Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I don't recall your response... but ok. That scan refers to nothing of the multiverse. I highly doubt that in the back in the 80s they were going "Lets make there be a multiversal Phoenix that's invisible and in a giant empty white room while Jean Grey flies around and gets shot at by the Shi'ar."The recent UXM scan you posted refers to the Force itself as universal, with a polar opposite.
There are other scans that show she was born of the Big Bang, and IIRC that's what her bio states as well. That third scan you keep posting still refers to it as an external Force that she wields.
Youre right. Those scans do not refer to the multiverse, that was not the intention behind their posting. You were trying to make out that the Phoenix was nothing but a power tied to 616. Those scans were posted to highlight that the Phoenix is more than just a force that is of reality, a part of a universes cycle, that it is simultaneously a force that lies beyond creation and determines its beginning and end. It manifests into the physical plane to play a part in the cycle, it is not present within a reality in its totality. That firebird we see flying around is not the sum total of the Phoenix Force. It is a celestial avatar. A representation of the Force.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Having a base of operations that's multiversal be it the Starlight Citadel, the Panoptichron, or the WHR doesn't make you a multiversal entity. Her greatest feat is still repairing 616 by growing a future; and futures grow themselves when timelines are changed.
Nope. Her greatest feat is binding the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal. As for her palm in the hand feat she did more than just grow a future in those scenes (which is the lesser part of the feat.) First off she casually amputated a realitys entire future fatally wounding it. The reality would have died had she not got further involved. She then manipulated the reality at a sub-atomic level as highlighted by the Consciousness' references to her manipulation of such a vast quantity of atoms and the gradual formation of the "orphan universe" in the palm of her hand. Then she reached in and altered Scotts reactions, growing 616 a new future.
You say that futures grow themselves when timelines are changed but Phoenix cut off the possibility of a future for 616, separating 616 from the rest of the multiverse as stated. Its an entirely different situation to some time traveller altering history resulting in an altered future.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
A being who can simply warp a universe doesn't need to die, incubate for more than a hundred years and then come back and fix a problem that never would have occurred had she not died in the first place. A being that can warp a universe just does it.
Who said Phoenix needs to do any of those things? 😕 Thats just what she did. It was stated over and over throughout the title that it is the way of the Phoenix to die to be reborn, nowhere were those things marked out as a necessity. If Phoenix didnt want to end its physical existence in issue 150 dont you think it could have prevented the destruction of its physical frame by Xorn? We've seen Phoenix manipulate a reality in the palm of her hand, amputate futures fatally wounding a universe as a mere side effect. We know the Force itself spawns realities. So please understand there is a procedure the Phoenix follows. Logan said to Jean on the space shuttle in New X-men #148 that with her power she could just go around creating universes. She said yes but thats not the way Phoenix works. Get the picture?
gs sayeth:
<<g) The Infinity Gems have counterparts in alternate realities:
Quasar 30
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main...0.jpg&s=f10
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main...7.jpg&s=f10
Plus the existence of What If Silver Surfer had the IG and What If Impossible Man had the IG (Please do a google search if it pleases you to do so.)
The IG is conclusively NOT multiversal. >>
i have no idea what the quasar scans are supposed to show gs, but i completely forgot the what ifs dealing with the IG. the fact that they have other continuity counterparts WOULD seem to indicate that they truly are universal.
that and the lack of definitive proof showing that magus affected 616 from a completely seperate continuity and thanos's assumption to eternity as his supreme evolution does seem to point to the fact that the ig is indeed only universal in scope.
what if 2 IG wielders met in a what if??
😱
Originally posted by leonidasi have no idea what the quasar scans are supposed to show gs,
They were further support of the IG being universal by depicting a battle in alternate reality between Thanos with the IG and Maelstrom as Oblivions avatar. The previous Quasar scans just highlighted how Thanos with the IG couldnt harm Oblivions avatar.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19716434360.jpg&s=f10
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19716444961.jpg&s=f10
Originally posted by leonidas
but i completely forgot the what ifs dealing with the IG. the fact that they have other continuity counterparts WOULD seem to indicate that they truly are universal.that and the lack of definitive proof showing that magus affected 616 from a completely seperate continuity and thanos's assumption to eternity as his supreme evolution does seem to point to the fact that the ig is indeed only universal in scope.
what if 2 IG wielders met in a what if??
