Cloud vs Squall

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Squall defeated Seifer alone without problem, Seifer could be near, but he's not as strong as Squall. I have reached that conclusion because there is no other swordsman above Squall in the FFVIII universe as there is not other above Sephiroth in FFVII.

I don't remember Squall beating Seifer alone without problem. There was the one instance on the float, but after that Squall needed his team to fight Seifer. As for Squall being the greatest swordsman, you cannot make that claim simply because Squall defeated everyone he faced. He didn't face everyone in the FFVIII world. Sephiroth is basically stated to be the all time greatest soldier.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I just can look Squall at Dissidia since he doesn't have any spin-off.

Dissidia is not an accurate representation of Squalls abilities. Look at what he can do in FFVIII, not Dissidia. They had to make everyone the same strength in Dissidia because it was a fighting game.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Sephiroth is stronger than Cloud despite that he was defeated, Sephiroth never used his full power. Cloud and Sephiroth had an "spiritual" fight at the of FFVII, that wasn't a real fight, Cloud's will surpassed Sephirtoh's.

There is no evidence to support that. All you know is Cloud went back into the life stream and battled Sephiroth one on one. There is nothing that suggests this was simply a battle of "wills" or that Sephiroth was in a weakened state.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
GrieverSquall is right about Sefier. They might be in the same league, but Squall has multiple victories against him, including 1 solo, while Seifer has none. Best Seifer could do was cheapshot Squall in a training session and even that ended in a stalemate.

Squall has multiple victories against him with his team backing him up. I'd say if it takes Squall and his team to take Seifer down, Seifer is the stronger of the two in that instance. There was the one battle on the float, but that was earlier in the game, and that only happened once. I'd say the battles that came later hold more weight than the earlier ones.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
He is also right about GFs granting their users superhuman abilities. The whole junction thing was gameplay, but it was part of the story.

Hmmm. Well, alright, I'll give it to you.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't remember Squall beating Seifer alone without problem. There was the one instance on the float, but after that Squall needed his team to fight Seifer. As for Squall being the greatest swordsman, you cannot make that claim simply because Squall defeated everyone he faced. He didn't face everyone in the FFVIII world. Sephiroth is basically stated to be the all time greatest soldier.

He didn't need his team to fight Seifer, they were just there, I don't think he ever needed his team to fight Galbadian soldiers, but they were just there. Squall faced the best the FFVIII world had to offer apparently otherwise then he wouldn't be one fighting Ultimecia or he would've been fighting someone worse than her.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Dissidia is not an accurate representation of Squalls abilities. Look at what he can do in FFVIII, not Dissidia. They had to make everyone the same strength in Dissidia because it was a fighting game.

I don't have much to say about the game seeing as I never played it, etc... etc... but according to someone here its canon to the series so it must be accurate 😕

Originally posted by TacDavey
There is no evidence to support that. All you know is Cloud went back into the life stream and battled Sephiroth one on one. There is nothing that suggests this was simply a battle of "wills" or that Sephiroth was in a weakened state.

Well Sephiroth never got a chance to finish regenerating his body so that wouldn't explain him having his body in a physical fight & aside from that, stated in the Ultimania as a battle in the spiritual realm.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Squall has multiple victories against him with his team backing him up. I'd say if it takes Squall and his team to take Seifer down, Seifer is the stronger of the two in that instance. There was the one battle on the float, but that was earlier in the game, and that only happened once. I'd say the battles that came later hold more weight than the earlier ones.

It takes Cloud's team to beat up homeless bums in midgar.

I don't have much to say about the game seeing as I never played it, etc... etc... but according to someone here its canon to the series so it must be accurate

I meant to put somewhat accurate ermm

Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't remember Squall beating Seifer alone without problem. There was the one instance on the float, but after that Squall needed his team to fight Seifer. As for Squall being the greatest swordsman, you cannot make that claim simply because Squall defeated everyone he faced. He didn't face everyone in the FFVIII world. Sephiroth is basically stated to be the all time greatest soldier

He easily defeated Seifer before facing Edea, what do you mean by 'I don't remember'? Haven't you played the game? How comes he 'NEEDED'? Squall doesn't need anyone to beat Seifer as he showed to be above his abilities. Gameplay battles, do you know exactly what happened? Seifer is constantly talking at Squall in the two last battles while figthing, I could bring the exactly quotes if you wish, he has no reference to other party members and no dialogues, I don't know if you noticed it. The party could have left Squall face Seifer alone, you don't know how they fought either, we don't know, nobody knows, before making that claim be sure to have something to back it. Everyone knows Squall owns Seifer simply by the fact that he went through worst shit than him. You want to put Squall below Seifer to make Cloud look better, that's not going to work, I'm afraid.

Since there no other swordsman above Squall it is logic to think that Squall is the best, if they include another character and put him on pair with Squall I would change my mind though. You cannot create something that doesn't have form and that doesn't exist by saying 'He hasn't faced everyone in the FFVIII world'and waiting for that to be proof enough to demonstrate that Squall isn't the best. There are no others, not stated by the game, nothing, sorry.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Dissidia is not an accurate representation of Squalls abilities. Look at what he can do in FFVIII, not Dissidia. They had to make everyone the same strength in Dissidia because it was a fighting game.

Indeed, you are half-right.
Dissidia is canon though. Very funny, the slow and old FFVIII Intro-Squall against the fast Cloud from Advent Children with new technology. I'll look at Squall and how he is NOW, that's what you wanted, RIGHT? In the story line of Dissidia he defeated Ultimecia by himself, don't try to deny this because IS canon.

Originally posted by TacDavey
There is no evidence to support that. All you know is Cloud went back into the life stream and battled Sephiroth one on one. There is nothing that suggests this was simply a battle of "wills" or that Sephiroth was in a weakened state.

Sorry Tac, it is stated in the Ultimania Omega. A good educated fan from Final Fantasy VII MUST know this. I never said Sephiroth was in a weakened state. The battle is spiritual, even Wiki agrees.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
He didn't need his team to fight Seifer, they were just there, I don't think he ever needed his team to fight Galbadian soldiers, but they were just there.

What is your evidence to support this? The thing is, Squall had his team fight Seifer with him. What evidence do you have that he didn't need them?

