Lucifer hits the Gauntlet !!!

Originally posted by Mider
i dont see how TOAA would do that the presences guys seem just as powerful as anything TOAA can through, magic DC has magic users in spades, psychics with powers off the chart DC got that, a super being who can do almost anything spectre is that being, the presance has enemies though like the evil beast, and the source has enemies, such as the thing orion had to use the entire ALE to get rid of. when thanos had HOTU which is suppose to be the power of TOAA he took in all he could but he still could not absorb an outside reality outside the MU such as where adam warlock was as well as death who also exists outside of the MU from what the comic said, beside this mr masters never fully proved that death was multi death he just showed a few scans then said this and that about how dead was helping korvac and it was multi death but is there any proof no if LT is so powerful he would override death since death is the weakest of the cosmics or one of the weakest, dont believe me, she got pawned by in-betweener, grandmaster, dr strange if the vishanti are indeed of eternity they are just universal and they still beat her when strange summend big time spells on her, only good showings ive seen from her ive heard of her is when she beat walker.

We now for the fact know that The Presence isn't trully Almighty God, that alone puts it below TOAA.

We know that Yahweh isn't the one Supreme God, since now we know there are/is beyond Yahweh, but we don't know there is beyond TOAA. TOAA supposedly trully is the Supreme God (which they indicate to writer, so TOAA is trully Almighty, creator of completely everything, of Marvel Universe, The Presence is not, that alone puts it below TOAA).

Originally posted by Big Sexy
So if Yahweh is the presence, and since he did not create himself, then it would seem that the presence is not really the God of the DCU.

Excatly.

give me a break TOAA is boss of MU, the presence is boss of DCU, cross gen has its own multiverse, it doesnt put him below TOAA he's probably just refuring to the writers its a comic book seesh.

Originally posted by Mider
give me a break TOAA is boss of MU, the presence is boss of DCU, cross gen has its own multiverse, it doesnt put him below TOAA he's probably just refuring to the writers its a comic book seesh.

Look, there is no one beyond TOAA, but there is beyond The Presence, therefore TOAA>The Presence.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You keep saying that and ignoring the response i give to you every single time. Listen up X because i will not say it again. There is a Phoenix that exists at the universal level and there is a Phoenix that exists simultaneously beyond time and space:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19611251577.jpg&s=f10

From the very same arc youre referring to my friend 🙂

When Phoenix manifests on the physical plane and takes on a consciousness it becomes a life unto itself within the closed system of a universe and so it absorbs the life energy reserved for future generations.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18512210966.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18512434275.jpg&s=f10

Again a depiction of a Phoenix that is both a part of creation at the universal level and yet a force that looks down upon it from beyond and deems it her "handiwork"

The Phoenix of the White Hot Room manifests into the void as the Big Bang. It plays a part in the life cycle of a universe, but a universe and its cycle isnt the sum total of the Phoenix Force.

The recent UXM scan you posted refers to the Force itself as universal, with a polar opposite.

There are other scans that show she was born of the Big Bang, and IIRC that's what her bio states as well. That third scan you keep posting still refers to it as an external Force that she wields.

Having a base of operations that's multiversal be it the Starlight Citadel, the Panoptichron, or the WHR doesn't make you a multiversal entity. Her greatest feat is still repairing 616 by growing a future; and futures grow themselves when timelines are changed.

A being who can simply warp a universe doesn't need to die, incubate for more than a hundred years and then come back and fix a problem that never would have occurred had she not died in the first place. A being that can warp a universe just does it.

Enough BULLshit

Based on the facts, the Hierarchy.

In the Marvel Multiverse

1. TOAA
😮bviously:

2. HOTU
:Absorbed LT: nuff said...

3. Living Tribunal
:Because he's above the IG(like I proved in this thread)

4. IG
:Because it controlled the energies of the Ultimate Nullifier:

5. Ultimate Nullifier
😮bliterated and Remade the Multiverse in the blink of an eye.

6. Abraxas(he can only manifest...if one of the Galactus's in Multi-verse die).
:Because only the UN can kill him:

7. Multi-Eternity/Multi-Infinity(embodiments of the Multiverse/Time&Space)
:Because it's their Multiverse, Because they are the Multiverse, because they make up an infinite number of Universes(as you saw in the Cosmic Vortex)without them there's nothing, Because a Single Big Bang takes place in their immensity all the time. An entire Universe is infinitesimal in comparison to them.

