In terms of The EU, not including virtual unknowns, it goes:
1. Revan.
2. Luke Skywalker.
3. Darth Bane.
4. Darth Sion.
5. Darth Nihilus.
6. Darth Traya.
7. Zayne Carrick.
8. Kyp Durron.
9. Jacen Solo.
10. Lord Hoth.
Any incarnation of Ragnos does not even come close to this list, and I can assure you that he would not even make the top 30. I mean I can think of about 30 characters solely from the NJO and the KOTOR series that would be above Ragnos.
Originally posted by Razielim
Revan would get curbstomped by Luke, DE Sidious and Sadow.Really, what has Revan done that came close to manipulating black holes, rip apart star fleets and anything Sadow did ? Revan is probably below Yoda's level.
He destroyed Malak with all of the power of the star forge at his disposal (which enabled him to continuously rejuvenate his life). Even defeating a minor force user with all of the power of the star forge would have been impressive, let alone Malak, who was very proficient in Tulak Hord's fighting technique and who had a terrifying grasp of the dark side, not to mention his incredible physical strength.
He was able to hold off Bastilla who was not only able to wield a little of the star forge's power and who was not only slightly proficient in Tulak Hord's technique (which focuses on deadly attacks that makes the fight hardly last long at all and is incredibly hard to defend against and sometimes the only defence against it is offence ), but was enraged with the dark side to such a frightening degree that Malak even believed that he would have trouble defeating her. On top of this, he was also able to draw on their love and turn her back to the light, which was very impressive and suggests that Revan was very wise and in control of his emotions.
What makes these things extra impressive was that prior to them, he was able to fight through an entire fortress of dark jedi and advanced star forge battle droids, and was also able to defend and protect his fallen comrades (Jolee Bindo, Juhani, Canderous Ordo and Zalbaar). So he had enough energy to do those two incredible feats after battling through the entire Star Forge fortress. That is very impressive.
He was also earlier able to defeat Darth Bandon, who like Bastilla and Malak, was slightly proficient in Tulak Hord's technique and who was very proficient in the red side of the force. Bare in mind that he achieved all of this after he had had his memory wiped by the jedi. He was much more powerful before as a sith lord.
On top of all of these achievements, Revan was able to master a bunch of force techniques of the universal, light and dark side of the force, including force storm and force drain. He was able to master all 7 standard lightsaber styles whether with one lightsabers, two sabers or a saber staff and was able to master Tulak Hord's style. This is phenomenal. He was also able to control Ajunta Pall's famous sword and not be consumed by it's power. This suggests great strength in the light and great willpower and force mastery and control. He also had such a high will power that he was able to mind control a Hutt. This was only ever achieved again by the Exile, Zayne.
Originally posted by Count KentThis is so flawed it's not even humorous, pass what you're smoking please.
He destroyed Malak with all of the power of the star forge at his disposal (which enabled him to continuously rejuvenate his life). Even defeating a minor force user with all of the power of the star forge would have been impressive, let alone Malak, who was very proficient in Tulak Hord's fighting technique and who had a terrifying grasp of the dark side, not to mention his incredible physical strength.He was able to hold off Bastilla who was not only able to wield a little of the star forge's power and who was not only slightly proficient in Tulak Hord's technique (which focuses on deadly attacks that makes the fight hardly last long at all and is incredibly hard to defend against and sometimes the only defence against it is offence ), but was enraged with the dark side to such a frightening degree that Malak even believed that he would have trouble defeating her. On top of this, he was also able to draw on their love and turn her back to the light, which was very impressive and suggests that Revan was very wise and in control of his emotions.
What makes these things extra impressive was that prior to them, he was able to fight through an entire fortress of dark jedi and advanced star forge battle droids, and was also able to defend and protect his fallen comrades (Jolee Bindo, Juhani, Canderous Ordo and Zalbaar). So he had enough energy to do those two incredible feats after battling through the entire Star Forge fortress. That is very impressive.
He was also earlier able to defeat Darth Bandon, who like Bastilla and Malak, was slightly proficient in Tulak Hord's technique and who was very proficient in the red side of the force. Bare in mind that he achieved all of this after he had had his memory wiped by the jedi. He was much more powerful before as a sith lord.
On top of all of these achievements, Revan was able to master a bunch of force techniques of the universal, light and dark side of the force, including force storm and force drain. He was able to master all 7 standard lightsaber styles whether with one lightsabers, two sabers or a saber staff and was able to master Tulak Hord's style. This is phenomenal. He was also able to control Ajunta Pall's famous sword and not be consumed by it's power. This suggests great strength in the light and great willpower and force mastery and control. He also had such a high will power that he was able to mind control a Hutt. This was only ever achieved again by the Exile, Zayne.
