Originally posted by Motoko Samawrong
Yeah, and the points are all the same:-Vodo wasn't trying as hard as Kun.
-Kun wasn't trying to turn Vodo.
-How does the Darkside make you more proficient in dueling?
-Blah, and blahAnyways, yes I do suppose we can drop the insults, I do apologize for that, my patience isn't at the top of the list. Which is still no excuse, but meh. We'll have to continue this later, I'm going out for the night.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok, direct statements by source material and novels is 'hyperbole?'
Phew...
Statements in novels if not placed by the omnicient narrator can very well be hyperboles and as you fail to provide quotes and context I don't see why we should take them serious.
No, sorry, all those are are facts. The facts say that is what Yoda is, I buy it. What's hyperbole ABOUT it? It's clear cut statements, so if you pull this hyperbole bullshit, explain why the official sources and writers are wrong, tell me how 'Yoda was the strongest' is an exagerration besides going against your opinion.
He might be the strongest up to that point (ROTS). The point is that you don't have anything to compare Yoda to Vodo or Odan. He was stronger ? How much stronger ?
All we know is that there wasn't a single Jedi able to stop Kun despite of the fact that the most powerful people in the TOTJ era tried. Even if Yoda is more powerful then them - and even if he's the better combatant (and there is a difference between those points) - how does that proof that he can defeat Kun ? It only says that he does have a better chance then the people Kun destroyed. Would he defeat Kun in a duel ? It's possible but I'm far away from saying that Yoda win this for sure. And if ROTS Yoda can't do it then ROTS Sidious can't either which doesn't even matter because Luke can tool his opponent faster then the other one would be able to deal with Kun (if they can do it)...
Though, Sidious is an exceptional duelist...
Lmao. Since when ? Everytime I saw him drawing his lightsaber he lost the fight. That's hardly being an "exceptional duellist". How would you call somebody who loses two out of two matches - if you add DE he lost 3 out of 4. Man. What an exceptional duelist.
What is it you want to base that statement on - the fact that he jumped 4 Jedi who didn't have any space to manouver and killed 3 of them while the last one put him on his ass ?
Or do you want to tell me know that Luke in less then 10 years of training had developed a greater lightsaber skill then Mace Windu - the greatest lightsaber prodigy ever - could do in 50 years ?
Mace was one of the best fighters the Order ever produced, and he took out three more of the best in seconds. And Luke was described as having exceptional power, in the force and with a saber.
Again: More powerful and better with a lightsaber compared to Mace Windu ? You must be joking. We have seen that even 25 years of training difference make the guy with the highest potential ever seen (Anakin) equal to Obi-Wan (who was nearly sorted out of the temple because of his lacking force potential). Yet they stalemated in their force contest. So even if Luke has a greater force potential then Mace - the training time difference would enable Mace to defeat Luke (in his DE version).
And if Sidious isn't still better than that - how would he be able to defeat another lightsaber prodigy with more actual training than Luke did receive, more duell experience and greater force powers - not to mention the amulet blasts...? We're still talking about ROTS Sidious here
And what's backing up Vodo's combatanant status exactly? We only ever saw him...fight Kun twice? Anything else?
His age, his experience, the students he trained and his weapon of choice. If you don't have exceptional combat skills - would you go and confront people who are known for their combat skills and armed with lightsabers using a stick ? Do you really think the guy who seems to be superior to anybody else running arround in the comics when it comes to melee combat (including Ulic, Nomi and their comrades - when Ulic and Nomi are clearly prodigies on their own) with Kun being the only exception doesn't have any combat skills ?
They are by an omniscient narrarator in all cases.
And Yoda, being far more willing to kill Kun, far faster and as a whole just plain better than the above, by virtue of aforementioned quotes in novel and sourcebook, all aforementioned by narrarator as well as by virtue of knowing the strongest techniques of the Jedi...and KJA did quite a bad job of making his Jedi 'powerful' since Odan was nothing but ineffective and Vodo? Arca? Yeah, just one quote from a sourcebook put Yoda leaps and bounds above the both of them, especially as unlike them, we know Yoda's triumps over darkness were described as 'legion'
In Insider, it was said, in story context, that Sidious was perhaps one of the greatest duelists who ever lived and he killed three of the best Jedi duelists who ever lived in seconds, on an article in saber combat. And Maul's description of him in Shadow Hunter?
