Exar Kun and DN Luke Vs Rots Sidious and ROts Yoda

Lmao, Lightsnake. The MOVIE shows them fighting like they always did.

Not entirely true. Kenobi is shown to be usually fighting on the defensive during the films (Anny vs Obi on Mustafar). At the beginning of the fight he is on the attack (fighting similarly to Anakin, lunging with horizantal strikes) and Dooku is on the defence.

And if you want to use the novel than Dooku was told not to kill Anakin which means he can't have given all he could.

And then Dooku realizes he can't control Anakin and decides to go all out. And lost.

Then again the movie shows Dooku beating the living sh*t out of them before Obi-Wan is out of the fight.

Yeah, then Anakin gets pissed and a minute and a half later there's a floating Sith Lord head on the Invisible Hand.

Nai, did you see my reply?

We see...how many Sith Lords? And Naga has the remainder of the Sith Lords butchered aboard their ships, those that didn't die in the assault as we see several.

Yeah, bit hard to be beaten by a single person when you have an army, really...and Naga was killed by a single person. If Yoda is the 'greatest force of light' thus far, he has more than just a 'better chance'...how much stronger are the Sith than the Jedi exactly?

Except it contradicts nothing, so it still applies.

Provide proof Dooku held back, please. Because a G-canon source that Lucas reviewed says he didn't. LoE told him NOT to hold back and if Anakin died, it was his own fault. The script says Anakin overpowered him. The Ultimate Visual Guide? Yep, Dooku was overpowered. There's nothing backing you up and everything saying Dooku fought his best.

Faulty logic again. It was said Luke won because he had his sister to fight for and drew strength from her.

Ragnos said he gave him the title because Exar revived the Sith, nothing about power there. And right after he 'put Exar on his ass' Exar came back swining. ...and Aleema was nothing special, what does that do about anything? Ulic was her sex toy and guardian, point?

So, the Jedi in the senate were idiots? I mean, Vodo only told them to stay out of it. And a force push equals throwing someone around like a ragdoll? And if the story was trying to point that out, it failed miserably.

Except for one thing: They DIDN'T survive longer, Sidious was just better.

Um, yeah you can, since apparently the script says Anakin overpowered Dooku, according to Escape. Gee, why would Sidious hold back when Anakin's arriving and he wants to turn him to the Dark Side, I wonder! And yeah, proof Sidious couldn't beat Mace with the force? The lightning part was an obvious fake out and the novelization and visual guide back that up. Hell, in the novel, Mace feels Anakin approaching...and feels Sidious slightly drop his speed. In the Ultimate visual guide, it's said Sidious played Anakin and used him as his greatest weapon. Sidious's shatterpoint? He trusted Anakin totally and completely. The Force? Sidious had plenty of power back and he fried Mace with more power AND a push that he didn't display earlier when that force push would've won him a victory.

Yeah, too bad the Dictionaries stated Kun was a Makashi user.

Yeah, and Grievous is shown taking on Jedi head on and dismantling them.

Yes, yes, yes. At least Sidious actually fights people who're impressive. And once more: I trust Shadow Hunter's description of his incredible skill, along with DE and Insider and the Visual guides which describe him as a master, and Nick Gillard who puts him right up there with Yoda and Mace.

It's in Empire's End and Insider...now, where did Vima 'lose a large portion of her power?' Where are you pulling that crap from? Did Nomi lose a large part of her power, too?

And once more: No proof those amulets are fool proof considering that blast was never used against another Jedi.

Ignorance much? Ever heard of the Dark Jedi on Bpfassh Yoda slaughtered? There were multiple dark siders during Yoda's time, renegade Jedi, plain evil people, dark sects, Bane's order...and in dark Rendevous, there's a nice mention of Yoda killing Dark Siders before....seriously, what does 'Strongest foe the darkness had ever known' mean, especially as this was in regards to combat? Yoda's faced the darkness in quote, unquote 'legion', he's dealt with jedi who've turned dark, Dark Jedi uprising, the dark side in numerous guises...he's mastered all the arts of the Jedi and lightside and he's has centuries to become more and more powerful. Answer me: how much greater is the darkness than the light? How much stronger is the strongest Sith than the strongest, much older Jedi?

