Originally posted by Lightsnake
We see ten at the most important meeting the Sith council has ever known? Three of those Sith lords die on screen, at least another three die on planet, at least three are seen with Naga or being murdered by Massassi...and that leaves Naga. That just means KJA doesn't know what he's doing.
You still don't get the concept. Not every Sith Lord is a member of the ruling Council. The same way not every Jedi Master is member of the Jedi Council. So the amount of Sith Lords existing is unknown. The Council just contains the 10 overall strongest Sith Lords and the Dark Lord.
So? And people who had centuries to master the light would be damn powerful, and we've seen people who had 'centuries to master the dark side' get stomped into the ground.
Yes ? Where did you see one person that had centuries to master the Dark Side getting defeated in a one on one situation ?
Just accept one thing: Age and experience just plain DO NOT MATTER.
No. I don't accept your ideas when they contradict the sources as well as plain and simple logic. We have seen that experience does matter. That was the entire reason why Obi-Wan defeated Anakin. Anakin had a far greater potential but they stalemated in their force contest. Anakin was rated "level 9" by Mr. Gillard while Obi-Wan was rated "level 8". So Anakin was better with a lightsaber but he still didn't win. Why ? Because Obi-Wan had experience.
You can't simply wipe experience from the table when trying to examine combat situations because skill is gained through experience and training. You can't just be a prodigy or genious and beat everyone as you like just because of that - talents have to be developed. By your logic TPM Anakin should be able to pick up a lightsaber and destroy virtually anybody else because he has the greater potential or is the greater prodigy - or whatever.
And when Kun ever tossed people who meant a damn around like ragdolls, get back to him...or froze an entire world...and isn't it incredible how the only thing that let him destroy the self declared powerless in his present state Nadd and the Sith Wyrm was an amulet with the blast he never used again? Even more amusing at how a pack of padawans defeated TWO of the greatest, most terrible sithspawn?
Wow. Nice interpretation of the source material. Nadd was so weak that he was able to instantly heal Kun's broken bones using the force, floor Vodo on the other Side of the Galaxy and take Ommins life. And the Sith beast Kun faced was much bigger then the Leviathans which can be easily seen in the comics.
And those amulet (and much less the other one we see Kun using later) didn't mystically fade away. He didn't use them ? So what ? Does that mean he can't use them ? Was Yoda suddenly completely unable to ignite a lightsaber after ROTS because we never saw him doing so ?
That's fascinating, and according to the ROTS novelization, Dooku was fighting seriously against Anakin when he realized Dooku was the finest Djem So master he'd ever seen.
You still didn't get the point. The point is that Dooku taunted Anakin to use his anger which gave Anakin the upper hand over Dooku. This is stated by Lucas as well as by Nick Gillard (who says that the "Dark Side" led Anakin become a "nine" compared to Obi-Wan who was an "eight"😉. Lucas even says in the commentary that the issue is that the Sith apprentice has the ability to convert Jedi. What does that tell you ? That Dooku wanted to convert Anakin - not kill him. And that was all that Sidious told him: fight and convert Anakin.
Dooku tossed Obi-Wan and Anakin around as he liked before Obi-Wan was out of the fight - that's a fact. Anakin couldn't do the same with Kenobi - another fact. So what makes you think that Anakin could have beaten Dooku WITHOUT using his anger - a thing he did because Dooku basically told him to do so ? What makes you think he was able to overpower Dooku if Dooku gave him all he could, trying to kill Anakin ?
Only said in the article that he drew power from Leia because he knew if he lost, Leia and her child would fall into Palpatine's hands and Luke would never allow that to happen.
The article written by Tom Veitch ? If not...forget it and use the original sources. The choice is still up to you: If Luke "drew power from Leia" or Leia assisted him then he didn't defeat Sidious on his own. And if he did it on his own Sidious even by DE is not as great as you want him to be.
Do I trust Ragnos who declared that Kun earned the title by reviving the Sith? I think I do.
Oh...he did ? "Exar Kun...because of you the Sith will never die...You have righly earned the title Dark Lord of the Sith." Anything about "reviving the Sith" there ? No...I don't see something like that. He talks about both being chosen, both being part of the "grand design" and both will bring the "revenge" of the Sith. He threats them like a team and hands the title to the more powerful because Kun already studied Sadow's work at this point while Ulic didn't have any "real" experience with the dark side. Still each of them (even Ulic) had more dark side power then "all her Sith Magic" could give to Aleema. The same Aleema that killed people with a handmovement in the comics.
