Lucifer hits the Gauntlet !!!

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
😐

Now it's subatomic. Extrapolations, extrapolations. Haughty as usual. I don't see why civility is a foreign concept to you. For one thing it's not a rebuttal it's an alternative viewpoint - your inability to accept alternative viewpoints is beyond me. The appearance of some great and meaningful level of satisfaction from these threads is also rather strange.

Im remarkably civil my friend, as long as im shown the same level of respect. Set a negative tone for the proceedings well dont complain about my resultant manner. 😉

I accept alternative viewpoints just fine, as long as they are justified and supported on panel. Both yours and WWK's viewpoints are the result of selectively picking out what you want to hear from scenes whilst completely ignoring relevant on panel statements and depictions. In cases like that if i see such viewpoints put forward in a thread then of course i will argue against it. 🙂

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The situation is different, but the action is the same (changing an event) through a different means, the outcome is the same. Scott's decision/Here Comes Tomorrow is analogous to the other two events/timelines.

The conditions are completely different therefore trying to equate the actions within those two different scenarios is again, very naive. The different condition perhaps explains why Jean had to manipulate the universe at an atomic level, in order to grow the universe a new future, whereas others have done the same by merely altering events.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
This thread is ridiculously long about characters few people care about. The only reason it persists is because of arrogance and stubbornness on both sides.

Now that id agree with. 😱

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im remarkably civil my friend, as long as im shown the same level of respect. Set a negative tone for the proceedings well dont complain about my resultant manner. 😉

I accept alternative viewpoints just fine, as long as they are justified and supported on panel. Both yours and WWK's viewpoints are the result of selectively picking out what you want to hear from scenes whilst completely ignoring relevant on panel stetments and depictions. In cases like that if i see such viewpoints put forward in a thread then of course i will argue against it. 🙂

The conditions are completely different therefore trying to equate the actions within those two different scenarios is again, very naive. The different condition perhaps explains why Jean had to manipulate the universe at an atomic level, in order to grow the universe a new future, whereas others have done the same by merely altering events.

Now that id agree with. 😱

You accept alternative viewpoints, as long as they agree with your biased interpretation of every word and every pencilmark. You accept alternative viewpoints, when they agree with you. A contradiction in terms. You argue endlessly against anything that could threaten a status you have given the Phoenix, as if it actually means anything, when the pragmatic would disagree with but accept that others have opinions and interpretations that differ.

The action and outcome are the same, making Cyclops decision/Here Comes Tomorrow analogous to the other two events/timelines. There is no indication of an active "growing" of a pre-ordained future. The future results from the decision made.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
There is no cause and effect to your arrogance. It simply is. To deny such is fallacious.

You accept alternative viewpoints, as long as they agree with your biased interpretation of every word and every pencilmark. You accept alternative viewpoints, when they agree with you. A contradiction in terms. You argue endlessly against anything that could threaten a status you have given the Phoenix, as if it actually means anything, when the pragmatic would disagree with but accept that others have opinions and interpretations that differ.

Oh yes, im not denying im arrogant, im arrogant as hell! 🙂

What i am denying is that im unreasonably rude or uncivil. Im never the one to initiate any negativity. The viewpoints i accept are those which have strong on panel support. Viewpoints such as mine. 😄

Viewpoints based on a selective acceptance of the relevant on panel info gets the 👇 from me. 🙂

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The action and outcome are the same, making Cyclops decision/Here Comes Tomorrow analogous to the other two events/timelines. There is no indication of an active "growing" of a pre-ordained future. The future results from the decision made.

It does indeed. However in order to go about making that future possible, a manipulation at an atomic level was required, therefore the growing of a new future in Jeans case and the others differs both in action and condition. 🙂

The action was the same, changing an event, the method of the action differed. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Action and outcome are the same.

I noticed you smiley-crutch a lot, like whob and his whobsocks in the GDF.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The action was the same, changing an event, the method of the action differed. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Action and outcome are the same.

The actions she undertook in order to grow a new future in that situation clearly werent the same. The outcome however was.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I noticed you smiley-crutch a lot, like whob and his whobsocks in the GDF.

No crutch my friend. I just really like smilies 🙂

I noticed that when you've got nothing relevant to the debate left to say, when youre backed up in a corner devoid of options you tend to try and get personal. Most mature debators would just leave a thread 👇

It wasn't personal, just an observation. Somewhat hypocritical using a thinly veiled insult on another's maturity and while telling someone they're getting personal. Especially considering the number of these thinly veiled insults riddled throughout your posts. You presume too much.

