Originally posted by Razielim
Didn't Palpatine sense Anakin from across the Galaxy? He could very well know his location when he's like, across the street.
Exactly.
Like I said, a lot of evidence points to Palpatine orchestrating the duel.
Consider:
- First and foremost, the man is a manipulator. Okay? He's been duping Mace and Yoda for decades, so I'm pretty damn sure that he could do it one final time.
- Palpatine, when necessary, will put his own life on the line. Like Lightsnake pointed out.
- Palpatine even encouraged Anakin to tell the Council, and praised him for his wisdom.
- As the script pointed out, the line that Palpatine's voice-over speaks is not a line that he told Anakin in the office. Coupled with the fact that, as Razielim pointed out - Palpatine can sense Anakin, and that Force-users can communicate thoughts through the Force - it makes perfect sense that Palpatine was trying to goad Anakin into returning to his office.
- Another big point: Notice that as Palpatine and Mace are fighting, most of the fight is Palpatine putting Mace on the defensive, forcing Mace out of the secondary office into the main one. Especially considering how Mace is an extremely aggressive duelist, there must be a reason.
- Another big point: Notice that Palpatine does not actively use his offensive Force powers. It has been established that Palpatine > Mace in the Force. So, why not use it? Hmm? Especially for a guy who - in the case of the other three Jedi he fought in that office - has no trouble about quickly ending a fight?
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
And the ultimate evidence:GL ----> Sidious "pretended to lose his power."
I dont see how you can argue with this proof, GL makes it plain that Sidious wasnt giving it his all.
In all fairness, everyone knows that. Lucas was referring, in that statement, that Palpatine was pretending when he stopped trying to electrocute Mace.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fine, this is just a response, to the actual issue, Luke's team wins easily, but if were Kun himself? Butchered. I'm simply tired of people claiming he's on another level that just about any Jedi. And Nai? Here's a question: How much stronger are the Sith than the Jedi exactly? I'm not saying Yoda would beat anyone easily, but he'd win in the end.
LOL, Lightsnake. Now you are changing the topic. I never said that Kun on his own would be able to take down Yoda and Sidious simultaneously. Hell...a great while back I even argued that Yoda on his own would possibly able to take down Kun in a lightsaber fight. The point was that Kun might be able to defeat each of them individually - at least you won't have an "easy fight" here for Sidious or Yoda.
Not every Sith Lord is a member of the council? Since when? When's that even implied?
KotoR games: They mentioned 20 Sith Lords being present at Ragnos funeral, when only 10 are belonging to the council. Next indication is FotSE when the "remaining" Sith Lords took the title away from Sadow and gave it to Kressh. Horak-Mul, Dor Gal-Ram and Simus were dead at this point, Sadow and Shar Dakhan were fighting in the war
Beldarian the Splendid. Beaten by Leia mano a mano. And he'd spent centuries mastering the darkside. And Beldarian was kept young thanks to Dzym, and much larger, stronger and faster than other hutts, succumbing to none of the bloated corpulence they did...and his counterpart on the planet who was killed by Luke.
First: His name is Baldorian. Second: He fell to the Dark Side after the Jedi purge and was killed in 13 ABY meaning he spent 32 years at max studying the Dark Side and not "centuries".
Oh, yeah, Volfe Karkko, killed one on one with Quin Vos.
And you just forgot that the guy was kept in a suspended animation over centuries so he didn't have much time to "learn" about the Dark Side, right ?
Darth Rivan, over a thousand years old?
And because we know nothing about his death except the fact that he died due to betrayal from his own side we must assume that he was killed by a Jedi in a one vs one confrontation, right ?
The dark Underlord, killed by Jedi Master Murtauggh?
The guy which age is unknown and who only was defeated because getting betrayed by his own underlings ?
Why should I 'forget' the article? Luke drawing strength from someone would just be using his resources. And because the original author doesn't write the story, doesn't make it less valid if it's approved by LFL. And yes, Luke was only stated to be a titan, incredibly powerful with both force and saber...oh, and a divinity of the light. Nope, no power.
Luke drawing strength from his sister = using his own resources ? Logic ? And it's nice how such statements account for Luke when you always try to argue them if being used to descripe people not being Sidious. Really..."frightening grasp on the Dark Side", "tremendous strength", "titanic force powers", "making people look like children", "prodigy".
"Because of you the Sith will never die?" Mmmhmm, and what does that mean? And considering Kun failed absolutely miserably, it seems Ragnos was a bit premature.