Ulic stripped from the force? Ummm, no, they temporarily subdued him, that was it, he wasn't blocked until Nomi blasted him. And blame KJA's poor writing considering everyone just flaps their mouths until Vodo declares he'll stop Kun, without, y'know, trying to subdue Kun with the help of three other powerful Jedi with the same technique used on Ulic.
Ulic still couldn't use the force and didn't have a weapon. And subdue Kun with said technique. The same technique a more experienced Jedi Master failed to use on Kun ? With the help of people Kun could throw around like he wanted ?
That just proves the rest of them were young and inexperienced and didn't know what to do, doesn't show Vodo as a powerhouse whatsoever.
Of course: People who spent their time with fighting Sith Magicians (Onderon), their followers, Krath, Dark Side warriors, war droids and Mandalorians for several month or even years must be totally inexperienced. And of course they wouldn't know what to do when confronted with Massassi (which they killed before) and two Dark Siders (when they have confronted Dark Side users before). Must be hard to figure out.
Or can it be that they are slightly impressed by Kun who had just frozen the entire Senate just in front of their eyes, used the chancellor as puppet and is obviously more powerful then Ulic Quel-Droma who had given them some problems when they confronted them the last time ?
And yes, Sylvar would NEVER be crying because her beloved father figure and Jedi Master was just SLICED IN HALF IN FRONT OF HER EYES and she just learned HER LOVER AND MATE TURNED TO THE DARK SIDE, no, Sylvar's obviously crying because she got pushed and not to the two subsequent intense grievous losses to her heart!
Excuse me...she was turned from a furious Jedi wanting to kill the murder of her master into a crying something by a single force push and the narrator states that Kun "didn't even care about her any longer". How much superiority does Kun have to display before you accept it.
Hm, simple logic: Guy rushes three people head on...three people die. Who's better? Oh, right. Faster, better, stronger. End of story.
As I said: No ideas about fighting but trying to argue with me. Accept the fact that he couldn't have beaten them that easily in an area with enough space to let them all use their respective combat forms or keep your mouth shut. Of course he's superior to all of them individually - but more powerful than all of them combined ? Funny...
How often did you watch the fight ? He cuts down Agen who isn't even facing him and then kills Saesee with the same movement. The only noticeable skill display is when he cuts down Kit - who didn't have enough space to defend himself properly.
No, it's never said Palp wanted to kill Mace with the lightning. Yeah, nothing like that in the commentary. Especially considering a FORCE PUSH would've killed Mace there...nothing like that in the commentary, ROTS novel and Visual dictionary state otherwise. Sidious didn't 'already have Anakin over', he was on the hook, so Sidious clinched the deal, by forcing Anakin's hand. I'm not arguing Lucas, because Lucas never said a damn thing like this, in fact, he said usage of dark side power made Sidious deformed. Novelization states Anakin was already intensely conflicted and he acted impulsively which sealed his fate. He couldn't have Sidious dead and Sidious knew it.
Wow...lying again to save your belove opinion, LieSnake ?
Here...directly comming from the commentary:
Lucas: "This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine uses his power and tries to destroy Mace and Mace deflects the rays with his lightsaber..."
Knoll: "These close-up shots where Palpatine gets the force lightning reflected back and the strain of all this exhaustion is transforming him into the Emperor..."
Did you get it now ? Mace overpowered Sidious saberwise then Sidious tries to destroy Mace and his own power being reflected back at him is transforming him into the Emperor. Period. And a "force push" would have been enough to kill Windu ? Ever read Shatterpoint ? First thing a Jedi learns is to counter telekinesis - in fact Mace could push himself in another direction once getting force pushed so Sidious couldn't have pushed him out of the window. Sidious was beaten fair and square by Mace. End of story.
The Visual Dictionaries? By David West Reynolds? And the Fightsaber article: Clearly stated, Kun is a user of Form II. I'll do better than a page number, here's a clear transcript of the forms and their users: http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php
Oh. We see him not using form II with a single lightsaber and his style when handling his unique weapon also doesn't match form too. But ok...now he's a master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat" using a unique weapon never seen before and never seen again. That somehow makes him less dangerous ? No. It just places him on one step with Dooku in terms of duelling skill, adding his unique weapon and his obvious greater force powers. You consider this to be an easy opponent for ROTS Sidious or ROTS Yoda ?
Grievous kills B'dard, Flynn Kybo, T'chooka Doon...all of whom practically rush him, not to mention Adi Gallia, Soon Baytes, Jmmar, L'lacielo Sageon, Pablo Jill...