😱
✅ Precisely
Originally posted by bbrem123
im not seein how its not multiversalu say because there r others in "what ifs"
what ifs r non-canon there just stating what would have happened if either got hold of the gauntlet instead of thanos
What Ifs depict alternate realities in Marvels multiverse where at certain points the timelines have diverged, events differ. The fact that Infinity Gauntlets exist in other realities conclusively dismisses the notion the the IG of 616 is multiversal as does the other points such as Thanos still seeing becoming Eternity as the ultimate goal. In support of this Eternity said in Infinity Watch that if he could draw on his totality then he could defeat Adam Warlock with the IG. This is conclusive evidence. There are other IGs in marvels multiverse. Impressive feats that you dont think should be possible for a universal power does not equate to conclusive evidence that the IG is multiversal.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What Ifs depict alternate realities in Marvels multiverse where at certain points the timelines have diverged, events differ. The fact that Infinity Gauntlets exist in other realities conclusively dismisses the notion the the IG of 616 is multiversal as does the other points such as Thanos still seeing becoming Eternity as the ultimate goal. In support of this Eternity said in Infinity Watch that if he could draw on his totality then he could defeat Adam Warlock with the IG. This is conclusive evidence. There are other IGs in marvels multiverse. Impressive feats that you dont think should be possible for a universal power does not equate to conclusive evidence that the IG is multiversal.
beyond that, it seems to rule out any possibility that the i-being created the multiverse when it was born. unless when it was born it created duplicate gems in every continuity within the multiverse. i was also never sure why the IG if it WAS multiversal, couldn't deal with malestrom . . .
incidentally, i like the term continuity. much less prone to misuse than 'universe'. each eternity is a distinct continuity. all continuities comprise the multiverse. that works quite well to my mind . . .
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All that is current reality is mentioned as a consequence. That however can be interpreted as either just 616 which is the current reality or it can be understandably be interpreted as the multiverse.
Atleast your admitting that Phoenix did not create the Multiverse.
I respect that.
SPECULATING HERE:
Going by on panel though I'm leaning towards the Infinity Being creating the Multiverse from it's suicide destruction....The only reference that has been made on panel about how the Multiverse came into came to be...is the Infinity Being story....
But when Captain Universe was explaining the origin of the Multi-Eternity(the Multiverse)on panel...Infinity Being was not mentioned...I must concede that.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The IG has performed no feats greater than the Universal
No need to address this...eveyone already know the Facts.
Infinity Gauntlet IS a Multiversal Power.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With the IG Thanos saw his ultimate goal achieved when he supplanted Eternitys position in the Infinity Gauntlet series
That was his Ultimate Mistake.
Everyone know that in the end he wanted to give up his power anyway.
Why would he want to become Eternity if Eternity got Blasted by the Infinity Gauntlet like a joke?
Thanos meant to do that...and you know this...to relinquish his "GOD" status...being Thanos though he had to do it dramatically, instead of just taking the darn glove off. lol.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The IG had no power over Maelstrom, avatar of the universal abstract Oblivion:
😆
Dude he just obliterated him...and Maelstrom clearly said the Infinity Gauntlet was more powerful than his Quantum Bands...Mephisto said he wasnt there...or was he? 😕 Marvel mysteries, it's the only time Maelstrom popped up during the entire IG series...just to do that...how silly.
Death probably brought him back...remeber she was pissed at Thanos...or perhaps Oblivion himself....they both have power over death/life so long as they exist.
Interesting that Oblivion wasn't even in this confrontation...is Oblivion the same Oblivion that swallows Universes as a hobby?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Infinity Gems have counterparts in alternate realities Quasar 30:
This one left me dumbfounded.
No where in those two Quasar scans does it mention Infinity Gauntlet...except in referencing the past by the narrator. 😂 gs...why do you do that.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Plus the existence of What If Silver Surfer had the IG and What If Impossible Man had the IG
Actually that Infinity Gauntlet was not the same one Thanos had.
It was LESS powerful by FAR....not the same one.oops
Here Impossible Man RUNS away from the Cosmics with the Infinity Gauntlet...Surfer even warns him about Eternity....
