Luke's skill · Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Because, he didn't want two gomorrians yelling about an intruder.

If he had used a burst of speed, I doubt the would have seen him. Gamoreans aren't exactly quick witted.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Clone troopers are storm troopers.
Luke yells in pain when he's shot. Why would he do this if shot with an artificial hand? Answer the questions here: Why is the hand wounded? Why does Luke yell in pain? How does Luke best Vader if he;s so weak? Could any youngling best Vader who's 80 percent of Palpatine?

I answered your questons. You still have not answered mine:

What hand is Luke shot in? (left or right)
Which of Luke's hands is artificial? (left or right)
Which hand is Luke holding the lightsaber in when it is shot ? (Left or right)

Lightsnake Senior Member

And they can't make more clones...why? ROTS makes it clear: Stormies are clones.

Proof the hand has any sense of touch?

And nope, sorry, novelization said Vader could and did fight seriously because he knew his life was in danger. What do you have to counter that? canon evidence please

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And they can't make more clones...why?

Because according to one of the games, the cloning facilities were destroyed. Storm Troopers were regular Human recruits.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof the hand has any sense of touch?

Watch the scene where the hand is being grafted onto Luke's arm.
The droid uses a needle to test the feeling in his fingers and palm. If I recall, he actually says "Oww" when it pokes his palm. Do you now accept that Luke was shot in his artificial hand by the guard?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And nope, sorry, novelization said Vader could and did fight seriously because he knew his life was in danger. What do you have to counter that? canon evidence please

Canon evidence is that Vader could not kill his own son. I think the novelisation makes reference to that as well.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Fine, he's shot in the artificial hand.

Oh and Vader can't kill Luke...which is why he keeps saying Luke'll die if he doesn't join them and chucks a saber at him?

And oooh, sorry, game's not canon! Oh, there were multiple cloning facilities

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fine, he's shot in the artificial hand.

Which is why he was able to hold onto his lightsaber. If he had been shot in his organic hand, he would have dropped it. Which brings me onto the other point: He was taken totally by surprize and shot in the hand (doesn't necessarily matter that it was artificial for this point) by a non-Force Sensitive Human Guard. Where in any of the movies has that happened to another Jedi?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh and Vader can't kill Luke...which is why he keeps saying Luke'll die if he doesn't join them and chucks a saber at him?

No, Vader couldn't kill Luke. He keeps saying that Luke will die if he doesn't join them, because Vader knows that if Luke does not turn, then Palpatine will kill Luke. (which ultimately, he tried to do, and would have succeeded in where it not for Vader's intervention)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And oooh, sorry, game's not canon!

Fair enough. That doesn't change the fact that Storm Troopers were human conscriptees, not cloned troops.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Many of the Jedi were shot by non-force sensitives...point is, Luke DIDN'T drop his saber and was fighting a small army.

Sorry, let's see you PROVE that the stormies were conscriptees...according to Lucas and EU there were recruitment centers and cloning facilities still open.

Once more: Vader chucks a saber at Luke with intend to take his head off

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Many of the Jedi were shot by non-force sensitives...

Who? Please be specific to the movies.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
point is, Luke DIDN'T drop his saber

Why didn't Luke drop his saber?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
was fighting a small army.

There were maybe a dozen guards on the barge, that hardly constitutes an army. Also, that brings back the original question. Are you suggesting that Jabba's guards were as well trained as Clone Troopers?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sorry, let's see you PROVE that the stormies were conscriptees...according to Lucas and EU there were recruitment centers and cloning facilities still open.

wikipedia
During the time of the Galactic Civil War and the Battle of Yavin, Fett's clones were still used by the Empire, although Fett's progeny were heavily supplemented with clones from new DNA sources and troopers recruited in the traditional manner.

Either way, they were still not the original Clone Troopers.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Once more: Vader chucks a saber at Luke with intend to take his head off

Vader was trying to provoke Luke into fighting. As I said before, Vader did not want to kill Luke, but knew that Palpatine would kill Luke if he did not turn to the Dark Side. (and as I said before, he would have killed him had Vader not intervened)

Back in 2 hours...

Lightsnake Senior Member

Ki-Adi. Zett. Plo. Aayla...

BEcause Luke's good, plain and simple.

Jabba surrounds himself with the elite of the underworld, yep, they're good.

Sorry, Wiki's not canon! And they're still clones.

And you don't provoke someone by chucking a saber at them

Pyro Tyrannus "Nerd maker funner of-er"

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Who? Please be specific to the movies.
Why didn't Luke drop his saber?
There were maybe a dozen guards on the barge, that hardly constitutes an army. Also, that brings back the original question. Are you suggesting that Jabba's guards were as well trained as Clone Troopers?
Either way, they were still not the original Clone Troopers.
Vader was trying to provoke Luke into fighting. As I said before, Vader did not want to kill Luke, but knew that Palpatine would kill Luke if he did not turn to the Dark Side. (and as I said before, he would have killed him had Vader not intervened)
Back in 2 hours...

I musty disagree. Vader was trying to kill Luke plain and simple. WHo throws a lightsaber without the intent to harm the target? Luke kicked Vader's ass.

Razielim KGB

The whole point of the film was that Vader wanted to die for Luke.

Vader trying his hardest against Luke? LOL. He wasn't even putting up a fight. He was just backing away, ducking and occasionally blocking.

This Dark Lord of the Sith must suck quite a bit if he conventionally lost to a farm boy swinging a saber like a baseball bat.

