Phoenix Force vs a Multiversal Power......Phoenix get's Crushed!

Originally posted by Mr Master
I Never said the IG affected an area outside the multiverse. And JLA universe in not our multiverse.

He wasn't even real. But what's your pick on the IG? an Incomplete Infinity Gauntlet controlled the energies of the Ultimate Nullifier..and you know what that can do..you do remeber that from scans don't you..

Here Quasar tries to use the UN on Magus who has an Incomplete Infinity Gauntlet...Quasar was actually able to set it off, the same device Reed wiped out and remade the Multiverse with. and Magus controlled those energies and negated Quasar with them. Absolute control..they engulf Quasar evenly.

of course he was real . . . 😕 it seems meph convinced thanos it never happened, or malestrom had the power to make him forget. malestrom battled quasar and visited quite a few cosmics, laughing in their faces as he did to thanos.

anyway, again about the ig. IF as you claim it is truly multiversal, then how is it that thanos evolved from it to becoming eternity?

he has "shed all vulnerability". so apparently his new station is an 'improvement' over the ig . . . he also assumed the position as "center of all reality of THIS SPHERE."

again, a pretty clear case of the ultimate expression of the ig wielder being only universal in scope of power. 😬

Originally posted by Mr Master
The problem is you don't know what the Multiverse looks like from the inside.
You think it's just space and one universe transitions into another...but in fact, though the Multiverse can manifest itself as a whole...it exists apart from it's individual Universes with in the Cosmic Vortex.
Obviously this does not affect the relationship between aspect and totality.

See those little purple balls, thats where atleza is..and every little purple ball is the domain of the anchor...Yes...very much outside the Multiverse...the Multiverse are the Bigger balls obviously...untouched by space or time


First Warlock is allowed to enter this place...the Cosmic Vortex.

Now observe Warlock navigating this realm in--between Universes.

I would like to read that series myself, title and issue?
By the way I had the awe-inspiring 'multi-eternity' beneath IG and UN and Abraxas and Multi-Death. So.. I don't know what your point.

i see where you're going with the first bit, but i still don't see any reference to 'multiverse' in my scans. it was all 'universe'. you were sort of taking gs to task for his scans not saying multiverse, but none of the hotu scans say anything more than universe . . . unless i've missed one, which is possible . . . 😕

as far as the defenders: there's irony there. the issue i pulled my scan from was #3 of the recent defenders ltd series. ironically, your avatar is the COVER to said issue! 😄 and it really did throw a wet towel on all sorts of continuity . . . 🙁

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It's pretty clear they're referring to universe singular. 😬

How'd you make that leap in logic?
Had to be done at the moment of alignment. I recall it was more something to do with that particular location creating a lot of energy at alignment.

i'm curious why you think a single universe? they were in GALEN'S universe and the pf did not save his universe. are you saying the pf saved the 'yet-to-be-born' universe? is that the single universe you're thinking of? but why 'all existence'? 😕

i'm just saying that could be interpretted to mean different things. i think it was intentionally made to be vague. 😬

even allowing for the alignment effect, it is still affecting the multiverse -- ie -- the pf CAN be extended throughout the multiverse, even though special conditions may need to exist in order to allow it to do so. still no small feat. 🙂

and let me reiterate -- i am NOT defending gs's stance on the pf. at best i remain skeptical of its exact nature and place in the ultimate hierarchy.

Originally posted by leonidas
of course he was real . . . 😕 it seems meph convinced thanos it never happened, or malestrom had the power to make him forget. (or, more likely still, thanos just refused to believe he existed as that would mean something existed outside his influence) malestrom battled quasar and visited quite a few cosmics, laughing in their faces as he did to thanos.

anyway, again about the ig. IF as you claim it is truly multiversal, then how is it that thanos evolved from it to becoming eternity?

he has "shed all vulnerability". so apparently his new station is an 'improvement' over the ig . . . he also assumed the position as "center of all reality of THIS SPHERE."

again, a pretty clear case of the ultimate expression of the ig wielder being only universal in scope of power. 😬

oops, sorry. i meant to EDIT the above post, but must have hit QUOTE . . . anyway, the post HAS been edited in the box above . . . 😮

I have never claimed that Phoenix Force is greater than LT.

But I do know it's a multiversal force of creation 🙂

Mr Master great job with all the scans and yall.

But most of those facts have already been debated.

Korvac was one peace of PIS induce character........ In fact even the Silver Surfer has defeated him.

As for LT i have said it and will said it again is greater than the PF that opinion has yet to change.