Originally posted by SpadeKing
I don't have much to say about the game seeing as I never played it, etc... etc... but according to someone here its canon to the series so it must be accurate 😕

I'm still not 100% sure this is canon, but even if it is, that doesn't mean it's an accurate portrayal of the characters fighting abilities. Look at AC. That's cannon, and the director even said they weren't worried about sticking to what was realistic from the past game.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Well Sephiroth never got a chance to finish regenerating his body so that wouldn't explain him having his body in a physical fight & aside from that, stated in the Ultimania as a battle in the spiritual realm.

Okay, it IS a battle in the life stream, that's true. But I don't see how that somehow makes Sephiroth weaker than he should be. You are reading things into that that simply have no basis in fact.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Squall doesn't need anyone to beat Seifer as he showed to be above his abilities.

Did he? When? When he defeated Seifer in the beginning of the game on the float? But he needed his team for the battles afterward.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Gameplay battles, do you know exactly what happened? Seifer is constantly talking at Squall in the two last battles while figthing, I could bring the exactly quotes if you wish, he has no reference to other party members and no dialogues, I don't know if you noticed it. The party could have left Squall face Seifer alone,

So are you arguing that because the other party members didn't talk, they simply weren't there? I really don't think I need to be the one to tell you that that simply doesn't not follow, at all.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Everyone knows Squall owns Seifer simply by the fact that he went through worst shit than him.

That's another fallacious argument. Going through worse crap does not mean you are stronger than someone. What crap do you mean?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You want to put Squall below Seifer to make Cloud look better, that's not going to work, I'm afraid.

Actually, that's not what I was doing at all. I was responding to the claim that Squall is the greatest swordsman in the FFVIII world. Seifer is at least on his level, if not better.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Since there no other swordsman above Squall it is logic to think that Squall is the best, if they include another character and put him on pair with Squall I would change my mind though.

Okay, you are basically saying that Squall is the best in the entire world unless he meets someone who is better. I can't begin to describe how flawed that reasoning is. A child could sit back and make that claim, and never fight anyone stronger so, according to your logic, he IS the strongest in the world. But we all know the child really isn't. Now, if Squall fights every swordsman in the world and defeats them, he can make that claim. OR if at some point in the game it is said, or he meets the strongest in the world and defeats him, THEN AND ONLY THEN can he make that claim.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
There are no others, not stated by the game, nothing, sorry.

So anything not specifically stated in the game just doesn't exist, huh? There's a simple retort to that. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. QED.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Very funny, the slow and old FFVIII Intro-Squall against the fast Cloud from Advent Children with new technology.

I already said AC is not an accurate representation of the character abilities.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
In the story line of Dissidia he defeated Ultimecia by himself, don't try to deny this because IS canon.

Yes, we've been over Dissidia. It's a fighting game, remember. Everyone has to be equal to everyone else.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Sorry Tac, it is stated in the Ultimania Omega. A good educated fan from Final Fantasy VII MUST know this. I never said Sephiroth was in a weakened state. The battle is spiritual, even Wiki agrees.

Indeed. So if Sephiroth wasn't in a weakened state, then it doesn't matter HOW they fought, does it? I see no reason to believe that Sephiroth was any weaker than he should normally be just because they fought in the life stream. I would also think the, what, three other instances when Cloud defeated Sephiroth might also suggest something.

I might also take this time to point out another bit of evidence.

Remember the Icicle and sword example I gave before? To everyone who didn't see it I'll tell it again.

Cloud took a sword through the chest in the reactor, pulled himself up the blade and still had enough strength to throw Sephiroth off the cliff. Squall took an Icicle to the side, and passed out almost instantly.

Now, these two examples show a very similar situation and how each character handled it. Cloud obviously handled it better, and this was BEFORE he was genetically enhanced.

Now, with the new addition of this "Squall is technically a super human" argument, it proves my point even MORE. Cloud handled that better BEFORE he was super human, than Squall did when he WAS super human.

All the evidence and reasoning points to Cloud.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What is your evidence to support this? The thing is, Squall had his team fight Seifer with him. What evidence do you have that he didn't need them?

Well he was able to defeat him one on one before and probably a few more times while sparring.
What more evidence could possibly be needed for that? He already won one on one and its basically game mechanic like, I can go into the fight with all my party members dead or alone. Nothing on the game says I have to bring these people or have them alive when he fights Seifer.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm still not 100% sure this is canon, but even if it is, that doesn't mean it's an accurate portrayal of the characters fighting abilities. Look at AC. That's cannon, and the director even said they weren't worried about sticking to what was realistic from the past game.

Thats why the directors made an AC complete version to make it agree with the other games. I don't know about Dissidia I never even played it just mainly hear about it on here.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, it IS a battle in the life stream, that's true. But I don't see how that somehow makes Sephiroth weaker than he should be. You are reading things into that that simply have no basis in fact.

Nothing says it made him weaker, I have no clue where you got that, I simply said his body wasn't completely regenerated so there was no way it would have been a physical fight.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Well he was able to defeat him one on one before and probably a few more times while sparring.

There is no evidence of that, and the one time before you are referring to was early on in the game. They fought multiple times after that and Squall had his team with him each of those.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
What more evidence could possibly be needed for that? He already won one on one and its basically game mechanic like, I can go into the fight with all my party members dead or alone. Nothing on the game says I have to bring these people or have them alive when he fights Seifer.

Actually, that last example you gave is just game mechanic. As far as the story is concerned, all his team was there and they were all alive.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Thats why the directors made an AC complete version to make it agree with the other games. I don't know about Dissidia I never even played it just mainly hear about it on here.

AC complete? How do they make it agree with other games?

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Nothing says it made him weaker, I have no clue where you got that, I simply said his body wasn't completely regenerated so there was no way it would have been a physical fight.

A claim was made be GrieverSquall that Sephiroth was in a weakened state when they fought in the life stream, or that it was just a mental battle and so Cloud never really beat him. I was combating that argument.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Did he? When? When he defeated Seifer in the beginning of the game on the float? But he needed his team for the battles afterward.So are you arguing that because the other party members didn't talk, they simply weren't there? I really don't think I need to be the one to tell you that that simply doesn't not follow, at all.