8. Phoenix Force/Eternity/Infinity/Entropy/Death

9. Rest of the abstracts and so on.

Phoenix Force Greatest Feats:

1.:REPAIRING the M'Kraan Crystal:

When she did this(ON PANEL)the Crystal was a UNIVERSAL THREAT!...and it hadn't even been released when Phoenix REPAIRED IT......NOT contained it.

This Scan actually puts to rest the whole Mkraan Crystal event issue,
once thought to be the greatest feat for ol' GS in Marvel, LOL...but in fact...it was just a Universe that Phoenix saved. Here's the close up:

The MKraan Crystal As the Nexus of all Realities, the Crystal can allow travel between universes, but opening the Crystal could cause the mass of the neutron galaxy inside to suck in the entire universe and cause a chain-reaction across the multiverse, destroying all universes in existence.

Sounds like Wanda's Chaos Wave.....How anyone came to the conclusion that the Crystal is a Multiversal reset switch or whatever is beyond me.

2.:REPAIRING the Damage to an Orphan Universe:

She did NOT RESTRUCTURE or WARP or REMADE this "Orphan Universe"...she REPAIRED it....yes....the DAMAGE atom by atom.

Contrary to the ridiculous exaggeration that has been pumped about this feat by you know who....challenge the scan all you want.

3.😛rojecting the Excalibur Tower across the multiverse VIA the Interfaces across the Multiverse that were Aligned momentarily.

This is before the Phoenix even came into the picture:
It clearly says 'when a series of interfaces across the Multiverse were aligned, the localized energy fields merged..to Create an Energy Matrix.'

The Energy fields merge ON THEIR OWN...and the Interfaces across the Mulitverse align BY THEMSELVES...

AT the MOMENT of ALIGNMENT, THEN Feron called Phoenix to project the Tower", a less than monumental feat...considering it was the Energy Matrix(ON IT"S OWN)that allowes simultaneous existence in the Multiverse when the Interfaces Across are Aligned, Which Also happens ON it's OWN.....

While Necrom and Feron had fought, MERLYN had JUMPED INTO the Energy Matrix...

He was swept across the Multiverse and was finally able to control the Energy Matrix and created Otherworld.
At Otherworld Merlyn, along with his daughter Roma, over-looked the Multiverse.

MERLYN repaired the Energy Matrix which now has a permanent flow.....NOT Phoenix.

that should end this tread

there is no beyond TOAA and here i thought he was commander of the MU not the omniverse and umm he's a comic book character he was created by someone even if the presances doesnt name who made him it was the wrighters they also made TOAA give me a break he's the boss of the MU thats it not cross gen or any other multiverse thus he isnt above the presance thanks

Where does classic beyonder fit in that list? 😉

he would be above TOAA and the presance

Originally posted by Inhuman
Where does classic beyonder fit in that list? 😉

I wanted to just include a current roster...but here's another way to look at it.

1. TOAA

2. Possibly Equal to #1....but I'll put him at 2. Pre-Retcon Beyonder

3. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man

4. Thanos(HOTU)

5. 😉The Infinites/Beyonders/The Makers(possibly)

These are obscure characters...not much feats...difficult to gauge accurately.

5. Living Tribunal

and the rest is the same as the other list.

I believe the makers are equal in power to the celestials. They created the microverse.

Oh and for the Infinites i will have scans up soon by tomorrow.

Originally posted by Mordum
I believe the makers are equal in power to the celestials. They created the microverse.

Oh and for the Infinites i will have scans up soon by tomorrow.

I have to disagree man...

The Makers did create the Micro-verse...but check out how fascinating this is.

The Microverse was originally one of a number of dimensions accessed via shrinking beyond the limits of normal existence in the Earth dimension. These realms are not actually sub-atomic, as initially thought, but just accessed via the energy released by such shrinking.

These multiple microverses no longer exist. It was revealed during Peter David's Captain Marvel series that a thus far unseen conflict between Baron Karza and Thanos had resulted in all of the realms of the Microverse becoming merged into a single Mega-Universe referred to as the Microverse.

The Makers are definitely above Celestials...and above Abstracts.
They created these pocket Universes through out the Multiverse.

Originally posted by leonidas
dude, i didn't make anything up. i ASKED A QUESTION! getting paranoid in your old age . . .?

Yea man, it's all that hoover

I mean were you being sarcastic then?

I've been posting it like crazy....Magus creating a Universe, ect. ect.

