blow to Yoda during the battle in his office [by the way, for those of you who are big on 'expressions', why don't you go look back at Yoda's expression when the lightning comes for him. Looks kinda like Sidious's expression later on in the duel].
First of all, Sidious' blow was quite a surprise. And when Yoda retorted with a powerful force push, I believe Sidious was the one who tried to flee.
- Sidious managed to keep up with Yoda blow-for-blow, and managed to maintain the central dominant position [in the podium] for the majority of the battle there, and forced Yoda back into Mas Amedda's seat.
Sidious had the high ground for a large percentage of that fight and he was still on par with Yoda. BTW, at one point, the final draft of the script mentions Sidious being doomed to defeat.
- Sidious managed to rip four pods from their moorings, and draw them back, in direct defiance with gravity - whereas Yoda had difficulty stopping one, which was tossed in slope-form.
Sidious had gravity on his side. He was throwing them DOWN. And the ONE pod that Yoda had thrown back had Sidious jumping, barely escaping the Pods destructive path. Notice how Sidious didn't stop Yoda's pod.
- Sidious then managed to disarm Yoda when Yoda followed Sidious onto the final pod.
"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.
The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed. "
It looks like Yoda managed to disarm Sidious and nearly defeat him.
Originally posted by Antediluvian
First of all, Sidious' blow was quite a surprise. And when Yoda retorted with a powerful force push, I believe Sidious was the one who tried to flee.Sidious had the high ground for a large percentage of that fight and he was still on par with Yoda. BTW, at one point, the final draft of the script mentions Sidious being doomed to defeat.
Sidious had gravity on his side. He was throwing them DOWN. And the ONE pod that Yoda had thrown back had Sidious jumping, barely escaping the Pods destructive path. Notice how Sidious didn't stop Yoda's pod.
"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.
The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed. "
It looks like Yoda managed to disarm Sidious and nearly defeat him.
Good post, very accurate.
Originally posted by Antediluvian
First of all, Sidious' blow was quite a surprise. And when Yoda retorted with a powerful force push, I believe Sidious was the one who tried to flee.
I'm sorry, but I don't see where the surprise came from. Sidious did not raise his hands quickly. I just watched the scene. He slowly raised his hands from his lap, while telling Yoda: "Now you will experience the full power of the Dark Side. "
Sidious blasted his lightning - and as it encroached on Yoda, the Jedi had an expression similar to the one Sidious had later on in the duel, on top of the pod.
"Oh crap".
Sidious had the high ground for a large percentage of that fight and he was still on par with Yoda. BTW, at one point, the final draft of the script mentions Sidious being doomed to defeat.
Sidious had the high ground for most of the fight, yes. But I am talking about when they fight on the Chancellor's podium, Palpatine starts off in the Chancellor's seat, and Yoda starts off in Mas Amedda's - which is below Palpatine. As the camera draws back, and the podium descends, it shows Yoda forcing Palpatine to Sly Moore's chair, and Yoda taking the Chancellor's [gaining the high ground] - but then it shows Sidious forcing Yoda back into Mas Amedda's chair once again.
My point is that Yoda was not utterly dominating the lightsaber duel, and was forced back by Palpatine and exchanged the offensive and defensive roles at various times.
Sidious had gravity on his side. He was throwing them DOWN. And the ONE pod that Yoda had thrown back had Sidious jumping, barely escaping the Pods destructive path. Notice how Sidious didn't stop Yoda's pod.
Now, you're completely missing the point. Sidious ripped four pods out of their moorings, Sorgo, and then drew all four back into the air, behind him - in direct defiance with gravity.
Then he dropped the pods.
"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.
"
Point being? I have already said that Palpatine was disarmed by Yoda. My quote was that, once the pod chucking contest was over, and Sidious fled to the lower pod - Yoda followed and ignited his lightsaber. Sidious then blasted it out of his hands - disarming him.
Secondly, the quote is: "it looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed". It didn't say that he was doomed.
It looks like Yoda managed to disarm Sidious and nearly defeat him.
Again, point being? I've already established that Yoda > Sidious in all categories. But my point is, it is only by a few hairs and not leagues.