Don't ask for evidence.YOU claimed he that he 'needed' his team to beat Seifer, where is YOUR evidence supporting this? What? Because the party members were there? Do you think that's enough? Squall showed to be above Seifer's abilities, if your argument stands just because you fight Seifer later in the game with your party members meaning that he could be some way 'stronger', you have to provide evidence supporting that considering that Squall went through worst shit than him so I could easily claim that Squall grew even stronger, without mentioning that HE'S stronger and this discussion is useless for me.

What? Have you fought Seifer? Did you knew he is constantly talking to Squall in the middle of the battles? What reference does he have at other party members? Second battle: 'Ready to die, Squall?', 'Kneel Before me!'. Third battle: 'Show me what you got, Squall!', 'Let me add another scar for ya!'. (After the battle) Squall stands in front of Seifer, always. 'It's not over yet, Squall!!!'. Get over it, Squall has beaten Seifer in all of his battles, Squall is far stronger than him. To claim you are right about your stance at least provide more evidence than just "because you fought him in gameplay battles with your whole party".

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, you are basically saying that Squall is the best in the entire world unless he meets someone who is better. I can't begin to describe how flawed that reasoning is. A child could sit back and make that claim, and never fight anyone stronger so, according to your logic, he IS the strongest in the world. But we all know the child really isn't. Now, if Squall fights every swordsman in the world and defeats them, he can make that claim. OR if at some point in the game it is said, or he meets the strongest in the world and defeats him, THEN AND ONLY THEN can he make that claim.

He is the strongest.
I don't understand how you pretend to invent someone stronger when as far as the story goes there's no one above Squall. It isn't enough to say that he commands a military academy of fighters and the most powerful being in the Final Fantasy VIII universe was fearing him?

Originally posted by TacDavey
I already said AC is not an accurate representation of the character abilities.

And why Final Fantasy VIII intro would be an accurate representations of Squall abilities? When it is clearly different technology? Does that make sense to you?

Originally posted by TacDavey
So anything not specifically stated in the game just doesn't exist, huh? There's a simple retort to that. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. QED.

Specifically? It is not stated at all. Epic quotes won't help you this time, sorry. Just accept the facts and let's proceed.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes, we've been over Dissidia. It's a fighting game, remember. Everyone has to be equal to everyone else.

This time Squall is far far stronger, I'm afraid. You won't kill him just throwing him an Icicle at his body, that's if you got the chance to hit him. Squall defeated Ultimecia by himself, you should play as Squall in Dissidia and watch carefully at how his story goes instead of making random claims. He has grow mentally also.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Cloud took a sword through the chest in the reactor, pulled himself up the blade and still had enough strength to throw Sephiroth off the cliff. Squall took an Icicle to the side, and passed out almost instantly. Now, these two examples show a very similar situation and how each character handled it. Cloud obviously handled it better, and this was BEFORE he was genetically enhanced.
Now, with the new addition of this "Squall is technically a super human" argument, it proves my point even MORE. Cloud handled that better BEFORE he was super human, than Squall did when he WAS super human. All the evidence and reasoning points to Cloud

What about if we put Cloud stabbed through his shoulder in Advent Children? He moved his body? Did he threw Sephiroth again with his already 'super-powers'? I think the answer is no. What evidence do you have that Squall even stabbed and then defeated was using GFs? I clearly said that GFs provides super-human powers, but no one has said when they are using them since that is impossible to know. What evidence do you have that he automatically passed out? What if Squall hadn't his sword to defend himself? What if he was already in a weakened state? As far as we know Cloud got his enhancements through his cells, so he was always using them, the same doesn't applies to Squall if we talk about GFs. Squall wasn't fighting a normal human, you don't know how was the fight, how they fought, etc. No one cares about the past as you said, because if we search through more, Cloud at the age of 16 as an infantry man had basically zero experience with swords and battle, on the other hand Squall at the same age was the leader of the most important military academy of fighters in the world leading them to victory, he has survived Time Compression, he went through space without experience to save Rinoa, he managed to handle the Ragnarok by himself with a few intructions, he passed through many generations defeating all the Sorceresses, defeated his most powerful thought, the Time itself and an universe destroyer with his companions. Cloud loses points badly here, Cloud wasn't even pair with Sephiroth in AC, it is stated that Sephiroth wasn't using his full powers and he wasn't even tired, so the only option they left here is that he defeated him just because of the Omnislash, sorry, Sephiroth is more experienced than Cloud. He isn't stronger than Sephiroth, so keep dreaming. I don't recommend you to keep arguing about their pasts by the way. People would figure out who's stronger at how they are NOW. Squall is far stronger at how is now and has accomplished more than Cloud in all of his games. Hell who cares about Seifer...

Originally posted by TacDavey
A claim was made be GrieverSquall that Sephiroth was in a weakened state when they fought in the life stream, or that it was just a mental battle and so Cloud never really beat him. I was combating that argument.

No offense, you are lying, I never said that.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Don't ask for evidence.[b]YOU claimed he that he 'needed' his team to beat Seifer, where is YOUR evidence supporting this? What? Because the party members were there? Do you think that's enough? [/B]

Yes I think that's enough. It's far more likely that if they were there, they were helping. Unless the game says otherwise. What is the logic behind saying his team was there but just sat back and watched? That makes NO SENSE at all. If you want to claim it, you will need evidence, not me. MY stance is the logical one. If they didn't weren't suppose to help Squall, they would have taken the team away and had Squall fight by himself. You are make ridiculous claims with no evidence to back them up, and making the claim that they stand because I haven't provided evidence for my stance. That's like saying a lemon isn't yellow because I haven't provided evidence that it is. If you want to claim a lemon ISN'T yellow, YOU must defend it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
considering that Squall went through worst shit than him

What are you talking about? You are making no sense. What shit are you referring to?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What? Have you fought Seifer? Did you knew he is constantly talking to Squall in the middle of the battles? What reference does he have at other party members? Second battle: 'Ready to die, Squall?', 'Kneel Before me!'. Third battle: 'Show me what you got, Squall!', 'Let me add another scar for ya!'. (After the battle) Squall stands in front of Seifer, always. 'It's not over yet, Squall!!!'. Get over it, Squall has beaten Seifer in all of his battles, Squall is far stronger than him. To claim you are right about your stance at least provide more evidence than just "because you fought him in gameplay battles with your whole party".