And yeah, Luke's skill by DE? Already beyond that of what most Jedi surpass.
And once again, you backpedal: Age, experience? Means little. As we've seen proven time and time again. When we see the PT Jedi bring down star ships and war machines with the Force alone, or exterminate one of the best black ops teams in the galaxy with a single saber throw, as well as Luke's saber skills being described as by that point incredible and exceptional and him having become a master duelist seemingly on his own, when there's a good amount of evidence to suggest that Anakin could indeed have beaten Mace?
Oh, Vodo's 'age' means something? Ood was older. His experience means a thing? T'ra Saa could own him then. And Vodo, by his own admission didn't want to hurt or fight Kun, so fighting with a stick is a bit counterproductive. And he 'seems' superior to those guys? Since when? When did Vodo do anything except lose to Kun in duels? And as for those 'fifty plus years of experience', we've seen kids with several years or even weeks worth of training beat people like Shadowspawn or Jerec.
I have to agree with Nai that I do not see Yoda or Sidious being able to win this fight. I don't see them having a true chance.
However, Nai, I do grow tired of the excuse that 'Sidious jumped the four Jedi attempting to kill him'. Don't feed me that crap. They entered the building armed with the knowledge that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, and that he would most likely attack them. Palpatine stood up, ignited his weapon, and even tossed off a one liner:
"So it's treason then."
Then, he jumped.
I'm really tired of you and everyone else who says "Oh Em Gee, he just surprised them!!!11".
No, he was just better.
Yoda and Sidious don't have a chance, but I'm saying if it were just Kun, the fight'd be over. DN Luke is about the most overpowered person in all of SW.
And yeah, Agen, Saesee and Kit've all been surprised before, they're veteran warriors, outright stated to be four of the best duelists the Jedi order had ever produced and were facing Palp, sabers drawn...even if they were 'surprised', it shows Palp is better
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Dident Palaptine use a force scream of some sort? And catch them offguard?
Um . . .
They entered Palpatine's office. Mace and Palpatine engage in short conversation.
Mace says: You're under arrest.
Palpatine says: I am the Senate.
Mace says: Not yet.
Palpatine then 'stands up' and looks at them. Then, he twists his wrist, and out pops a lightsaber hilt. He ignites the blade and says:
"So it's treason, then".
Then, he screams and flies into the air.
Knowing that they were 'aware' that he was a Sith Lord, and how he took his time, that proves that they were NOT caught off guard or surprised.
Well, his force scream could have confused them or shut down their focus/concentration for a few seconds. I dont know what force scream does exactly, but thats my assumprion.
Yes, but i'm not sure the jedi "knew" he was going to lunge foward and scream. And I believe one of the jedi were using telepathy and trying to figure out what palpatine was going to attempt but could not find out because the dark side clouded it. I cant remember where I read this..
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Well, his force scream could have confused them or shut down their focus/concentration for a few seconds. I dont know what force scream does exactly, but thats my assumprion.Yes, but i'm not sure the jedi "knew" he was going to lunge foward and scream. And I believe one of the jedi were using telepathy and trying to figure out what palpatine was going to attempt but could not find out because the dark side clouded it. I cant remember where I read this..
You read it in the novelization.
The point is, the Jedi were prepared to face Sidious. They knew his identity, they outnumbered him, they knew he might attack, and he ignited his weapon and attacked several seconds later.
Not being able to predict his exact move isn't a show of being caught off guard. If that is the case, then 'all' duels have parts where one of the combatants is caught off guard. That means:
- Anakin caught Count Dooku off guard when he decapitated him.
- Obi-Wan caught Grievous off guard when he disarmed him.
- Yoda caught the stormtroopers off guard when he fought them.
- Obi-Wan caught Anakin off guard when he de-limbed him.
The point is - they knew that Sidious was going to attack them. The reason that Agen, Tinn, and Fisto were beaten is a simple one. Sidious was the better fighter.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
They are by an omniscient narrarator in all cases.
Omniscient like the historian writing the NEC ?
