Dooku's Skill

Started by Escape8128 pages
Escape81 Restricted

There is no cheating in a duel. Especially for a Sith Lord.

Escape81 Restricted

From the official RotS commentary:

"The major issue here is, I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperor's assistant - or the other Sith - could take Jedi and convert them. In this particular case , the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he's strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesn't tell Dooku what he's actually up too. Dooku thinks that he's just going to fight Anakin. But the whole thing is a set-up by the Emperor to test Anakin's strength and when Anakin is strong enough - which he proves to be by killing Dooku - then the Emperor's ready to convert him over to the Dark Side, to become his new apprentice."

There you go. Taken word-for-word from the RotS feature commentary. Now . . .

- Combine this with the exact screenplay that I provided

- "Soon I will have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful." - Darth Sidious/Palpatine

- The fact that Palpatine's "test" could only be accurate if he pit Dooku and Anakin up against each other, unrestrained.

. . . and you have an open and shut case. George Lucas, the official screenplay, a quote from the movie, and the fact of accuracy all indicate and state that Anakin is greater and more powerful than Count Dooku.

As for the "amnesty" line, it's rather simple. Lucas stated that Palpatine 'didn't tell Dooku what he was up to'. It is likely that he told Dooku that if he lost, he'd be granted amnesty - to protect him.

But Palpatine lied.

Case closed. Anakin is superior to Dooku in at least lightsaber combat.

Rampant ox Senior Member

Why don't you watch that part again. Dooku was attacking Anakin and Anakin was blocking his attack.

Fair enough. Dooku might have been tired and was getting desperate. i dont know why he did this andbesides you are just splitting hairs.

The point is Jam-Jul_Lison said using the Force on Obi-Wan in ROTS made him tired.

Exactly. Fighting and eliminatng Obi-Wan used up a fair amount of the Counts energy. Energy that could have been used to fight Anakin.

A) You cannot cheat in a fight. All fair in love and war.

Cheating might be a bad word to use. The point is Dooku thought doing something like that was below him. However it wasnt below Anakin. So Dookus arrogance led him to beleive someone wouldnt use a move like that - however he was wrong.

B) Palpatine was strapped to a chair. He wasn't stepping anywhere.

They might not have been strapped on properly. Im sure that if Dooku thought that Sids was going to step in and help im sure he would make sure that he could actually get up. And also Sids could use the force to unlock them. Much like he did to Lukes handcuffs in ROTJ.

C) Anakin pwned Dooku.

Yes but not in a fair fight.

You keep calling what Anakin did cheating. Show me a rule book on fighting.

Like I said cheating might be a bad word. However Dooku was in a loghtsaber duel. Keyword being lightsaber. he didnt think that someone would physically grab his arms while in a duel. His arrogance made him think that everyone would live by the same high standards he does. However he was wrong.

You keep saying it's dishonorable but here is the thing: SITH HAVE NO HONOR, they care only about themselves.

True. But I think it is safe top say that Dooku had a sense of honor and nobility. He practiced in the old elegant style of Form ll to display his arrogance. He thought this was an HONORABLE form. Better than the other more clumsy forms.

And what Anakin did was called smart not cheating. Because to win a fight you need to be able to outmanueve your opponent.

Again, a LIGHTSABER duel. Not a wrestling match. Anakin did not outmanouvre Dooku with a lightsaber. He physically subdued an 80 year lod man. Not very impressive to me.

I guess kicking Palpatine makes Mace a cheater. I guess punching Maul makes Qui-Gon a cheater. I guess knocking Qui-Gon in the face makes Maul a cheater.

No. But it was cheating in Dookus eyes. There was no honor in physically assaulting someone in a duel of lightsabers.

The fact is Anakin overpowered and outmanueved Count Dooku to win.

Overpowered yes. Although thats not hard seeing the age difference and the fact Dooku had to fight two opponents.

Dooku went on the offensive at the end and Anakin used that to gain the upper hand.

Matter of personal opinion if he was on the offensive or defensive. It is extremely difficult to tell. The point is Anakin used Dookus age and fatigue against him. Not a hard thing to do under the circumstances.

Anakin > Dooku

In physical strength yes. In skill no.

