Precisely the point.
Rampant Ox's logic is poor and simply worthless in this instance. This is one of the times where his favoritism for Dooku is becoming a hindrance to the debate at hand.
Dooku threw all he had at Yoda, who easily turned it aside. That isn't a stalemate. Yoda didn't try to attack him, save for once.
That'd be like some guy attempting to punch me three or four times, and me dodging them all. That doesn't make us equals.
Dooku is a notch or two beneath Yoda in the Force, as is Mace. Sidious is the only person in the PT who is equal to Yoda in the Force.
Yoda is also superior to Dooku in lightsaber ability, and I can argue that Palpatine would easily be able to fight with Dooku in a saber battle. He may not win, but his superior Force powers would be enough to give him a victory against his apprentice - the guy who wouldn't screw with him at all.
He dies at seven.
Originally posted by overlord
Tsk tsk tsk, Rampant Ox, Rampant Ox.. Dooku threw things to the ground by breaking them apart, Yoda catched them heavy objects. Yoda even catched a f*cking force lightning and just threw it back, sucker.
You fail miserably by trying to convince that Dooku's force powers were impressive.
The only impressive thing Yoda did with the force was catch the Counts lightning. And when the Count had the lightning flung back at him he simply deflected it to the roof. Dooku also managed to rip those massive objects off the wall and throw them at Yoda. He then ripped the roof down on top of him. Yoda blocked all of this. This makes them equal, it hardly makes Yoda superior.
However when I argue this I am only looking at the AOTC battle. Yoda is better than the Count and would usually beat him in a fight. Im just saying that in AOTC they looked extremely even, with neither having an advantage.
The only impressive thing Yoda did with the force was catch the Counts lightning.
Erm . . . no. The impressive thing that he did was handle all of Dooku's attacks with unspeakable ease. Everything that Dooku threw, Yoda raised a hand and flung it away. All of the lightning that Dooku poured at his former master was either repelled or crushed in a little green fist.
And when the Count had the lightning flung back at him he simply deflected it to the roof.
Yoda reflected it. And, then Count Dooku quickly deflects it to the roof.
Dooku also managed to rip those massive objects off the wall and throw them at Yoda. He then ripped the roof down on top of him.
Rofl. Massive. He had a hell of a time ripping debris from the roof and generators from the wall, which - by the way - a single generator that he threw at Dooku was considerably smaller than a single repulsorpod that Sidious tossed by the handfuls (thus proving that Sidious is a bound or two above Dooku in the Force).
Yoda blocked all of this.
He turned all of the attacks away from him. He only attempted to attack Count Dooku once. My point is, Yoda only made an effort to harm Dooku a single time in the Force fight. THAT is what you call "toying" with an opponent.
This makes them equal, it hardly makes Yoda superior.
No, it doesn't. Dooku had all of his attacks turned away from him. He fought with Yoda for 40 seconds in a lightsaber duel, was unable to find a single advantage - and was forced to flee in the wake of a superior opponent. Hell, if you'd like to get technical - he couldn't even break the saber lock with Yoda - nor could he fight him and escape. He had to put Obi-Wan and Anakin in danger to escape his "equal".
Basically, if we were going out of a scale of 1 - 10:
Yoda
-------
Force: 10
Saber: 10
Dooku
--------
Force: 8
Saber: 9
Yoda is firmly above Dooku in Force powers and is notably superior in sabers as well.
There's no way he could beat Yoda or Sidious in an all out fight.
Erm . . . no. The impressive thing that he did was handle all of Dooku's attacks with unspeakable ease. Everything that Dooku threw, Yoda raised a hand and flung it away. All of the lightning that Dooku poured at his former master was either repelled or crushed in a little green fist.
Yes Yoda blocked the attacks with ease. But Dooku performed the attacks with ease as well. Neither could overcome the other. This is why Dooku offered a lightsaber duel. "I see this battle can not be decided by our knowledge of the force, but by our skills with a lightsaber".
Yoda reflected it. And, then Count Dooku quickly deflects it to the roof.
Nothing worth noting there except that they once again stalemated.
Rofl. Massive. He had a hell of a time ripping debris from the roof and generators from the wall, which - by the way - a single generator that he threw at Dooku was considerably smaller than a single repulsorpod that Sidious tossed by the handfuls (thus proving that Sidious is a bound or two above Dooku in the Force).
Dooku had little trouble moving the generators. And Yoda had little trouble blocking them. They once again stalemated.