He destroyed Malak with all of the power of the star forge at his disposal (which enabled him to continuously rejuvenate his life).
Substantiate the "power of the Star Forge" and prove that Revan didn't drain the tubes himself.
Even defeating a minor force user with all of the power of the star forge would have been impressive
Unless you prove how it heightens your abilities, and by how much, the point is pretty much moot.
let alone Malak, who was very proficient in Tulak Hord's fighting technique and who had a terrifying grasp of the dark side, not to mention his incredible physical strength.
lol.
Revan has Tulak Hord's holocron. Now prove Malak was profient with it. The last two were said by whom?
Oh, and Kreia used those terms to describe Marka Ragnos, not Malak.
He was able to hold off Bastilla who was not only able to wield a little of the star forge's power and who was not only slightly proficient in Tulak Hord's technique
Proof Bastila knew about Revan's holocron? Prove Bastila was anything more than an average Jedi?
(which focuses on deadly attacks that makes the fight hardly last long at all and is incredibly hard to defend against and sometimes the only defence against it is offence )
Source please.
but was enraged with the dark side to such a frightening degree that Malak even believed that he would have trouble defeating her.
Source please. And prove that Malak would have any trouble defeating her.
On top of this, he was also able to draw on their love and turn her back to the light, which was very impressive and suggests that Revan was very wise and in control of his emotions.
Prove from a canon source that Revan was a male. And light sided.
What makes these things extra impressive was that prior to them, he was able to fight through an entire fortress of dark jedi and advanced star forge battle droids, and was also able to defend and protect his fallen comrades (Jolee Bindo, Juhani, Canderous Ordo and Zalbaar)
He could have snuck by them and killed no one. Point moot.
So he had enough energy to do those two incredible feats after battling through the entire Star Forge fortress. That is very impressive.
He might have not "battled" a single thing.
He was also earlier able to defeat Darth Bandon, who like Bastilla and Malak, was slightly proficient in Tulak Hord's technique and who was very proficient in the red side of the force. Bare in mind that he achieved all of this after he had had his memory wiped by the jedi. He was much more powerful before as a sith lord.
No, he was more powerful after the mind wipe. Malak even admits this. And what is this crap about the "RED" side of the force? And Tulak Hord's holocron? Jeez, it seems like EVERYBODY has it.
On top of all of these achievements, Revan was able to master a bunch of force techniques of the universal, light and dark side of the force, including force storm and force drain.
We don't know which techniques Revan had. Point moot. He probably did have force lightning, but again, just speculation
He was able to master all 7 standard lightsaber styles whether with one lightsabers, two sabers or a saber staff and was able to master Tulak Hord's style.
Source where it said he mastered all seven and Tulak Hord's style, please.
He was also able to control Ajunta Pall's famous sword and not be consumed by it's power. This suggests great strength in the light and great willpower and force mastery and control.
Uh huh. And in my game, he didn't even set a foot in that tomb. And where does it say that the sword "consumes" people and that it requires awesome power to weild it? Uthar Wynn took it from him and he didn't explode.
He also had such a high will power that he was able to mind control a Hutt. This was only ever achieved again by the Exile, Zayne.
Proof he did this, please.
Originally posted by Razielim
You need to prove up. I don't think I've been offensive or a bully or a dick. You shouldn't take Star Wars to heart. It's just fiction. Revan isn't all he's cracked up to be.
Did I say that you were being a bully or dick to me? Did I say that I took it to heart. I was speaking in general.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That would be called an out-of-universe explanation. What is the in-universe explanation?
Lol, there doesnt need to be an in-universe explanation. The scream was similar in purpose to the music, now your going to tell me I have to give an in-universe explanation for the music too?
Originally posted by Count Kent
Even as of DE, Sidious is leagues below the great powerful sith lords.
As of the Dark Empire comics, Emperor Palpatine is at his strongest.
Or, perhaps, you can point out to me when he managed to create a Force Storm (which can obliterate entire fleets or teleport individuals across the galaxy) before that.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm just saying, considering the Sith Lords were completely wiped out, from either Ludo's folloy or Naga's attack.
Not even all people belonging to the Sith Council died and those weren't all Sith Lords as we see Lords in the comics that don't belong to the Council...
If we take the villains into account themselves, then it puts Yoda far above the others, unless people like Vodo were the best the light ever had to offer. Since Kun is hardly the greatest the darkness has had to offer, logic would dictate Yoda is greater than him, and considering Yoda's come into the power of the light in a way few ever even understand, and the light is stronger than the dark side if used properly...