Sin Harvest Sonic Speed

Originally posted by Escape81
From the official RotS commentary:

"The major issue here is, I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperor's assistant - or the other Sith - could take Jedi and convert them. In this particular case , the idea is that Palpatine is [B]testing Anakin to see if he's strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesn't tell Dooku what he's actually up too. Dooku thinks that he's just going to fight Anakin. But the whole thing is a set-up by the Emperor to test Anakin's strength and when Anakin is strong enough - which he proves to be by killing Dooku - then the Emperor's ready to convert him over to the Dark Side, to become his new apprentice."

There you go. Taken word-for-word from the RotS feature commentary. Now . . .

- Combine this with the exact screenplay that I provided

- "Soon I will have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful." - Darth Sidious/Palpatine

- The fact that Palpatine's "test" could only be accurate if he pit Dooku and Anakin up against each other, unrestrained.

. . . and you have an open and shut case. George Lucas, the official screenplay, a quote from the movie, and the fact of accuracy all indicate and state that Anakin is greater and more powerful than Count Dooku.

As for the "amnesty" line, it's rather simple. Lucas stated that Palpatine 'didn't tell Dooku what he was up to'. It is likely that he told Dooku that if he lost, he'd be granted amnesty - to protect him.

But Palpatine lied.

Case closed. Anakin is superior to Dooku in at least lightsaber combat. [/B]

Thank you.

Cheating might be a bad word to use. The point is Dooku thought doing something like that was below him. However it wasnt below Anakin. So Dookus arrogance led him to beleive someone wouldnt use a move like that - however he was wrong.

So now Dooku is retarded. Anakin simply outsmarted him. And the fact of the matter is that Anakin had to get close to Dooku, make it so that his lightsaber doesn't hit him, and manage to slice of his arms. That is called skill.

Rampant ox Senior Member
So now Dooku is retarded. Anakin simply outsmarted him. And the fact of the matter is that Anakin had to get close to Dooku, make it so that his lightsaber doesn't hit him, and manage to slice of his arms. That is called skill.

No Dooku isnt retarded, he is arrogant. And the duo were duelling close to each other the whole duel. Did you not see the saber lock they were in where they were 15cm apart?? It doesnt take skill for Anakin to then extend his arms and physically overpower an 80 year old man.

Sin Harvest Sonic Speed

From the official RotS commentary:

"The major issue here is, I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperor's assistant - or the other Sith - could take Jedi and convert them. In this particular case , the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he's strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesn't tell Dooku what he's actually up too. Dooku thinks that he's just going to fight Anakin. But the whole thing is a set-up by the Emperor to test Anakin's strength and when Anakin is strong enough - which he proves to be by killing Dooku - then the Emperor's ready to convert him over to the Dark Side, to become his new apprentice."

There you go. Taken word-for-word from the RotS feature commentary. Now . . .

- Combine this with the exact screenplay that I provided

- "Soon I will have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful." - Darth Sidious/Palpatine

- The fact that Palpatine's "test" could only be accurate if he pit Dooku and Anakin up against each other, unrestrained.

. . . and you have an open and shut case. George Lucas, the official screenplay, a quote from the movie, and the fact of accuracy all indicate and state that Anakin is greater and more powerful than Count Dooku.

As for the "amnesty" line, it's rather simple. Lucas stated that Palpatine 'didn't tell Dooku what he was up to'. It is likely that he told Dooku that if he lost, he'd be granted amnesty - to protect him.

But Palpatine lied.

Case closed. Anakin is superior to Dooku in at least lightsaber combat.

Enough said.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Hah! The novelization, Essential Chronology AND THE GODDAMN SCRIPT AND GL COMMENTARY shoot down your theory and viewpoint and you STILL try to defend it? This is sad..

Lucas' commentary said nothing about the effort Dooku was using. His only comment was that the actor Christopher Lee, tried his hardest to perform the duel, but ultimately had to be substituted with a stunt double. I have the DVD in my player as I write this! To be honest, I am bored of debating this with you, as you will not accept a) that Dooku was a superior swordsman than Anakin, b) EU is only canon when it I) does not contradict a movie (through alteration of a scene) or II) shows or adds detail that the movie did not have, and c) refuse to accept that multiple film examples of something outweigh a single instance something happening in a comic. I'm not saying that the comic is wrong, just that it is not the definitive source of the information.

Also:

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Oh, and I notice I don't owe you a goddamn thing about my personal life.

