Lucifer hits the Gauntlet !!!

As we know the Amalgam brothers was supose to symbolize the unity of Marvel and DC.
Before the retcon of these beings they were the one above all and the Presence.

DC vs. Marvel issue #1:

Powers/Abilities: Considering that the Brothers are the sum total of everything in the Marvel universe (and the rest of its multiverse-- see comments) and DC universe, they are incalculably powerful, and even such cosmic entities such as Eternity are like insects to them. The Living Tribunal, the most powerful being known in the Marvel Universe, was barely able to stall them, and was beneath their notice.

As you can see here, the one above all and the Presence is nothing but the total sum of everything in their multi-verse.
So together they are the sum of two multi-verses.
Beyonder was millions of time the power of the multi-verse.
And millions (plural) = >2 (two millions or more).

So basicly classic Beyonder was at least a million times more powerful than the Amalgam´s together, in other words the one above all and the Presence together.

Actully, I partially agree wtih GS that when Phoenix was manipulating the 616 Universe atom by atom is one of the greatest feat. I mean what Phoenix did is far more impressive than let's say destroying the Universe.

Only feat I give to top this is THOTU destroying all major cosmic forces (except Phoenix Force).
Than P-R Beyonder destroying some major cosmic forces.

Now, it says Phoenix Force saved all existence from eternal damnation. OK, we can say, Pheonix Force is the one who saved Universe from Eternal damantion. How do we know that Phoenix Force wasn't doing that to all universes in Multiverse?
Maybe that is why it says all existence, because it was saving all Universes from Eternal damnation.
Phoenix Force enabled Eternity to preserve Galactus.

Than it did save Universe from M'Kryann crystal, Mulitversal power and one of the greatest power in Multiverse.

And all major cosmic forces which were destroyed against THOTU (except Pheonix Force), why, was it because writer forgot it (somehow I doubt that they just forgot PF), or because Phoenix Force cannot be destroyed and is higher power.

But because we didn't see PF destroyed by THOTU, we can say it wasn't destroyed, the only major cosmic force that wasn't destroyed by THOTU.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Actully, I partially agree wtih GS that when Phoenix was manipulating the 616 Universe atom by atom is one of the greatest feat. I mean what Phoenix did is far more impressive than let's say destroying the Universe.

Phoenix REPAIRED the damage to a Universe, or did she?

Which any Phoenix Avatar can do.

Which even Gamora(a Mortal)CAN DO, with the aid of Galactus.

So from now on Xplosive add this to one of your greatest feats list. 😆

Originally posted by Xplosive
Only feat I give to top this is THOTU destroying all major cosmic forces (except Phoenix Force).

Wow...the only feat that tops a universe being REPAIRED is Thanos absorbing all the cosmics. hysterical

"(except Phoenix Force)"

And you never will see PF anywhere when the mighty powers of the Universe are involved...

The only event that Phoenix has ever been involved in that threatened a universe was the Mkraan Crystal saga...An X-Men comic ofcourse.

Originally posted by Xplosive
P-R Beyonder destroying some major cosmic forces.

Like Multi-Death, who also was NOT ABSORBED by THOU.

Ok.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Now, it says Phoenix Force saved all existence from eternal damnation. OK, we can say, Pheonix Force is the one who saved Universe from Eternal damantion. How do we know that Phoenix Force wasn't doing that to all universes in Multiverse?
Maybe that is why it says all existence, because it was saving all Universes from Eternal damnation.

😂

This will not even be addressed.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Phoenix Force enabled Eternity to preserve Galactus.

Not on panel.

I'll give you both accounts that have been depicted ON PANEL.
If you can find me just ONE comic where this is drawn, I'll agree with you, but since I know your basing this idea on bios or handbooks I know you can't.

Tell me where if anywhere does it mention Phoenix supposedly "enabling Galen to incubate in the Cosmic Egg"....how about even JUST Saving Galactus...This is the SECOND time they depicted Galactus's Origin On Panel.

And this is the ORIGINAL depiction of Galactus's ORIGIN.

See anything different?

Yea me neither.

Look hard...and realize Phoenix is NOT even mentioned during the Galactus history lesson.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Than it did save Universe from M'Kryann crystal, Mulitversal power and one of the greatest power in Multiverse.