The same Grievous that Lucas himself descripes as "cunning almost cowardly villain who isn't superstrong or superpowerful but still a good fighter" ? The same Grievous that was beaten by Kenobi in less then 30 seconds ? The same Grievous who had his chest crushed by Mace ?
Sylvar and Crado impressive? Ood who acknowledges combat's not his skill? Odan "I stand around uselessly in a big battle" Urr...Kun fought Freedon Nadd? Didn't surprise him with an amulet when Nadd was gloating? Kun fought Mandalore?
Ulic defeated Mandalore and it's pretty damn obvious that Kun is superior to Ulic. Want to argue that now ?
I think you misunderstood: The comparisons are to Vima Sunrider, not old withered crone Vima, the one who cut herself off from the Force after she touched the Dark Side?
Considering the fact that you still failed to provide the quote and you blatantly lied about the contains of several source before: Why should anybody thrust you that this statement even exists, hmm ? Quote + comic + page number or STFU.
...and by Dark Nest, twenty something years later, Leia hasn't fought at all since she killed Beldorian, so she's more than a bit rusty, considering she gains and loses power as the authors will....and everyone was fooled by Luke's doppleganger, droids and sensors were fooled by Luke's doppleganger.
Oh great...so because she gains and loses power at will you can compare Leia to anybody else. And because Nomi Sunrider was able to sense and destroy force illusions - while Leia couldn't even realize the force doppelganger in front of her, Leia must be greater then Nomi. Stop make me laughing.
When's a blast floor Nomi? Ulic raises it, it shines and someone yells "He's using a Sith Amulet! They're deadly! Since Kun never uses the blast again, we don't know if it can be blocked, or if it's infallible.
Hello. Nomi did just block Aleema's Sith Magic before, turns around and is down on her knees because just a part of the amulets power hits her. And yes...THEY ARE DEADLY ! Do you see the statement given by a Jedi ? What is so hard to understand here ? The amulets are DEADLY even to trained Jedi. Whoops. Owned yourself...
And according to Lucas, you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious, and Anakin if he weren't burnt, but that's it.
Oh...can it be that Lucas was only talking about people who lived in Sidious time ? Because by that logic Sidious would outduell all versions of Luke and same would be the case for Mace and Yoda.
The Ultimate Visual guide, it's just that...and as for Cin being killed by Anakin, along with Bene and Whie: the game, the novelization, the Order 66 article, possibly Dark Nest when Luke sees a hologram of Anakin killing a very skilled Jedi master..
You still miss the fact that you had a major fight between several thousand clones and Jedi in the temple and in the movie the recording ends while you can still hear Cin and Anakin fighting. So he could have been shot in the back or anything else could have happened.
How muchs tronger are the Sith than the Jedi? Because without illusions they lost on three planets, it only took four Jedi to stop their assault on Coruscant and their stronger ancestors were crushed by the Jedi in the Hundred Years darkness, and considering the comic says inbreeding with the Sith watered down powerful Bloodlines...and mainly, I'm just setting out to deal with this irritating saying that Kun is so far above Yoda's level, when Yoda is the strongest Jedi master who ever lived up until ROTS....actually, something's occuring to me,
The Sith - Sadow on his own - produced illusions powerful enough to fool all Jedi present on the planets. And did you see one SITH getting killed by a Jedi ? NO. Did you see the battles between the Jedi and the ancestors of the Sith ? No. Maybe the Jedi outnumbered them completely ?
And because Yoda is the greatest enemy of the Dark Side ever that automatically makes him more powerful then Jedi who didn't have the need to fight Dark Side users ?
Nai: What are we even arguing anymore? I think we've gotten sidetracked
Oh...nice inside. I told you the same thing ages ago...
You still didn't get the point. The point is that Dooku taunted Anakin to use his anger which gave Anakin the upper hand over Dooku.
I agree.
This is stated by Lucas as well as by Nick Gillard (who says that the "Dark Side" led Anakin become a "nine" compared to Obi-Wan who was an "eight"😉.
Nick also says Anakin is a better duelist than Dooku...
Lucas even says in the commentary that the issue is that the Sith apprentice has the ability to convert Jedi. What does that tell you ? That Dooku wanted to convert Anakin - not kill him. And that was all that Sidious told him: fight and convert Anakin.
George Lucas also says that Dooku didn't know squat about the plot to covert Anakin. I have no reason to believe Dooku was doing any more than goading the boy. Even if he was, it was by his own admission.