Again this strange notion that you have people backed into corners etc. and this tone of a huge meaningful satisfaction. When for one thing people simply don't bother stating they disagree with you because you attack them for it. Argumentum ad baculum is poor form. And for another, it's a versus forum, people really don't care.

If you want a debate, perhaps you should venture outside the versus forum, maybe you'd like to share your views on the Israel/Lebanon crisis or some other matter besides a fiery bird.

Action = change an event
Method = go back in time to do it/manipulate matter from afar etc.
Outcome = timeline divergence

I never made assertions on the method. Only the action and the outcome. The method only serves to indicate inefficiency.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It wasn't personal, just an observation. Somewhat hypocritical using a thinly veiled insult on another's maturity and while telling someone they're getting personal. Especially considering the number of these thinly veiled insults riddled throughout your posts.

Again this strange notion that you have people backed into corners etc. and this tone of a huge meaningful satisfaction. When for one thing people simply don't bother stating they disagree with you because you attack them for it. Argumentum ad baculum is poor form. And for another, it's a versus forum.

Just telling it how it is mate. You dont like it then dont get involved. I must have touched a nerve for you to throw a pretentious dissertation my way. Its been months since you've said anything meaningful in debate with myself. These days you tend to hang back and wait for any and every passing bandwagon you can hop on to share your anti-Phoenix views, whilst at the same time maintaining a facade of maturity and intellectual superiority. Doesnt wash with me 👇

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If you want a debate, perhaps you should venture outside the versus forum, maybe you'd like to share your views on the Israel/Lebanon crisis or some other matter besides a fiery bird.

If i want to debate real world issues, issues that really matter then the last place i'll do that would be over the net. Forgive me for preferring to debate such matters with individuals called friends. 🙁

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Action = change an event
Method = go back in time to do it/manipulate matter from afar etc.
Outcome = timeline divergence

I never made assertions on the method. Only the action and the outcome. The method only serves to indicate inefficiency.

Nope. The method highlights the differing conditions which necessitated a different approach.

Method= Manipulate universe on an atomic level before changing an event

Outcome= New future.

There was no future to diverge from, she'd cut away the continuums future therefore its an entirely different circumstance.

Thats all for now

-GS 😱

How thoroughly amusing. The phrases "pretentious dissertation" and "facade of maturity and intellectual superiority" in a post by GS. I take it you're a fan of dramatic irony.

I don't "debate" with you about Phoenix - the only thing you ever really debate about - because I don't care enough too. Few people do. No one can be bothered putting up with the arrogance.

The present clearly still existed. The future was amputated after she disinfected etc from that point onwards. She changed the outcome of an event diverging a pre-existing timeline. She did not create the future, she has not pre-ordained the rest of 616 continuity.

This was fun. Let's do it again some time.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
How thoroughly amusing. The phrases "pretentious dissertation" and "facade of maturity and intellectual superiority" in a post by GS. I take it you're a fan of dramatic irony.

I don't "debate" with you about Phoenix - the only thing you ever really debate about - because I don't care enough too. Few people do. No one can be bothered putting up with the arrogance.

😖leep:

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The present clearly still existed. The future was amputated after she disinfected etc from that point onwards. She changed the outcome of an event diverging a pre-existing timeline. She did not create the future, she has not pre-ordained the rest of 616 continuity.

This was fun. Let's do it again some time.

As we've seen through characters like Cable, Stryfe the future already exists in Marvel. Theres a difference between changing an event resulting in a divergent future timeline and changing events to actually make a future in the first place. I never said she created the actual future outright ive never said that, thats just you getting caught up in your anti-phoenix tirade and hearing what you want to hear.

This is getting pointless now anyway. The fact remains that yes Phoenix did grow 616 a new future by altering events, however in order to go about doing that, she manipulated 616 at an atomic level in the palm of her hand. Thats really all that matters. 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]Who said she repaired the crystal on a whim? 😕

Not me son. Another delusion. ✅

Phoenix repaired the crystal using the souls of the X-men to anchor herself to the physical plane. The X-men merely gave her the oppurtunity to go about repairing the crystal. Given that the X-men didnt actually take part in the repairing process, given that they didnt bolster her power in any fashion your point is as ever redundant. 🙂

What part of need help don't you get? Without the X-Men could she have repaired it alone? 🙄

Youre talking as if Legion directly beat down Phoenix to prevent her from repairing the crystal. As ever another flop attempt at humour and another irrelevant comment to the thread. 👇

Who's talking as if Legion directly beat down Phoenix?