GrieverSquall, of all your arguments, this must be one of the weakest.

You're argument is that since Seifer never mentioned the others, they didn't fight? What should he have said, then? "Ready to die, Squall... and crew?" "It's not over yet, Squall, and you other guys too!"

Just because Seifer was talking to Squall does not EVEN REMOTELY mean that the others aren't there. All it means, is that Seifer was talking to Squall. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He is the strongest.
I don't understand how you pretend to invent someone stronger when as far as the story goes there's no one above Squall.

Okay, it has been some time since I have played FF8, but I don't remember the game ever saying that Squall was the best swordsman in the FF8 world. Find me that line, and your point will be valid.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
And why Final Fantasy VIII intro would be an accurate representations of Squall abilities? When it is clearly different technology? Does that make sense to you?

You are really hung up on that intro, aren't you? I'm not basing my whole stance off of that one sliver of cutscene, you know.

And yes, if they had wanted Squall to fly around the screen in that scene, they could have made him do it. Poorer graphics don't change what you can have a person do, just how good they look doing it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Specifically? It is not stated at all. Epic quotes won't help you this time, sorry. Just accept the facts and let's proceed.

We're all waiting on you. I have all the facts, all you have is wild speculations that you draw for lack of evidence to the contrary. It's like saying the world was made by a giant cheese ape simply because there is no evidence against it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What about if we put Cloud stabbed through his shoulder in Advent Children? He moved his body? Did he threw Sephiroth again with his already 'super-powers'? I think the answer is no.

I'll tell you what he didn't do. Pass out like Squall.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What evidence do you have that Squall even stabbed and then defeated was using GFs?

Really? You wanted to involve GFs, not me. You can't cherry pick your stances, GrieverSquall. It's like my cheese ape example above. You are claiming nonsensical things based off of there being no evidence against it. Why does it make sense that Squall just switched off his GFs? It doesn't. It makes no sense.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I clearly said that GFs provides super-human powers, but no one has said when they are using them since that is impossible to know.

Read my point above.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What evidence do you have that he automatically passed out? What if Squall hadn't his sword to defend himself? What if he was already in a weakened state?

What if Edea tipped her icicle with knock out juice? What if someone slipped a ruffy into his drink before he came? What if Squall was allergic to some stuff on the float? What if, what if, what if, what if.

There are a lot of what ifs, but without any evidence to support them they are meaningless.

I'll say it again... Cheese ape.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
As far as we know Cloud got his enhancements through his cells, so he was always using them, the same doesn't applies to Squall if we talk about GFs.

Um, no, you have it backwards. We DO know Cloud didn't have his enhancements because he didn't go through the procedure until AFTER the reactor scene.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No one cares about the past as you said, because if we search through more, Cloud at the age of 16 as an infantry man had basically zero experience with swords and battle, on the other hand Squall at the same age was the leader of the most important military academy of fighters in the world leading them to victory, he has survived Time Compression, he went through space without experience to save Rinoa, he managed to handle the Ragnarok by himself with a few intructions,

All of this being irrelevant, of course. Why do I care that Squall learned to fly a ship, or went through space? It says nothing about his fighting ability. All it tells us is he has a knack for flying space ships.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
he passed through many generations defeating all the Sorceresses, defeated his most powerful thought, the Time itself and an universe destroyer with his companions.

I want to draw attention to the "with his companions" part.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He isn't stronger than Sephiroth,

Yet he beat him... multiple times. That's odd.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I don't recommend you to keep arguing about their pasts by the way. People would figure out who's stronger at how they are NOW. Squall is far stronger at how is now and has accomplished more than Cloud in all of his games. Hell who cares about Seifer...

Have you lost your mind? You just completely switched up our stances here! I'm the one who keeps telling you to stop bringing up the past! What, in the world, are you talking about?

Who was it that brought up the fact that Squall was trained and Cloud used to be an infantry? That was YOU!

That was you in this very post I'm replying to in fact!

"because if we search through more, Cloud at the age of 16 as an infantry man had basically zero experience with swords and battle"

That was taken from just a few quotes above this one.

"Squall has trained all of his life in an military academy, mastered the most difficult blade and we can say he's the best swordsman in the world, however, Cloud was just an infantry man with no experience with swords."

That was taken from a few posts before.

I'M the one who's been saying that their pasts aren't important and that we have to look at them now.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No offense, you are lying, I never said that.

Oh good, then you admit Cloud beat Sephiroth.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes I think that's enough. It's far more likely that if they were there, they were helping. Unless the game says otherwise. What is the logic behind saying his team was there but just sat back and watched? That makes NO SENSE at all. If you want to claim it, you will need evidence, not me. MY stance is the logical one. If they didn't weren't suppose to help Squall, they would have taken the team away and had Squall fight by himself. You are make ridiculous claims with no evidence to back them up, and making the claim that they stand because I haven't provided evidence for my stance. That's like saying a lemon isn't yellow because I haven't provided evidence that it is. If you want to claim a lemon ISN'T yellow, YOU must defend it.

No, no. YOU claimed that Squall ['needed'] them, why Squall would need them when he already showed to be above Seifer's abilities? Answer to that. The team could have left Squall to face Seifer alone, why Squall would NEED them? THAT doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What are you talking about? You are making no sense. What shit are you referring to?

My apologies for say bad words. Yes I do make sense. Squall has achieved more than Seifer, he has faced worst situations, he defeated worst enemies than him and he defeated him. He went through more, I don't know what are you asking this, it seems you haven't played the game at all.

Now, tell me why Seifer would be 'stronger' in those two battles? Why Squall would 'NEED' his team to beat him?

Originally posted by TacDavey
Just because Seifer was talking to Squall does not EVEN REMOTELY mean that the others aren't there. All it means, is that Seifer was talking to Squall. Nothing more, nothing less.