Runs out of the Universe really.
Impossible Man with the Infinity Gauntlet was only able to destroy a Galaxy....this is obviously not the same Gauntlet.
Again...this really demonstrates how weak this OTHER Infinity Gauntlet is.
Here Impossible Man forces Galactus to help him Re-create his home world...and Silver Surfer is worried because Eternity is coming...who will crush Impossible Man and his Gauntlet.
Here after Galactus Re-created the Impossible Man's world...he actually bargained the Gauntlet for this....he can destroy a Galaxy...but...he can't Re-create a Planet.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The IG is conclusively NOT multiversal.
I don't think it would be wise to say this anymore.
Originally posted by GalacticStormI haven't read it in a while. But on panel iirc all she did was kill Sublime, then Beast died, then Wolverine died.. so yeh Wolverine's dead there goes the future. Killing the future was a mistake on her part iirc. Maybe I recall wrong, I'll have to go back and look.
First off she casually amputated a realitys entire future fatally wounding it. The reality would have died had she not got further involved. She then manipulated the reality at a sub-atomic level as highlighted by the Consciousness' references to her manipulation of such a vast quantity of atoms and the gradual formation of the "orphan universe" in the palm of her hand. Then she reached in and altered Scotts reactions, growing 616 a new future.
Originally posted by GalacticStormSpeculatory.
You say that futures grow themselves when timelines are changed but Phoenix cut off the possibility of a future for 616, separating 616 from the rest of the multiverse as stated. Its an entirely different situation to some time traveller altering history resulting in an altered future.
Originally posted by GalacticStormThere's nothing to imply a lack of necessity. Had she not died at the hand of Xorn that future never would have come to pass, if there's no necessity her actions are superfluous. Making her one of the most inefficient cosmics ever. When did the Force spawn realities?
Who said Phoenix [B]needs to do any of those things? 😕 Thats just what she did. It was stated over and over throughout the title that it is the way of the Phoenix to die to be reborn, nowhere were those things marked out as a necessity. If Phoenix didnt want to end its physical existence in issue 150 dont you think it could have prevented the destruction of its physical frame by Xorn? We've seen Phoenix manipulate a reality in the palm of her hand, amputate futures fatally wounding a universe as a mere side effect. We know the Force itself spawns realities. So please understand there is a procedure the Phoenix follows. Logan said to Jean on the space shuttle in New X-men #148 that with her power she could just go around creating universes. She said yes but thats not the way Phoenix works. Get the picture? [/B]
Originally posted by leonidas
beyond that, it seems to rule out any possibility that the i-being created the multiverse when it was born. unless when it was born it created duplicate gems in every continuity within the multiverse.
. . .
What remained unknown to all but the most powerful cosmic beings is the fact that the gems were actually the remains of a once omnipotent being whose domain was any and all realities.
Originally posted by bbrem123
What remained unknown to all but the most powerful cosmic beings is the fact that the gems were actually the remains of a once omnipotent being whose domain was any and all realities.
but it has never been mentioned in current continuity as the creation point, and the being was reincarnated in the ultraverse and . . . didn't fare all that well . . . 😮
its seems to me that these two beings are different
Originally posted by Mr Master
Atleast your admitting that Phoenix did not create the Multiverse.
I respect that.SPECULATING HERE:
Going by on panel though I'm leaning towards the Infinity Being creating the Multiverse from it's suicide destruction....The only reference that has been made on panel about how the Multiverse came into came to be...is the Infinity Being story....
The last multiverse was destroyed and reset by the M'kraan crystal. That is conclusively how the current multiverse came into being. The events of X-men Adventures 12 are referenced in the bios of Phoenix, Dweller in Darkness, LT and Galactus. It is continuity. The I Being got retconned a long time ago. Read the material relevant to what youre debating. 🙂
Originally posted by Mr Master
But when Captain Universe was explaining the origin of the Multi-Eternity(the Multiverse)on panel...Infinity Being was not mentioned...I must concede that.
He wasnt explaining the Multi-Eternitys origin anyway. To do that he would've had to have defined how he came into being. That he did NOT do. He merely highlighted the fact that there actually is a Multi-Eternity. Bit of a difference there mate.