And Yoda, being far more willing to kill Kun, far faster and as a whole just plain better than the above, by virtue of aforementioned quotes in novel and sourcebook, all aforementioned by narrarator as well as by virtue of knowing the strongest techniques of the Jedi...and KJA did quite a bad job of making his Jedi 'powerful' since Odan was nothing but ineffective and Vodo? Arca? Yeah, just one quote from a sourcebook put Yoda leaps and bounds above the both of them, especially as unlike them, we know Yoda's triumps over darkness were described as 'legion'
How did Yoda exactly "triumph" over the Dark Side ? As far as we know (now) he didn't fight Sith for 1,000 years, maybe Dark Jedi but he would be superior to them per definitionem as he was the strongest force user and best duellist during his lifetime. So what "triumps" are you talking about ? Something that comes close to Odan who stipped Sith Lords from the force ? Or Thon who survived a female Sith exterminating the life on an entire planet ? Or Ood Bnar who could use the force energy of a planet to survive a supernova ?
The point is: Yoda might be better then them but I doubt he's far above them since they all had a quite nice amount of time to study the force and practice combat (in Odan's and Odd's case even more time then Yoda had).
In Insider, it was said, in story context, that Sidious was perhaps one of the greatest duelists who ever lived and he killed three of the best Jedi duelists who ever lived in seconds, on an article in saber combat. And Maul's description of him in Shadow Hunter?
Since when is the Insider a canon source, hmm ? I will explain the "he killed three Jedi thing" later.
And yeah, Luke's skill by DE? Already beyond that of what most Jedi surpass.
Logic anybody ?
And once again, you backpedal: Age, experience? Means little. As we've seen proven time and time again. When we see the PT Jedi bring down star ships and war machines with the Force alone, or exterminate one of the best black ops teams in the galaxy with a single saber throw, as well as Luke's saber skills being described as by that point incredible and exceptional and him having become a master duelist seemingly on his own, when there's a good amount of evidence to suggest that Anakin could indeed have beaten Mace?
Anakin could have beaten Mace ? Hahaha. He wasn't able to beat Kenobi. He wasn't able to beat Sidious by ROTS which he basically acknowledges himself. So how would he have been able to beat Mace Windu ? And I know that Luke is a prodigy in terms of saber combat...more than Mace Windu who developed his own style in the age of 13 and practiced it for almost 4 decades ? Did you read Shatterpoint ? Did you watch the movies ? Did you see the CW Cartoons ? Mace is pretty much uber when it comes to combat situations.
Oh, Vodo's 'age' means something? Ood was older. His experience means a thing? T'ra Saa could own him then. And Vodo, by his own admission didn't want to hurt or fight Kun, so fighting with a stick is a bit counterproductive. And he 'seems' superior to those guys? Since when? When did Vodo do anything except lose to Kun in duels? And as for those 'fifty plus years of experience', we've seen kids with several years or even weeks worth of training beat people like Shadowspawn or Jerec.
Lmao. Vodo didn't want to fight or hurt Kun ? Is this why he enters the Senate before their last duell saying that he will kill Ulic but first he has to stop Exar ? Funny...And yes he seems to be superior to the people who didn't try to attack Ulic or Kun for the single reason that he is the only person in the comics who managed to outduel Kun (in their first fight) or come close enough to duel Kun (watch Sylvar getting tossed arround like a ragdoll, Cay getting pwned by Kun's inferior Ulic, Nomi getting put on the ground by Ulic - and so on).
And now for the great killing of three Jedi Master (also @Escape81):
Do you two have any idea about armed combat ? I don't want to say that Sidious "caught them offguard" because that would be stupid but he utilized their lack of space and the fact that they were hindering each other.
First he jumped them which was clearly a surprise action even if he pulled his lightsaber out before. And then the lack of space started working:
a) Agen (form IV user) and Mace (form VII) user didn't have the space to use their fighting styles which are both based on quite wide swings.
b) When he stabbed Agen, Mace and Kit couldn't place a hit on him because he used Agen as a sort of "shield" while Mr. Tiin displayed the reaction time of a dead starfish and doesn't even move his saber before being cut down.
c) He then puts himself in a position which makes it impossible for Kit and Mace to hit him without risking to strike down eachother and then kills Kit.
And then when Windu finally has the space needed he overpowers Sidious and puts him on his ass. And from that action you want to tell me that Sidious is an uber duellist ? He clearly benefited from the circumstances / the situation. We have seen that Mace on his own was enough to defeat him. We know that Kit was on par or even better than Kenobi (Cestus Deception) and technically he should have lasted longer than 10 seconds against Sidious on his own. Agen and Saesee look like idiots here even though they both survived Geonosis which technically should mean that they are not that weak in terms of combat - but the scene makes them look like inexperienced wannabe-lightsaber-duellists.