That's right, not me sonny. Most know Legion killed Xavier and lead to AOA and preventing many from taking their regular timestream roles.

Perfect example of what happens when you read a scan out of context without taking into consideration that which has come before. On the previous page Jahf marks out that which is causing the collapse of realities. It is the "draft" caused by the crystal being tampered with in 616. He says that if the "door" was left open in any one reality then this draft would eventually reach the others affecting them.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/20910231048.jpg&s=f10

On the next page which you naively focused all of your attention on, Gambit says wouldn’t someone have noticed this draft Jahf goes on to elaborate by saying that Bishop did and gives Phoenixes non appearance in this alternate reality as the reason why the crystal has basically gone into meltdown.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/20910302228.jpg&s=f10

He then says that when the actual reality fell it was only a matter of time before the others were affected. What did Jahf mark out as the thing that sweeps across the multiverse affecting these realities? Did he or did he not say that if the “door” was left open in 616 then the draft would eventually reach other realities ? Therefore if Jahf says that when the actual reality fell it was only a matter of time before the others were affected given that the topic of the conversation was this draft and given that its marked out as the thing that’s affecting these realities previously would you not be completely unjustified in claiming that another unmentioned factor is responsible for the collapse of these realities? A little common sense does wonders in debates. Kids these days. 🙄

Admittedly I'll take those comments regarding this part back.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18...21.jpg&s=f5

Here Jean talks of having cut away 616’s future. The Consciousness tells her that her actions dealt a fatal blow to the universe and that it is dying. Jean asks if things are really going to take a turn for the worse, if this “Here Comes Tomorrow” future is what is fated for her friends, she says that her friends deserve better. She thinks it’s all over for them, before the Consciousness tells her there’s hope, she can grow a better future.

This part we agree on.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18...11.jpg&s=f5

On the next page the Consciousness elaborates and tells her what this task involves. He tells her that telekinetic control of that number of atoms isn’t easy even for a White Phoenix.

It does but there's no indication of her task.

As the panels progress we see a glowing disc-like structure come together in her hand. The Consciousness tells her that it is the orphan universe. While we don’t know what Jean did specifically, what we do know conclusively is that her task involved manipulation of the universe at an atomic level, hence the Phoenix Consciousness’ comments and the depiction of a structure coming together in her hand.

She didn't even do a thing in this panel. Her task involved some kind of manipulation but NOT IN THIS PANEL. You're bringing in your own cuckoo ideas in about this panel. She even says: "Did I HAVE TO FIX something that was dying?" "WHAT IS IT?"

If she was manipulating the universe at an atomic level, why would she ASK about needing to fix something that was dying? Or even questioning what it is? It's obvious to every reader that she doesn't even know what's going on.

Then the nex panel it answers her question: "a badly wounded universe." This further proves she didn't know what was anything yet because how could she manipulate something and not know what it is?

Then it tells her "Phoenix work." Which leads back to my comment that she didn't do anything in this page yet. And this is further backed up by the next page where Jean ASK, "But...but WHAT'S THAT SUPPOSE TO MEAN?" It's clear that she HASN'T "WORKED" it and even clearer when the voice tells her what "work" means: "That Henry's heart is broken that SCOTT SUCCUMBS TO LONELINESS AND DOUBT that all is lost unless..." UNLESS WHAT? "

Does this sound like she knew what was going on or that she FIXED anything yet? It doesn't.

Your interpretation renders the comments and depiction completely redundant, they are not taken into consideration. Im saying whilst we don’t know what she did exactly there was a manipulation of some fashion on the aforementioned scale.

Jean herself doesn't even know what's going on. This feat has been championed by you as the highest feat in comics and greater than Lucifer or the gauntlet's feats. Yet here it is, you don't even know what's happening or what she did. She herself isn't sure as to what's going on.

And one more thing, has it crossed your mind ever that the "control of all those atoms" was refering to this last seen where she manipulated a critical point the universe's timeline so that Scott wanted to continue on living? The problem is that there's no future. Fix that crucial point and everything else is fixed.

"No. It's just..."

"HA" - 🙄 Can you say EUREKA? She finally figured out what it all means and gets to "work." Finally doing something. "Live Scott."

Next Page

Next Page

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

This is getting pointless now anyway. The fact remains that yes Phoenix did grow 616 a new future by altering events, however in order to go about doing that, she manipulated 616 at an atomic level in the palm of her hand. Thats really all that matters. 😄

The fact that she needs to manipulate atoms to reach back in time and change Scott's mind means she isn't all powerful as you claim she is. It remains that there was no future after she amputed it. Change Scott's mind, at that crucial point, and "Here comes Tomorrow" will never result, and a new future comes about to fill the one she cut away. What's more to say?