You said quite clearly:
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You know absolutely nothing about real fighting.

Which was a) only your assumption as you know nothing about me, and b) incorrect. I responded to correct that, and asked for your own experience as comparison, as you clearly felt that you had superior knowledge about the subject to me.
I'll ask you once more, and if you refuse to answer, you are simply proving my point even further: How old are you, and how long have you been studying martial arts and fencing. I'll be 28 in just over three months, and by that time, will have spent twenty years studying martial arts and fencing. Would I be right in thinking I have spent longer studying the fighting arts than you have been alive?

Sin Harvest Sonic Speed

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
From the official RotS commentary:

"The major issue here is, I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperor's assistant - or the other Sith - could take Jedi and convert them. In this particular case , the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he's strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesn't tell Dooku what he's actually up too. Dooku thinks that he's just going to fight Anakin. But the whole thing is a set-up by the Emperor to test Anakin's strength and when Anakin is strong enough - which he proves to be by killing Dooku - then the Emperor's ready to convert him over to the Dark Side, to become his new apprentice."

There you go. Taken word-for-word from the RotS feature commentary. Now . . .

- Combine this with the exact screenplay that I provided

- "Soon I will have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful." - Darth Sidious/Palpatine

- The fact that Palpatine's "test" could only be accurate if he pit Dooku and Anakin up against each other, unrestrained.

. . . and you have an open and shut case. George Lucas, the official screenplay, a quote from the movie, and the fact of accuracy all indicate and state that Anakin is greater and more powerful than Count Dooku.

As for the "amnesty" line, it's rather simple. Lucas stated that Palpatine 'didn't tell Dooku what he was up to'. It is likely that he told Dooku that if he lost, he'd be granted amnesty - to protect him.

But Palpatine lied.

Case closed. Anakin is superior to Dooku in at least lightsaber combat.

Enough said.

Hmm...it seems everyone is avoiding this. I guess when someone is proved wrong about their "hero" they try to ignore facts.

Fact is Anakin defeated Dooku fair and square. You have no proof that Dooku was going easy on Anakin.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Hmm...it seems everyone is avoiding this. I guess when someone is proved wrong about their "hero" they try to ignore facts.

The only 'fact' that people seem to be ignoring, is that none of Anakin's lightsaber swings touched the Count, and he only cut off his hands having physically grabbed hold of him and immobilized his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Fact is Anakin defeated Dooku fair and square. You have no proof that Dooku was going easy on Anakin.

He did not defeat Dooku fair and square though. Grabbing an opponent when you are supposed to be duelling with a lightsaber, is not 'fair', because Dooku was six decades older than Anakin, and not physically strong enough to grapple or wrestle with the younger man. Anakin had an unfair advantage, which he used. An honorable person would not have used such a move, as it would be beneath their honor and dignity.

Escape81 Restricted

Oh, for the love of God - be quiet. You have Lucas, the official screen play, and a quote that support the fact that Anakin legitimately defeated Count Dooku in a contest of lightsabers.

Case closed.

Lightsnake Senior Member

An honorable opponent wouldn't blast a young man with lightning instead of facing him in a duel...honorable opponents do not drop rocks on an injured opponent either

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Escape81
Oh, for the love of God - be quiet. You have Lucas,

Lucas said nothing about it in the commentary! The only discussion during the duel was how they did all Christopher Lee's closeup shots in one day, then used head replacement on his stunt double! That is Lucas' word!

Originally posted by Escape81
the official screen play,

The screenplay is not as canon as the movie, which the screenplay inspired. Re-watch the scene, it's clear to see! Failing that, here are screen captures from You Tube:
Anakin prepares to grab Dooku's Arms:

Anakin Grabs Dooku's arms immobilizing his lightsaber:

Anakin begins to move his lightsaber in to sever Dooku's hands.

Is that clear enough? Is that good enough evidence? It's from the f*cking movie, so you can't get any better evidence for what Anakin is doing!

Originally posted by Escape81
that support the fact that Anakin legitimately defeated Count Dooku in a contest of lightsabers.