Of course I know how Maul descriped Sidious but:
a) Maul is Sidious slave and his fanboy number one - thus a fallible source
b) Maul got his ass handed to Padawan Kenobi. Even if this was only due to his arrogance - if Kenobi can utilize that I'm pretty sure Sidious won't have any problems to do this either.
So why should we put ROTS Sidious above a lightsaber prodigy like Exar Kun when it comes to lightsaber duelling when Kun won all confrontations with Jedi Master we have seen while Sidious always lost in lightsaber combat ? If Sidious was a lightsaber prodigy he shouldn't have lost against Mace, Yoda and DE Luke (in the last case in a younger body and equipped with greater force powers) but all that happened. And I personally think that is the case because of Sidious philosophy and motivation. His motivation is power and his philosophy is to reach that goal by deception, manipulation but not through direct confrontation. And what need does somebody have to be a good fighter when his main "weapon of choice" is "stealth" or pulling the strings behind the scenes ? Sidious might possess exceptional force knowledge and power but I doubt that he is really skilled in terms of duelling - it just doesn't fit his personality and his fight against the 4 Jedi in his office (as I personally see it) was rather a display of his tactical abilities than a proof for his combat skills.
No, just omniscient. Not up for debate, it's a narrarator and these ain't chronologies.
Yeah, you mean the Sith Lords who were all dead? Odan stripped Sith from a force, proof they were anything more than Massassi? And Yoda IS above them and yes, it's hinted he's had encounters with the Sith, something to do with the Rule of Two. And it puts Yoda square above the Jedi who were actually defeating Ancient Sith, and given it's the 'greatest foe the darkness had ever known'...how much greater than the light IS this darkness? Since Yoda was 'the most powerful force of light', with a grasp of the force and the light few ever receive...
Since when is Insider's information on the subjects canon? See: History of the Mandalorians, the story of General Grievous...since it's written by actual Star Wars authors, I buy it.
Considering it says Luke's skill has already surpassed most Jedi, I'd say there's plenty logic.
Even Mace acknowledged Obi-wan as the ultimate master of Soresu. Proof Mace invented Vaapad at thirteen? And Luke's not uber at combat situations, even then? Seriously...Anakin too. Did you watch the cartoons? See Anakin crush Dooku? And before you even try it: There's nothing to suggest Dooku held back. In fact, almost every source on the matter was Dooku realizing he had to fight seriously or Palpatine telling him to fight to the fullest and if Ani died, he wasn't worthy. Anakin also had the issue of having his mind fogged by anger and facing a guy who TRAINED him how to fight, the novelization even said Obi-wan knew all of Anakin's moves like they were his own.
Who do I believe, Nai? Vodo, whose own spirit actually said he didn't want to fight or hurt Kun and was there to turn him back to the light or someone else? And Kun didn't want to fight Sylvar at any one time, that he fought Vodo meant nothing, just a gesture from apprentice to master. And Oh, yeah, Cay REALLY wanted to fight Ulic seriously, all the 'Ulic, don't make me! I love you!" Real savage battle.
Ah, so Sidious utilized the environment and his brain, when the others could've come to the other's aid, dodged, counterattacked the damn thrust or slash? Not many forms involved there. And of course the idea that Palpatine held back and allowed himself to be overpowered doesn't enter into here, especially considering what Mace saw as his shatterpoint and what the Ultimate Visual Gudie had to say.
Oh, come on...Maul doesn't give any credit where it's not due he describes Sidious's abilities, and I quote-or the narrarator, I forget the exact context:he demonstrated the ability to "move faster than Darth Maul's eye can follow," and wielded a lightsaber with precision that he traced Maul's outline with its blade so closely thsuch at "one flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle" would have killed him"
And once more: Palpatine by ROTS has three of the greatest swordsman of the Jedi order ever on his resume, and he's only facing three of the strongest people the galaxy had ever seen. While your lightsaber prodigy fought...padawan Crado and Padawan Sylvar, stalemated Ulic and fought Vodo twice. So? Tsavong Lah lost most of his duels and he's the supreme warrior of the Yuuzhan Vong. And Sidious uses tactics and strategy in his duels...this somehow lessens him as a fighter? And once more: Sidious lived in the golden age of lightsaber combat. Why on earth would him losing to two of the greatest warriors of the light-and one rather debateable- and one guy matching him, drawing strength from his sister who's already been described as infintesimal to him when she's alreayd around the power of a Sunrider...when Kun's ever fought people like Mace and Yoda who were truly fighting to destroy...because they're both masterful saber fighters, so Kun being a 'saber prodigy' won't help.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, you mean the Sith Lords who were all dead? Odan stripped Sith from a force, proof they were anything more than Massassi?