Oh yes...Kun failed...like every other Sith Lord we have seen so far. Hmm...
Proof Ulic couldn't use the Force?
Kun had to restore his power later - so at this point he couldn't use the force and he was still unarmed. And you really think they would place Ulic in the Senate while he had access to his force powers ?
The Krath had been around for what, months? Yeah, that's great, especially since the moments they faced real opponents, they got wiped out. And Sylvar was really frozen, killing those Massassi with her claws.
Ommin and Amanoa have been around for decades, the Dark Side on Onderon was there for centuries. The Guards of Isis basically fought against the Beast Riders during their entire lifetime and the Mandalorians are just an entire species which society is based on fighting. And the people who confronted all this are "inexperienced" ?
And maybe KJA could show Kun actually do something large scale and impressive that hasn't been exceeded...of course, that'd require KJA be a good, competent author, so perhaps I'm asking for too much. Likewise, how many times do Yoda, Luke and Palp need to be described to a level above just about anyone else until you accept it. I'll accept Kun's superiority to the Jedi of those age, no reason why he's superior to people from the Golden Age of the Jedi.
Yes...freezing the entire Senate is of course nothing special. Undergoing a ritual which goal it was to "let his spirit run rampant across the galaxy" and just needed the entire Jedi order over Yavin 4 to stop Kun isn't impressive too. Knocking off Sith Witches for minutes with a single force attack ? Nothing special. Destroying century old Jedi masters ? No problemo.
And why Kun should be superior to people from the "Golden Age of the Jedi" ? Let's see: He has the complete knowledge of one of the 4 most powerful Dark Siders from the "Golden Age of the Sith", plus knowledge from Ossus that was lost to the Jedi order. Sadow's knowledge, which Kun had access to contained the ability to create new bodies (according to Nadd), meaning to create life - an ability only attributed again to Darth Plagueis but not archieved by Sidious - at least not during the PT time.
Then, according to your own sources, he's a master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat" when the only other known practioner of these style, Dooku, was able to defeat virtually anybody else in lightsaber combat except Yoda and Anakin + possibly Mace.
Of course, compared to Dooku, he has the slight advantage to have more force powers (as displayed when freezing the entire Senate), possessing two "deadly" Sith amulets and a unique weapon never seen before and never used again (one-handed double-blade lightsaber).
Hmmm..."you have to be Mace or Yoda to contend with Sidious." Right. Mmhmm. What's Saesee's excuse? Or Kit's? Neither needed 'large space'. Just accept it: Sidious was superior to all three, is a 'nine' in saber combat, right with Yoda and Ani. Yes, what are Agen's accomplishments? Sidious was smarter, faster and therefore he was better and would kill any of those three in an open area.
Dude. I basically said that. But I doubt he would take out all three at once in an open area when not "jumping" them and being able to kill two of them before they even react. As I said: Fisto on his own was equal or even above Obi-Wan and I doubt he had become worse during the Clone War. Of course Sidious would kill them individually - but not that fast and not that easily in an open area.
I think Escape took care of your definition of 'overpowered'. According to the novelization? Sidious dropped his speed and Mace's shatterpoint ability allowed him to triumph. When Mace is doing all he can with one attack, he's really gonna be able to defend himself from Sidious...and given we know of the force mask ability, Palpatine has been shown switching between faces before and undergoing a ritual to give himself the mask. And of course, that his clones look exactly the same...does Palp blast himself in the face for cosmetics? Nope, nothing about Sidious failing to kill Mace with the force....yeah, especially as they say use of Dark Side power turns him to the empire...and isn't it strange how lightning changes your teeth and eyes? And You ignore the part where Lucas says Sidious is faking being weak and this is the point where Anakin turns and wants him to go on trial, which forces his hand.
And even after the commentary, it's been totally inconclusive, with any sources on the matter supporting either theory.
You are again trying to argue against Lucas direct words. The novel is the interpretation of the author. This is retconned by Lucas OWN interpretation of the things happening. Period. Sidious wanted to kill Mace and failed. And it's damn obvious that the "faking" refers to the part of the scene which happens after Sidious initial wave of force lightning which mace deflected back in his face.
His clones don't matter. DE was written LONG before ROTS came out and again the words of the movie producer overwrite prior material. You want an "in universe" explanation: Sidious clones weren't able to host the same amounts of power his original body could take.
Yes, Anakin wanted Sidious to go on trial. You get the point here ? The point is that Mace would have killed Sidious without Anakin's intervention. This is only logical because we see him basically killing himself when Mace deflects his own force lightning back at him and he was unarmed.