Then you ask me, "when did he create his little pocket dimension"

That's either a snyde, sarcastic or "i'm not reading the posts" kinda question.

Originally posted by leonidas
okay, so you think the celestials, who were born from eternity, were given a universe to live in . . . outside eternity?

Absolutely.

There we go...

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, let me get this straight:

from a pocket dimension . . .

Universe....but proceed.

Originally posted by leonidas
SOMEWHERE (and you still never answered my question about eternity being comprised of lots of other dimensions/universes/realities though i guess you did say he must be made of at least SOME others . . .)

I believe there are different dimensions within Eternity,
I also believe that a dimension that resides within said Universe, is restricted to the laws of said Universe.

Now dimensions from other Eternitys...may be subjected to different laws or laws that defy our laws, possibly none at all.

There is no way that Universes are within Eternity the single Universe(I'm not sure if that's what you meant).

Realities are Universes.

Originally posted by leonidas
magus got 5 cubes. where did the cubes come from? 616?

No.

From different Actualities/Realities which are Universes

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, he made a universe and merged that universe he made with 'our' universe. do i have that right?

Correct.

With 5 Cosmic Containment Units he created an exact Duplicate of 616 Universe.

We know the unknown power are the 5 Cosmic Cubes.

Here he's merges 616 and the Duplicate in an instant...he clearly says it would have taken him our to do this with Cosmic Containment Units.
Incomplete IG remakes reality

Originally posted by leonidas
oh, and i realize you dismissed my explanation of an 'outside force' being something other than eternity himself being responsible for his state, but it really isn't that hard to believe. the cosmics were shocked at what they saw, and didn't seem to believe ANY 'outside force' capable of doing such a thing to eternity.

I didn't dismiss it.

I just completely disagree with that theory.

The scan tells the story....I said it meant Forces outside the Universe are controlling said Universe...
You said what you just said....what can I do if you wish to see it some other way.

😮n one occasion: by Galactus
"Powerful Eternity Catatonic"
"Artificially Induced by an OUTSIDE FORCE"...

On Another separate occasion: Quasar
Again...Here is Quasar "Reality Hopping"...trying to find Eternity

He does...He finds Eternity...
"He's Catatonic....It appears to be Induced by OUTSIDE FORCES"....

Why would Quasar have to jump from Reality to Reality to find 616 Eternity, if he's supposedly still within 616?
Quasar has access to Eternity(Single Universe)as much as Warlock while in 616.

It's obvious he must of been somewhere FAR from 616

so you seem to think 616 signifies eternity in his entirety and not simply the the 'earth dimension'? is dormammu's realm 616? mephisto's? what about the vishanti? i asked wwk the same thing. if you say that the vishanti's realm is not part of eternity, does that mean they are multiversal because they always help strange?

you're also saying that the term 'universe' is somehow different from dimension -- though i showed a scan where magus refers to earth's 'universe' as a dimension. elsewhere in the series, the watcher is talking to thor and referred to it as a 'plane' of reality.

thoughts? and if i sound sracstic at times, it's because you come off as overly defensive at times. 😉 we CAN disagree and not be 'enemies'.

this article i found (unofficial source, admittedly but still interesting) sums up my thoughts almost exactly in terms of what is and is not 616:

______________________________________________

Main article: Marvel Comics Multiverse:

The action of most Marvel Comics titles takes place in a continuity known as Earth-616. Note that in Marvel Comics, the concept of a continuity is not the same as "dimension" or "universe"; for example, characters like Mephisto and Dormammu hail from alternate dimensions and the Celestials from another universe, but they all nevertheless belong to Earth-616. A continuity should also not be confused with an imprint; for example, while the titles of some imprints, such as Ultimate Marvel, take place in a different continuity, some or all publications in other imprints, such as Epic Comics, Marvel MAX, and Marvel UK, take place within the Earth-616 continuity.