Dooku tossed Obi-Wan and Anakin around as he liked before Obi-Wan was out of the fight - that's a fact. Anakin couldn't do the same with Kenobi - another fact.
Hm, Anakin was not thinking exactly clearly at Mustafar. Maybe... he couldn't concentrate as well (and we need to concentrate to use the force really efficiently).
So what makes you think that Anakin could have beaten Dooku WITHOUT using his anger - a thing he did because Dooku basically told him to do so ?
Possibly nothing. But Anakin didn't get angry due to Dooku's obivious taunts, he got angry because Kenobi was KO'd. RotS novel.
What makes you think he was able to overpower Dooku if Dooku gave him all he could, trying to kill Anakin ?
And according to a source in EU, he did give it his all and simply lost. I still think Dooku was the superior force user, but (like the Mace vs Sidious fight or the Maul vs Kenobi fight to a lesser extent) maybe refrained from using force powers ? Maybe he was holding back with the force and plainly lost the saber fight.
Anakin was better than Kenobi as far as saber dueling went, so I don't know why people still use his loss at Mustafar against him esspecially when Kenobi just drew out the fight until Anakin messed up himself.
Originally posted by Razielim
And according to a source in EU, he did give it his all and simply lost. I still think Dooku was the superior force user, but (like the Mace vs Sidious fight or the Maul vs Kenobi fight to a lesser extent) maybe refrained from using force powers ? Maybe he was holding back with the force and plainly lost the saber fight.
So he was holding back in terms of force powers with he used moments before to knock out Obi-Wan and kick Anakin through the room - but the same time he was giving Anakin all he could ? Err...
Anakin was better than Kenobi as far as saber dueling went, so I don't know why people still use his loss at Mustafar against him esspecially when Kenobi just drew out the fight until Anakin messed up himself.
LOL. Did Anakin cut off his legs and his arm on his own ?
Fine, this is just a response, to the actual issue, Luke's team wins easily, but if were Kun himself? Butchered. I'm simply tired of people claiming he's on another level that just about any Jedi. And Nai? Here's a question: How much stronger are the Sith than the Jedi exactly? I'm not saying Yoda would beat anyone easily, but he'd win in the end.
Anyways, just ignore the rest of this, superfluous, but I can't bring myself to delete long posts. Good debate as always
Not every Sith Lord is a member of the council? Since when? When's that even implied?
Beldarian the Splendid. Beaten by Leia mano a mano. And he'd spent centuries mastering the darkside. And Beldarian was kept young thanks to Dzym, and much larger, stronger and faster than other hutts, succumbing to none of the bloated corpulence they did...and his counterpart on the planet who was killed by Luke. Oh, yeah, Volfe Karkko, killed one on one with Quin Vos. Darth Rivan, over a thousand years old? The dark Underlord, killed by Jedi Master Murtauggh?
Obi-wan won the fight because he knew Anakin better than anyone. The more experienced fighters such as, oh, say...Vader to Luke, Odan urr, Vodo...yeah, they lost, MANY of Anakin's opponents in the purge, Aurra Sing getting beaten by Padawan Hett, Sora Bulq being beaten by Quin Vos who killed the...centuries old Volfe Karkko. Anakin crushed Dooku, Jaina killed Tsavong Lah, yeah, there're lots of examples.
Wow, except Nadd didn't do anything to heal Kun! The dark side did and Kun letting it into himself healed him. When did it say Nadd did a thing? And the mother Leviathan beaten by the padawans was much more massive than the shown Sith wyrm. And Leviathans were the most feared and strongest of sithspawn anyways.
Great for Dooku, that's just his mistake, ain't it? He was outmatched by Anakin, his skill failed against Anakin's skill, he lost fair and square and if it were due to his own fault, that's even worse. And you know something else? There's NOTHING to suggest Anakin was holding back when every source on the matter says Dooku fought seriously, end of story.
Why should I 'forget' the article? Luke drawing strength from someone would just be using his resources. And because the original author doesn't write the story, doesn't make it less valid if it's approved by LFL. And yes, Luke was only stated to be a titan, incredibly powerful with both force and saber...oh, and a divinity of the light. Nope, no power.
"Because of you the Sith will never die?" Mmmhmm, and what does that mean? And considering Kun failed absolutely miserably, it seems Ragnos was a bit premature.
Proof Ulic couldn't use the Force? The wall from temporary for that moment...I'm really sure Ulic was gonna use the force when unarmed, with vodo and three other Jedi around, when one of thsoe JEdi would've killed him without a thought. And considering how he freaked out when his powers WERE taken, there's no reason to suspect he was 'blocked' from the force there beyond what it took to capture him.