Fact: One of the best is one of the best and him being placed up there with Mace and Yoda defeats your assumption he's nothing special. And Vima on the PT council, yes, I'm sure that's the pinnacle of everything! Good lord, here we go...I think Vima knows what she's talking about with her ancestors more than you, considering she had no idea about what happened to Nima until it was too late because Neema only got out a message before her husband instantly had her executed. And on the PT council? Like Cin, Dooku, Qui...And it's even more amusing how you ignore Nomi instantly became a master with a saber after just grabbing it and she certainly didn't have Leia's potential. I trust the comic, Vima and Insider a lot more than your interpretation.

I do have a source stating Kun used Makashi and it's calle dthe visual guide and the Fightsaber article in Insider, David West Reynolds wrote it, thanks...aand I'd love to see that Nick quote about Cin, to see if he was actually seriously, because the man's not stupid...especially as Anakin, y'know, killed Cin.

Actually, it's what the material directly says. Try again

Lmao, Lightsnake. The MOVIE shows them fighting like they always did. Novel is pwned. And if you want to use the novel than Dooku was told not to kill Anakin which means he can't have given all he could. Then again the movie shows Dooku beating the living sh*t out of them before Obi-Wan is out of the fight.

Neither the script nor the commentary support that Dooku was holding back. You were keen on throwing the script in my face in the past, well here it is. According to the script and commentary, Anakin was simply better than Count Dooku. He utilized his rage.

"You have anger, you have fear. But you don't use them." - Dooku.

Well, Anakin did, and he bested Count Dooku.

And you can see Anakin and Obi-Wan stalemating in terms of force powers when they try to force push each other. So how can Anakin be above the Emperor at this point when he can't overpower the guy who isn't able to take the Emperor ? He can't - and much less his own son with less potential, less training and less combat experience. It's that simple.

I agree with you. Anakin's saber abilities are equal to or above Sidious. But his Force powers are not. I also agree with you. Obi-Wan would most likely be able to hold his own - if not defeat Sidious in a sheer lightsaber-to-lightsaber confrontation. But Sidious is quicker than he is, and is much more powerful in the Force.

Also - Obi-Wan's knowledge of how Anakin fights, how emotional he can be, and that he is the master of defensive lightsaber fighting would allow him to keep up with Anakin.

He was still floored by Mace Windu. Period. The death of the other 3 was plain and simply stupid and technically they all should have survived longer individually - at least Kit should have.

For the love of God. He wasn't floored by Mace. Jesus, you sound like Mace just took two swings and disabled Sidious. I'm sorry to tell you that Mace didn't own anyone. Sidious kept up for him, blow for blow.

Sidious didn't utilize his superior Force-powers in the duel against Mace. They had a sheer lightsaber-to-lightsaber confrontation. Mace didn't win by a landslide. Sidious kept up for him, and proved that he is on par with Mace.

You can't overpower somebody who is holding back. Lucas even goes so far that he says Sidious only faked weakness AFTER trying to kill Mace with force lightning and failing. And that means he didn't hold back before. Hell...how stupid can the idea be. Why would he "hold back" when he already killed all other people in his office. No reason. And the fact that the entire fight with Sidious losing was always on Lucas mind like this (he says that in the commentary) proofs that Sidious wasn't holding back but Mace was just to powerful. Sidious couldn't defeat him with a saber and he couldn't do it with the force either. Period.

Yes, you can. Not to argue semantics here, but you can overpower someone no matter what they do. If you sneak up on me and club me over the head with a stick, by definition, it is overpowering, despite me not being able to fight back.

To overcome or vanquish by superior force; subdue.

So, if (notice I say if) Palpatine was holding back, Mace still overpowered him by literary definition.

Secondly, Palpatine couldn't defeat Mace with the Force from that position.

Also, Lightsnake:

As MACE stares at ANAKIN in shock, PALPATINE springs to life.
The full force of Palpatine's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death. No more screams. No more moans. PALPATINE lowers his arms.

Palpatine didn't use a Force push. In real life, when one gets electrocuted, one convulses. Police tazers have been known to throw people back several feet. Essentially, that's what Palpatine's lightning did.

yeah, but Mace stays frozen, convulsing for a time, then he's just hurled back

Originally posted by Razielim
No, you need to understand the concept of canon. Canon is not your game experience because it would differ from mine. It's what said specifically in the storyline.

Nice response, btw. I'll be looking forward to whatever "proof" you have.