What need would he have to strip Massassi from the force ? And he says "Sith Lords" himself. So...
And Yoda IS above them and yes, it's hinted he's had encounters with the Sith, something to do with the Rule of Two. And it puts Yoda square above the Jedi who were actually defeating Ancient Sith, and given it's the 'greatest foe the darkness had ever known'...how much greater than the light IS this darkness? Since Yoda was 'the most powerful force of light', with a grasp of the force and the light few ever receive...
Great. Because Yoda possibly encountered Sith that automatically puts him far above people who faced Ancient Sith Lords ? Uh-hu. And because of that statements he must be far more powerful than anybody else - it couldn't be that "most powerful" only descripes his superiority by 1 % or 10 % ? No...of course not. The point is since you don't have any idea how much more powerful Yoda is compared to Odan or Vodo you can't give any exact statement if he is superior to Kun. It's really that easy.
Considering it says Luke's skill has already surpassed most Jedi, I'd say there's plenty logic.
Wow. Proof ? May I remind you that a cloned PT Jedi gone dark (Joruus) was almost too much for him when Jorus himself clearly wasn't the powerhouse of the PT Jedi order ? But one year later he suddenly should have surpassed people like Mace or even Yoda ?
Even Mace acknowledged Obi-wan as the ultimate master of Soresu. Proof Mace invented Vaapad at thirteen? And Luke's not uber at combat situations, even then? Seriously...Anakin too. Did you watch the cartoons? See Anakin crush Dooku? And before you even try it: There's nothing to suggest Dooku held back. In fact, almost every source on the matter was Dooku realizing he had to fight seriously or Palpatine telling him to fight to the fullest and if Ani died, he wasn't worthy. Anakin also had the issue of having his mind fogged by anger and facing a guy who TRAINED him how to fight, the novelization even said Obi-wan knew all of Anakin's moves like they were his own.
No of course there is nothing to suggest that Dooku held back - just the fact that he kicked Obi-Wan and Anakin arround like he wanted, blocked swings from both at once almost easily with one hand and so on and so forth. And wow...he was facing the guy who trained him ? Like Exar fighting against Vodo ?
The point is that Anakin after 13 years of training wasn't able to overcome Kenobi who - as Yoda said - wasn't powerful enough to defeat the Emperor. But suddenly Luke with less potential than Anakin, less training and less combat experience is able to do that because he "surpassed" all other people ? Really funny...
Who do I believe, Nai? Vodo, whose own spirit actually said he didn't want to fight or hurt Kun and was there to turn him back to the light or someone else?
Vodo in his living form who has come to stop Exar and said he would kill Ulic ?
And Kun didn't want to fight Sylvar at any one time, that he fought Vodo meant nothing, just a gesture from apprentice to master. And Oh, yeah, Cay REALLY wanted to fight Ulic seriously, all the 'Ulic, don't make me! I love you!" Real savage battle.
The point is that Cay couldn't outduel Ulic. Sylvar couldn't outduel Kun even in his "weaker" Padawan state. And Ulic put Nomi on her knees before. So what ? Obviously nobody except Vodo had the skill to defeat Ulic and Kun in direct confrontation which makes him quite superior to everybody else arround.
Ah, so Sidious utilized the environment and his brain, when the others could've come to the other's aid, dodged, counterattacked the damn thrust or slash?
Of course. They could have dodged into walls, try counterattacks by slashing through their friends and use styles that weren't designed for situations where they have such a lack of space. Somehow I don't think so...
Not many forms involved there. And of course the idea that Palpatine held back and allowed himself to be overpowered doesn't enter into here, especially considering what Mace saw as his shatterpoint and what the Ultimate Visual Gudie had to say.