The Krath had been around for what, months? Yeah, that's great, especially since the moments they faced real opponents, they got wiped out. And Sylvar was really frozen, killing those Massassi with her claws.
She screams 'murderer' at him and he pushes her. Kun leaves, natural psychology takes its course, anger leaves and reality sets in: Sylvar's master just died and she learned her lover is Kun's lapdog...of course, she's crying because she's force pushed, has nothing to do with two subsequent personal losses. And maybe KJA could show Kun actually do something large scale and impressive that hasn't been exceeded...of course, that'd require KJA be a good, competent author, so perhaps I'm asking for too much. Likewise, how many times do Yoda, Luke and Palp need to be described to a level above just about anyone else until you accept it. I'll accept Kun's superiority to the Jedi of those age, no reason why he's superior to people from the Golden Age of the Jedi.
Hmmm..."you have to be Mace or Yoda to contend with Sidious." Right. Mmhmm. What's Saesee's excuse? Or Kit's? Neither needed 'large space'. Just accept it: Sidious was superior to all three, is a 'nine' in saber combat, right with Yoda and Ani. Yes, what are Agen's accomplishments? Sidious was smarter, faster and therefore he was better and would kill any of those three in an open area.
I think Escape took care of your definition of 'overpowered'. According to the novelization? Sidious dropped his speed and Mace's shatterpoint ability allowed him to triumph. When Mace is doing all he can with one attack, he's really gonna be able to defend himself from Sidious...and given we know of the force mask ability, Palpatine has been shown switching between faces before and undergoing a ritual to give himself the mask. And of course, that his clones look exactly the same...does Palp blast himself in the face for cosmetics? Nope, nothing about Sidious failing to kill Mace with the force....yeah, especially as they say use of Dark Side power turns him to the empire...and isn't it strange how lightning changes your teeth and eyes? And You ignore the part where Lucas says Sidious is faking being weak and this is the point where Anakin turns and wants him to go on trial, which forces his hand.
And even after the commentary, it's been totally inconclusive, with any sources on the matter supporting either theory.
I trust the article: Kun used form II, period. And Yoda's countered it before and sent Dooku running with his tail between his legs. And Yoda's the strongest Jedi master who's ever lived up to that point. And stop avoiding the question: Either Yoda's above Kun or the Sith are incredibly above the Jedi and thus above someone with nine hundred years experience and more power than any other Sith has ever faced. And Yoda's had time to become as strong as he did, so he's got a bit more experience, hm?
Because A>B, A will automatically>C, right? If Kun didn't fight Mandalore, shut your mouth on the example.
"Leia has natural abilities like my ancestor Vima Sunrider!" And Power of the Jedi, "Leia achieved the power of Jedi masters from long ago, such as Nomi and Vima Sunrider." ...or is that hyperbole?
Oh, give me a break, Nai! Because 'doppleganger' is the same as 'large illusions of snakes which Nomi KNEW were illusions' Y'know, bit different than the practically infallible doppleganger technique used by Luke as compared to a wimp like Aleema.
Trained Jedi? There wasn't one master among that group. I'd be surprised if Nomi had more than a few years. Max. And that's great, now let's see a Sith amulet used on someone ready and expecting it.
Why would he be talking about only the people in Sidious's time and not up to that point? Luke wasn't born yet, we know Yoda's the strongest Jedi ever and Mace is one of the best duelists ever in the order, so...and what's hard to understand about 'Golden Age?'
Except we know Anakin killed Cin personally and cleaved him from shoulder down. There's nothing suggesting the clones were even present in the battle.
Fascinating. Palpatine and Luke have created illusionary fleets to terrify Republic forces into surrender. And if the Jedi outnumbered the Dark Jedi, wouldn't have taken a hundred years to beat them. And we see Memit Nadill dueling the Sith Lord on Coruscant, a Jedi inspecting one Sith Lord's corpse, and Shar Dakhan from Ooroo's sacrifice. And...six Jedi fighting. Total, that's great. Well, I suppose we can count Jori, so that's seven. Really poor Sith if they don't have any contingencies and get destroyed once the illusions are gone.
And Yoda's the strongest enemy of the dark side, ever...yeah, that makes him stronger than the others
If you want to stop, just say so. I don't mind or care
Nai, I want you to give me a rebuttle to my post that I made to you several pages back, concerning Mace v. Sidious.