That is stupid reasoning, Lightsnake and if you try to declare that to be "logical" you should quit debating. Kun most likely isn't the greatest Darksider but what the heck does this have to do with Yoda being the greatest enemy of the Dark Side ? Yoda can be what he is but that doesn't affect the Sith and Kun wasn't beaten by a single person - all that tried to do so failed miserably. So what ? If Yoda is the greatest enemy of the Dark Side that only means he has a better chance then the people Kun destroyed - nothing more.
It says he did in the DE sourcebook, and Jorus was a year back. And it only took Exar...three years to become the 'darkest power in the galaxy'...and several, what, weeks, to become a full fledged power as a Sith Lord.
Cool. The same DE sourcebook that was released before the PT (at least the last two movies, the CW novels, the CW cartoons etc.). Yes I would totally trust that when it says that "Luke surpassed all other Jedi" when we had seen nothing of the PT Jedi's strength.
And the novelization goes on to explain Anakin and Obi-wan were using inferior forms to trick Dooku. The novelization says he fought seriously, the script says he was plain overpowered, LoE has Sidious TELLING him to fight to his best...and yeah, Kenobi's SKILL means nothing? And Anakin's state of mind? There's a reason Kenobi was sent after Anakin: Because he knew him, knew his moves and knew how to counter him, it's that simple. It has nothing to do with power.
Lmao, Lightsnake. The MOVIE shows them fighting like they always did. Novel is pwned. And if you want to use the novel than Dooku was told not to kill Anakin which means he can't have given all he could. Then again the movie shows Dooku beating the living sh*t out of them before Obi-Wan is out of the fight.
And Kenobi was sent to take out Anakin because he wasn't able to take down the Emperor. Direct statement given by Yoda. That's it. Nothing about "knowing Anakin" and so on...he was sent there because Yoda was the only Jedi left able to destroy Sidious. Period.
And you can see Anakin and Obi-Wan stalemating in terms of force powers when they try to force push each other. So how can Anakin be above the Emperor at this point when he can't overpower the guy who isn't able to take the Emperor ? He can't - and much less his own son with less potential, less training and less combat experience. It's that simple.
So either Leia did help Luke in his fight against the Emperor (which would make his lightsaber abilities less impressive) or she didn't but then Sidious lightsaber abilities are below Luke's and (logically) below those of Anakin, Obi-Wan and the people above them (Dooku, Yoda, Mace, Depa). Your choice.
Vodo who by his own admission couldn't truly fight Exar and Ulic who Exar failed to overcome?
He couldn't fight Exar ? Excuse me: He did put Exar on his ass once - so if he couldn't win then due to Exar's skill gain. And WTF ? Exar's and Ulic's fight was interrupted but it's pretty obvious that Kun is more powerful than Ulic since he received the title of the Dark Lord and pretty much pwned Aleema who treatened Ulic like her personal slave before giving him the amulet.
Cay didn't WANT to fight Ulic, he was crying during the fight! And Sylvar couldn't outduel Kun? That fight was never even finished and Kun just out and grabbed her when she clawed him. And Vodo being Kun's former master had nothing to do with it? Unless we saw every other Master, most of whom weren't even present...there's a reason Kun sent apprentice after master, too. The logic is 'Vodo tried and failed so he must be better'
Did you notice how non of the Jedi in the Senate tried to stop Ulic (without force powers and weapon) and then move to Kun ? Did you notice how Kun simply threw Sylvar around like a ragdoll ?
And in case you just didn't notice. Ulic is superior to Cay even when they are still training under Arca - it's said that he's Arca's best student. The entire story development of the comics pretty much points out that Exar > Vodo / Ulic > rest. Ulic and Exar are simply putting everybody else down.
Anything's better than just letting him stab or slash you. Just face it: Sidious was plain faster, smarter and better than they were....or, y'know a simple sweep of one's blade could've saved their lives.
He was still floored by Mace Windu. Period. The death of the other 3 was plain and simply stupid and technically they all should have survived longer individually - at least Kit should have.
Except nothing to say he didn't overpower him because Sidious held back. Cuts both ways.
You can't overpower somebody who is holding back. Lucas even goes so far that he says Sidious only faked weakness AFTER trying to kill Mace with force lightning and failing. And that means he didn't hold back before. Hell...how stupid can the idea be. Why would he "hold back" when he already killed all other people in his office. No reason. And the fact that the entire fight with Sidious losing was always on Lucas mind like this (he says that in the commentary) proofs that Sidious wasn't holding back but Mace was just to powerful. Sidious couldn't defeat him with a saber and he couldn't do it with the force either. Period.
cont...
...cont.
That's great. Luke was also flying across Palp's throne room, too fast than the eye could perceive.
Yes. Everything in the SW universe happens faster than the eye could perceive. If Luke farts people can smell it on the other side of the Galaxy 20 seconds later...