But PF is next to LT 🙂

as for PF creating Galactus...it's been crealy shown PF was the force behind that.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm curious why you think a single universe? they were in GALEN'S universe and the pf did not save his universe. are you saying the pf saved the 'yet-to-be-born' universe? is that the single universe you're thinking of? but why 'all existence'? 😕

i'm just saying that could be interpretted to mean different things. i think it was intentionally made to be vague. 😬

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Originally posted by leonidas
even allowing for the alignment effect, it is still affecting the multiverse -- ie -- the pf CAN be extended throughout the multiverse, even though special conditions may need to exist in order to allow it to do so. still no small feat. 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
and let me reiterate -- i am NOT defending gs's stance on the pf. at best i remain skeptical of its exact nature and place in the ultimate hierarchy.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
"The Phoenix Force is a child of the universe." not multiverse. "In the dying moments of the previous universe" not multiverse. Very recently an equal and opposite universal force is described.

Neither is breaching the dimensional barriers into Otherworld and beyond. 😖hifty:
On a side note, something I don't get about the forest fire, flood and avalanche analogies. What exactly is the fire, water or snow respectively?
Roma ftw!

hmm, interesting. your scans are the reason why this will never get settled. the hierarchy is in continual flux.

anyway to your point about 'universe'. if a universal aspect of the pf exists in each universe, and if its power can be used to affect the multiverse as a whole, wouldn't that classify it as multiversal? its sort of rhetorical because you have the ultimate arbiter in your corner in the form of the handbook. still, the pf seems to be something a little more than simply a universal force. but . . . i still don't get the reference to 'all existence' when that existence ended. and how did the pf know in advance that galen was going to play such a huge role in the next universe if it was only bound to its own universe?

btw -- nice job of keeping the essays out of the debate!! 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, interesting. your scans are the reason why this will never get settled. the hierarchy is in continual flux.

anyway to your point about 'universe'. if a universal aspect of the pf exists in each universe, and if its power can be used to affect the multiverse as a whole, wouldn't that classify it as multiversal? its sort of rhetorical because you have the ultimate arbiter in your corner in the form of the handbook. still, the pf seems to be something a little more than simply a universal force. but . . . i still don't get the reference to 'all existence' when that existence ended. and how did the pf know in advance that galen was going to play such a huge role in the next universe if it was only bound to its own universe?

btw -- nice job of keeping the essays out of the debate!! 🙂

I read and write enough essays off these forums... I really don't need them here as well. Besides who really has time for longwinded essays 😖hifty:.

Has Pheonix actually battled high end entities or are all the good feats due to it's importance and knowledge? 'Cause there's been a lot of scans of Pheonix-beings/wielders/whatever I've seen around in my time on the forum, of them getting beat by by Earth people and stuff. And I don't think I've actually seen her take on someone like Galactus, Odin, etc.

EDIT.

Originally posted by kgkg
I have never claimed that Phoenix Force is greater than LT.

But I do know it's a multiversal force of creation 🙂

Mr Master great job with all the scans and yall.

But most of those facts have already been debated.

Korvac was one peace of PIS induce character........ In fact even the Silver Surfer has defeated him.

As for LT i have said it and will said it again is greater than the PF that opinion has yet to change.

But PF is next to LT 🙂

as for PF creating Galactus...it's been crealy shown PF was the force behind that.

It is true that the Pheonix Force is behind the creation of Galactus, she preserved Galan and the Cosmic Egg that lead to his creation, not to mention bringing Eternity to the next born universe...

That has been clearly stated in the Marvel Handbook scans...

However, whether or not the PF is multiversal, I have yet to see proof.

And no matter WHAT the case of Pheonix Force, it is DEFINATELY below Infinity Gauntlet. Nice job GalacticStorm, but ❌

Originally posted by Juntai
Has Pheonix actually battled high end entities or are all the good feats due to it's importance and knowledge? 'Cause there's been a lot of scans of Pheonix-beings/wielders/whatever I've seen around in my time on the forum, of them getting beat by by Earth people and stuff. And I don't think I've actually seen her take on someone like Galactus, Odin, etc.

she has taken on galactus in a what if, and in excalibur she confronted him. the what if book was rather inconclusive but she seemed to get the better of him and she was new to the power. unltimately, she consumed the universe itself at the end.
phoenix also confronted him again at one point i believe, (in continuity) and again in that instance i BELIEVE she was shown to have been getting the better of him in another inconclusive fight.

in excalibur, galactus wanted to drain the pf from rachel, but quickly discovered that if he did so he would kill all life in the universe and the universe would become a lifeless void. pf is linked intimately to life and creation. no pf, no life.