Also, consider this:
- When Palpatine revealed himself to Anakin in his office, Anakin told him that he would inform the Jedi Council to Palpatine's true identity. Notice that Palpatine did not object - and even complimented him on his wisdom.
- When Anakin informs Mace of Palpatine's identity, Mace sends him to wait in the Jedi Council chambers until he and his entourage have returned from their confrontation with Palpatine.
- While Anakin is sitting in the Chambers, Palpatine's voice is overheard during the scene. People have often dismissed that as Anakin, repeatign Palpatine's words. Except here's the kicker! The words that Palpatine says in that scene weren't said when Anakin confronted him in his office. So, he couldn't have repeated anything.
My conclusion: Palpatine sent him a message through the Force.
Here's the official script's take:
125 INT. CORUSCANT-JEDI COUNCIL/PADME'S APARTMENT-EARLY EVENING(INTERCUT)
PADME is alone in her apartment, thinking of Anakin. ANAKIN sits alone in the Jedi Council Chamber thinking of PADME.
PALPATINE: (V.O.) You do know, don't you, if the Jedi destroy me, any chance of saving her will be lost.
PADME: I truly, deeply love you. Before I die. I want you to know.
C-3PO: My Lady, are you. . . . Are you all right?
ANAKIN: I can't do this ... I can't let her die.
ANAKIN rushes out of the Council Chamber and to his speeder. The hangar door opens and he lifts off.
There. Palpatine's voice over was not a repeat of one of his lines that he fed to Anakin in their confrontation in his office. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that Palpatine sent him that message with the sole intent of bringing Anakin back to his office, to confront Mace Windu.
Which means that Palpatine's loss to Mace could very well have been a fake.
The Visual Guide and novelization also ntoe a few interesting things: The novelization says Palpatine hesitated when Mace notices anakin nearing...and drops his speed slightly. The VG says Palp used Anakin as his greatest weapon for Ani's desperation.
It's an astounding amount of coincidences for a world without then
So he was holding back in terms of force powers with he used moments before to knock out Obi-Wan and kick Anakin through the room - but the same time he was giving Anakin all he could ?
Dooku simply felt he could take out Anakin in a saber fight, I guess.
Oh, and on Mace vs Sidious... I find it strange that Sidious loses seconds before Anakin enters the room when he knows Anakin is coming.
Originally posted by Razielim
[b]So he was holding back in terms of force powers with he used moments before to knock out Obi-Wan and kick Anakin through the room - but the same time he was giving Anakin all he could ?Dooku simply felt he could take out Anakin in a saber fight, I guess.
Oh, and on Mace vs Sidious... I find it strange that Sidious loses seconds before Anakin enters the room when he knows Anakin is coming. [/B]
As much as I hate to defy the unspoken rules of Star Wars, for upper echelon debators, it is the truth.
The script and George Lucas both support the fact that Count Dooku was simply bested because Anakin gave into his rage, and outdueled the Count. This leads me to believe, now, that Anakin was simply better than Count Dooku.
The script and the movie both also support that Palpatine orchestrated the entire duel between him and Mace, for my reasons above.
Originally posted by Escape81
As much as I hate to defy the unspoken rules of Star Wars, for upper echelon debators, it is the truth.The script and George Lucas both support the fact that Count Dooku was simply bested because Anakin gave into his rage, and outdueled the Count. This leads me to believe, now, that Anakin was simply better than Count Dooku.
The script and the movie both also support that Palpatine orchestrated the entire duel between him and Mace, for my reasons above.
First, when does GL say things like, "Anakin bested Dooku" or "Anakin has ten times Sidious' potential? I've never actually heard him say ANYTHING of the sort.
Second, explain why Anakin in his rage would be able to defeat Count Dooku, as Dooku pwned Obi-wan horribly, yet Obi-wan defeated Anakin when Anakin was at the apex of his rage on Mustafar. I believe that it was mentioned that Anakin as Vader was Anakin at his prime of all time. Hence, Anakin/Vader on Mustafar would have been superior to Anakin at any prior point, including when he gave into his rage on the Invisible Hand.
Third, what part of the script indicates that Anakin bested Dooku through his own strength and not because Sidious tricked Dooku? I'd like to see a copy if you have one.
- When Palpatine revealed himself to Anakin in his office, Anakin told him that he would inform the Jedi Council to Palpatine's true identity. Notice that Palpatine did not object - and even complimented him on his wisdom.
Palpatine knew that he was perfectly safe against a large scale Jedi attack. He had hundreds of thousands of clones at his command and Yoda himself was only able to get to him because he sneaked his way in (I believe that was mentioned in the ep3 novel).