Other continuities besides Earth-616 include:

Age of Apocalypse
Alterniverse
Amalgam
The various alternate conitinuities visited in Exiles
Marvel Age
What If
What The--?! (formerly Not Brand Echh)
X-Men Adventures - Originally based on X-Men: The Animated Series, this universe went on to feature more original stories, and in its final issue, revealed itself to be the universe which existed prior to the current 616 reality, when it was destroyed by the fracturing of the M'Kraan crystal. The current edition of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe corroborates this.
X-Men: Evolution (based on the X-Men Evolution animated series)
X-Men: The Movie (adaptation of the X-Men movie)

_________________________________________

616 is OUR eternity, and everything in it. that includes myriad dimensions, planes, actualities, realities and universes. least that's how i've always seen it. if all these other 'dimensions and universes' exist outside eternity, are the rulers of those places all multiversal?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You just [b]love to twist around facts Galactic Storm. ❌

Here "sonny", let me help you out there. I beleive this is the quote you were referring to:

Thanos tells the Runner, "From its ashes rose all that is currently reality, in all its many forms" Notice he did NOT say "this reality". He said "currently reality". Meaning all that exists ![/B]

Im sorry but where in that quote was a statement defining the Infinity Beings demise as the thing that created the multiverse? 😕

I see no pluralisation. No conclusive definition or depiction of his death resulting in the formation of all realities, of a multiverse. All that is current reality is mentioned as a consequence. That however can be interpreted as either just 616 which is the current reality or it can be understandably be interpreted as the multiverse.

However given that

a) the line is open to interpretation

b) there is no other conclusive reference or depiction pertaining to the I Being being multiversal

c) The IG has performed no feats greater than the Universal

d) With the IG Thanos saw his ultimate goal achieved when he supplanted Eternitys position in the Infinity Gauntlet series

e) The Gems which are said to be reincarnations of the I beings might are referred to as the darkest secret of the universe

f) The IG had no power over Maelstrom, avatar of the universal abstract Oblivion:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19714061933.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19714073814.jpg&s=f10

g) The Infinity Gems have counterparts in alternate realities:

Quasar 30

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19714234370.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19714251177.jpg&s=f10

Plus the existence of What If Silver Surfer had the IG and What If Impossible Man had the IG (Please do a google search if it pleases you to do so.)

The IG is conclusively NOT multiversal. 😱

No need to humour you by addressing the rest of your post. I believe that brings this issue to a close. Anymore marvel related info you need, call GS and he will be ever so willing to help you out. ✅

He’s a great guy like that! 😄

Originally posted by leonidas
so you seem to think 616 signifies eternity in his entirety and not simply the the 'earth dimension'?

Look...let's not confuse each other with numbers.

Simply put...there is a Multiverse that is called Multi-Eternity(though he may be addressed as just Eternity)I agree...616 is Marvel's main stream continuity, and we should leave it at that.

There are other (realms & dimensions)...I said I believed there were some within Eternity(Single Universe)and others were not.

Atleza's domain is out side the Universe and Multiverse...yet it's miniscule in comparison with the Universe she anchors....one could easily label it a realm or dimension, yet it's outside even the Multiverse....

See those little purple balls, thats where Atleza is..and every little purple ball is the domain of the anchor...Yes...very much outside the Multiverse...untouched by space or time.....This is why Atleza, along with Gamora and Warlock were not absorbed by Thanos...the Multiverse are the Bigger balls obviously...

Actualities and Realities are Universes as I understand it.

Originally posted by leonidas
is dormammu's realm 616? mephisto's?

I'm not really sure...I don't like speculating to much but I would say Dormammu's isn't and Mephisto's is....but don't quote me on it.

Originally posted by leonidas
what about the vishanti? i asked wwk the same thing. if you say that the vishanti's realm is not part of eternity, does that mean they are multiversal because they always help strange?

Helping Dr Strange in comparison to creating Universes and then Merging Universes from Another Universe is quite a different thing wouldn't you say.

Also, Vishanti can never exercise their full might in our Universe through Dr Strange...for the Vishanti to be full power they have to be present themselves.

Magus Merged a Universe with another Universe from a Universe that was seperate from both.

Originally posted by leonidas
you're also saying that the term 'universe' is somehow different from dimension -- though i showed a scan where magus refers to earth's 'universe' as a dimension.

Sometimes that happens, it happened another time somewhere else.
But all those issues drill you with the fact that they are dealing with Actualities and Realities(Universes).

Is this a Dimension?

See the word Actuality.

Originally posted by leonidas
elsewhere in the series, the watcher is talking to thor and referred to it as a 'plane' of reality.

I agree.

A Reality is a Universe....you see even the Watcher says it.

Originally posted by leonidas
we CAN disagree and not be 'enemies'.

thumbup

peace and love dude.

Ummmmm 😕

Restating your opinion again and again after its already been thrashed doesnt make it any truer the gazillionth time around.