Lucas:"Mace overpowered Palpatine". End of "oh my Sidious held back" debate there. Period.
Oh, come on...Maul doesn't give any credit where it's not due he describes Sidious's abilities, and I quote-or the narrarator, I forget the exact context:he demonstrated the ability to "move faster than Darth Maul's eye can follow," and wielded a lightsaber with precision that he traced Maul's outline with its blade so closely thsuch at "one flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle" would have killed him"
It's nice how many people can move fast in the SW universe. "If Kar Vastors movements were faster then lightning, Mace Windu was invisible." Taken from Shatterpoint. Mace was placing 6 hits on Kar before his opponent was able to show any reaction - and that was the guy who impressed Jedi Council Members (Depa and Mace) with his force powers and fighting abilities.
And once more: Palpatine by ROTS has three of the greatest swordsman of the Jedi order ever on his resume, and he's only facing three of the strongest people the galaxy had ever seen.
Wow. How many hyperboles can somebody use ? The "most powerful" people of the PT era are Sidious, Dooku, Anakin, Yoda, Mace. If you want to go by lightsaber abilities only...Yoda, Mace, Depa (who was equal to Mace) and possibly Dooku, Anakin and Obi-Wan are superior to Sidious in LIGHTSABER fighting. So technically he's not really the best lightsaber duellist you can find - not in the PT era and even less "all time" (as people like Kun, Ulic, Tulak Hord, the other ancient Sith, Luke, Kyle, Nomi and possibly even Revan and Malak are noted as "top duellists" who are damn skilled judging from what they have shown).
While your lightsaber prodigy fought...padawan Crado and Padawan Sylvar, stalemated Ulic and fought Vodo twice. So? Tsavong Lah lost most of his duels and he's the supreme warrior of the Yuuzhan Vong.
Yes. He's losing against Jedi when we have Lucas in the TPM commentary stating that Jedi are "almost invincible" if not confronting other force users. How many people have we seen defeating or stalemating Jedi in melee combat being non-force-users. The only people that come to my mind are Ulic and Grievous while Grievous - according to Dooku - needs the surprise elements to do so.
This alone gives Ulic a unique position in terms of lightsaber combat and with him the people able to best him (Kun and Vodo).
And Sidious uses tactics and strategy in his duels...this somehow lessens him as a fighter? And once more: Sidious lived in the golden age of lightsaber combat.
Rofl. He uses tactics and strategy to compensate a lack of actual duelling skill. And the PT era isn't the "golden age of lightsaber combat" it's the "Golden age of the Jedi" which isn't equal with "Golden Age of Lightsaber combat". The Golden Age of Lightsaber combat was either Tulak Hords time (millenia before the PT) or the Republics Dark Ages with the Battles on Ruusan (1,000 years before the PT) - because people needed to fight lightsaber vs lightsaber there which clearly wasn't needed before the PT.
Why on earth would him losing to two of the greatest warriors of the light-and one rather debateable- and one guy matching him, drawing strength from his sister who's already been described as infintesimal to him when she's alreayd around the power of a Sunrider...when Kun's ever fought people like Mace and Yoda who were truly fighting to destroy...because they're both masterful saber fighters, so Kun being a 'saber prodigy' won't help.
If you are able to write this in a form that makes some sense please do it. Leia was far away from being as powerful as Nomi Sunrider so try and sell that stuff to somebody who buys it. Fact: Kun was a saber prodigy, Sidious was not. Kun has amulets that give him some power boost - Sidious in ROTS doesn't. And why Yoda and Sidious might be a very nice match for Kun - still DN Luke is able to destroy both opponents rather easily why both would have problems with Kun. So why debating here ? Yoda and Sidious simply lose that fight...
I'm just saying, considering the Sith Lords were completely wiped out, from either Ludo's folloy or Naga's attack.
If we take the villains into account themselves, then it puts Yoda far above the others, unless people like Vodo were the best the light ever had to offer. Since Kun is hardly the greatest the darkness has had to offer, logic would dictate Yoda is greater than him, and considering Yoda's come into the power of the light in a way few ever even understand, and the light is stronger than the dark side if used properly...
It says he did in the DE sourcebook, and Jorus was a year back. And it only took Exar...three years to become the 'darkest power in the galaxy'...and several, what, weeks, to become a full fledged power as a Sith Lord.