I trust the article: Kun used form II, period. And Yoda's countered it before and sent Dooku running with his tail between his legs. And Yoda's the strongest Jedi master who's ever lived up to that point. And stop avoiding the question: Either Yoda's above Kun or the Sith are incredibly above the Jedi and thus above someone with nine hundred years experience and more power than any other Sith has ever faced. And Yoda's had time to become as strong as he did, so he's got a bit more experience, hm?
Excuse me. Do you want to argue your own arguments now ? I thought "experience doesn't matter" - so either it doesn't matter how old Yoda was or it does. Decide yourself.
And the point with Yoda is his selflimitation due to the Jedi code - something that Sith doesn't have. I'm pretty sure a "Dark Side" Yoda would obliterate pretty much anybody else. The point is that Kun can use all kind of instakill attacks or aggressive force powers that Yoda won't use giving him some kind of advantage in this category. And he force choked a 1000 year old Jedi Master to death (at least it looks like that) and destroyed a 600 year old Jedi Master in a duel twice.
Because A>B, A will automatically>C, right? If Kun didn't fight Mandalore, shut your mouth on the example.
No. The point is that it's stated explicit that Ulic and Kun couldn't gain an advantage against the other in lightsaber combat because they both were master duellists. Hence Kun would be able to defeat Mandalore in melee combat too. Not that this even matters because Lucas himself dictated that Jedi are invincible in one on one melee combat situations (unless being confronted with another lightsaber wielder) and there is no example for a Jedi getting outduelled that way.
"Leia has natural abilities like my ancestor Vima Sunrider!" And Power of the Jedi, "Leia achieved the power of Jedi masters from long ago, such as Nomi and Vima Sunrider." ...or is that hyperbole?
The quotes are talking about POTENTIAL, Lightsnake. Of course Leia might very well have a potential on the level of all former Jedi Masters (and even above that) if you consider what her twinbrother Luke is able to do. The point is that she didn't have much TRAINING and EXPERIENCE. She spent most of her time with politics and his force training was very limited. Do you really want to compare that to people who did receive training over months / years when Leia (I guess that was mentioned somewhere) spent 2 hours a day at max with training ?
Trained Jedi? There wasn't one master among that group. I'd be surprised if Nomi had more than a few years. Max. And that's great, now let's see a Sith amulet used on someone ready and expecting it.
Nomi became the head of the Jedi Order despite the fact that somebody like Thon who exceeded all other people in the comics in terms of force knowledge was still around. People keep mentioning her vast potential and abilities for the entire time. She receives knowledge of force techniques ("wall of light", "battle meditation"😉 that are very uncommon among her fellow people. So she is something special. And this is done in some months (maybe some years) of time.
Why would he be talking about only the people in Sidious's time and not up to that point? Luke wasn't born yet, we know Yoda's the strongest Jedi ever and Mace is one of the best duelists ever in the order, so...and what's hard to understand about 'Golden Age?'
Why would the guy who "doesn't get involved too much" in the EU even think of people outside his movie universe at this point ? And "Golden Age" of an order of peacekeepers doesn't naturally mean that their fighting abilities reached their highest point. It pretty much contradicts the idea of a "Golden Age of the Jedi" to assume something like that.
Fascinating. Palpatine and Luke have created illusionary fleets to terrify Republic forces into surrender.
Yes...and they had how many trained force users on their level against them ? Right...
And if the Jedi outnumbered the Dark Jedi, wouldn't have taken a hundred years to beat them.
And because the Jedi outnumbered the Sith 5000 to 1 in times of TPM then Sith weren't instantly destroyed ? Stop drawing conclusions like that, Lightsnake.
And we see Memit Nadill dueling the Sith Lord on Coruscant, a Jedi inspecting one Sith Lord's corpse, and Shar Dakhan from Ooroo's sacrifice. And...six Jedi fighting. Total, that's great. Well, I suppose we can count Jori, so that's seven. Really poor Sith if they don't have any contingencies and get destroyed once the illusions are gone.
And Yoda's the strongest enemy of the dark side, ever...yeah, that makes him stronger than the others
Yes of course...only the Jedi we see fighting are involved in the battles. Of course they won't care about the Republics capital being attacked or about Empress Teta being brought down. And now Sith Lords do exists outside the Sith Council ?
Easy? No. However, Kun would lose, even if not with a saber, than with the force. And you still haven't answered the question: How much stronger are the Sith than the Jedi if Exar can even take on Yoda in a level close to even? Assuming Exar's not stronger than the Ancients, even though KJA seems to believe he is-have I mentioned KJA's a terrible author?
