Rots Sids vs. Treya

Started by Xavius16 pages
You mean, degradation ? What the hell do you call stating I am a moron ? Hypocrite much?

Typo. πŸ˜› I was typing far too fast.

Okay...Im sick of arguing this with you.

burden of proof fallacy

You *cannot* turn over the burden of proof on *me*, to do so would be logical fallacy

Ironically, you stating you've won the argument when both opinions are heed against each other is Logical Fallacy in itself. You must provide proof to destroy my claim. I must do the same with you. That's . . . the PURPOSE . . . OF . . . D E B A T I N G .

Hypocrite much?

See above. It is still my responsibility to disprove your arguments, which I have been doing. But you cannot say that the debate is a stalemate because the negative fails to offer proof. That is called, the negative proof fallacy.

Of course it does! You don't win! If you challenge my opinion with another opinion and you fail to provide proof, you're honestly winning zero, GV.

Well first of all, I meant that example as an example of conflicting opinions. BOTH conclusions you could make, are invalid because it is not backed by proper logical reasoning or evidence. This example is unrelated to a proper debate.

And you are equating the Pizza and Steak with :

'Traya can use the instakill on Sidious'

'Traya cannot use the instakill on Sidious'

That is fallacious, and you know it.

Fine:

George can put Olives on his Pizza.

George cannot put Olives on his Pizza.

^ You're saying you challenging my opinion with one just as open and fallacious grants you a certain victory? Logical Fallacy. Right there.

BTW, The previous analogy I did is perfectly equate to the Traya debate.

I have put your theory to shit, your argument is plagued with assumptions and speculation.

To say it is a stalemate, because I cannot *prove* you are wrong, is the burden of proof fallacy.

The burden of proof also has another slate to it's theory, GV.

"Can you prove she CANNOT use her instakill?"

Just like Futurama:

"Can you prove it won't happen?"

You put my theory to shit? You have no evidence! You perpetually dance around the point and try to fall my side of the debate (WITHOUT ARGUING THE POINT) so you won't have to put up a fight against my claim.

First of all, force grip, push and drain doesnt instakill like Kreias move does. The entire problem of this, is you are just assuming Kreia can wave her hand and Sidious simply dies. That is a ridiculous assumption, being Sidious is far more knowledgable and powerful than some jedi masters.

Why are you ignoring what you said? You asked me "When have you seen a force power that couldn't be blocked?"

I answered you.

And, what the f*ck? How do you know Sidious possesses more knowledge than these Masters? You can't assume that. Hypocrite much, GV?

Kreia could force drain Sidious and he would die. What could stop her? How do you even KNOW he possesses knowledge of how to deal with that? It's a ridiculous assumption to assume that by the time of RotS he had knowledge of the Instakill. He would have used it if he knew it and there is no evidence that he can block it. That simple.

Even if they couldnt block it, your missing the point, where is the proof that *Sidious* cant block it? You have absolutely none.

Kreias instakill, once again, is an unknown, that hasnt been properly defined yet, so we cant apply it in the context of this fight.

Three force sensitives, who have spent most of their life studying the guarding side of the force. The protective side of the force FELL to Traya's instakill.

Sidious, whom practices OFFENSIVE techniques and not very many defensive ones, is more vulnerable to this attack.

You seem to think Kreias ability has unlimited power, because you said 'it instantly kills' and expect that to apply to all situations. This is absurd. You have absolutely no proof or even support that it would work in all situations, all we have is that one instance it was used, when those jedi masters were killed. So now anything that is capable of killing is now an 'instakill'? Do you see the absurdity of your logic?

Wait . . . Did I say it could apply to all situations? You assuming again, GV? Yup.

Traya killed three Force Sensitive Humans INSTANTLY.

What would be the trouble with ONE force sensitive Human? Especially RotS Sidious, whom has alot of knowledge but not as much by that time.

Also, just an observation, if Kreias 'instakill' works in all situations then why didnt she use it to defeat the Exile? Why didnt she use it to defeat Sion & Nihilus when they attacked her on Malachor? Its 'instakill' right? Infallible?

Works in all situations? Once again, who said that?