Multiversal? Again NOT On Panel.

"An explosion that scatters stellar mass out across a NEW Virgin Universe"
Exactly A UNIVERSE...but NOT a Multiverse.

On Panel it's a Universal threat...

This is a more recent acknowledgment of the Mkraan's capacity.

Besides the FACT that Phoenix needed 8 X-Men to help her do the job, but let's just overlook this....lol.

Originally posted by Xplosive
And all major cosmic forces which were destroyed against THOTU (except Pheonix Force), why, was it because writer forgot it (somehow I doubt that they just forgot PF), or because Phoenix Force cannot be destroyed and is higher power.

(except for Death too, but who's counting)

Phoenix is NEVER around when reality is on the line.
Well, except for when the Mkraan Crystal is acting up....lol.

Originally posted by Xplosive
But because we didn't see PF destroyed by THOTU, we can say it wasn't destroyed, the only major cosmic force that wasn't destroyed by THOTU.

Death WAS THERE...And WAS NOT DESTROYED.

While PF was incognito...probably hiding with her fiery tail between her legs..

THOTU(power of the Supreme)can't defeat/destroy her you think.
That's cool, let's just bring Magneto in...Yes I know this is a mere Mutant, what can he do that the Supreme Power can't?

.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

What event do you believe initiates a universes life cycle? [/B]

Depends on which universe your talking about.

As far as I've seen the Phoenix's big bang references has only been universal and relating to the 616. Initiating the multiverse or the first universes in the MU? TOAA!!! Duh!!!

Who was responsible for concepts such as life, death, infinity, ressurection, time, space, mind, soul, oblivion, existence, etc.? Who's Marvel's top being? That's right TOAA.

Whose the protector of the Multiverse?

Oh snap! The Living Tribunal, a servant of TOAA.

Who exist within TOAA's creation?

That's right kiddie. The many concepts that make up existence. 😱

Now here's my question to you. Who created the Phoenix Force?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Again you have no counter therefore you dismiss and mock. Incredibly lame 👇

The feat was the binding of the crystals power. Before Phoenix performed the feat she bound herself to the physical plane using the souls of the X-men. Show me where its stated that Phoenixes energies were bolstered by an outside source. Show me where its stated an outside source actually possessed Phoenix and completed the task for her. Unless you can provide some evidence pertaining to Phoenix not being able to bind the crystal with her own energies then you really dont have a case. Good luck with that mate! 😄

So if they weren't their she could have done it on her own. Is your claim.

Addressing multiple issues and responding to empty insults in one reply gives the likes of yourselves the oppurtunity to both gloss over and/or avoid addressing relevant issues as you have been doing throughout. [/B]

I admitted I was wrong and took back what I said. Then you went on some stupid lecture to me about my man when yourself have been bias in picking quotes and deluding the fact. Don't get all righteous kid. You always want other's to admit wrong but when it comes to you? ...we get this b.s. of nonesense and essays, denying your wrong. Trying to come off all righteous and then telling them it's because your supposedly spanking when no such thing occured except in your head.

Lectures such as this garbage:

"G.S. We're talking about both the crystal and Jeans "palm of the hand" feat here, if you would like to retain these points for a later dismissal by myself then be guest. Now is not the appropriate time."

It's okay when you get into people's face but then it's no applicable to you. Hypocracy and more is all you've shown.

Even though this all way off topic I just sat through and read all the posts. I have to give props to Mr. Master for sticking to his guns. He makes a statement and backs it up with scans. Kudos to Mr. Master 👆 clap

Oops same to WWK.

Have to give props to the 3 main guys in this thread: Mr. Master, WWK and GS! 😮‍💨 😮‍💨 😮‍💨 😮‍💨

Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix REPAIRED the damage to a Universe, or did she?

Which any Phoenix Avatar can do.

Show me someone holding the Univsere in palm of the hand like Phoenix.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wow...the only feat that tops a universe being REPAIRED is Thanos absorbing all the cosmics.

"(except Phoenix Force)"

And you never will see PF anywhere when the mighty powers of the Universe are involved...

Aha, but we can see such as Thor and Odin aganst THOTU, the mighty forces. Or, it is really because PF can't be destroyed. And since we didn't see THOTU doing anything to PF, we can't say THOTU can destroy it.
Wow, Mr. Master.