Lightsnake Senior Member

That 'boy' was stated to have achieved the level of Jedi knight and was able to stand on even ground with a Sith lord several times.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ki-Adi. Zett. Plo. Aayla...

Neither Plo nor Aayla were able to defend themselves from the Clones that attacked them. Yoda pre-empted the Clone's attack (possibly heard them) but Ki-Adi and Zett were the only ones who actually realized that they were going to be attacked and defended themselves (if only for a few seconds)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
BEcause Luke's good, plain and simple.

No, the reason why Luke didn't drop his lightsaber, is because his hand was artificial. If it had been an organic hand, he would have dropped it.

Either way, it still does not change the fact that he was taken by surprize by a non-Force Sensitive Human Guard. That never happened to any of the PT Jedi on screen.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Jabba surrounds himself with the elite of the underworld, yep, they're good.

The elite of the underworld... You're sure? You're absolutely certain that Jabba's guards where the best?
Okay, explain this:

It would appear that Jabba needs to start reviewing his recruitment and selection process, if he is indeed, to be surrounded by the 'elite of the underworld'...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sorry, Wiki's not canon! And they're still clones.

Okay, even if the Storm Troopers are clones, they are clearly not as well trained as the Clone Troopers.
Could you see ARCs getting WTFpwned by Ewoks?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And you don't provoke someone by chucking a saber at them

How do you know what it would take to provoke someone to fight if you knew their life depended on it?

Lightsnake Senior Member

Yoda sensed them and put two and two together. And Ki only realized it because they were pointing guns at him

Except most Jedi were taken by surprise...and proof Luke would've dropped his saber? OH right there's none

image ain't showing up

ARCS exist? Movie evidence
What? you don't chuck a saber at someone after telling them it's 'turn or die' unless you intend to kill them

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That 'boy' was stated to have achieved the level of Jedi knight

According to Yoda in RotJ, Luke would not be a Jedi untill he faced Vader. Luke would not have 'qualified' as a Jedi, until he was dragging Anakin across the hangar bay...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and was able to stand on even ground with a Sith lord several times.

Several times? When did Luke duel Vader at any time other than ESB? When he did duel Vader in ESB, he was clearly on such 'even ground' that this happened:

Lightsnake Senior Member

ESB, Splinter of the Mind's Eye....ROTJ...you were saying?

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda sensed them and put two and two together. And Ki only realized it because they were pointing guns at him

Yoda didn't sense them, because there was nothing for the Jedi to sense. The Clones were conditioned to follow any order without question. They were following a legitimate order from their commander in chief (Palpatine) so there was no hostile or malicioius intentions for the Jedi to detect, and that is why they were all (mostly) taken by surprise.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except most Jedi were taken by surprise

See above answer to explain why they were taken by surprize. Jabba's guard, on the other hand, would have been quite detectable in his intentions. (Certainly by a better trained Jedi)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and proof Luke would've dropped his saber?

Do you seriously think he would have been able to keep hold of the saber if he had been holding it in an organic hand that was hit by a blaster bold?

Originally posted by Lightsnake

image ain't showing up

F*cking Angelfire.... I wasn't sure if it would show up, but it appeared on my screen, but never mind... Proof that Jabba's minions are not the 'elite of the underworld'...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
ARCS exist? Movie evidence

I'm sure they appear in RotS, if not, then can you imagine regular Clone Troops getting WTFpwned by Ewoks?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What? you don't chuck a saber at someone after telling them it's 'turn or die' unless you intend to kill them

And how would you know? How do you know what would provoke someone into fighting. Vader tried several different tactics to get Luke to fight.
[Edit to fix link]

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
ESB, Splinter of the Mind's Eye....ROTJ...you were saying?

Splinter of the Mind's Eye, are you f*cking serious??!! That book barely qualifies as EU anymore, let alone evidence of anything (other than Luke's incestuous feelings towards Leia) Let's be very clear here, the only time Luke fought Vader on screen prior to RotJ was at the end of ESB, and this is what happened:

Not exactly what I would call 'evenly matched'. Try again.

Lightsnake Senior Member

ROTJ, then. And Splinter of the Mind's Eye is EU, thanks. The part about Luke dueling Vader most certainly is.

And Lando is Lando, he's an elite of anything. With his connections and two years...

The Jedi were surprised, get over it. Yoda sensed the deaths of the others and puts two and two together

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
ROTJ, then. And Splinter of the Mind's Eye is EU, thanks. The part about Luke dueling Vader most certainly is.

So parts of Splinter are EU and some aren't? If Luke duelling Vader is accepted, then what about the part where he has to restrain himself from kissing Leia while she's asleep? Or the attraction he has towards her regardless of his restraint?
In RotJ, Luke was on a more even footing than he was previously, but, that still does not change the fact that he swung his lightsaber like a baseball bat and hit the surrounding pipes more than Vader's blade. He is hardly the greatest swordsman in the history of lightsaber duellists.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Jedi were surprised, get over it. Yoda sensed the deaths of the others and puts two and two together

I'm not denying that the Jedi were surprized. That is clear. I was just pointing out the reason they were surprized.
Look at the scene on Geonosis between Jango and Mace. Did Jango actually pose any danger to Mace or did Mace take him down as if he were armed with a water pistol? Could you seeing one of Jabba's minions shooting the lightsaber had of Mace? Or Anakin? Or Obi-Wan? or Ki-Adi? I could go on... Fact was Luke was only taken by surprize by an everyday Human, is because when it comes to being a Jedi, he is not the most skilled.