And the novelization goes on to explain Anakin and Obi-wan were using inferior forms to trick Dooku. The novelization says he fought seriously, the script says he was plain overpowered, LoE has Sidious TELLING him to fight to his best...and yeah, Kenobi's SKILL means nothing? And Anakin's state of mind? There's a reason Kenobi was sent after Anakin: Because he knew him, knew his moves and knew how to counter him, it's that simple. It has nothing to do with power.
Vodo who by his own admission couldn't truly fight Exar and Ulic who Exar failed to overcome?
Cay didn't WANT to fight Ulic, he was crying during the fight! And Sylvar couldn't outduel Kun? That fight was never even finished and Kun just out and grabbed her when she clawed him. And Vodo being Kun's former master had nothing to do with it? Unless we saw every other Master, most of whom weren't even present...there's a reason Kun sent apprentice after master, too. The logic is 'Vodo tried and failed so he must be better'
Anything's better than just letting him stab or slash you. Just face it: Sidious was plain faster, smarter and better than they were....or, y'know a simple sweep of one's blade could've saved their lives.
Except nothing to say he didn't overpower him because Sidious held back. Cuts both ways.
That's great. Luke was also flying across Palp's throne room, too fast than the eye could perceive.
Ahhh, yes, the hyperbole backpedal. Considering said swordsmen are only described such and that's used by Insider to compliment Palpatine's skill, not to mention...trying to say Mace, Yoda and Luke aren't three of the most powerful entities the galaxy's seen? Especially when Palpatine is noted as 'perhaps one of the best duelists who ever lived' and Mace is 'one of the greatest duelists the Jedi order ever produced', with Yoda above him, and Luke's skill with a saber being described as 'incredible'
Grievous needed surprised? Which is why we've seen accomplished Jedi rush him and get cut down. Ulic held off Sylvar, goody for him. I'd pity the man who couldn't hold off an emotionally scarred berserker. And toss Anja Gallandro on that list.
Palpatine is describe das possibly one of the greatest duelists who have ever lived, end of your 'he has no dueling skill' argument. Even if he's not, this shows he's more than qualified as a duelist. And I pity the duelist without tactical skills or intelligence.
Except the comic says Leia is strong as Nomi and Vima, try again.
Keep trying to go against what the facts say, Nai. Since that 'Yoda is the greatest foe the darkness had ever known,' let's use some logic...Yoda doesn't mind killing dark siders, he's done it ruthlessly in the past. He'd have no restraints with Kun, and by definition, unless the darksiders are all just above the Light, which has been proven and stated to be false, Yoda has mastered every discipline of the light and become the greatest force of light the galaxy had ever seen by that point, so unless Kun can contend with the most powerful Jedi who's ever lived up until that point, he's a dead man. Yoda's had nine hundred years to come into the full power of the light side, Kun had three years with the dark side. He's also facing the being who's mastered every discipline of the Jedi, will not hesitate to kill him, doesn't give a damn about turning him to the light and can throw anything he dishes out back in his face.
And fact: Sidious is described as an exceptional duelist and possibly one of the greatest duelists who ever lived, by a canon and factual article that certainly supercedes any argument you could make.
Fact: Leia is described as being as powerful as Nomi and Vima, by their own descendant and in later narraration.
And unless you have something of Kun's by the PT archaic Makashi skill...and the golden age of the Jedi, with some of the greatest duelists the Jedi Order had ever seen...no advancements in saber combat? In the ages of the Dookus, Anakins-described as a 'nine' in saber combat by Mr. Gillard who invented his style, up there with Palpatine, Yoda and Mace, the Maces, the Yodas....
There go your 'facts', Nai. As you said: Sell it to someone who buys it, I'm trusting the soruce material.
And now for the great killing of three Jedi Master (also @Escape81):
Do you two have any idea about armed combat ? I don't want to say that Sidious "caught them offguard" because that would be stupid but he utilized their lack of space and the fact that they were hindering each other.
Precisely. Sidious didn't catch them off guard. They knew full well what he was, what he might do. Sith Lords don't have a reputation for being particularly benign. As for utilization, what's your point? Are you going to pull an Illustrious on me and dismiss Sidious for simply fighting smart? He had an advantage, he took it, and it let him obliterate three of the four Jedi who came to arrest him.