Originally posted by Mr Master
THOTU(power of the Supreme)can't defeat/destroy her you think.

Prove me that he can.

I read something somewhere about the mkraan incident. It was the previous universe in which it happened in also the cartoon was placed in the old universe. Some jibber jabber like that.

Blah look at my ramblings they dont even make sense.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Prove me that he can.

This question can go BOTH ways.

Can you prove that he can't? Can you prove that he can?

Originally posted by Xplosive
Show me someone holding the Univsere in palm of the hand like Phoenix.

Aha, but we can see such as Thor and Odin aganst THOTU, the mighty forces. Or, it is really because PF can't be destroyed. And since we didn't see THOTU doing anything to PF, we can't say THOTU can destroy it.
Wow, Mr. Master.

Prove me that he can.

lamentable state of events indeed... ❌

Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix REPAIRED the damage to a Universe, or did she?

Which any Phoenix Avatar can do.

Which even Gamora(a Mortal)CAN DO, with the aid of Galactus.

So from now on Xplosive add this to one of your greatest feats list.

Wow! You really are on your last legs arent you? Lol

They both repaired a universe therefore their feats are equal? 🤨

What kind of logic is this? They both repaired a universe however the scale of the problem that needed to be fixed was different in both cases. The actual method and power output required in fixing the universe was also different in both cases. This is logic of the most basic kind. On top of that whilst Phoenix fixed the actual universe itself, while she dealt with its atomic structure, all Gamora did was revive Eternity a reflection of the universe, from his catatonic state. Eternity is merely an aspect of the universe formed AFTER the universe was born. Phoenix manipulated the actual universe in its entirety. BIG DIFFERENCE lol.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wow...the only feat that tops a universe being REPAIRED is Thanos absorbing all the cosmics. hysterical

"(except Phoenix Force)"

Well actually the M’kraan crystal feat tops them both.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And you never will see PF anywhere when the mighty powers of the Universe are involved...

The only event that Phoenix has ever been involved in that threatened a universe was the Mkraan Crystal saga...An X-Men comic of course.

Which is irrelevant when they preside in the same universe. The feats Phoenix has performed have saved the entire multiverse and therefore all the abstracts featured in the big cosmic events you refer to. Giffen writer of Annihilation suggested there was a political issue in Marvel which on the most part prevented the Phoenix being used by non-X-men writers. It is a protected character. Regardless, Phoenixes feats mark it out as a premier cosmic entity so this is a redundant point.

Come again.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not on panel.

I'll give you both accounts that have been depicted ON PANEL.
If you can find me just ONE comic where this is drawn, I'll agree with you, but since I know your basing this idea on bios or handbooks I know you can't.

Tell me where if anywhere does it mention Phoenix supposedly "enabling Galen to incubate in the Cosmic Egg"....how about even JUST Saving Galactus...This is the SECOND time they depicted Galactus's Origin On Panel.

And this is the ORIGINAL depiction of Galactus's ORIGIN.

See anything different?

Yea me neither.

Look hard...and realize Phoenix is NOT even mentioned during the Galactus history lesson.

Ummmm so how does Phoenixes saving of existence from eternal damnation not equate to it enabling Galactus to be gestated in the cosmic egg? If Phoenix had not acted Galen would have been killed and there would have been no Galactus. Hence the comments in both Galactus’ and Phoenixes bios pertaining to it saving Galen enabling him to become Galactus.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Multiversal? Again NOT On Panel.

"An explosion that scatters stellar mass out across a NEW Virgin Universe"
Exactly A UNIVERSE...but NOT a Multiverse.

On Panel it's a Universal threat...

This is a more recent acknowledgment of the Mkraan's capacity.

Using a pre retcon scan to make a point about the crystals status in current continuity is a pointless exercise.

Your second scan does not mark out the crystals capacity, it says that Phoenix saved the universe when she fixed the crystal which is true. However as it was established that the crystal is a multiversal nexus and that if its power isn’t halted in one reality once it has been tampered with there, then it will eventually consume all others in a wave then your point is redundant. The crystal isn’t redefined as just a universal nexus. Phoenixes actions saw that the crystal power didn’t get to affect reality on such a scale, therefore while she first and foremost saved her universe, she ultimately saved the multiverse.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Besides the FACT that Phoenix needed 8 X-Men to help her do the job, but let's just overlook this....lol.