There is no such thing as ultimate canon. There are too many figureheads in Lucasarts and some of them are even more respected then GL. For instance NG and GL disagree on many issues. Who to believe? Neither is more important then the other. Canon is to believe, and people believe different things. People have different points of view. Canon is a point of view.

Except it's not and it's been strictly defined

Where has it been strictly defined?

By the Holocron, the division LFL formed to keep track of and sort out canon

I know of this, however it does not claim it to be absolute canon, and if it does, then it is a joke because the idea is rediculous.

Except...it's official, you aren't. Go away

If it was official, it would have been a joke. You need to learn how to interpret the context that words are used in. You also need to stop formulating off quotes as they are often inaccurate and plain wrong, and start coming up with opinions formulated with logical deductions.

A whole webpage from a guy who sorted out canon would be a joke? Mmmhmm. The only joke is you

As far as I'm concerned this discussion is over. Let's move on.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We see...how many Sith Lords? And Naga has the remainder of the Sith Lords butchered aboard their ships, those that didn't die in the assault as we see several.

How many Sith Lords we see ? You have the 10 council members, then others leading some battles not belonging to the Council. And they obviously have other people with tons of power. Naga Sadow is mentioned to be a member of a "priest caste" which surely include more then one person. I don't see a point to argue here. Since Odan says he has fought "remaining Sith Lords" he did exactly that...

Yeah, bit hard to be beaten by a single person when you have an army, really...and Naga was killed by a single person. If Yoda is the 'greatest force of light' thus far, he has more than just a 'better chance'...how much stronger are the Sith than the Jedi exactly?

No. He just has a better chance. Period. How much stronger the Sith are ? We have seen people having 1/10 of Yoda's experience going dark (Sidious) stalemating him in force contests. Dooku develops some pretty nice ideas when thinking about Yoda going dark (Dark Rendevouz). So people who did have centuries to train in the Dark Side surely would be damn powerful. I know that Kun doesn't belong to this category - but he still floored people who had 20 or 30 times his age and experience.
Not to mention his freezing of the Senate Chamber, the fact that he tossed Jedi and Sith magicians around like ragdolls, annihilated a force ghost without problems and wrecked the "Sithspawn" of Sadow.

Provide proof Dooku held back, please. Because a G-canon source that Lucas reviewed says he didn't. LoE told him NOT to hold back and if Anakin died, it was his own fault. The script says Anakin overpowered him. The Ultimate Visual Guide? Yep, Dooku was overpowered. There's nothing backing you up and everything saying Dooku fought his best.

Did you see ROTS ? I'm not even arguing that Dooku was finally beaten by Anakin but he still tossed Obi-Wan and Anakin around at his will then he taunted Anakin to use his darker feelings against him and only this gave Anakin the advantage over Dooku. Now ask yourself what would have happened if Dooku hadn't taunted him but instead simply go on with fighting ? And the ROTS novel overwrites LoE - higher level of canon, you know.

Faulty logic again. It was said Luke won because he had his sister to fight for and drew strength from her.

Oh ? Were was this said again ? I didn't find the line in the original source so - where is it ? In your imagination or do you have another sourcebook article stating that ? So everybody who lost against Sidious did just have a lack of an emotional bond ? So every Ki-Adi-Mundi would have been able to do so because he has a wife and several children ?

Ragnos said he gave him the title because Exar revived the Sith, nothing about power there. And right after he 'put Exar on his ass' Exar came back swining. ...and Aleema was nothing special, what does that do about anything? Ulic was her sex toy and guardian, point?

You did miss the "the strongest shall rule concept" did you ? And you obviously missed Exar tossing Aleema around who threatened Ulic as a "toy" and stated before that she will give him the Sith amulet because she pwns him the entire time, right ?

So, the Jedi in the senate were idiots? I mean, Vodo only told them to stay out of it. And a force push equals throwing someone around like a ragdoll? And if the story was trying to point that out, it failed miserably.

What did they do before Vodo entered, hmm ? They had the unarmed Ulic, stripped from the force in their way and some Massassi. Did somebody try to attack ? I mean...they didn't have to hurt Ulic as he was a complete non-issue there anyways but they did have to wait for Vodo to do anything ?
And yes...force pushing a Jedi in rage so hard that said Jedi immediatly calms down and decides to start crying sure is some nice ownage. Same way knocking out a force with for several minutes with a single attack (like Kun did to Aleema).

Except for one thing: They DIDN'T survive longer, Sidious was just better.