Did I said they weren't there? READ well what I wrote. Read above and answer to my questions, provide evidence of what YOU have claimed, you claimed Squall 'needed' them, that's pathetic.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, it has been some time since I have played FF8, but I don't remember the game ever saying that Squall was the best swordsman in the FF8 world. Find me that line, and your point will be valid.

So you are the one who decides if people arguments are valid or not? What are you? The word's owner...? I've noticed that you cut my quotes and reply to whatever you want. Squall owns Seifer. The most powerful being feared him. He commands the most important academy of fighters in the world. FACTS.

Originally posted by TacDavey
And yes, if they had wanted Squall to fly around the screen in that scene, they could have made him do it. Poorer graphics don't change what you can have a person do, just how good they look doing it.

You seem to have issues with "flying".
New technology is new technology, why can't you accept one of the most simplest things? You are simply wrong, they couldn't have done that fight like we see in the new games, they did the best they could in that time. Even those games that got remakes have been granted with those feats. ALL the FF universe has got those feats, sorry.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I have all the facts

No, you don't.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I'll tell you what he didn't do. Pass out like Squall.

Though Zero evidence of that.
That argument shows nothing if we put Squall and Cloud to fight right NOW. Squall wouldn't fall anymore if he's stabbed with an Icicle through his lung, Cloud can't make Icicles by the way, this wouldn't be a fight to the death so it is not necessary to bring death experiences as examples in a fight. Squall wouldn't allow Cloud to stab him, wake up. If Cloud survived his experience, the same I can say about Squall. I doesn't matter how they handled them, because both situations are absolutely different. So no need for you to repeat yourself over and over as always you does, Tac. What I really care, is their experience in battle and their achievements, I have already compared both at the same age, I won't repeat myself, people would figure out if the Icicle argument is better than the experience through ages argument to determine who would win in a fight NOW. The Sephiroth argument means nothing, Sephiroth owns Cloud by a long shot, it is stated by the creators, don't go against FACTS, Squall defeated Ultimecia by himself, Seifer isn't even near to Squall capabilities, so don't stuck in that, face the reality. Sephiroth and Cloud had a fight at the end of FFVII but it was an spiritual fight. My final conclusion is a draw but Squall would put more victories on his side, end of story.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes I think that's enough. It's far more likely that if they were there, they were helping. Unless the game says otherwise. What is the logic behind saying his team was there but just sat back and watched? That makes NO SENSE at all. If you want to claim it, you will need evidence, not me. MY stance is the logical one. If they didn't weren't suppose to help Squall, they would have taken the team away and had Squall fight by himself. You are make ridiculous claims with no evidence to back them up, and making the claim that they stand because I haven't provided evidence for my stance. That's like saying a lemon isn't yellow because I haven't provided evidence that it is. If you want to claim a lemon ISN'T yellow, YOU must defend it.

You don't get it do you? It is all gameplay, Squall has the option to go do his missions alone, the game has already said otherwise, cause I damn sure never saw the people in a cinematic scene there while I was fighting him, that would obviously not be a gameplay mechanic. I already stated my evidence what is yours? That you just happened to go to that fight with Selphie and Quistis there with you? Thats very very logical of you. So going by your logic Cloud needed help to fight homeless people? he must really suck.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What are you talking about? You are making no sense. What shit are you referring to?

Well for one, Squall definately fought a tougher opponent. Who wasn't out to INJURE a planet but DESTROY ALL EXISTENCE.... seems like a whole lot more shit too me.

Originally posted by TacDavey
GrieverSquall, of all your arguments, this must be one of the weakest.

You're argument is that since Seifer never mentioned the others, they didn't fight? What should he have said, then? "Ready to die, Squall... and crew?" "It's not over yet, Squall, and you other guys too!"

Just because Seifer was talking to Squall does not EVEN REMOTELY mean that the others aren't there. All it means, is that Seifer was talking to Squall. Nothing more, nothing less.

Boy, what you just said didn't help you at all, well since he never acknowledges anyone else other than Squall in the area, I would guess that would mean Squall took that mission on alone.

Originally posted by TacDavey
We're all waiting on you. I have all the facts, all you have is wild speculations that you draw for lack of evidence to the contrary. It's like saying the world was made by a giant cheese ape simply because there is no evidence against it.

What facts? More like fanboy opinions. You have shown no sort of evidence at all.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I'll tell you what he didn't do. Pass out like Squall.

I'll tell you what kind of pain he has never been in, being impaled in the lungs.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What if Edea tipped her icicle with knock out juice? What if someone slipped a ruffy into his drink before he came? What if Squall was allergic to some stuff on the float? What if, what if, what if, what if.

There are a lot of what ifs, but without any evidence to support them they are meaningless.

Yea she pulled a icicle out of midair and poured knock out juice on it haermm

Originally posted by TacDavey
We DO know Cloud didn't have his enhancements because he didn't go through the procedure until AFTER the reactor scene.

If only you could think more like this with true facts, this would be an argument and not border trolling.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yet he beat him... multiple times. That's odd.

Yet the creators state, that Sephiroth is the most powerful thing in FF7 universe and that despite Cloud using everything he has in him Sephiroth has never taken him seriously nor dropped a sweat. That is facts. That came from the actualy creators.

Wow! I thought someone would just call a draw and get it over with. Seems like this debate goes back and forth with results in it going back to where it started. Squall's a better fighter...Cloud is genetically superior...both have experience beating the crap out of things that should be stronger than them. So wouldn't that be a tie or something.

P.S: Sephiroth just needs to admit one of the following:
A). He lost! Cloud's stronger
B). He's a masochist that like being beaten over and over again
C). The creators need to stop making spin-off villians that appear (are) stronger than him.
D). Highly unlikely but...he just sucks!(had to add that in to make it just)

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No, no. YOU claimed that Squall ['needed'] them, why Squall would need them when he already showed to be above Seifer's abilities? Answer to that. The team could have left Squall to face Seifer alone, why Squall would NEED them? THAT doesn't make sense.

Do you see what you are doing here? You are making the claim that the characters let Squall go it alone, based solely on the fact that there isn't evidence to the contrary. His team was with him all up until he got there, why did they just leave him then? Or maybe they sat back and watched? Does that make sense to you? Why would they do that?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Squall has achieved more than Seifer, he has faced worst situations, he defeated worst enemies than him and he defeated him. He went through more, I don't know what are you asking this, it seems you haven't played the game at all.