Originally posted by Mr Master
No need to address this...eveyone already know the Facts.
Infinity Gauntlet IS a Multiversal Power.
Nope everyone does not know that. Marking out feats you think shouldnt be achievable by a universal power does NOT equate to evidence of the IG being a multiversal power. Please understand that. 🙂
Originally posted by Mr Master
That was his Ultimate Mistake.Everyone know that in the end he wanted to give up his power anyway.
Why would he want to become Eternity if Eternity got Blasted by the Infinity Gauntlet like a joke?
Thanos meant to do that...and you know this...to relinquish his "GOD" status...being Thanos though he had to do it dramatically, instead of just taking the darn glove off. lol.
I like your speculation at the end there. When you become a writer for Marvel then i'll accept your dictation pertaining to the inner workings of Thanos of Titan. Until then SHHHHHHH!!!
The fact remains that he saw becoming Eternity as his ultimate goal despite having the IG. Dont dismiss Eternity my friend please remember that it was only an MBody that Thanos defeated, Eternity later said himself in Infinity Watch 1 that in his totality he was more than a match for the IG.
Originally posted by Mr Master
😆Dude he just obliterated him...and Maelstrom clearly said the Infinity Gauntlet was more powerful than his Quantum Bands...Mephisto said he wasnt there...or was he? 😕 Marvel mysteries, it's the only time Maelstrom popped up during the entire IG series...just to do that...how silly.
Correction!!! He said they MAY WELL surpass the full power of the Quantum bands. If anything that shows what little regard for the Igs power Maelstrom had.
Thanos didnt obliterate him at all. He was still there and mocked Thanos' attempts as is plain to see. It was Mephisto who cast doubt into Thanos mind about Maelstrom actually surviving.
Heres a link to the Handbook writers site which supports my take on the events and gives a issue by issue summary.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/maelstrom.htm
Not only as we saw did Thanos' attack have no effect, but as you can seee from the summaries Maelstrom was still around issues later. The avatar of a universal abstract shrugged off Thanos attempt to kill him.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Death probably brought him back...remeber she was pissed at Thanos...or perhaps Oblivion himself....they both have power over death/life so long as they exist.
Speculation. Unjusified as well given that there was no depiction of anything other than Maelstrom shrugging off Thanos' attack. None of that here mate. 😄
Originally posted by Mr Master
Interesting that Oblivion wasn't even in this confrontation...is Oblivion the same Oblivion that swallows Universes as a hobby?
Im not here to fill you in on the whole storyline. Ive posted scans of Maelstron surviving Thanos attacks and a site from the handbook writers supporting my post. Its now up to you to check up on any additional information by obtaining the comic yourself. ✅
Originally posted by Mr Master
This one left me dumbfounded.No where in those two Quasar scans does it mention Infinity Gauntlet...except in referencing the past by the narrator. 😂 gs...why do you do that.
Irrelevant given Thanos' previous failure in 616 to destroy Maelstrom and the fact that there are IG's in other realities as i have shown.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually that Infinity Gauntlet was not the same one Thanos had.It was LESS powerful by FAR....not the same one.oops
Here Impossible Man RUNS away from the Cosmics with the Infinity Gauntlet...Surfer even warns him about Eternity....
Runs out of the Universe really.
Impossible Man with the Infinity Gauntlet was only able to destroy a Galaxy....this is obviously not the same Gauntlet.
Again...this really demonstrates how weak this OTHER Infinity Gauntlet is.
Here Impossible Man forces Galactus to help him Re-create his home world...and Silver Surfer is worried because Eternity is coming...who will crush Impossible Man and his Gauntlet.Here after Galactus Re-created his Impossible Man's world...he actually bargained the Gauntlet for this....he can destroy a Galaxy...but...he can't Re-create a Planet.
Im not going to humour you and allow a digression from the important points by addressing your speculation here. Youre missing the point here. There are other IGs in the multiverse. The IG of 616 is NOT multiversal if it has counterparts in other realities. As per current continuity the I being is of creation anyway. He had no part in the formation of Marvel. For more details read the Ultraforce crossovers. Until then i rest my case. 😱