And now to the semantics of the issue...
There is nothing to suggest that Anakin legitimately defeated the Count in 'a contest of lightsabers', because as I've said above, Dooku blocked all Anakin's swings! (even when Anakin lost his temper) Anakin had to physically grab Dooku in order to immobilize his lightsaber (see above images) and that, is not beating someone in a duel. Dooku beat Anakin in a duel when he cut his arm off. He also beat Obi-Wan in a duel when he tagged his arm and leg.
What part of this concept are people finding hard to understand?
Do people not understand what 'duel' means?
Beating someone in a duel involves beating them with a sword (or lightsaber) not resorting to physical grappling.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
An honorable opponent wouldn't blast a young man with lightning instead of facing him in a duel...

Why? It's possible to ground Force lightning on a lightsaber. Anakin's lightsaber was ignited when he charged Dooku. Had he had the skills and knowledge that he tried bragging to Padme that he had, he would have known how to ground the Force lightning.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
honorable opponents do not drop rocks on an injured opponent either

Yoda was able to prevent objects being dropped on him.

You still refuse to answer my simple question about your age or time you've spent studying martial arts. If you feel you had the right to assume knowledge about me by writing 'You know absolutely nothing about real fighting.', then I suggest you put down your age and experience for comparison, because your refusal to answer can only mean that I have more experience so indeed not only know about 'real fighting', but know more about it than you do. If you'd like to retract that statement and apologize however, feel free to do so.

Escape81 Restricted

Originally posted by Escape81
From the official RotS commentary:

"The major issue here is, I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperor's assistant - or the other Sith - could take Jedi and convert them. In this particular case , the idea is that Palpatine is [B]testing Anakin to see if he's strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesn't tell Dooku what he's actually up too. Dooku thinks that he's just going to fight Anakin. But the whole thing is a set-up by the Emperor to test Anakin's strength and when Anakin is strong enough - which he proves to be by killing Dooku - then the Emperor's ready to convert him over to the Dark Side, to become his new apprentice."

There you go. Taken word-for-word from the RotS feature commentary. Now . . .

- Combine this with the exact screenplay that I provided

- "Soon I will have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful." - Darth Sidious/Palpatine

- The fact that Palpatine's "test" could only be accurate if he pit Dooku and Anakin up against each other, unrestrained.

. . . and you have an open and shut case. George Lucas, the official screenplay, a quote from the movie, and the fact of accuracy all indicate and state that Anakin is greater and more powerful than Count Dooku.

As for the "amnesty" line, it's rather simple. Lucas stated that Palpatine 'didn't tell Dooku what he was up to'. It is likely that he told Dooku that if he lost, he'd be granted amnesty - to protect him.

But Palpatine lied.

Case closed. Anakin is superior to Dooku in at least lightsaber combat. [/B]

Vious -

READ THIS!

READ THIS!

READ THIS!

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Escape81
Vious -

READ THIS!

READ THIS!

READ THIS!


I read it, and I don't know what the **** commentary that is, but it is not the one on the DVD of RotS. Either way, I couldn't give a flying f*ck what a commentary says. There's not a pictorial equivelent to asking 'can you read?', but do these pictures not make my point clear? How can you deny evidence taken from the f*cking film??!!!
Originally posted by Darth Vious
The screenplay is not as canon as the movie, which the screenplay inspired. Re-watch the scene, it's clear to see! Failing that, here are screen captures from You Tube:
Anakin prepares to grab Dooku's Arms:

Anakin Grabs Dooku's arms immobilizing his lightsaber:

Anakin begins to move his lightsaber in to sever Dooku's hands.

Is that clear enough? Is that good enough evidence? It's from the f*cking movie, so you can't get any better evidence for what Anakin is doing!

Escape81 Restricted

That is on the RotS DVD! Right when Dooku "taunts" Anakin.

Escape81 Restricted

Secondly, we've already had the argument.

Anakin's move was a perfectly legitimate one. It defies no code of honor, nor is it cheating. He had an advantage and he took it. He effectively outmaneuvered, overpowered, and defeated Count Dooku in a lightsaber duel.

He is superior to Count Dooku.

Also:

I read it, and I don't know what the **** commentary that is, but it is not the one on the DVD of RotS. Either way, I couldn't give a flying f*ck what a commentary says. There's not a pictorial equivelent to asking 'can you read?', but do these pictures not make my point clear? How can you deny evidence taken from the f*cking film??!!!

This here shows the level by which you defy logic.

George Lucas's own words are just as canon - if not more so - than the movies themselves. So even if the movie did not show what we supported, and he still said it, he would still be the higher source.