How do you even know what Seifer has faced? No, forget that, it doesn't matter. I don't care if Squall had to go up against the creator of the universe. If Seifer is stronger, than he's stronger and saying that Squall had a rough time is not evidence that he is stronger. The only way that WOULD be evidence is if we see Seifer not being able to perform such tasks, but of course we don't.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Now, tell me why Seifer would be 'stronger' in those two battles? Why Squall would 'NEED' his team to beat him?

Why did he need his team to beat any of the bosses? Because they're bosses. They're stronger than any one person in your team, usually. And if Squall could take Seifer down by himself, they would have him take Seifer down by himself.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Did I said they weren't there? READ well what I wrote. Read above and answer to my questions, provide evidence of what YOU have claimed, you claimed Squall 'needed' them, that's pathetic.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. The alternative is that you were claiming they WERE there, and that they just didn't help for absolutely no reason whatsoever. That makes even LESS sense. And again, if you are going to make nonsensical arguments, you will need evidence for them.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
So you are the one who decides if people arguments are valid or not? What are you? The word's owner...?

Um, no. Whether an argument is valid or not is not up to me. It either is or isn't. Yours isn't.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Squall owns Seifer.

Jury's still out on that one.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
The most powerful being feared him.

Because of some prophecy, right? Not because she saw how strong he was and decided she was in big trouble.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He commands the most important academy of fighters in the world. FACTS.

Cid was in charge of the garden and he was a short fat guy. Doesn't seem like you need to be a particularly good fighter to be in a position of power.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You are simply wrong, they couldn't have done that fight like we see in the new games, they did the best they could in that time.

What? Do you even know how 3D animation works? You have a 3D model, and you move it around as you see fit. That includes moving it up into the sky if you wanted to. There is no old animation software that forces your animated people to stay on the ground. If they wanted him leaping like Spiderman, they could have had him do it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Even those games that got remakes have been granted with those feats. ALL the FF universe has got those feats, sorry.

That's because they figured this style is what more people like. They like things to be more like DBZ.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Though Zero evidence of that.

Really? There is zero evidence that Cloud didn't pass out after he got stabbed? Well, I would have thought that the fact that he didn't pass out would have been evidence enough.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That argument shows nothing if we put Squall and Cloud to fight right NOW. Squall wouldn't fall anymore if he's stabbed with an Icicle through his lung,

Now, THAT is a pretty good example of something you have zero evidence for.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Cloud can't make Icicles by the way, this wouldn't be a fight to the death so it is not necessary to bring death experiences as examples in a fight.

Wow, really? If someone is near death in an example it gets disqualified? And that makes SENSE to you? Are you even paying attention to what you are typing? The evidence shows what it shows, it doesn't matter if this is a fight to the death or not, what are you talking about?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Squall wouldn't allow Cloud to stab him, wake up.

Well, I think we'd all be worried if Squall said "Here Cloud, stab me." Funny hing about fights, the fighters usually try to avoid getting stabbed, but the thing about fights is that they don't always succeed, you see.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I doesn't matter how they handled them, because both situations are absolutely different.

No, they really aren't. Cloud gets stabbed, Squall gets stabbed. Cloud doesn't pass out Squall does. Pretty similar really.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
So no need for you to repeat yourself over and over as always you does, Tac.

I know, annoying, right? I sure wish I didn't need to.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What I really care, is their experience in battle and their achievements, I have already compared both at the same age, I won't repeat myself, people would figure out if the Icicle argument is better than the experience through ages argument to determine who would win in a fight NOW.

Oh I think I can help you there. See, the icicle example happens in present day, and the battle past example happens, well, in the past. So, yes, we are all interested in what they can do NOW. The icicle point is a good example.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
The Sephiroth argument means nothing, Sephiroth owns Cloud by a long shot, it is stated by the creators,

That simply doesn't make sense. Why would Sephiroth allow his plans to be ruined? Why would he sit back and go, "well, I've been working at this for a while, and my plan is almost complete. I think when Cloud comes, I'm just going to loose, though. It would be more fun that way."

Where do the creators state this, and do they explain why Sephiroth suddenly doesn't care if his plan succeeds or fails?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Sephiroth and Cloud had a fight at the end of FFVII but it was an spiritual fight.

So what does that mean? Sephiroth was weaker because he was using a spirit form? You already said you weren't making the claim that Sephiroth was in a weakened state, so why does it matter if they were using their real bodies or not?

Originally posted by SpadeKing
You don't get it do you? It is all gameplay, Squall has the option to go do his missions alone,

No he doesn't, you always have to have 2 other people in your team. That's why when people do the "solo" fights they have to have two people killed off.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
the game has already said otherwise, cause I damn sure never saw the people in a cinematic scene there while I was fighting him,

So that means they weren't there? So if they want characters to be involved in a fight, they MUST have the opponent reference them? How does that make sense?

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Well for one, Squall definately fought a tougher opponent. Who wasn't out to INJURE a planet but DESTROY ALL EXISTENCE.... seems like a whole lot more shit too me.

So? Their goals were different, how is that relevant?

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Boy, what you just said didn't help you at all, well since he never acknowledges anyone else other than Squall in the area, I would guess that would mean Squall took that mission on alone.

Again, that is faulty reasoning. Ever think Seifer just didn't want to talk to the others? Why is that less rational than, "He didn't mention them, so they must not be there." How can you honestly say that is a logical stance, cause if you do, I'm going through every battle where the characters were not each spoken to, or referenced and we can claim they must not have been there. There's logic for you.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
What facts? More like fanboy opinions. You have shown no sort of evidence at all.

A lot of people confuse being logical with being a fanboy. Really, I like Squalls character better than Cloud. But the facts are against him. I've supplied nothing but evidence. Everything I have claimed I have backed up. Denying their existence won't make them go away. And calling me a fanboy to try to undermine the validity of my arguments isn't going to work either.

(Ahem) my last post got cut off, here's the rest:

Originally posted by SpadeKing
I'll tell you what kind of pain he has never been in, being impaled in the lungs.