in guardians of the galaxy the pf overcame a universal plague and healed eternity -- a task even eternity itself could not accomplish. but the pf's poor showings are extremely difficult to overlook. in nearly the same book giraud (the phoenix of gotg timeline) was unable to defeat dormammu and when it went up against the (apparently?) multiversal entity named ubiquitor, the pf needed the help of that era's thor and mjollnir to defeat ubiq. the pf was in the midst of being overpowered when thor came on the scene and the pf and mjolnir combined to beat her.

in a non-canon xover, it seemed to be analagous to the source and was powerful enough -- in fragmented form -- to place darkseid in the wall at the end.

the force was also wounded in the ultraverse when it was brought there for a short time. i'd actually thought that incident NON-canon, but it is referred to in the handbook.

there are many other 'defeats' or 'lesser' showings (xorn et al.,) that many have mentioned in various threads and that have always cast doubt on the pf's true level of power in the eyes of a lot of people. 😬

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It is true that the Pheonix Force is behind the creation of Galactus, she preserved Galan and the Cosmic Egg that lead to his creation, not to mention bringing Eternity to the next born universe...

That has been clearly stated in the Marvel Handbook scans...

However, whether or not the PF is multiversal, I have yet to see proof.

And no matter WHAT the case of Pheonix Force, it is DEFINATELY below Infinity Gauntlet. Nice job GalacticStorm, but ❌

i'm curious, LU:

1. what would YOU consider to be a demonstration of a multiversal level of power and WHO have you seen exhibit such a thing (NOT counting pre-retcon beyonder . . .)?

2. why are you so certain the ig>pf?

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
I don't mean to be a smart-ass Mr. M, but....

Dude i just notice that point with the subconscious....and err 😐 ....you know, subconcious refers to a state of mind, you know, like dreams, etc.

Dismiss that scan...it's useless. He was talking about Thanos in that one...I wasn't seeing that right. 🙁

Originally posted by Mr Master
Oh we're going to see who is presenting scans falsely my friend. I'm going to make you swallow that accusation.

I did look it up.
And with on panel proof we're going to see what is considered "Godhood"?
To YOU...Godhood is temporary omniscience, nothing more.

To Marvel Godhood is this:
Godhood means to have power over all that is in the universe-Thanos(IG)

If you won't take Thanos's word for it, perhaps UATU's will suffice.

Nope. 😉 In some cases godhood has meant those things. In some it hasnt. To try and claim it means the same thing across the board is somewhat naive. Regardless if you were to have a lil look at the new LT bio youre getting so worked up over you would see that as per my interpretation it states that LT made SS one with the universe. He did not as per your ridiculous claims :

a) create a new reality
b) turn SS into a universe

😂

Originally posted by Mr Master
Evidently I did, as I always knew I had.
Finally the New Living Tribunal bio is here and there it clarifies for us that indeed, "LT's power serpassed that of Gems."
Ofcourse I already said this but you bone heads were to stubborn to except this.

It does indeed say that. However if you were to go other to Comicxfan the site of the Official Handbook makers you could have a lil convo with them and you would find out that the handbooks are a guideline to continuity. They do not equate to continuity. They can and do get things wrong which is why they have threads dedicated to dealing with published errors. I have actually brought up the point about LT and the gems and thats exactly what i was told. 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
LT said he represents power that dwarfs the IG
Warlock acknowledge that LT serves someone beyond the IG
And the bio say's it too. -------- Now what!

LT said it.

Warlock said it.

Living Tirbunal's bio says it.
http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltbio6iy.jpg

And your point is? 😕 LTs master is allegedly a power greater than the IGs. Whether thats true or not nothing was stated or depicted regarding LTs superiority to the gems so thats a bit of a moot point im afraid. Galactus' heralds represent a power greater than most cosmic beings in the universe, does that mean that they themselves are greater than most cosmic beings in the universe? 😕

Originally posted by Mr Master
"Wanda's tamperings were flat out stated to have breached causality. You are warping that which caused the Chaos wave and making a false analogy. Her tamperings breached causality and sent out that wave.

Roma actually states that it is a, and let me allcaps it for you, since apparently you like to ignore things when they prove you wrong

TRANSTEMPORAL TSUNAMI, ORIGINATING FROM EARTH 616

That is what Wanda, caused from the sheer power she was hurling around like a crazy person.

once again, note the word ORIGINATING

That's the Chaos Wave that breached causality. Congrats on yet again warping evidence." anonymous cameo...