On the compliment part, the more praise Sidious gave him, the better it would be in anycase. Anakin already liked him more then Obi-wan apparently, and giving him more praise would only make him seem more friendly. It does not directly point to you fake fight idea.
- When Anakin informs Mace of Palpatine's identity, Mace sends him to wait in the Jedi Council chambers until he and his entourage have returned from their confrontation with Palpatine.
Not really much to be said on this.
- While Anakin is sitting in the Chambers, Palpatine's voice is overheard during the scene. People have often dismissed that as Anakin, repeatign Palpatine's words. Except here's the kicker! The words that Palpatine says in that scene weren't said when Anakin confronted him in his office. So, he couldn't have repeated anything.
The thing is that Palpatine wouldn't have known that Anakin wasn't coming. Anyway, I'm tired, so I'm just going to jump to the end for now. I'll get to the rest tomorrow probably.
Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that Palpatine sent him that message with the sole intent of bringing Anakin back to his office, to confront Mace Windu.
Which means that Palpatine's loss to Mace could very well have been a fake.
When was this message sent? How would Sidious know how Anakin was going to respond? Anakin could have very easily let Mace go ahead and kill Sidious. Putting himself at such risk is EXTREMELY out of character for Sidious.
Most of all, GL stated that Mace overpowered Sidious. That doesn't leave much room for discussion as far as I am concerned.
First of all: The novelization and Labyrinth of evil make it clear Dooku wasn't holding back and wasn't supposed to be.
Palp wouldn't have known Anakin was coming? He can sense Anakin on Mustfar easily and Mace sensed when Anakin was about to arive. And Sidious is a genius manipulator, and his shatterpoint? He trusted Anakin. Fully and completely. He spent years building his fears up, he knew exactly how Ani would respond. He knew Anakin needed him tos ave Padme and forced his hand. And putting himself at risk is out of character for Sidious? The man who:
A. Allowed himself to be mandhandled by Grievous and placed near several explosions
B. Locked up aboard the Invisible Hand in a space battle.
C. Be in the center of a vicious firefight/Assassination attempt.
D. Didn't move a muscle when Luke swung at him with intention to kill
E. Trusted himself, unarmed, with an angry, powerful, armed Leia.
F. Went HIMSELF to Onderon for Anakin Solo and used his force powers when simple force lightning could destroy the final clone he had with the exertion
Sidious is a risk taker
It's that simple: Sidious knew what would've happened, didn't you see his eyes flick to Anakin and when he smiled? The commentary even says Anakin needs Sidious alive. Palpatine forced Anakin's hand, and played on his love
And people can be overpowered when they're holding back. That's fact.
First, when does GL say things like, "Anakin bested Dooku" or "Anakin has ten times Sidious' potential? I've never actually heard him say ANYTHING of the sort.
He said in the ROTS commentary that Dooku was unaware of Palpatine's plan and that he (Dooku) "was just supposed to fight Anakin". And that, Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he is strong enough to become his next apprentice, by killing Count Dooku.
Guess what? He kills Count Dooku.
As for the 'potential' line, I believe that it was an April 2005 issue of Vanity Fair magazine.
Second, explain why Anakin in his rage would be able to defeat Count Dooku, as Dooku pwned Obi-wan horribly, yet Obi-wan defeated Anakin when Anakin was at the apex of his rage on Mustafar. I believe that it was mentioned that Anakin as Vader was Anakin at his prime of all time. Hence, Anakin/Vader on Mustafar would have been superior to Anakin at any prior point, including when he gave into his rage on the Invisible Hand.
Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Glentract, you're one of the biggest fans of the Person A can outduel Person B, but that doesn't mean he can outduel Person C who could be crushed by Person B.
Anakin has already been described as a superior fighter to Obi-Wan. But Obi-Wan is a master of a defensive lightsaber form, and he has spent over a decade sparring with and along side Anakin. He knows Anakin's form. To top it off, he is also more level-headed. That's how Anakin beat him.
Third, what part of the script indicates that Anakin bested Dooku through his own strength and not because Sidious tricked Dooku? I'd like to see a copy if you have one.
Sure. I'll post it after this.
Palpatine knew that he was perfectly safe against a large scale Jedi attack. He had hundreds of thousands of clones at his command and Yoda himself was only able to get to him because he sneaked his way in (I believe that was mentioned in the ep3 novel).