Naw, he got stabbed in the chest. That's not even close to what Squall went through. That was sarcasm in case you didn't get it.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Yea she pulled a icicle out of midair and poured knock out juice on it haermm

That's what I would do.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
If only you could think more like this with true facts, this would be an argument and not border trolling.

Facts? Evidence? What are those? Oh, they must be all that stuff that has been filling up my posts recently.

I have backed up every claim I have made, or am I mistaken? Bring me a claim I didn't provide evidence for and I'll either take it off the table or provide the evidence for it.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Yet the creators state, that Sephiroth is the most powerful thing in FF7 universe and that despite Cloud using everything he has in him Sephiroth has never taken him seriously nor dropped a sweat. That is facts. That came from the actualy creators.

Well, if the creators say it then it's true. I want to see what they say about it, because Sephiroth letting himself get beat just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Especially when his plan rests on him not getting defeated. You know, the plan he's been working on the entire game/movie?

Originally posted by TacDavey
You are making the claim that the characters let Squall go it alone, based solely on the fact that there isn't evidence to the contrary. His team was with him all up until he got there, why did they just leave him then? Or maybe they sat back and watched? Does that make sense to you? Why would they do that?

Based in a few observations you mean. On the other hand, you have no evidence that Squall needed them to fight Seifer (which is what you claimed earlier by the way) Why they would leave Squall to fight Seifer alone...? Maybe because Squall is stronger than Seifer AND HE ALREADY SHOWED IT?

Originally posted by TacDavey
How do you even know what Seifer has faced? No, forget that, it doesn't matter. I don't care if Squall had to go up against the creator of the universe. If Seifer is stronger, than he's stronger and saying that Squall had a rough time is not evidence that he is stronger. The only way that WOULD be evidence is if we see Seifer not being able to perform such tasks, but of course we don't.

The facts here is that Seifer isn't stronger. Sorry if you can't face it.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Why did he need his team to beat any of the bosses? Because they're bosses. They're stronger than any one person in your team, usually.

Exactly, it's gameplay. If you could demonstrate that Seifer is 'stronger' in those battles outside gameplay that would be good for your argument.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The alternative is that you were claiming they WERE there, and that they just didn't help for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

And you are claiming that they were there and that Squall NEEDED them to fight Seifer, that makes EVEN LESS sense.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Um, no. Whether an argument is valid or not is not up to me. It either is or isn't. Yours isn't.

Opinion accepted. Everyone is free to say exactly the same about yours.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Because of some prophecy, right? Not because she saw how strong he was and decided she was in big trouble.

She can claim it now that she found how strong he is. Don't go against facts... The FFVIII Ultimania and the game itself stated this, not me.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Cid was in charge of the garden and he was a short fat guy. Doesn't seem like you need to be a particularly good fighter to be in a position of power.

Yeah, he WAS. You can be both though, a good fighter and a leader. (In Squall's case)

Originally posted by TacDavey
If they wanted him leaping like Spiderman, they could have had him do it. That's because they figured this style is what more people like. They like things to be more like DBZ..

Not in that time and with that technology.
That seem to be just your personal opinion rather than extracted from an official source.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Really? There is zero evidence that Cloud didn't pass out after he got stabbed? Well, I would have thought that the fact that he didn't pass out would have been evidence enough.

Zero evidence that Squall passed out, not Cloud. The stab argument shows nothing so I won't reply to it, that wouldn't determine who would win in a fight, you already know what I have replied earlier.

Originally posted by TacDavey
See, the icicle example happens in present day

Huh? So disc 1 in the game shows Squall's present day, I could say Squall's present day is in disc 4. Are you mad or something? Dissidia shows Squall's present.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That simply doesn't make sense. Why would Sephiroth allow his plans to be ruined? Why would he sit back and go, "well, I've been working at this for a while, and my plan is almost complete. I think when Cloud comes, I'm just going to loose, though. It would be more fun that way."
Where do the creators state this, and do they explain why Sephiroth suddenly doesn't care if his plan succeeds or fails?

🙁 Going against facts... Cloud wasn't even in pair with Sephiroth in AC, just GET OVER IT, stop disagreeing with FACTS. It is stated in the Ultimania Omega.

Squall is a more experienced warrior than Cloud, I have explained why, but you don't want to talk about their pasts and how they began, that's okay, I'll respect it.

Originally posted by TacDavey
So what does that mean? Sephiroth was weaker because he was using a spirit form?

No.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Wow! I thought someone would just call a draw and get it over with. Seems like this debate goes back and forth with results in it going back to where it started. Squall's a better fighter...Cloud is genetically superior...both have experience beating the crap out of things that should be stronger than them. So wouldn't that be a tie or something.

P.S: Sephiroth just needs to admit one of the following:
A). He lost! Cloud's stronger
B). He's a masochist that like being beaten over and over again
C). The creators need to stop making spin-off villians that appear (are) stronger than him.
D). Highly unlikely but...he just sucks!(had to add that in to make it just)

A). No argument there, on the lost part.
B). Masochist and a momma's boy that likes being beaten over and over agian.
C). None of them were ever stronger than Sephiroth.
D). At least he has a good theme song.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Facts? Evidence? What are those? Oh, they must be all that stuff that has been filling up my posts recently.

I have backed up every claim I have made, or am I mistaken? Bring me a claim I didn't provide evidence for and I'll either take it off the table or provide the evidence for it.

Ok, here is a start.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes I think that's enough. It's far more likely that if they were there, they were helping. Unless the game says otherwise. What is the logic behind saying his team was there but just sat back and watched? That makes NO SENSE at all. If you want to claim it, you will need evidence, not me. MY stance is the logical one. If they didn't weren't suppose to help Squall, they would have taken the team away and had Squall fight by himself. You are make ridiculous claims with no evidence to back them up, and making the claim that they stand because I haven't provided evidence for my stance. That's like saying a lemon isn't yellow because I haven't provided evidence that it is. If you want to claim a lemon ISN'T yellow, YOU must defend it.

You're argument is that since Seifer never mentioned the others, they didn't fight? What should he have said, then? "Ready to die, Squall... and crew?" "It's not over yet, Squall, and you other guys too!"