She didn't want to kill the Exile, she didn't WANT to kill Sion and she may have not possessed the knowledge of Instakill by the time Nihilus and Sion betrayed her. Either that or she wanted to use them later on, seeing as she is so manipulative.

That much is obvious.

Your awful stupidity is obvious.

Originally posted by KMC Dark Lord
hey heres an idea.

Actually read what I said before commenting on it.

Here's an idea.

Do something useful around this site instead of criticizing people.

If you can't debate, you shouldn't be here.

oh xavius.... you are my hero.

P.S. haha JM you're Avatar kinda sorta looks like michael jackson

Originally posted by Xavius
Here's an idea.

Do something useful around this site instead of criticizing people.

If you can't debate, you shouldn't be here.

ha ha ha ha,, heres an idea. Actually know what your talking about.

Originally posted by KMC Dark Lord
ha ha ha ha,, heres an idea. Actually know what your talking about.

What a pathetic retort. Try again next time.

Originally posted by Xavius
Ironically, you stating you've won the argument when both opinions are heed against each other is Logical Fallacy in itself. You must provide proof to destroy my claim. I must do the same with you. That's . . . the PURPOSE . . . OF . . . D E B A T I N G .

No, your wrong again. I am commiting no logical fallacy, it is you who are commiting...lets say it again:

burden of proof fallacy


Of course it does! You don't win! If you challenge my opinion with another opinion and you fail to provide proof, you're honestly winning zero, GV.

Okay, by your logic I could say:

'George Lucas made a direct statement that "ROTS Sids is more powerful than Kreia".'

Your retort would obviously be:

'Prove it.'

By your logic I could say:

'Prove that he *didnt* say it.'

Conclusion: OMFG stalemate!!!11

Do you see how fallacious your reasoning is? Let me know when you want to debate at a level beyond elementary school.


Fine:

George can put Olives on his Pizza.

George cannot put Olives on his Pizza.

^ You're saying you challenging my opinion with one just as open and fallacious grants you a certain victory? Logical Fallacy. Right there.

BTW, The previous analogy I did is perfectly equate to the Traya debate.

By saying 'George *can* put olives on his pizza.'

You are attempting to divine a truth, and truth is an elistist club reserved for the worthy Im afraid.

The answer to your analogy is, that George cannot put olives on his pizza, until proof is provided.

Now ofcourse we *do* have reasonable evidence that a person is capable of putting olives on his pizza, but your assuming there is no evidence so again the default position is skepticism.

The burden of proof also has another slate to it's theory, GV.

"Can you prove she CANNOT use her instakill?"

Just like Futurama:

"Can you prove it won't happen?"

You put my theory to shit? You have no evidence! You perpetually dance around the point and try to fall my side of the debate (WITHOUT ARGUING THE POINT) so you won't have to put up a fight against my claim.

See above.

And you gain your knowledge of logical reasoning from futurama? That was meant as a joke, illogical reasoning is often humorous. LMAO.

Why are you ignoring what you said? You asked me "When have you seen a force power that couldn't be blocked?"

We are unsure if the ones you stated are blockable or not either. What I meant was, when has a power ever been *proven* to be unblockable? Way to miss the point.

And, what the f*ck? How do you know Sidious possesses more knowledge than these Masters? You can't assume that. Hypocrite much, GV?

Oh yeah, some jedi masters knew more about sith techniques than Sidious, who has studied ancient sith knowledge his whole life.

Kreia could force drain Sidious and he would die. What could stop her? How do you even KNOW he possesses knowledge of how to deal with that? It's a ridiculous assumption to assume that by the time of RotS he had knowledge of the Instakill. He would have used it if he knew it and there is no evidence that he can block it. That simple.

Oh yeah, great argument, 'Kreia would force drain Sidious and he would die'.

Like I said before, Sidious has studied ancient sith knowledge his whole life. And even if he didnt know about it, you have yet to prove the instakill is capable of defeating a powerful sith lord like Sidious.

Three force sensitives, who have spent most of their life studying the guarding side of the force. The protective side of the force FELL to Traya's instakill.