Please read the above scan with care. Does it say that Wanda generated and maintained the chaos wave? Does it not state that a global alteration has breached the walls of causality? Does Roma not state that sealing the breach would put an end to the problem? Does that not suggest therefore that the breach itself is the cause for the trans temporal tsunami?

Wandas warping of Earth 616, unwittingly to her resulted in a tear in one of the walls separating realities. The chaos wave therefore is either a spillover of Wandas reality warp into other dimensions or it is a violent reaction to the tear itself. Legions manipulations of time/space in Legion Quest similarly resulted in a tear in the dimensional walls which also sparked off a wave which threatened to collapse the multiverse if left unchecked:

(One of the above scans also debuted the new status of the M’kraan crystal. Which is something very important and Phoenix related that I’ll revisit later on 😉 )

Back to Wanda. The funny thing with both possibilities, is that in both cases neither is a feat for Wanda. Neither is something she could necessarily achieve with a direct application of her power or at least she has been shown to be able to do so. A spillover of her energies into another reality is completely different to Wanda consciously generating and directing a wave of destruction across various realities of the multiverse. The former requires no additional effort. Tearing a hole in the fabric of reality resulting in the chaos wave is not a feat for Wanda. Its something her powers acted as a catalyst for. In that case the chaos wave would have nothing to do with Wandas powers and would be irrelevant as a reference to Wandas power level. Talking about power level, please notice how Roma the omniversal majestrix who surveys all realities noted that the scale of the reality warp was “GLOBAL”. It would seem that Wanda warped only Earth 616 and with no reference anywhere else in any title pertaining to the scale of Wandas reality warp, that is all we have to go by.

Also in House of M #7 Wanda claimed this apparently “global alteration” to be beyond her ability to control, to be something she required aid to pull off and therefore we have a reference point for Wandas range and her limits.

No GS, it's over.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This should of looked like this:

It's not the first time Death survives when the most powerful beings in the universe are being killed.
Here Death protects herself and Starfox and Nebula from utter destruction.
And THIS TIME his power with the IG, was applied to her(because she attacked him with the others)and the rest that were there.
Only Death survived, along with those she rescued.


thank you...

Youre being rather selective with your scans here my friend. Would you care to post the whole scene as opposed to a little snippet. If i recall correctly at that specific point in which your scan comes from Thanos was battling other cosmic beings. His power wasnt being directly applied to Death she just protected herself and the others from the feedoff coming from said battle. Irrelevant.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Interesting...
In the Korvac What if issue that you so proudly always brought up, Death and her machinations resulted in the death of Eternity(the single universe version)and she screamed in joy at the end.

But as Deaths power directly didnt result in Eternitys demise thats a bit of a moot point im afraid.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Here the Watcher nor Eternity(single universe)himself could perceive the "Goddess's intentions.
Only Death was able, don't underestimate Death.

Death will always be last, for as long as there is life there must be death.

And yet, one instance where Death has been shown to be able to sense something before Eternity does doesnt equate to Death being greater than Eternity.

In the Infinity Gauntlet mini where Thanos has the Gauntlet its actually stated that Eternity is the greatest of the abstracts. Plus while Thanos faces an assemblage of the other cosmic beings (including Death 😖hifty: ) Thanos faces Eternity alone.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I will prove this to be WRONG!
This phrase, "All THAT IS"... is thrown around quite a bit, especially when refering to JUST Universes. Like most of your Phoenix feats, I'll get to that in a minute.

Now,
You say Thanos merely absorbed 616 reality, first, I don't know where you got that from, but according to Thanos he was Omni-Reality with THOU.

Irrelevant:

You see that? The end of what? How did the what come to and end? SHHHH!!! 😎

Originally posted by Mr Master
Whatever.
Magus takes possession of the IG many universes away(outside 616)

Magus remakes the universe in his image from universes away(outside 616)

Warlock remakes the universe back to it's original form, from universes away(outside 616)

And yet according to the Handbook the Infinity Gauntlet derives its power from the Big Bang

which we all know is a manifestation of:
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7509292924.jpg&s=x11

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7509330349.jpg&s=x11

😱

[QUOTE=6808102]Originally posted by Mr Master
[B] So many Big Bangs!
Do you mean this one?
Infinity Being created Mephisto and Every demon

Infinity being was the big bang of creation

Yes, Infinity being was the big bang of the universe

And Mephisto seems to agree

That hasnt been the case for many years. Since then as i have shown many times on this board in various scans Phoenix is stated to be the energies of creation, it is said to manifest as the Big Bang, so unlucky mate. Have you not heard of a retcon? You must of MM, its the thing which ensured your beloved Beyonder got his transgender ass messed up this month:

Ouch! 😄