But, the movie and Lucas both agree. Dooku was simply bested.

You've lost. 🙂

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Escape81
That is on the RotS DVD! Right when Dooku "taunts" Anakin.

Well it's not on the DVD I have. Perhaps Region 1 has a different commentary than Region 2, I don't know, but, it's certainly not on the DVD I have, or I would have acknowledged it as such.

Originally posted by Escape81

Anakin's move was a perfectly legitimate one.

It was not a legitimate one.
Is English not your first language?
Do you understand what 'duel' means?
In a lightsaber duel, the combatants are only supposed to use their lightsabers to fight each other. They are not supposed to physically grab their opponent.
Do you not understand this concept?

Originally posted by Escape81
It defies no code of honor, nor is it cheating.

As above, it does defy a code of honor and is cheating, because it is not sticking solely to the weapons with which the duel is supposed to be fought.

Originally posted by Escape81
He had an advantage and he took it.

The only advantage Anakin had was strength. Had he not overpowered the Count, he would not have been able to best him in a blade to blade duel. The scene shows clearly that none of his swings touched Dooku. By having to use physical means in a duel, he only proved that he was a) unable to best Dooku with a blade (which is the point of a duel) and b) willing to resort to dishonorable tactics.

Originally posted by Escape81
He effectively outmaneuvered, overpowered, and defeated Count Dooku

Yes, I don't deny that.

Originally posted by Escape81
in a lightsaber duel.

He did not though. Lightsaber duels do not involve physical grabbing of opponents. Do you not understand that? How many other times in any of the other duels did one of the people have to physically grab hold of their opponent in order to beat them?

Originally posted by Escape81
This here shows the level by which you defy logic.

I am not defying logic at all, infact, that's quite the reverse. You are the one denying visual evidence of the duel itself.

Originally posted by Escape81
George Lucas's own words are just as canon - if not more so - than the movies themselves. So even if the movie did not show what we supported, and he still said it, he would still be the higher source.

Actually, they are not. Lucas can say whatever he likes on a commentary about his intentions for a scene, but, unless the onscreen action agrees with what he says, then that was just his intention or opinion. The movie is the ultimate level of canon. If Lucas ever chooses to re-edit on the other hand to make the movie fit his intention closer, then that edited movie become the new canon (Not because it is closer to his intention, but because it is visual evidence)

Originally posted by Escape81
But, the movie and Lucas both agree. Dooku was simply bested.

Now you are changing the point to try and get me to agree. Yes, Dooku was bested. He was not, however, bested in a duel. Look back at the previous examples I gave of where, in AotC, Dooku beat Anakin and Obi-Wan in duels, and then compare those examples to the RotS duel. Notice the difference? Notice the lack of physical contact while crossing blades? Is it getting through that duels do not involve physical contact, but solely the weapon the duel is to be fought with?
The only person who's lost, is you 🙂

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

I'm not gonna join the debate here, BUT, George's words mean more than the movie. If he says that "We saw Luke defeat Darth Vader, but really, Darth Vader were faking it", then Vader was indeed faking it. He might have some hidden intentions in the movie, and every person who watches the movie gets their on perspective on the duel (perfect example is Mace vs Sidious) but it's George who created it, he knows more than anyone else. If he made it that way, he knows best of all.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
I'm not gonna join the debate here, BUT, George's words mean more than the movie. If he says that "We saw Luke defeat Darth Vader, but really, Darth Vader were faking it", then Vader was indeed faking it. He might have some hidden intentions in the movie, and every person who watches the movie gets their on perspective on the duel (perfect example is Mace vs Sidious) but it's George who created it, he knows more than anyone else. If he made it that way, he knows best of all.

George's words only mean what he personally intended or feels about a subject. Not everyone has access to the DVD commentaries, so his opinions are not available to everyone who watches the movies. Anyone who watches the movies however, will form their own opinion of them, and unless they have access to the commentaries, they might never know what Lucas' intentions or feelings about a scene actually are. The movies are the highest level of canon (with the Clone Wars a joint second) because unlike a novel or script, they do not require the audience to use their imagination to 'fill in' details. They tell the audience exactly what is going on in a totally undisputeable way. Someone might read a different meaning into a piece of dialogue, but when it comes down to physical actions, there can be no doubt as to what happened.