Oh, you can read Palpatine's thoughts now? No, Glentract, you're making invalid assumptions. Palpatine intentionally revealed himself to Anakin, and Anakin told Palpatine that he'd tell the Council. Palpatine agreed and complimented Anakin on his wisdom. You don't know what the hell he was thinking, so don't assume.
On the compliment part, the more praise Sidious gave him, the better it would be in anycase. Anakin already liked him more then Obi-wan apparently, and giving him more praise would only make him seem more friendly. It does not directly point to you fake fight idea.
No, what it points to is that Palpatine really wasn't cowed at the thought of the Council being informed. Which then implies that Palpatine had a plan to handle the situation.
The thing is that Palpatine wouldn't have known that Anakin wasn't coming. Anyway, I'm tired, so I'm just going to jump to the end for now. I'll get to the rest tomorrow probably.
Ehem. . . Palpatine didn't know for certain that Anakin would kill Count Dooku, either. Sorry. Master manipulator or no, there's a strong degree of risk that Palpatine took in ROTS. It was all or nothing. He risked his life on Invisible Hand, and Anakin's life, too. It just so happened that it worked out to his advantage.
When was this message sent? How would Sidious know how Anakin was going to respond? Anakin could have very easily let Mace go ahead and kill Sidious. Putting himself at such risk is EXTREMELY out of character for Sidious.
Go back and re-read, Glentract. The voice over that appeared in that scene was not a repeat of Palpatine's words in the office. The line was entirely different. And, Force-users can communicate with one another via the Force.
It was sent when Anakin was sitting in the Council chambers, as Mace left to confront Palpatine.
Most of all, GL stated that Mace overpowered Sidious. That doesn't leave much room for discussion as far as I am concerned.
This is the final time I am posting this. You may be a math-whiz, but I am not too shabby in my English skills. I hate to argue semantics, but overpowered simply means to subdue. Or to win by using superior force.
Having said that, even if Palpatine was holding back, Mace - by literary definition still overpowered Palpatine. So, the fight is still in question.
Sorry to break the taboo of "Oh Em Gee Palpatine couldn't have planned that!!!11". Palpatine was a manipulator who managed to dupe Yoda and Mace for decades. I am pretty sure that he could do it in this fight.
Now. Glentract, my good friend, I am going to put the entire screen play of the fight here. I will also put emphasis on major statements. 🙂
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38 INT. GENERAL'S QUARTER'S-TRADE FEDERATION CRUISER
The elevator door opens and the TWO JEDI carefully make their way into the main room of the General's Quarters.
At the far end sits SUPREME CHANCELLOR PALPATINE. ANAKIN and OBI-WAN move toward the CHANCELLOR.
As they get closer to PALPATINE, they see a very distressed look on the Chancellor's face.
(con't...)
OBI-WAN and ANAKIN charge COUNT DOOKU. A great sword fight ensues.
(con't...)
As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry.
ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU . COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force.
ANAKIN and COUNT DOOKU move up the stairs. As they reach the upper landing of the General's Quarters, ANAKIN leaps over COUNT DOOKU. OBI-WAN reaches the top of the stairs, destroying TWO SUPER BATTLE DROIDS. COUNT DOOKU holds OBI-WAN in the air using the Force as he turns and kicks ANAKIN out of frame. OBI-WAN is choking.
ANAKIN hits the archway.
DOOKU sends OBI-WAN flying. The Jedi tumbles to the lower level unconscious. COUNT DOOKU spins around again and, using the Force, causes a section of the balcony to drop onto OBI-WAN.
ANAKIN spins and kicks COUNT DOOKU, sending him over the balcony. ANAKIN Jumps, following him down to the main floor. COUNT DOOKU and ANAKIN continue the fight.
(con't...)
Anakin regains his composure and attacks COUNT DOOKU as the Dark Lord continues his spin to meet him head on. Their fighting becomes even more intense.
Anakin attacks COUNT DOOKU with a new ferociousness.
(con't...)
Anakin and Dooku continue their fight. It is intense !
Finally, in one last energized charge, ANAKIN cuts off COUNT DOOKU's hands.
The Jedi catches the lightsaber as it drops from the severed Sith Lord's hand. COUNT DOOKU stumbles to the floor as ANAKIN puts the two lightsabers to his neck.
PALPATINE is grinning as he watches COUNT DOOKU's defeat.
(finished)
----------------
There you have it.
According to the script, Anakin utilized his hate and rage, and simply overpowered Count Dooku. It doesn't even hint that Dooku was holding back. It even specifically states:
"Obi-Wan and Count Dooku become tired."
There ya have it, Glentract. Anakin simply outfought him.