As you have no idea about melee combat consider this point to be done. I don't have the time to argue combat situations with people who don't have any idea about fighting.

Um, yeah you can, since apparently the script says Anakin overpowered Dooku, according to Escape. Gee, why would Sidious hold back when Anakin's arriving and he wants to turn him to the Dark Side, I wonder! And yeah, proof Sidious couldn't beat Mace with the force? The lightning part was an obvious fake out and the novelization and visual guide back that up. Hell, in the novel, Mace feels Anakin approaching...and feels Sidious slightly drop his speed. In the Ultimate visual guide, it's said Sidious played Anakin and used him as his greatest weapon. Sidious's shatterpoint? He trusted Anakin totally and completely. The Force? Sidious had plenty of power back and he fried Mace with more power AND a push that he didn't display earlier when that force push would've won him a victory.

You are contradicting the entire ROTS commentary. It's told explicitary that Sidious wanted to kill Mace with his first lightning attack and wasn't able to overcome Mace defence (lightsaber + force). It's also said that he wasn't able to overcome Mace in the lightsaber duel. So what do you want ? Lucas himself overwrites any other source so there is no need to debate here. Mace did defeat Sidious fair and square and Sidious wasn't able to overcome him forcewise and saberwise. End of story.

And Sidious already had Anakin over to the Dark Side. Anakin couldn't kill Sidious because he needed him to save Padme (or so he thought) - no matter if Mace would have been dead on the ground or not. Arguing Lucas words is useless.

Yeah, too bad the Dictionaries stated Kun was a Makashi user.

Yeah. Too bad. What Dictionaries are you talking about ? It's pretty damn obvious that he's using form V or something similar fighting with a normal lightsaber. His unique lightsaber is handled with one hand (yes...Makashi element) but he doesn't "fence" but instead still use powerful swings which are uncommon for Makashi. And please give me the dictionary including page number where this quote can be found. Because the only SW "dictionaries" I know do focus on the movies and not on the EU and are called "Visional dictionaries".

Yeah, and Grievous is shown taking on Jedi head on and dismantling them.

Yes ? How many Jedi he's attacking without an element of surprise ?

Yes, yes, yes. At least Sidious actually fights people who're impressive. And once more: I trust Shadow Hunter's description of his incredible skill, along with DE and Insider and the Visual guides which describe him as a master, and Nick Gillard who puts him right up there with Yoda and Mace.

What do you want, hmm ? So other people don't fight opponents who are impressiev. Of course. Freedon Nadd, Vodo, Sylvar, Crado, Ulic, Mandalore the Indomitable, Odan, Ood...a bunch of weakling. Yeah, right. It's easy to be more powerful then all of them.

It's in Empire's End and Insider...now, where did Vima 'lose a large portion of her power?' Where are you pulling that crap from? Did Nomi lose a large part of her power, too?

Did you even READ the DE and EE comics ? Vima say that here ability to sense and use the force slowly faded away after she killed the warlord that was responsible for the death of her daughter. Did you simply miss that ?
And that woman is your source for Leia being more powerful then Nomi ? Are we talking about the same Leia who had to catch a trained Jedi (Alema Rar) off-guard to kill her ? The same Leia who needed all her concentration to drop something on Palpatine's head in DE ? The same Leia who was fooled by Luke's force doppelganger ? Yes...she is a total powerhouse - hence Alema tells her that she is "too old to start being a real Jedi now", right ?

And once more: No proof those amulets are fool proof considering that blast was never used against another Jedi.

Does it matter ? The amulets give the user a better grasp on the Dark Side as stated when Aleema sees Ulic and Kun with their amulets for the first time. And if a casual blast can floor Nomi Sunrider I don't want to know what an aimed blast would do to other people.

Ignorance much? Ever heard of the Dark Jedi on Bpfassh Yoda slaughtered? There were multiple dark siders during Yoda's time, renegade Jedi, plain evil people, dark sects, Bane's order...and in dark Rendevous, there's a nice mention of Yoda killing Dark Siders before....seriously, what does 'Strongest foe the darkness had ever known' mean, especially as this was in regards to combat? Yoda's faced the darkness in quote, unquote 'legion', he's dealt with jedi who've turned dark, Dark Jedi uprising, the dark side in numerous guises...he's mastered all the arts of the Jedi and lightside and he's has centuries to become more and more powerful. Answer me: how much greater is the darkness than the light? How much stronger is the strongest Sith than the strongest, much older Jedi?