'The guarding side of the force'? WTF? Oh this is rich. Please refrain from pulling things out of your ass.

Wait . . . Did I say it could apply to all situations? You assuming again, GV? Yup.

Traya killed three Force Sensitive Humans INSTANTLY.

What would be the trouble with ONE force sensitive Human? Especially RotS Sidious, whom has alot of knowledge but not as much by that time.

Once again, the fact that Sidious is human like the masters is irrelevent. This is all related to power and knowledge, not race.

Works in all situations? Once again, who said that?

Your the one who stated that Kreias move simply 'instakills' and that was the end of it. I believe that would make you a... hypocrite .

She didn't want to kill the Exile, she didn't WANT to kill Sion and she may have not possessed the knowledge of Instakill by the time Nihilus and Sion betrayed her. Either that or she wanted to use them later on, seeing as she is so manipulative.

Okay so she just fights you (the exile) for no reason at all? If she didnt want to kill you, then how come you die if you arent able to defeat her?

And yes she *did* want to kill Sion, she even stated that she used you(the exile) to get rid of the sith lords for her. Obviously she was incapable of doing it herself.

Your awful stupidity is obvious.

LMAO. You have been owned, give it up Dr. Xavius.

Okay so she just fights you (the exile) for no reason at all? If she didnt want to kill you, then how come you die if you arent able to defeat her?

And yes she *did* want to kill Sion, she even stated that she used you(the exile) to get rid of the sith lords for her. Obviously she was incapable of doing it herself.

Nicely done.

As for my personal opinion:

There is no proof that Sidious could block Traya's instakill. None at all. Does that mean that it's true? Not necessarily. Otherwise, Traya could defeat any Sith Lord in personal combat.

In my opinion:

The power of those three Jedi Masters - combined - is a lot. I believe that Traya could kill Sidious as of RotS using her instakill. However, it isn't concrete - so I dunno.

Does this make her the most powerful Sith Lord? Not really. Afterall, in terms of sheer power, a Force Storm > Traya's Instakill. But she might have the edge in personal combat.

I'd say Traya has this with her instakill. πŸ˜–

And how about Sidious blasting her to hell with his force lightning before she even pulls it off?

Erm, then this entire fight is a western style shootout...

Personally I'd be a bit more inclined to favor the man who's been summoning up the spirits of the Sith and finding their secrets and artifacts for years

The answer is obvious

Traya Pwns.

Originally posted by zephiel7
The answer is obvious

Traya Pwns.

The answer is obvious

Your an idiot.

Let's see some proof to back up your claims,besides "Oh Traya will just instakill him because she did it to three Jedi Masters who knew NOTHING of how to counter it.".

Well... she did have the force telekenisis to knock them around like rag dolls. Could RotS Palpatine do that?

Originally posted by DE Luke
The answer is obvious

Your an idiot.

Let's see some proof to back up your claims,besides "Oh Traya will just instakill him because she did it to three Jedi Masters who knew NOTHING of how to counter it.".

Well consider the fact that these three masters had far more xperience with battling dark Jedi than any of the PT Jedi.

Despite this fact, Traya walked into the room, and swept them off their feet. Vrook attempted to resist, and all three of them were instant killed. If she were able to apply this technique on three powerful masters simultaneously, then Sidious stands no chance.

Sidious was unable to defeat either Mace, and his battle against Yoda was not a clear victory. With Traya the battle was a clear victory on her part.

The instant kill was described to be a technique to which "there was no defence." Sure ignore the fact she used them against three Jedi masters. Ignore the fact that she learned ancient sith techniques at Malachor 5.

Sidious demonstrates in ROTS the FANTASTIC ability to use force lightning. πŸ™„ At least I can show how Traya was able to defeat three masters.

You currently have nothing to work with other than ZOMG SIDIOUS RULEZZZ.

GO DE Luke and your fantastic ability to reason! Very nice man...

More experience? Yoda's...nine hundred and his triumphs over the darkside are described as 'legion'...Mace's purple lightsaber was said to be the last sights of countless darksiders and evil beings across the galaxy.