Give me a time machine and Xavier's powers and I can fill that future void. 😮‍💨

Since it's stated that 616 became an orphan universe(Seperated from it's parents) shouldn't she have at least sewn it back first onto the "megasystems" then change the crucial point in history in to ignite a new future....? O_o

BTW Was it Wanda that stopped her own Chaos Wave? Because that feat seems so similar to the reversing the 616 spillage into other universes.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Vertigo's Lucifer, most of you know about him already. Check out Draco's Lucifer Respect Thread if you're unfamiliar.

[B]Here's the list: (Not particularly in Heirarchical power order.....just one fight after another...can Lucifer progress to the end? )

1) Charon and Lawbringers from Negation (Crossgen Comics)- Can he singlehandedly defeat the entire Negation Empire?

I don´t really know the hell he are going to send these guys to is, but I do know that it will be like heaven after he´s done with them.

[QUOTE]2) Thanos with Classic IG plus Marvel cosmics- Lucifer enters Marvel Universe 616 where Thanos is God of that Reality. Can Lucifer defeat Thanos who will be allied with Galactus, Chaos and Order, Mistress Death, The Stranger, Love and Hate, and all the Celestials combined?

Lucifer is beneath God.

3) Abraxis with Ultamate Nullifiers Let's say Abraxis at full power with copies of Ultamate Nullifiers at his disposal. Can he delete Lucifer in battle, or will Lucifer come out on top?

Lucifer would be able to take this.

4) The Disciple, Zera, Mammon, the Forgotten Ones, Abdiel, and the Man of Miracles- Can Lucifer defeat these entities from Spawn combined?

Yes...

5) Kali and Urizen - at thier full power, both are above Death. Urizen devours spiritual energy, all kinds of spiritual energy, he has the ability to kill the imagination. Kali is the Goddess of Death and Destruction, the cycle of life and death, no God or Demon has ever beaten her yet. Will Lucifer be the first?

Lucifer would

6) Bloodlusted Spectre Spectre is fkn furious and has a bone to pick with Lucifer. Is there any way Lucifer can neutralize Spectre, and if so, how?

Spectre at maximum, or at least some, rage could take him down.

7) Combined Forces of Heaven, Hell,and Greeworld- If Lucifer defeats round 4, let's say thier resurrected.....excluding God, Satan, and Urizen.......can Lucifer defeat the combined might of both Heaven and Hell together? This would include Spawn (any age), Angela, all redeemers, all the forgotten ones, Abdiel, The Disciple, Zera, Malebolgia, Mammon etc. Anyone who has ever been a part of any of these three realms !

Perhaps, Michael is still in there.

8) Bloodlusted Micheal Can Lucifer outsmart, defeat, destroy, or surpass his brother in any way?

Lucifer...

9) White Pheonix of the Crown - Can he destroy or subdue her?

She would absorb him.

10) Goddess Dawn with Sword She used this to cut off Ahura Mazda (God's) hand off. With this sword, is Dawn even capable of ending Lucifer, or would her attack be futile?

Lucifer would outsmart her.

11)Darkseid with ALE, Parallex, Molecule Man, and Mr. Myx Can Lucifer outsmart and defeat these reality controllers?

As long as it is post-retcon Molecule man, than yes.

12) Saint of Killers Is Lucifer subject to this guy's attacks?

Someone is going to enjoy this fight and it isnt the saint.

13) The Great Evil Beast- Could Lucifer trick the GEB into defeating itself?

No.

14) Classic Beyonder- Could Lucifer defeat him in ANY way shape or form? [/B]

He´s millions of times the power of the Marvel Multi-verses combinded.
In Marvel vs DC #1 where the Amalgam Brothers (Pre-retcon) was supose to be TOAA and the Presence -- So the writher´s gave the brothers the power of TOAA and the Presence, which was the Marvel and DC Multi-verses, in other words two Multiverses. -- Beyonder was millions (-not million, million´s) of times the power the Multiverse.
Lucifer would be banished from the Omni-verse.

not true. the extent of the beyonder's power was the ability to destroy the entire multiverse by destroying the entire space time continuem and he would also be destroyed in the process. these are the words of reed richards which the celestials knew were true. beyonder was slightly more powerful than the whole marvel multiverse but lucifer has megaversal power.

n phoenix cant do shit to lucifer. shes just a universal abstract. uve been listening to too much of gs's shit.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
not true. the extent of the beyonder's power was the ability to destroy the entire multiverse by destroying the entire space time continuem and he would also be destroyed in the process.