That isn’t the instance where Phoenix fixed the crystal in 616, neither is it the instance where she saved the multiverse from the crystals power in the previous 616-like universe. Here the crystals had been damaged beyond repair by the Dweller and as a result the crystal wiped out the previous multiverse. It’s a different circumstance. When the crystals fields have been breached beyond a certain point then nothing can stand against its power not even the Pre-retcon Beyonder. In both of the alternate instances Phoenix used the X-men as anchors whilst using her own energies to singlehandedly perform the feat.

Originally posted by Mr Master
(except for Death too, but who's counting)

Phoenix is NEVER around when reality is on the line.
Well, except for when the Mkraan Crystal is acting up....lol.

Irrelevant point that doesn’t take away from her feats or her role in Marvel creation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
THOTU(power of the Supreme)can't defeat/destroy her you think.
That's cool, let's just bring Magneto in...Yes I know this is a mere Mutant, what can he do that the Supreme Power can't?

He destroyed Jeans physical body, an event we were prepared for by the title establishing that Jean had work to do elsewhere and that it is the way of the Phoenix to die to be reborn. Jeans physical shell was destroyed that’s all and it was allowed because her presence wasn’t required in reality. Phoenix was still around, both as the ambient life force of reality and as the Consciousness in the White Hot Room.

Originally posted by Cubicks
This question can go BOTH ways.

Can you prove that he can't? Can you prove that he can?

No, actully it can't.
Advantage goes to me, why, because we didn't see THOTU destroying PF, but it did destroy Infinity, LT, Eternity, Galactus among others. So we can prove it can destroy those, but not PF.
We didn't see THOTU doing anything to PF, so, it stands as THOTU can't destroy it, because it didn't.

Originally posted by bigbran
oh, so the entire universe, is now nothing to phoenix? cause thats what fought hotu, i think we can speculate that the hotu would have crushed pheonix. weve seen her die, weve seen her get tossed by everyone, and now the hotu, cant even beat her!?!?!?! this is how far this thread has gone?

We have never seen PF destroyed.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
When the crystals fields have been breached beyond a certain point then nothing can stand against its power not even the Pre-retcon Beyonder.

I think Pre-retcon Beyonder could.
But others such as Eternity, Infinity,... nope.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Depends on which universe your talking about.

As far as I've seen the Phoenix's big bang references has only been universal and relating to the 616. Initiating the multiverse or the first universes in the MU? TOAA!!! Duh!!!

Well actually ive shown you scans from multiple realities marking out Phoenix as the initiator of said reality, so thats not true. On top of that its stated in LTs handbook entry that all realities within the multiverse possess similar hierarchical structures and the same fundamental forces. Thats what makes it a multiverse as opposed to seperate self contained universes. The New Universe for example is one such seperate universe.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Who was responsible for concepts such as life, death, infinity, ressurection, time, space, mind, soul, oblivion, existence, etc.? Who's Marvel's top being? That's right TOAA.

Such concepts come about after the birth of a universe, after life which Phoenix initiates. The abstracts are merely embodiments of universal concepts.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Whose the protector of the Multiverse?

Oh snap! The Living Tribunal, a servant of TOAA.

Who exist within TOAA's creation?

That's right kiddie. The many concepts that make up existence.

All true. I cant argue against this as it doesnt change Phoenixes role as the power that initiates the life cycle of universes. 🙂

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Now here's my question to you. Who created the Phoenix Force?

As per all things in Marvel, the supreme being presumably. 🙂

Originally posted by Xplosive
No, actully it can't.
Advantage goes to me, why, because we didn't see THOTU destroying PF, but it did destroy Infinity, LT, Eternity, Galactus among others.
So, because we didn't see, we can say THOTU can't destroy it.
We didn't see THOTU doing anything to PF, so, THOTU can't destroy it.

Thanos did not "destroy" them he "absorbed" them, subtle difference. And yes, it can go both ways. And there is no advantage either way, the absence of on panel proof of either event is the deciding factor here. You are not basing this on any facts, only absence of facts, this is a not so subtle difference.