He turned all of the attacks away from him. He only attempted to attack Count Dooku once. My point is, Yoda only made an effort to harm Dooku a single time in the Force fight. THAT is what you call "toying" with an opponent.
Could that be because Yoda has little offencive force powers. He could rip things off the wall but he knew the Count would just block them. And when he did attempt to attack with force lightning the Count easily deflected it. It is because Yoda is less arrogant in thinking he could overcome Dooku with the force. Not because he was toying with him.
No, it doesn't. Dooku had all of his attacks turned away from him.
So what? If I recall yoda had all his attacks turned away from him as well.
He fought with Yoda for 40 seconds in a lightsaber duel, was unable to find a single advantage - and was forced to flee in the wake of a superior opponent.
Yoda couldnt find an advantage either can I remind you. If he could the Count would be dead. Yes im not arguing that Yoda is superior, only not by as much as you think.
Hell, if you'd like to get technical - he couldn't even break the saber lock with Yoda
Yoda couldnt break it either.
nor could he fight him and escape. He had to put Obi-Wan and Anakin in danger to escape his "equal".
True. But how are you meant to escape someone who is flinging there saber at you. Two ways. beat them, which the Count couldnt do. Or distract them which the Count did rather easily.
Basically, if we were going out of a scale of 1 - 10:
Yoda
-------
Force: 10
Saber: 10
Dooku
--------
Force: 8
Saber: 9
Yoda is firmly above Dooku in Force powers and is notably superior in sabers as well.
There's no way he could beat Yoda or Sidious in an all out fight.
I agree with that but I would put Dooku's force powers on 9 as well. Dooku wouldnt beat yoda in a fight, however Yoda isnt very far in front of Dooku in terms of strength. And the Count might beat Sids 4/10 depending on the environment.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Tell that to Jango and Nute Gunray
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dooku intended to remove the Seperatist council from power and give it to humans...he also elected to pin all the war crimes on Grievous
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Palpatine's able to square off with Yoda in a saber duel
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dooku's defenses were battered to hell by Yoda.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Anakin's wide swinging defeated the ultimate saber to saber form
Originally posted by Escape81
Erm . . . no. The impressive thing that he did was handle all of Dooku's attacks with unspeakable ease. Everything that Dooku threw, Yoda raised a hand and flung it away. All of the lightning that Dooku poured at his former master was either repelled or crushed in a little green fist.
Originally posted by Escape81
Rofl. Massive. He had a hell of a time ripping debris from the roof and generators from the wall, which - by the way - a single generator that he threw at Dooku was considerably smaller than a single repulsorpod that Sidious tossed by the handfuls (thus proving that Sidious is a bound or two above Dooku in the Force).
Originally posted by Escape81
He turned all of the attacks away from him. He only attempted to attack Count Dooku once. My point is, Yoda only made an effort to harm Dooku a single time in the Force fight. THAT is what you call "toying" with an opponent.
Originally posted by Escape81
No, it doesn't. Dooku had all of his attacks turned away from him. He fought with Yoda for 40 seconds in a lightsaber duel, was unable to find a single advantage - and was forced to flee in the wake of a superior opponent. Hell, if you'd like to get technical - he couldn't even break the saber lock with Yoda - nor could he fight him and escape. He had to put Obi-Wan and Anakin in danger to escape his "equal".
Darth Vious, if the size is irrelivent, then how come Yoda is having more trouble lifting that big tube and the X-Wing, than lifting a rock. How come all the jedi couldn't lift as massive stuff as the likes of Luke and Yoda? Size does count, I think that was just a thing for Yoda to encourage Luke, just look at how surprised and fascinated Yoda is when Luke is pulling up the X-Wing at first...
Originally posted by kamikz
Darth Vious, if the size is irrelivent, then how come Yoda is having more trouble lifting that big tube and the X-Wing, than lifting a rock.
Originally posted by kamikz
How come all the jedi couldn't lift as massive stuff as the likes of Luke and Yoda?
Originally posted by kamikz
Size does count, I think that was just a thing for Yoda to encourage Luke, just look at how surprised and fascinated Yoda is when Luke is pulling up the X-Wing at first...
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Who knows...Not all the Jedi have the same skills, or equal skills in the same areas.
I think Yoda was more encouraged that Luke was following his teachings and seemed to be succeeding. He clearly said "Size matters not" (I can't provide the full quote as I don't have ESB on DVD) but he clearly tells Luke that the size of the object doesn't make any difference. It is only different in his mind, and when Luke then gasps "I don't believe it!", Yoda replied: "That is why you failed..."