Never heard this before.

Can you tell me where you read this?

I have every issue Beyonder ever appeared in, crossovers and all.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
these are the words of reed richards which the celestials knew were true.

These are Reed's words.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
beyonder was SLIGHTLY more powerful than the whole marvel multiverse but lucifer has megaversal power.

Beyonder is Millions of Times More Powerful than ALL the Rest of the Multiverse Combined, that's MARVEL Writers talking NOT Beyonder hyperboling.

pre-retcon Beyonder respect thread in here....(complete)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t412978.html

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
What's more to say?

Give me a time machine and Xavier's powers and I can fill that future void. 😮‍💨

spliff

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
What part of need help don't you get? Without the X-Men could she have repaired it alone? 🙄

The feat was the binding of the energies contained within the M'kraan crystal. Jean had no power given to her to accomplish this feat, she was not aided in anyway when it came to performing the actual feat. Jean did however use the souls of the X-men to bind herself to the physical plane so that she could go about performing the feat. The crux of the matter is that the feat itself, the binding of the multiversal power of the crystal was achieved by Jean and Jean alone. Your point is redundant.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Who's talking as if Legion directly beat down Phoenix?

That's right, not me sonny. Most know Legion killed Xavier and lead to AOA and preventing many from taking their regular timestream roles.

Well if thats the case your previous comments:

" By the way who stopped the Phoenix from repairing the M'Krann? Oh that's right, LEGION killing Xavier"

were utter garbage with no relevance to this thread whatsoever.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Admittedly I'll take those comments regarding this part back.

The fact that you can admit you spoke utter shit shows youre taking those first steps towards becoming a man. Good boy. 😱

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
This part we agree on.

Well you had no choice but to because I was right.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It does but there's no indication of her task.

She didn't even do a thing in this panel. Her task involved some kind of manipulation but NOT IN THIS PANEL. You're bringing in your own cuckoo ideas in about this panel. She even says: "Did I HAVE TO FIX something that was dying?" "WHAT IS IT?"

Now here’s where we disagree and the accuracy of your posts inevitably falls by the wayside.

The task had been marked out already; the task was highlighted by the Consciousness before it went about telling her how to go about performing said task. It told her that telekinetic control of all of those atoms wasn’t as easy a task as it sounds in training, even for the White Crown Phoenix. After saying that we saw over three panels Jean go from having nothing in her hand, to having disparate globules of energy, to having what we are told is the “badly wounded orphaned universe”. Whatever manipulation was performed by the Phoenix on this universe, it was performed at the atomic level, within the palm of her hand. All we know is that it was performed in an effort to fulfil the aforementioned task and that’s all we need to know.

Your attempt at a rebuttal (i.e. Jean doesn’t seem to know what’s going on therefore she couldn’t have started to fix anything) stems from insufficient knowledge regarding the Phoenix and the story arcs you’re debating over. In New X-men it was earlier established and depicted that the Phoenix Consciousness resides within Jean Greys psyche, sometimes taking control of her actions and speaking for her:

New X-men 128

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21214270711.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21214281772.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21214295561.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21214311612.jpg&s=f10

New X-men 139

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21214481949.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21214500726.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21214505118.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21214514952.jpg&s=f10

Jean later clarified by talking of what she knew about her relationship with the power:

New X-men 148:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21212434064.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/21212452266.jpg&s=f10

Jean says that the Consciousness talks to her and if she gets too wrapped up in the power that the Consciousness takes over. This, all readers of the title you’re debating over are well aware of. When Jean draws on too much power when she takes on things beyond the limits of the human psyche then the Consciousness takes control and the Jean Grey persona takes a backseat.

In the Here Comes Tomorrow scans we saw Jean conversing with the Consciousness, we saw it telling her what needs to be done to save her native reality, we saw the Consciousness talk of how the manipulation of all of those atoms wasn’t as easy as it sounds in training even for someone as powerful as Jean and yet the task was performed regardless in the palm of her hand with Jean asking the Consciousness about what’s going on. The Consciousness then told Jean that she needs to sever her ties with 616 and movie on, hence the “water it with your hearts blood”, “Live Scott, Live” comments and Jeans alteration of Scott’s reactions, resulting in him choosing a life with Emma Frost, thereby creating a new timeline to replace the one she had cut away. 😄