Either Mace or yoda would kill Traya in seconds, don't kid yourself

Originally posted by zephiel7
Well consider the fact that these three masters had far more xperience with battling dark Jedi than any of the PT Jedi.

Despite this fact, Traya walked into the room, and swept them off their feet. Vrook attempted to resist, and all three of them were instant killed. If she were able to apply this technique on three powerful masters simultaneously, then Sidious stands no chance.

Sidious was unable to defeat either Mace, and his battle against Yoda was not a clear victory. With Traya the battle was a clear victory on her part.

The instant kill was described to be a technique to which "there was no defence." Sure ignore the fact she used them against three Jedi masters. Ignore the fact that she learned ancient sith techniques at Malachor 5.

Sidious demonstrates in ROTS the FANTASTIC ability to use force lightning. πŸ™„ At least I can show how Traya was able to defeat three masters.

You currently have nothing to work with other than ZOMG SIDIOUS RULEZZZ.

Yeah,nice proof you have there,too bad it's crap.And tell me where it said "it was a technique to which there was no defence.",oh right,THERE ISN'T!Sure ,ignore the facts that by the time of ROTS Sidious already knew almost ALL of the Sith secrets,ignore the fact that he was also able to kill three of the Greatest Jedi Council Masters of the PT in a saber fight.And you say that the Jedi of the PT are weaker than the ones in KOTOR,really?Then why is Mace the sceond best of the ENTIRE Order?Yeah,you really know how to back your claims,zephiel.You have nothing to say accept "Zomg!!11!Tr4y4 w1l1 l3e4t l34th3r f4(3 l3e(4us3 sh3 1s teh Ul3ER!!11!!".

Umm if Traya's in. kill was so powerful why didn't she just use it on the Exile?

More experience? Yoda's...nine hundred and his triumphs over the darkside are described as 'legion'....

Could I have a direct quote of this? "Legion" is very ambiguous. Legion of what anyways? Yoda never faced an instantkill. He has shown an ability to counter Sith lightning, but by the time of PT, remenants of the ancient Sith (including Malachor 5) was ridiculously small or zero. Traya has the distinct advantage of Malachor 5 and the instantkill technique "born of the ancient sith"

Mace's purple lightsaber was said to be the last sights of countless darksiders and evil beings across the galaxy

From all the details of the PT, the only darksiders that Mace ever fought were Dooku, Assaaj, and Sidious. The others were poorly trained dark Jedi (ie., Sora Bulq). Revan and Malak had entire academies based on training only the strongest dark Jedi. They were picked only from the finest force users. Kavar, Vrook, and Zez Kai survived through this and Sion's Sith assassins. These were three masters who were under assault by the darkside almost every day. Nevertheless, Traya easily instantkilled them.

Could either Mace or Yoda defend themselves from "a technique to which there is no defence?"

Either Mace or yoda would kill Traya in seconds, don't kid yourself

You jest good man. You jest.


[B]Yeah,nice proof you have there,too bad it's crap.And tell me where it said "it was a technique to which there was no defence.",oh right,THERE ISN'T!Sure ,ignore the facts that by the time of ROTS Sidious already knew almost ALL of the Sith secrets,ignore the fact that he was also able to kill three of the Greatest Jedi Council Masters of the PT in a saber fight.And you say that the Jedi of the PT are weaker than the ones in KOTOR,really?Then why is Mace the sceond best of the ENTIRE Order?Yeah,you really know how to back your claims,zephiel.You have nothing to say accept "Zomg!!11!Tr4y4 w1l1 l3e4t l34th3r f4(3 l3e(4us3 sh3 1s teh Ul3ER!!11!!".

Please, order your points so they are distinguishable.

The other masters of the Jedi order are non issues. Being bested by clone troopers IMO doesn't look too good on your resume.

The quote is in KOTOR 2. It is stated in dialogue with Kreia.

Firstly Luke, I wouldn't really include Agen and Saesee as some of the greatest council members as of ROTS. I would rate Anakin, Kenobi, Yoda, Mace, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, and pssibly Shaak Ti as greater then them. That's over half the council, not to mention non-council members such as Cin Drallig or Luminara Unduli.

And KOTOR and NJO councils pwn the council as of ROTS.