For the truth behind the energy matrix all interested visit here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=410642&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=28

As for the M'kraan crystal incident, there is only one crystal in the multiverse and it can and has blinked out all existence in an energy wave. Jeans actions saw that the wave didnt get a chance to affect the rest of the multiverse, meaning that while she first and foremost saved her universe, she ultimately held back a power which can and has wiped out the multiverse. It was a multiversal power she held in check and prevented from wiping her universe. Multiversal feat. ✅

Heres an old post on the matter:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The crystal is a multiversal force. When it is tampered with in one reality a wave of power sweeps across the multiverse blinking out reality after reality eventually causing all realities to collapse. Phoenixes actions halted this wave, effectively saving the entire multiverse.

Highlighting the fact that the crystal only got to effect 616 and then trying to refer to that as a universal feat is a futile exercise given that

a) That was only the case because of Phoenixes intervention

b) There is only one crystal, the wave of energy stems from one source, so whether Phoenix contained the power in 616 or after it had passed through another reality it is irrelevant. The power she contained was multiversal and can and has wiped out the multiverse. Multiversal feat. ✅

This same crystal was considered by Pre retcon Beyonder (Uncanny X-men 203) to have the power to revert him back to his primal state.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19511393773.jpg&s=f10

Given that the crystal has on panel been shown (X-men adventures 12) destroying the previous multiverse and going by Beyonders anger when Rachel decided not to use the crystal to end his time as a physical being there is no reason to doubt Beyonders opinion of the crystals power. All in all Phoenixes containment of the power is with that in mind made to look even more impressive. 😉

For the truth behind the repairing of the orphan universe which Mr Master funnily enough refuses to acknowledge is 616 (highlighting the fact that he hasnt read the comic he's arguing over and therefore highlighting also his arrogance) heres an old post on the matter that has yet to be addressed:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Here Comes Tomorrow was 616 150 years in the future. She cut this future away as a result separating 616 from its parent in the"megasystem" as stated on panel. Hence why it was referred to as an orphan.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18209533321.jpg&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18209545011.jpg&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18209562539.jpg&s=f5

She manipulated the "orphan universe" in the palm of her hand demonstrating control of it in its totality right down to the atomic level.

She then grew this universe a new future. How did she do this? She reached into the universe and changed Scotts reactions thereby growing the universe in her palm a new future.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19518495268.jpg&s=f10

But hold up a sec. Isnt that 616?

Try and tell me or the others you know what youre talking about. 😂

Love that post!! 😄

For the lowdown on why MrMasters hierarchy is a mess heres is another old post of mine:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The problem with your hierarchy is that a lot of the things you state you have proved, you have NOT. Proving things isn’t simply a case of posting scans and then stating your opinion of what’s going on in them. As ive said before more often than not scans are open to interpretation. With an ambiguous set of scans unless the point you’re trying to make is actually stated or conclusively depicted in another source then you cannot claim your interpretation of said scans to be the truth above the interpretations of others. This is the case with your LT vs IG, the Ultimate Nullifier and the Phoenix Force arguments. With all that in mind your hierarchy is faulty. Accept that your evidence is open to interpretation and wait until a time when the points youre trying to make are actually stated on panel. If that ever happens. If it doesn’t then while youre entitled to your opinion, please keep in mind that it is solely that.

I like how youre willing to accept there is a Multi-Eternity because of one or two depictions having been made on panel (but never in a bio) and yet the Phoenix Force has been defined and depicted as a multiversal source on panel (Phoenix Consciousness of New X-men, Shiar definition of Phoenix as a multiversal nexus of psionic power) and yet you dismiss that status because you say it has never been mentioned in a bio?

Regardless as its stated on panel that the abstracts are embodiments of concepts featured within reality a reality stated by the abstracts themselves to be kick started by Phoenix via the Big Bang then of course the Phoenix Force is greater than the abstracts. The fact that Jean has held the universe in the palm of her hand as if it was nothing makes it fallacious for you to try and argue anything but the Phoenix being greater than the abstracts.

The reasoning behind your positioning of Abraxas is incredibly illogical. So what if theres only one of him. That says nothing of power. Plus where does it say only the UN could kill him? And even if that was stated why would that place him above the abstracts when he doesn’t have the feats to justify that opinion and when he is a part of Eternity (who is referred to as his father)?

As valid now as the day it was first posted.

Thats enough for now 🙂

-GS 😎