Ahhh, yes, the hyperbole backpedal. Considering said swordsmen are only described such and that's used by Insider to compliment Palpatine's skill, not to mention...trying to say Mace, Yoda and Luke aren't three of the most powerful entities the galaxy's seen? Especially when Palpatine is noted as 'perhaps one of the best duelists who ever lived' and Mace is 'one of the greatest duelists the Jedi order ever produced', with Yoda above him, and Luke's skill with a saber being described as 'incredible'
In case you didn't notice. "One of the best" can always refer to the top 5, 10 or even 100. Yet Kun is the only person who invented his own unique lightsaber and a matching style to use this weapon never seen or used again.
Grievous needed surprised? Which is why we've seen accomplished Jedi rush him and get cut down. Ulic held off Sylvar, goody for him. I'd pity the man who couldn't hold off an emotionally scarred berserker. And toss Anja Gallandro on that list.
Watch the CW cartoons. Dooku tells Grievous what he needs to defeat Jedi in combat. I think in LoE is another scene where Dooku tells Grievous which people who seriously pwn him in lightsaber combat.
Palpatine is describe das possibly one of the greatest duelists who have ever lived, end of your 'he has no dueling skill' argument. Even if he's not, this shows he's more than qualified as a duelist. And I pity the duelist without tactical skills or intelligence.
He has no duelling skill compared to the real "top guys" - this is why we always see him losing fights against them. See above. Of couse he isn't the weakest lightsaber user ever but he also isn't able to defeat people like Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Depa and KUN in sheer lightsaber confrontation. Because they do focus on that skill while Sidious didn't.
Except the comic says Leia is strong as Nomi and Vima, try again.
Nice how you still failed to give me the direct quote or the page / comic where it can be found. She is as strong as Vima who lost a great part of her actual power. Wow.
Keep trying to go against what the facts say, Nai. Since that 'Yoda is the greatest foe the darkness had ever known,' let's use some logic...Yoda doesn't mind killing dark siders, he's done it ruthlessly in the past. He'd have no restraints with Kun, and by definition, unless the darksiders are all just above the Light, which has been proven and stated to be false, Yoda has mastered every discipline of the light and become the greatest force of light the galaxy had ever seen by that point, so unless Kun can contend with the most powerful Jedi who's ever lived up until that point, he's a dead man. Yoda's had nine hundred years to come into the full power of the light side, Kun had three years with the dark side. He's also facing the being who's mastered every discipline of the Jedi, will not hesitate to kill him, doesn't give a damn about turning him to the light and can throw anything he dishes out back in his face.
Yeah. I'd like to see Yoda deflecting Exar's amulet blasts with his bare hands which are far more destructive compared to Sidious force lightning. And then he just has to outduel him in the 5 seconds DN Luke would need to wipe ROTS Sidious from existance.
And of course "greatest enemy of the Dark Side" is equal to "guy who killed most Dark Jedi in history" because ZERO is such an impressive number. Oh noes. IF Yoda fought Dark Siders before it could be ONE because - damn - you have only two Sith and they weren't completly destroyed. Damn. Or this might just refer to Yoda's philosophy. Or perhabs Yoda does have something against nighttime and tries to fight it.
And fact: Sidious is described as an exceptional duelist and possibly one of the greatest duelists who ever lived, by a canon and factual article that certainly supercedes any argument you could make.
Fact: Leia is described as being as powerful as Nomi and Vima, by their own descendant and in later narraration.
Fact: "One of the best" isn't "the best". Fact: You still failed to give me the exact quote by Vima. Fact: Vima surely isn't as powerful as Nomi because I didn't see her sitting on the PT council. Oh damn...she even failed to keep her daughter from getting killed by a war lord an much better - her daughter failed to do so herself. Yes...great force users that must be...totally compareable to Nomi Sunrider who wrecked entire battalions of combatants on her own.
And unless you have something of Kun's by the PT archaic Makashi skill...and the golden age of the Jedi, with some of the greatest duelists the Jedi Order had ever seen...no advancements in saber combat? In the ages of the Dookus, Anakins-described as a 'nine' in saber combat by Mr. Gillard who invented his style, up there with Palpatine, Yoda and Mace, the Maces, the Yodas...
And unless you have a source stating that Kun used Makashi - which he obviously didn't you can consider that to be useless. And Gillard didn't invent the lightsaber forms - so you can exclude his comments here anyways - unless of course you want to accept his quote that Cin Drallig would be able to destroy ROTS Anakin, Obi-Wan and TPM Maul all at once in a lightsaber fight.
There go your 'facts', Nai. As you said: Sell it to someone who buys it, I'm trusting the soruce material.
You're only thrusting your own interpretation of the source material - even if the sources are completely contradicting your ideas or contradicting each other.