That line is obviousley flawed. There is a difference. If there wasn't then every jedi should know it, and anyone should be able to do it, but apparently, not everyone, actually very few, can do it.
In the clone wars, there were two jedi who was fighting with alot of droids. Suddenly the roof fell apart and a huge rock fell above them. They both used the force against it (instead of dodging, apparently they belived they could) but they were to weak. Luckily they weren't crushed. Later Yoda came in and lifted the rocks....
Yoda is not always right, maybe he thought that way because he seems to be able to do it (he has the highest midichlorian count except for Anakin) and over 800 years of traning. It has been shown that only the strongest jedi can move most things with their mind.
If size did not matter then why can't ANY jedi move a planet? Why could not Yoda move the death star away from Yavin? Size does matter, the only thing you have against it is Yoda's line, which I still belive is to encourage Luke. He would teach Luke to belive in himself and that was a good way to show it, but any jedi cannot move anything....
Originally posted by Darth Vious
How did Dooku lie to Jango or Gunray? The person who betrayed Gunray was Palpatine, not the Count...What's the source of that info?
ROTS novelization, Grievous's entire purpose was for a scapegoat of the war's atrocities. And Dooku planned to remove the entire council from power and give their resources to human beings
Originally posted by kamikz
That line is obviousley flawed.
Originally posted by kamikz
In the clone wars, there were two jedi who was fighting with alot of droids. Suddenly the roof fell apart and a huge rock fell above them. They both used the force against it (instead of dodging, apparently they belived they could) but they were to weak. Luckily they weren't crushed. Later Yoda came in and lifted the rocks....
Originally posted by kamikz
It has been shown that only the strongest jedi can move most things with their mind.
Originally posted by kamikz
If size did not matter then why can't ANY jedi move a planet?
Originally posted by kamikz
Why could not Yoda move the death star away from Yavin?
Originally posted by kamikz
Size does matter, the only thing you have against it is Yoda's line, which I still belive is to encourage Luke.
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Well, I'm sorry you feel that, but, it was a line in not only the original release of ESB, but also the re-mastered editions. Lucas was clearly happy with it, so I accept that as 100% canon accurate, and not open to interperetation.It could have been that there were too many individual objects for them to keep track of, not the actual weight, but, either way, they did survive the rockfall by forming it into a kind of stone 'igloo'. It could also be that by allowing the rocks to cocoon them, the Jedi were in fact protecting themselves from the droids until help arrived.
As I said before, not all Jedi have the same abilities. Some have skills in other areas to others.
Same reason as above. Also, probably because no Jedi has tried to move a planet in the movies.
Because he was nowhere near Yavin, but was living in seclusion.
I disagree. A teacher would not tell their student an incorrect technique just to encourage them to get a result, they would tell them the correct technique to begin with. As I said before, the line was in the movie, so is 100% canon and very specific, so not open to interperetation.
So the weakest jedi in history could move a planet if he wanted to? I've seen multiple occasions where a jedi has been to weak to move something even though they wanted to...
Just because it was a line in the movies doesn't mean it's right, Yoda could have been wrong. Was Anakin better than Mace Windu in AOTC because he said so?
There were no droids left in the place, they were out in the snow, the temple was abandoned. And they didn't know that they were going to get help either. Thing is that it required Yoda to save them from the rock iglo, they could not get out of there anymore. They clearly try to lift the rock but can barley levitat it over themselfs together....
Tell me, why does Yoda seem to give it all to lift that tube in AOTC? Anakin didn't seem to have a hard time lifting a fruit from Padme's plate, but Yoda seems to be killing himself while lifting that tube. Are you saying that any jedi could have done that in Yoda's position?
With this logic you are basically saying that anything is possible with the force, no matter how weak you are. Then potential wouldn't matter at all.... If size didn't matter then how come people have a harder time lifting things that are mabey only 10-20 times the size of a rock, some can't even do it.
Yoda was giving Luke a lesson to never underestimate his own strenght and never underestimate others strenght. Yoda asked him if he judged Yoda by his size. Luke doubted that he could lift it, Yoda said that the size didn't matter. He didn't say "anything can be moved", he said that the size didn't matter, he could basically be meaning just the X-Wing.
It mustn't be true either. Luke doubted it much but Yoda convinced him to do it. Why must it be true just because Yoda said so? He could have told him exactly what he needed to hear, it must not be right or wrong.