First he jumped them which was clearly a surprise action even if he pulled his lightsaber out before. And then the lack of space started working:
The surprise dismissal is another problem. What's your point? Yes, he surprised them by jumping. In ROTS, combatants always attempt to surprise their opponent. I'm sure that when Mace kicked Palpatine in the face, he surprised him too. But you don't hear me dismissing Mace's victory.
a) Agen (form IV user) and Mace (form VII) user didn't have the space to use their fighting styles which are both based on quite wide swings.
Again: Palpatine fights smart.
b) When he stabbed Agen, Mace and Kit couldn't place a hit on him because he used Agen as a sort of "shield" while Mr. Tiin displayed the reaction time of a dead starfish and doesn't even move his saber before being cut down.
Again: Palpatine fights smart.
c) He then puts himself in a position which makes it impossible for Kit and Mace to hit him without risking to strike down eachother and then kills Kit.
The bottom line is this: He outsmarted his opponents, which allowed him to kill them. Are you trying to say, Nai, that those three are better sword fighters than he is? I recall Lucas saying:
"Only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor."
He'd WTFpwn Fisto, Tinn, and Kolar.
And then when Windu finally has the space needed he overpowers Sidious and puts him on his ass. And from that action you want to tell me that Sidious is an uber duellist ? He clearly benefited from the circumstances / the situation. We have seen that Mace on his own was enough to defeat him. We know that Kit was on par or even better than Kenobi (Cestus Deception) and technically he should have lasted longer than 10 seconds against Sidious on his own. Agen and Saesee look like idiots here even though they both survived Geonosis which technically should mean that they are not that weak in terms of combat - but the scene makes them look like inexperienced wannabe-lightsaber-duellists.
Mace put Sidious on his ass, but you're one of the people who makes it sound like the duel lasted ten seconds. Wrong. Mace is not superior to Sidious by leagues, not even in dueling ability.
Of course I know how Maul descriped Sidious but:
a) Maul is Sidious slave and his fanboy number one - thus a fallible source
b) Maul got his ass handed to Padawan Kenobi. Even if this was only due to his arrogance - if Kenobi can utilize that I'm pretty sure Sidious won't have any problems to do this either.
Mm-hmm. Let me tell you something. If Obi-Wan, as a Padawan, were superior to Maul - really - then why didn't Obi-Wan kill him when he had Qui-Gon Jinn there? Point moot. Kenobi couldn't kill Maul when he even had help. Maul got cocky, kind've like Anakin, and paid the price. Maul was a better duelist to TPM Obi-Wan and TPM Qui-Gon.
So why should we put ROTS Sidious above a lightsaber prodigy like Exar Kun when it comes to lightsaber duelling when Kun won all confrontations with Jedi Master we have seen while Sidious always lost in lightsaber combat ? If Sidious was a lightsaber prodigy he shouldn't have lost against Mace, Yoda and DE Luke (in the last case in a younger body and equipped with greater force powers) but all that happened.
I agree. Sidious's lightsaber abilities aren't on par with Exar Kun, at least in my opinion. But, again, Sidious wasn't WTFpwned in lightsaber combat against Mace or Yoda. And, I'm inclined to think that Leia had something to do with the fight with Luke - not because I'm biased, but because Sidious nearly killed Luke - but then as soon as Leia began to "glow", BLAM! Sidious's arm is amputated.
And I personally think that is the case because of Sidious philosophy and motivation. His motivation is power and his philosophy is to reach that goal by deception, manipulation but not through direct confrontation. And what need does somebody have to be a good fighter when his main "weapon of choice" is "stealth" or pulling the strings behind the scenes ? Sidious might possess exceptional force knowledge and power but I doubt that he is really skilled in terms of duelling - it just doesn't fit his personality and his fight against the 4 Jedi in his office (as I personally see it) was rather a display of his tactical abilities than a proof for his combat skills.
This actually makes sense, and I support it 100%.
Sidious's Force powers, in the PT are equal or beneath only Yoda. He's better than Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and all others in Force powers.
Why on earth would the Sith Lord not be skilled in combat? Just because fighting isn't a man's main method doesn't mean he's incabable, because the same could apply to Yoda who doesn't particilarly like pulling up the saber...same could apply to Dooku.
Facts remain: Sidious is a good fighter, and it's that simple. He saw how the Sith failed in the past and tried the new, better way. He kepts his claws hidden, but they were always there