Just because Seifer was talking to Squall does not EVEN REMOTELY mean that the others aren't there. All it means, is that Seifer was talking to Squall. Nothing more, nothing less.

You are really hung up on that intro, aren't you? I'm not basing my whole stance off of that one sliver of cutscene, you know.

And yes, if they had wanted Squall to fly around the screen in that scene, they could have made him do it. Poorer graphics don't change what you can have a person do, just how good they look doing it.

We're all waiting on you. I have all the facts, all you have is wild speculations that you draw for lack of evidence to the contrary. It's like saying the world was made by a giant cheese ape simply because there is no evidence against it.

I'll tell you what he didn't do. Pass out like Squall.

Really? You wanted to involve GFs, not me. You can't cherry pick your stances, GrieverSquall. It's like my cheese ape example above. You are claiming nonsensical things based off of there being no evidence against it. Why does it make sense that Squall just switched off his GFs? It doesn't. It makes no sense.

What if Edea tipped her icicle with knock out juice? What if someone slipped a ruffy into his drink before he came? What if Squall was allergic to some stuff on the float? What if, what if, what if, what if.

There are a lot of what ifs, but without any evidence to support them they are meaningless.

I'll say it again... Cheese ape.

Have you lost your mind? You just completely switched up our stances here! I'm the one who keeps telling you to stop bringing up the past! What, in the world, are you talking about?

there is a small start.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, if the creators say it then it's true. I want to see what they say about it, because Sephiroth letting himself get beat just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Especially when his plan rests on him not getting defeated. You know, the plan he's been working on the entire game/movie?

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html

Thats a translation from the book and around the bottom of the page you can find qoutes from the creator on the games/movie.

Sephiroth never got over Cloud flipping him and his mommy's head over a rail and never recovered his pride from that, thus taking Cloud seriously in a fight would make it even worse on his pride.

http://thelifestream.net/

Thats another one if you rather go through one with pictures 😱
I never went through the whole site too lazy ermm

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Based in a few observations you mean. On the other hand, you have no evidence that Squall needed them to fight Seifer (which is what you claimed earlier by the way) Why they would leave Squall to fight Seifer alone...? Maybe because Squall is stronger than Seifer [b]AND HE ALREADY SHOWED IT? [/B]

He beat him ONCE very early on. Seifer gets stronger too, you know.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
And you are claiming that they were there and that Squall NEEDED them to fight Seifer, that makes EVEN LESS sense.

No it doesn't. Forget this, it's going no where. We've gotten to the "nun-uh, yeah-huh" level. Let's just go back to what this part was originally about. You made the claim that Squall was the strongest fighter in the FF8 world, but have no evidence to back that up, since it's never stated in the game, and Squall never fights all the swordsman in the world, so how can you say, with absolute certainty, that there are NO swordsman ANYWHERE in the FF8 world who are better than Squall?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Opinion accepted. Everyone is free to say exactly the same about yours.

Actually, no again. It's not an opinion at all, it's a fact. An argument is always either valid or invalid. Just as something can't be true for one person and not for another. An argument can't be valid in one case and invalid in another. It's either valid, or not. Yours is invalid. It's just a fact. An intro level logic course would teach you that.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yeah, he WAS. You can be both though, a good fighter and a leader. (In Squall's case)

Of course, I don't disagree with that. But you listed that example as reason to assume Squall is strong, but since we see that there is no need to be strong and that it's perfectly possible to be weak and still be in the same position, it says nothing about Squalls strength to say he leads Garden.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Not in that time and with that technology.

Yes in that time and yes with that technology. Are you saying they couldn't animate a bird flying? Of course they can, so they can animate things flying, yes? So they can animate Squall flying, yes? So if they wanted to, they could have him leap high into the air if they wanted to, yes?

I've worked with 3D animation, there is nothing that stops you from having someone leave the ground.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That seem to be just your personal opinion rather than extracted from an official source.

That's true, I'm simply speculating here. They must have thought people would like this style of fighting better than the original or they would have stuck with the original. Why else would they do it?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Zero evidence that Squall passed out, not Cloud. The stab argument shows nothing so I won't reply to it, that wouldn't determine who would win in a fight, you already know what I have replied earlier.

It shows something about the characters. Does this alone prove Cloud would win? No, it's just one of many things that support it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Huh? So disc 1 in the game shows Squall's present day, I could say Squall's present day is in disc 4. Are you mad or something? Dissidia shows Squall's present.

I'm speaking generally here. I mean Squall now a days as apposed to Squalls past.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
🙁 Going against facts... Cloud wasn't even in pair with Sephiroth in AC, just GET OVER IT, stop disagreeing with FACTS. It is stated in the Ultimania Omega.

I'm not going against facts. If the developers said Sephiroth is stronger and is just letting Cloud win, then that's that. I'm finding it hard to believe they said that, though, since it doesn't make any sense to the storyline of the game. Can you find me the part where they say that?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No.

Okay, I'm confused. Let me get this straight. Sephiroth was not weakened at all when he fought Cloud in the lifestream. He was just as strong as he should be, and Cloud defeated him.... but Cloud can't beat Sephiroth?

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Ok, here is a start. [/B]

I see nothing wrong with those arguments. Why don't you try to be a little more specific.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
http://faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html

Thats a translation from the book and around the bottom of the page you can find qoutes from the creator on the games/movie.

Sephiroth never got over Cloud flipping him and his mommy's head over a rail and never recovered his pride from that, thus taking Cloud seriously in a fight would make it even worse on his pride.

http://thelifestream.net/

Thats another one if you rather go through one with pictures 😱
I never went through the whole site too lazy ermm [/B]

I see, this is almost irrefutable evidence. Alright, I retract my point, Sephiroth is stronger than Cloud. Though this still doesn't make sense to me. Why does Cloud keep winning if he's weaker? I'll have to look into that more.

Cloud keeps winning because of Sephiroth's arrogance. He still refuses to accept that a SOLDIER reject was capable of hurting him, and he continues to treat Cloud as nothing more than an infantryman, not worth using his full efforts upon.

In Dissidia he loses to Cloud because it is necessary for the heroes to defeat Chaos for everything to return to normal, where Sephiroth could attain his goal of godhood and rule for himself, not as a pawn of Chaos.