You call me ignorant and then feed me such a paragraph of idiocy ?
Please give me the quote where all those people were mentioned. Come on. Must be easy, huh ?

Fact: One of the best is one of the best and him being placed up there with Mace and Yoda defeats your assumption he's nothing special. And Vima on the PT council, yes, I'm sure that's the pinnacle of everything! Good lord, here we go...I think Vima knows what she's talking about with her ancestors more than you, considering she had no idea about what happened to Nima until it was too late because Neema only got out a message before her husband instantly had her executed. And on the PT council? Like Cin, Dooku, Qui...And it's even more amusing how you ignore Nomi instantly became a master with a saber after just grabbing it and she certainly didn't have Leia's potential. I trust the comic, Vima and Insider a lot more than your interpretation.

Oh great. As I said: Sidious is on one level with Mace, Yoda, Dooku, Anakin. Since Depa is Mace's equal: Add her too. Since Nick Gillard calls his own character uber - add him too. Since Obi-Wan was at least able to match Anakin: Add him. Since Kit Fisto was equal or above Obi-Wan in CD - add him too. Since Asajj put up nice fights against both Obi-Wan and Anakin...can we add her also ?

So...I now have 9 people now just for the PT era. And what makes you think that Kun would not be in their league being able to destroy 600 year old Jedi Masters in combat ? Right: Nothing. So what ?
And what does force potential have to do with fighting skills. Could TPM Anakin grap a saber and slaughter Yoda because having more potential ? No ? What a surprise. And give me PROOF that Nomi didn't have Leia's potential. There isn't so better not even try.

And I'm not "interpreting" things. I'm just handing you what is written down in the comics and in later sources.

I do have a source stating Kun used Makashi and it's calle dthe visual guide and the Fightsaber article in Insider, David West Reynolds wrote it, thanks...aand I'd love to see that Nick quote about Cin, to see if he was actually seriously, because the man's not stupid...especially as Anakin, y'know, killed Cin.

Wow. "The Visual Guide" ? Which ? One of those that only deals with the films ? Haha. And I have the Insider article - KUN ISN'T EVEN MENTIONED ! Thanks. And since we don't know the circumstances in which Cin was killed "Anakin killed him on his own" is a pretty damn stupid speculation. It was Anakin + a legion of Clone Troopers vs the people in the temple.

Actually, it's what the material directly says. Try again

Cool. Actually you are lying about things written in the source material or plain and simply ignore them. Way to debate, Lightsnake.

I can confirm what LS is saying.

Originally posted by Count Kent
I can confirm what LS is saying.

Oh, good. If you can confirm it then it must be true.

We see ten at the most important meeting the Sith council has ever known? Three of those Sith lords die on screen, at least another three die on planet, at least three are seen with Naga or being murdered by Massassi...and that leaves Naga. That just means KJA doesn't know what he's doing. Simus dead, Ludo, Dor, Horak dead? Shar Dakhan, and two other Sith lords on the planets dead...that's seven thus far. The Sith lord on Naga's personal ship, Naga himself, the Sith lords we see getting slaughtered by Massassi...of course, it's unfeasible random Sith declared themselves lords in the massive power void.

So? And people who had centuries to master the light would be damn powerful, and we've seen people who had 'centuries to master the dark side' get stomped into the ground. Just accept one thing: Age and experience just plain DO NOT MATTER. And when Kun ever tossed people who meant a damn around like ragdolls, get back to him...or froze an entire world...and isn't it incredible how the only thing that let him destroy the self declared powerless in his present state Nadd and the Sith Wyrm was an amulet with the blast he never used again? Even more amusing at how a pack of padawans defeated TWO of the greatest, most terrible sithspawn?

That's fascinating, and according to the ROTS novelization, Dooku was fighting seriously against Anakin when he realized Dooku was the finest Djem So master he'd ever seen.

Only said in the article that he drew power from Leia because he knew if he lost, Leia and her child would fall into Palpatine's hands and Luke would never allow that to happen.

Do I trust Ragnos who declared that Kun earned the title by reviving the Sith? I think I do.