FotSE? Ludo just mentions he took the title, that was it. Though, yes, you've proven there were other Sith Lords, I submit there.
His name is Beldorian and he'd been on Nam Chorios...hundreds of years, according to the NEC, considering he set himself up as a petty dictator there for quite some time. Hell, it;'s even implied he was studying the darkside when he was a Jedi and even hinted he personally knew Thon.
You mean in between the time Karkko steadily increased his power and fed on the energies of the other Anzati?
He was killed by a Jedi thanks to betrayal from his side, Rivan was. Good enough for me, considering he was over a millenia old. And there's also Kaox Krul and the Dark Underlord.
Oh, as opposed to Sidious being the manifestation of the darkside, darkness beyond darkness, a black hole of the force, possessing terrifying and incredible powers, being described as a 'titan,', a 'divinity,', 'godlike', supremely powerful, etc? Yeah, mmhmm. And yeah, Luke can pull strength from people spiritually or literally, it emans he's using what he has. The reason he won was because he had Leia and her son to fight for and that's quoted.
Most Sith Lords don't get branded like Kun and given some place in a grand Sithy scheme of things. Kun's failure is even more miserable considering he ruled for what, three years? Did he establish an empire like Pall's group? Did he wipe out the Jedi Order like Sidious? Did he take most of the galaxy like Ruin's order?
The wall of light was temporary! Saying 'Kun had to restore his power?' Unfounded, unproven, totally ludicrous assertion considering no Jedi knew how to undo the technique! Ulic had been stopped before and the people right there, when Ulic was unarmed and hardly even resisting? Yeah, Vodo wouldn't hesitate to kill him and Ulic knew that. The wall of light was temporary, meaning Kun did nothing. Case closed, and all said light was described to do was imprison Ulic...and did Kun or Ulic undo his manacles? And Ulic doesn't even take the trial seriously, he simply seems to be waiting for Exar as he says: "About time, Exar Kun!" And he tells Nomi not to force him to hurt her...not the words of a guy with his powers still.
That would be because Nadd's descendants were Sith magicians. Nadd himself had only recently been called back by Ommin. And the KRath were Onderonians? News to me. The Krath were inexperienced, spoiled kids.
Kun froze the senate? Wonderful, Palpatine froze a world. That ritual? Been done before, and the people who did it? Didn't NEED a ritual. In fact, according to Kun himself, he screwed up by preserving his spirit within the temple walls and thus trapping himself. Destroying centuries old Jedi masters? Been done. And needing the entire Order? Prove it. They bROGUHT the Entire order and that's just plains trategy. Yes, the entire order was needed to stop Kun...and his Brotherhood, the Krath, the Mandos, the Massassi species, the Terentateks, the battle hydras...yes, they were just there for Kun alone and it wasn't massive overkill if Kun was alone. And that's fascinating. The Golden Age of the JEdi is still the Golden Age of the Jedi. And 'creating clone bodies' is creating life? And Dooku was described as nearly on Yoda's level so he wasn't a typical Sith or Jedi master. Especially considering makashi is weak against Djem So. Would Kun be destroyed by a Djem So user then? I'd put the council members of a golden age of powerful Jedi, counted among some of the strongest and best duelists the order ever produced as well above the archaic Jedi of old....and a double bladed lightsaber is unique? they were mass produced in about forty years.
Fine, no argument then.
Except 'overpowered' could be taken so many ways. Was he giving his all? Was he holding back? Escape's asked you to respond to what he said on the matter because he brought it up rather well. There's nothing that contradicts the novel either, even by the DEFINITION of overpowered.
if Anakin wasn't there, Sidious would have unleashed his full power in the force and Mace'd be dead. He trusted and KNEW Anakin would react and that's plain and simple. Once more: Sidious's shatterpoint? Trust of Anakin. Complete and utter faith in him. And basically killing himself? He stands with ZERO trace of exertion, and in the novelization, he later says 'The face of Sidious shall serve.' And from Sidious's own POV, he remembers that not even Mace Windu was able to truly defeat him and Luke was the only time he had ever been truly defeated. The facts remain though: We know Sidious's clones look exactly like his emperor form, and we know fo the force mask which can be stripped away or dropped, and we've seen in a story that was included to canon thanks to the Visual Guide, that Sidious can alter his face. Not only that, Sidious had another lightsaber on him.