Ulic stripped from the force? Ummm, no, they temporarily subdued him, that was it, he wasn't blocked until Nomi blasted him. And blame KJA's poor writing considering everyone just flaps their mouths until Vodo declares he'll stop Kun, without, y'know, trying to subdue Kun with the help of three other powerful Jedi with the same technique used on Ulic. That just proves the rest of them were young and inexperienced and didn't know what to do, doesn't show Vodo as a powerhouse whatsoever. And yes, Sylvar would NEVER be crying because her beloved father figure and Jedi Master was just SLICED IN HALF IN FRONT OF HER EYES and she just learned HER LOVER AND MATE TURNED TO THE DARK SIDE, no, Sylvar's obviously crying because she got pushed and not to the two subsequent intense grievous losses to her heart!

Hm, simple logic: Guy rushes three people head on...three people die. Who's better? Oh, right. Faster, better, stronger. End of story.

No, it's never said Palp wanted to kill Mace with the lightning. Yeah, nothing like that in the commentary. Especially considering a FORCE PUSH would've killed Mace there...nothing like that in the commentary, ROTS novel and Visual dictionary state otherwise. Sidious didn't 'already have Anakin over', he was on the hook, so Sidious clinched the deal, by forcing Anakin's hand. I'm not arguing Lucas, because Lucas never said a damn thing like this, in fact, he said usage of dark side power made Sidious deformed. Novelization states Anakin was already intensely conflicted and he acted impulsively which sealed his fate. He couldn't have Sidious dead and Sidious knew it.

The Visual Dictionaries? By David West Reynolds? And the Fightsaber article: Clearly stated, Kun is a user of Form II. I'll do better than a page number, here's a clear transcript of the forms and their users: http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php

Grievous kills B'dard, Flynn Kybo, T'chooka Doon...all of whom practically rush him, not to mention Adi Gallia, Soon Baytes, Jmmar, L'lacielo Sageon, Pablo Jill...

Sylvar and Crado impressive? Ood who acknowledges combat's not his skill? Odan "I stand around uselessly in a big battle" Urr...Kun fought Freedon Nadd? Didn't surprise him with an amulet when Nadd was gloating? Kun fought Mandalore?

I think you misunderstood: The comparisons are to Vima Sunrider, not old withered crone Vima, the one who cut herself off from the Force after she touched the Dark Side?...and by Dark Nest, twenty something years later, Leia hasn't fought at all since she killed Beldorian, so she's more than a bit rusty, considering she gains and loses power as the authors will....and everyone was fooled by Luke's doppleganger, droids and sensors were fooled by Luke's doppleganger.

When's a blast floor Nomi? Ulic raises it, it shines and someone yells "He's using a Sith Amulet! They're deadly! Since Kun never uses the blast again, we don't know if it can be blocked, or if it's infallible.

Bpfassh uprising? Thrawn trilogy, Tales. Volffe Karkko's uprising? Republic: Darkness, among others in the NeC, mentions in Courtship of Princess Leia, Children of the Jedi, Darksaber, character guides...the list is a tad extensive.

I'd love the context of what Nick said, if he wasn't joking around...considering Anakin casually slaughters Cin, Sidious butchers Obi, Mace manages to beat Depa while exhausted and injured, since Dooku steps over people supposedly mace's equals...by ROTS, people have improved, Kenobi for one. And according to Lucas, you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious, and Anakin if he weren't burnt, but that's it. I think Escape detailed a few nice things

The Ultimate Visual guide, it's just that...and as for Cin being killed by Anakin, along with Bene and Whie: the game, the novelization, the Order 66 article, possibly Dark Nest when Luke sees a hologram of Anakin killing a very skilled Jedi master..

Mmmhmm. Yes, I suppose something about Yoda defeating many Dark Jedi is complete hyperbole and untrue...and the idea that West Reynolds wrote that Kun uses form 2? Or the idea that Leia was as storng as Nomi...or even well known facts, such as Cin being killed by Anakin...and you still haven't answered: How muchs tronger are the Sith than the Jedi? Because without illusions they lost on three planets, it only took four Jedi to stop their assault on Coruscant and their stronger ancestors were crushed by the Jedi in the Hundred Years darkness, and considering the comic says inbreeding with the Sith watered down powerful Bloodlines...and mainly, I'm just setting out to deal with this irritating saying that Kun is so far above Yoda's level, when Yoda is the strongest Jedi master who ever lived up until ROTS....actually, something's occuring to me, Nai: What are we even arguing anymore? I think we've gotten sidetracked