Hey, you're the one arguing age and experience here, when it's been shown Talent and power>Experience quite a bit. Yoda limits himself, so? He doesn't let himself fall to the dark side, so? And when Kun uses those attacks, Yoda will simply block them, considering he's mastered pretty much every lightside power.
And Odan wasn't choked, if he were choked, he wouldn't be able to monologue as he died.
Aurra Sing's killed Jedi mano a mano and she's hardly one herself. She barely even uses the Force.
The quotes say Leia has the natural power and abilities of old crone Vima's ancestors. I'm not arguing LEia's powers dimished with misuse, I'm saying in DE, in raw power, she was rather impressive. Hell, Nomi herself devoted herself almost completely to politics. When was it said Nomi was the head of the Order? In Shadows and Light we see the council and enclave and in Redemption, we see Nomi as the spokeswoman...and Thon's a natural recluse. Thing is, though, Nomi had very little training or experience when she became a sudden powerhouse and this could easily apply to Jedi with just as much, if not more potential.
Why wouldn't it? And in this Golden Age, the Jedi are having about six or seven of the best warriors the order had seen, Mace, whom you described as the greatest saber prodigy, Yoda, the strongest Jedi master ever, anakin the Chosen One, Obi-wan, the undisputed master of Soresu...
The moment Aleema had another trained force user against her, her track record isn't so good there. Nomi's defeated her illusions twice, which is a bit different than Doppleganger, especially when you're dealing with someone you know's an illusionist and deduced she had to be using illusions.
Unlike the Sith in TPM, the Dark Jedi on Corbos didn't have the luxury of being fought extinct and Sidious and Maul weren't engaging the Jedi in a deadly conflict that divided the order and lasted a century. Hell, Corbos was the deciding battle of the war, it's not that much a stretch to say the Dark Jedi on Corbos at least rivaled their former masters, especially when they were pulling out creatures like the Leviathans
The comic itself says there are only a few Jedi, let by Memit Nadill...and only Odan and Ooroo were sent to Kirrek. And we only see three others arriving besides Memit. I chalk it up to KJA not knowing what the hell he's doing.
Originally posted by Escape81
- When Palpatine revealed himself to Anakin in his office, Anakin told him that he would inform the Jedi Council to Palpatine's true identity. Notice that Palpatine did not object - and even complimented him on his wisdom.
Because, in all his arrogance - if there was an enemy he feared it would have been Yoda who wasn't on the planet - he still told Anakin to be aware of the Jedi's motivation before revealing his identity to them. So he basically told Anakin that he should think before doing anything else. It's not that he didn't care about having Council Members walking into his office and confronting them.
- When Anakin informs Mace of Palpatine's identity, Mace sends him to wait in the Jedi Council chambers until he and his entourage have returned from their confrontation with Palpatine.
Yes. So what ?
- While Anakin is sitting in the Chambers, Palpatine's voice is overheard during the scene. People have often dismissed that as Anakin, repeatign Palpatine's words. Except here's the kicker! The words that Palpatine says in that scene weren't said when Anakin confronted him in his office. So, he couldn't have repeated anything.My conclusion: Palpatine sent him a message through the Force.
There. Palpatine's voice over was not a repeat of one of his lines that he fed to Anakin in their confrontation in his office. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that Palpatine sent him that message with the sole intent of bringing Anakin back to his office, to confront Mace Windu.
Excuse me. But he didn't tell Anakin to come back to his office and IF he had to do something like this he knew that the Jedi (respective Mace Windu) could destroy him.
Which means that Palpatine's loss to Mace could very well have been a fake.
Just stop this speculation. I totally destroyed DarthSith19 in an argument about this topic.
a) Sidious had no reason to fake the saber fight because Anakin wasn't able to see it. If he wanted to fake that he would have controlled this and then threw his saber away shortly before Anakin was able to see them. He didn't do it because he was losing the swordfight.
b) There are three situations where Mace could easily have killed Sidious. One time Sidious turns around and has his sword down on his side while Mace is ready to strike him down - and Mace waits until Sidious has his saber back up. Then the situation where Sidious goes down on his knees (a little backward slash and his head would have been gone) and of course the situation where Mace had him disarmed.
c) You can't fake getting your saber kicked out of you hand. That is impossible. Sorry.
d) He wanted to kill Mace with his first wave of lightning. This is directly stated by Lucas and he even says "No. You have lost. Die !" when unleashing this wave. So why would he fake the lightsaber duel just to try and destroy Mace using the force ? It's senseless. And this makes the entire "he faked it" idea senseless. Period.